IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-11-18
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00:00:00 <fjb> nfo has some really unpleasant features...
00:02:53 <Gonozal_VIII> you could just draw nice sprites and ask somebody else to do the coding part :-)
00:03:49 <Gonozal_VIII> " if I could draw better." <-- sorry, didn't see that^^
00:03:54 <fjb> I'm not good at drawing yet. And I'm thinking that writing hex codes is really archaic.
00:05:31 <Gonozal_VIII> does it work to take a rl picture, scale it down to sprite size and colors, manually fix some off pixel and you're done?
00:06:46 <fjb> No, it really isn't that easy if it should be looking nice.
00:07:05 <Rubidium> fjb: then what format do you suggest and why?
00:10:56 <fjb> Rubidium: the nfo interpretor looks like a strange kind of virtual machine. So it is ok to feed it with machine code. But nobody today would write anything serious using machine code. They use assembler as the lowest level.
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00:12:08 <fjb> At first sight it should be easy to implement a kind of assembler for nfo. But nfo has some unpleasant features like the self modifying code of action 6.
00:12:46 <glx> that's a powerfull feature
00:14:58 <fjb> nfo has variables (kind of the registers of the virtual machine). Why must it modify the next opcode istaed of storing the value in one of that variables?
00:17:37 <Rubidium> because a lot of stuff doesn't work with variables
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00:18:37 <Gonozal_VIII> it modifies itself? but what if it gains intelligence, starts to control our pcs and then wants to rule the world? :O
00:19:22 <fjb> Self modifying code is nothing new. It was a bad habit in ancient times of programming. It is really hard to debug.
00:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> then a cyborg from the future comes and tries to save it
00:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> and anonther one who tries to stop the saving
00:20:13 <Gonozal_VIII> turing machines didn't take over the world.. but newgrfs will!
00:20:22 <Rubidium> fjb: I would rather have selfmodifying code than the same large set of sprites multiple times
00:22:23 <fjb> Why should self modifying code be the only solution to prevent multiple identical sprites?
00:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> you could do pointher arithmetics instead... but that is not much better...
00:23:44 <Rubidium> fjb: maybe it isn't when you design a language, but now it has it, it is useful for primarily backward compatability cases
00:23:56 <fjb> Pointer arithmetics is a lot better at the machine code or assembler level.
00:25:05 <fjb> Rubidium: But it prevents (or at least makes really hard) the forward step to an assembler or even a higher level language.
00:26:23 <Rubidium> but then one could also write the assembler in such a way that you only give it the 'new' way of doing it and it automatically adds all crap needed for backwards compatability.
00:26:46 <fjb> And at least assembler is needed badly. There are many skilled people out there who could do nfo programming then.
00:27:13 <fjb> No xml for programming, please.
00:28:39 <Rubidium> hmm... a self-modifying xml programming language
00:28:41 <fjb> i368 opcodes and even assembler is ugly, but nfo is far more ugly. Nobody cares when there is a higher level language.
00:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> i still have no idea what xml is useful for
00:29:09 <fjb> Xml ist usefull for markups. :-)
00:29:45 <Belugas> xml is good for exchanging informations between two programs too
00:30:09 <fjb> Sacro: that is a kind of markup...
00:30:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Rubidium
00:30:25 <Belugas> xml starts to get used oftenly in the payment processing "industry"
00:30:37 *** Sacro was kicked by Rubidium (enforcing the closing tag ;))
00:31:15 *** Rubidium sets mode: -o Rubidium
00:31:32 <Rubidium> something with missing opening tag...
00:32:36 <fjb> Not only the opening tag...
00:58:37 <fjb> I love the automatic foundations. Were they in TTD?
01:00:00 <fjb> Does the patch have them?
01:00:44 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know as i don't play patch but i guess yes
01:01:50 <fjb> I also never played the patch. Maybe it would work with my new wine installation.
01:03:53 <fjb> Thank you. PBS would be better, but at least it works without them.
01:04:44 <Gonozal_VIII> pbs wouldn't help that much there, every second train could leave while the next one enters but that's it
01:06:00 <fjb> But the trains tend to choose neighbouring platforms...
01:07:19 <fjb> I designed that station entry/exit to be small and halfway efficient.
01:07:54 <Gonozal_VIII> the way they choose their path was quite annoying when i used pbs in miniin
01:08:15 <Gonozal_VIII> they often blockt much more then they needed to
01:09:03 <Gonozal_VIII> routemarkers could help with that i guess
01:09:27 <fjb> Hm, I don't like the current route markers that much.
01:10:23 <fjb> They should be more like the restricting signals of TTDP. But please don't make them signals.
01:10:30 <Gonozal_VIII> in combination with pbs it could let the trains prefer the path that blocks the least other paths for example
01:11:13 <Gonozal_VIII> how do restricting signals work?
01:12:48 <fjb> They are signals which can react on several parameters of the train, it's lenght, weight, freigt and so on.
01:14:13 <Gonozal_VIII> so basically it's the same as routemarkers but you don't have to assign colors to the trains?
01:15:49 <fjb> Kind of. They don't just give a negative penalty to the path finder, they block the train. Ok, that is a kind of final restriction to the pathfinder. :-)
01:16:16 <fjb> But they can differentiate much more than a few colours could.
01:16:24 <Gonozal_VIII> no i don't like the blocking part.. you can get that with waypoints too
01:16:57 <Gonozal_VIII> i like it better to give them a path they prefer but with the option to take another one
01:17:26 <fjb> I would like some thing like the route markers, with the flexibility of the restricting signals and with a better marker than a big mushroom. :-)
01:18:12 <fjb> Maybe it could also be implemented for road vehicles.
01:20:48 <Gonozal_VIII> for road vehicles a more important thing would be to give them a better way of selecting an empty bay at a multi bay station
01:22:07 <Gonozal_VIII> they only use one side of the drive through and sometimes they don't even split up but line up at a single bay instead
01:23:02 <fjb> Sometimes they are using both sides, depending how they can reach the bay from the other side.
01:23:59 <Gonozal_VIII> i only got them to use the other side temporarly through switching between pathfinders because one preferred left and the other right
01:30:00 <fjb> When you are looking at "Steinfurt an der Spree Mine" you can see two truck wayting facing one direction and behind the factory is one truck leaving facing the other direction.
01:30:42 <Gonozal_VIII> and they do that on a regular basis?
01:31:30 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm maybe something got changed since i last tested it
01:31:33 <fjb> Most of the time they do.
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01:31:54 <fjb> Sometimes they don't do it, but most of the time they do.
01:37:20 <fjb> I killd a whole wood and the town still loves me. :-)
01:42:22 <Gonozal_VIII> nope... they don't take the other side
01:43:33 <fjb> Hm, strange, do you have a picture of it?
01:45:17 <Gonozal_VIII> no i already reverted most of the changes to the station layout
01:46:30 <Gonozal_VIII> but i try to dublicate your layout
01:47:17 <fjb> The path to the other entry of the truck stop must not be too long.
01:47:35 <Gonozal_VIII> i made them same length
01:50:25 <fjb> Maybe they won't go to both sides when they go to that truck stop for the first time.
01:53:17 <Gonozal_VIII> wow they use both sides
01:53:39 <Gonozal_VIII> your layout seems to be good..
01:54:45 <Gonozal_VIII> but i hope it doesn't only work for a potash mine with a road around it that gets served by ford ts
01:57:25 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe the other player is asking why i build such useless lines
01:58:05 <fjb> No, it works for every thing.
01:58:27 <fjb> I tend to bouild circles around all kind of mines and factories.
01:58:48 <fjb> You can do kind of load balancing that way.
01:59:04 <Gonozal_VIII> so they don't use both if the paths are same length but they do with one path being longer?
01:59:31 <fjb> And you can easily build stations on both sides, one to deliver things there and one to fetch the products there.
02:00:00 <fjb> They even do with one path a bit longer, but not that much longer.
02:00:32 <fjb> Just try it and you get a feeling when it works and when not.
02:04:19 <Gonozal_VIII> the 4 tile square seems to be good for that
02:07:22 <fjb> I had it working with lager structures.
02:08:04 <Gonozal_VIII> i always tried to keep it symmetrical but then they don't choose
02:12:48 <fjb> Or don'T build the path around the factory, build a circle beside it.
02:13:51 <Gonozal_VIII> already tried that, it doesn't matter where the circle is, they take both ways
02:14:02 <Gonozal_VIII> nice to know that :-)
02:15:30 <fjb> I like to experiment, so I found that.
02:17:09 <fjb> I guess I would not be good at at coop game because of my sometimes starnge layouts.
02:17:58 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Did you tell the other player why you are building strange circles? :-)
02:18:50 <Gonozal_VIII> but he was quite busy building a limestone line so he didn't say much
02:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> what exactly is a limestone?
02:28:58 <Gonozal_VIII> that's the stuff a lime quarry produces :-)
02:29:42 <Gonozal_VIII> Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed largely of the mineral calcite (calcium carbonate: CaCO3).
02:30:32 <Gonozal_VIII> makes sense to carry it to cement works then :-)
02:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> but that picture shows really well how out of scale the industries are
02:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> compare the size and distance of the windows of the brewery with the one of the mine
02:33:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a glass work
02:33:51 <Gonozal_VIII> there's no glass works either
02:33:54 <fjb> It's a plain factory. You mean the thing next to the station.
02:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> in the previous picture
02:35:05 <Gonozal_VIII> the vectors are not finished so i guess that will change... the vehicle factory already did change a lot
02:35:35 <fjb> But it's getting better. I guess he didn't care that much when making the graphics. Some others already got replaces in the latest versions.
02:35:58 <fjb> The new vehicle factory is great.
02:37:48 <Gonozal_VIII> i was experimenting with what you call "elevated tracks" too some time ago to make a double mainline where a branch can enter both lines easily but it didn't work too well back then without diagonal rail under bridges
02:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> i occasionally miss diagonal bridges and tunnels...
02:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> and i really need PBS
02:40:05 <Gonozal_VIII> need? it can enhance performance but where do you really need it?
02:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have lots of occasions where the current signalling is way too limited
02:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> i recently thought about this, and about half my issues could be solved with a second layer of presignals
02:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> and half of the rest by signals on tile edges
02:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> so both together would make 75%
02:42:21 <Gonozal_VIII> do you have screenshots of such a situation?
02:43:32 <fjb> I'm missing diagonal bridges and tunnel, too. I heard somebody is working on it.
02:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> take this station for example: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%24.%20Dez%201939.png
02:44:56 <fjb> You wouldn't need signals on tile edges if we had signals that were realistic.
02:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: yeah, but they are easier to implement
02:45:18 <fjb> The requested URL /~krause/Ravenswald Transport,$. Dez 1939.png was not found on this server.
02:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> take this station for example: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%204.%20Dez%201939.png
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02:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually it's www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png
02:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it should redirect
02:46:44 <gono_ping_timeout> got disconnected...
02:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, the problem is the station on the left
02:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> it needs entrence signals from the south
02:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> and i need independent combosignals for the single track section to the east
02:48:07 <gono_ping_timeout> that's some really weird track layout you've got there
02:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not that weird
02:48:40 <fjb> But it is always difficult to make a good layout in the mountains.
02:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> passenger trains come from the south and east to the left station
02:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> long freight trains come from the south to the long platforms
02:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> and short freight trains come from the north and east to the short platforms
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02:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> all tracks are one way dual track, except for the connection from the left station to the east route
02:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is two-way single track
02:52:31 <gono_ping_timeout> why don't you use a bridge there instead of crossing the freight lines?
02:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> bridges are bad, mkay?
02:52:53 <gono_ping_timeout> bridges are bad?^^
02:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, let's say "unrealistic"
02:54:07 <gono_ping_timeout> it would save you much trouble there
02:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> the point about flat junctions is that there are flat
02:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png
02:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> not a single bridge in there
02:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> or this one, slightly extended: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
02:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> signals on tile edges could make this slightly less bloated
03:00:27 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: You need kind of realistic signals, not some strange signals at the edges of the tiles.
03:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> i kinda cheated here: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2020.%20Okt%201947.png
03:00:54 <fjb> Who has seen signals at the entry of a platform in reality?
03:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: yes, i know what i need
03:01:53 <gono_ping_timeout> there are tunnels :-)
03:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, that's what i meant about "cheating" ;)
03:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i just couldn't handle the space i needed for proper signalling there
03:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> this all would be a non-issue with proper PBS
03:05:31 <gono_ping_timeout> wouldn't help with trains crossing 90
03:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> trains crossing are not the problem
03:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> trains passing each other in different directions are the issue with the current signalling
03:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> in 90% of the cases, trains that would cross would also want to use the same exit line
03:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> i had another issue where i needed better presignals, but i don't have a screenshot...
03:12:12 <gono_ping_timeout> i don't have screenshots of my networks here but i try to keep them as simple as possible
03:12:56 <fjb> The actual signal design is kind of broken. But who does a better one?
03:13:39 <gono_ping_timeout> the trains should always look ahead
03:13:54 <gono_ping_timeout> as much as they would need for a full stop
03:14:53 <gono_ping_timeout> and if there is a red signal or another train they will slow down until they stand still or the signal is green again
03:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's a whole differnt kind of signalling issue
03:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> it has nothing to do with making trains stop outside of a junction, and never in the middle of it
03:16:40 <gono_ping_timeout> but trains should never just stop from one pixel to the nex
03:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> that should be quite easy to do even
03:17:32 <gono_ping_timeout> then you would have to use presignals as priority lines in front of every junction or your trains would crash
03:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> the only real problem there is that you need a transition from default-green (current) signals to default-red signals
03:18:56 <gono_ping_timeout> yes default red would be more realistic
03:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> so upon reaching a presignal, you check if you can force the next signal to green, if that replies "no, train in the way", then you initiate stopping
03:21:41 <gono_ping_timeout> you would have to put more thought into signalling if your trains could crash when you don't place them correct
03:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, this should of course be a difficulty option
03:22:34 <gono_ping_timeout> everything in openttd is optional anyways so that goes without saying
03:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> the main problem here is this check of "train in the way" needs not only check the next signal block, but also all other entrance blocks to that block, if some train has previously forced his signal to green
03:24:29 <gono_ping_timeout> i think that can be handled by the signals and the train only has to work with his signal
03:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but currently there is no such "signal handler"
03:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> btw, i don't think trains should crash if the presignals are too close, but instead the max speed of the track should be limited
03:26:16 <gono_ping_timeout> you could even remove all pathfinding from the trains and program the junctions to direct certain groups of trains to certain exits
03:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> you are jumping topics here...
03:26:49 <gono_ping_timeout> sorry.. i tend to do that
03:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> and i go to bed
03:27:49 <gono_ping_timeout> the other player (and host) of the game i was playing also went to bed some minutes ago
03:28:28 <gono_ping_timeout> good night then
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08:04:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11455 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make autoroad, 'normal' road building and 'normal' rail building all react the same on CTRL as autorail.
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10:27:39 <BigBB> That's transartica, right?
10:28:08 <hylje> i dunno, i found it in an imageboard
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11:16:16 <Ammler> BigBB: is this game downloadable, legal I mean?
11:18:28 <BigBB> make money with trade and/or battle (train vs train) IIRC
11:19:47 <BigBB> funny is, you can drive faster with your train if you don't put coal in the boiler, but your money :D
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11:43:24 <hylje> i came up with towns having a plan
11:43:41 <hylje> which decides where roads and buildings go
11:44:01 <hylje> players could influence that to let their stations fit in somehow..
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13:55:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11457 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
13:55:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: (r11455) Reenable the accidentaly removed one way roads option
13:55:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Enable one way roads like the remove via a toolbar icon
13:58:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11458 /extra/ottd_grf/split/ (openttdgui.nfo openttdgui.pcx): -Change: Add the one way road icon
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14:03:25 <LeviathNL> skidd13, it would be nice if you could use the remove button with the oneway road button
14:12:27 <skidd13> Do you meant to remove the one way from the road?
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14:19:40 <geoff_k_> is there a way to improve performance of the game on larger maps, its becoming almost impossible to play when there are lots of fast trains and aircraft on the map?
14:20:08 <LeviathNL> what pathfinder are you using?
14:20:10 <skidd13> LeviathNL: I wasn't sure if I should disable the remove. But if I'd enable it to remove I'd have 2 options: 1st addapt the command handling or 2nd do some dirty stuff with the handling of the remove button. I decided to disable it, cause it was the cleanest way.
14:20:25 <geoff_k_> LeviathNL, not sure i don't change it
14:20:59 <skidd13> geoff_k_: npf for ships, and yapf for everything other should be the best
14:20:59 <LeviathNL> geoff_k_, look in the vehicles tab of the patch settings
14:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> geoff_k_: make sure YAPF is on, and you don't use ships
14:21:31 <geoff_k_> thanks, skidd13, LeviathNL and Eddi|zuHause3
14:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, waypoints can drastically reduce the CPU usage of the pathfinder
14:21:47 <glx> ships should not use YAPF nor NPF
14:21:50 <geoff_k_> i guess there is no way to change that on dedicated server once its playing?
14:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, do not zoom out :p
14:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, you can change patch settings from the console
14:22:30 <geoff_k_> ok cool thanks i'll get onto it this could be a life saver
14:22:49 <geoff_k_> i usualy give up trying to play
14:25:55 <geoff_k_> LeviathNL, thanks i know it been there many times, actualy been playing it for a while this game but just thought my system wasn't good enoguh but its same on a newer system pretty much
14:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> huge maps are not the greatest for internet gaming anyway
14:27:10 <geoff_k_> i've got 2 dedicated servers running and playing using it to play the game on a 2Ghz, 64mb agp with 1gig ram would think its enough really for this game
14:27:20 <geoff_k_> yeah they are big maps
14:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> OTTD is very CPU intensive
14:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> ram and graphics does not really help
14:28:48 <geoff_k_> yeah i got loads of free ram just over half in use cpu i know goes as fast as it can
14:29:01 <LeviathNL> ottd does not make use of multiple cores does it?
14:29:31 <geoff_k_> and graphicaly the game don't do much, although i notice it gets really bad ifg i have a few train windows open and aircraft
14:30:04 <geoff_k_> other people on the maps don;t seem to have any issue
14:31:13 <Rubidium> geoff_k_: what version of OTTD are you running?
14:32:05 <geoff_k_> its always been same for all versions
14:32:14 <Rubidium> have you enabled improved loading *and* gradual loading?
14:32:27 <geoff_k_> going back to 0.4.7 or .6 when i starterd to play openttd
14:32:38 <geoff_k_> i have improved loading on
14:33:11 <Rubidium> that's a known cause of very slow games. Disable either one of them, or use a nightly
14:33:33 <geoff_k_> thanks will test it out
14:57:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11460 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Documentation: update some documentation to better match the current state and the state in the nearby future of OpenTTD.
14:57:39 <geoff_k_> gradual loading seems to have made a big difference thanks, all the other settings i had anyway
15:00:26 <geoff_k_> not sure it has though turning it back on seems to make no difference now i'll keep messing
15:00:55 <Rubidium> it will start messing after a while when the stations start filling up with cargo *and* trains
15:02:27 <geoff_k_> ah i see, most my problem seems to be when i got plane and train windows open once i got to fast electric trains, maybe im pushing it to the limit there of what the system can handle but other than hte 2 maps and me playing couple of irc channels not much elsse happening on the system
15:03:43 <geoff_k_> im runing on KDE on slackware on the client side, the 2 maps are runing aside from the desktop
15:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11461 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1449] (r11449): a bus turning around in a station could case an assertion error. Patch by divide.
15:11:43 <geoff_k_> one other thing i've found opening my train list don't help but i can live with that for what its used 95 trains in the list all electric, usualy when deisel trains are introduced the problem starts
15:15:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11462 /tags/0.6.0-beta1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:15:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Release: 0.6.0-beta1.
15:15:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: The first major step into the road of releasing 0.6.0, which will give you loads
15:15:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: of new features, like newhouses, newindustries, signals and diagonal tracks
15:15:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: under bridges, trams, autoslope, oneway roads, half tile slopes and much more.
15:15:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: It furthermore contains quite a few performance improvements under certain
15:15:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: conditions as well as a very long list of bugreports. If you are really
15:17:26 <Rubidium> interested, you should read the changelog.
15:17:26 <Rubidium> We OpenTTD developers hope that you will thoroughly test it so we can quickly release the real 0.6.0.
15:17:39 <Rubidium> (just to finish what CIA-1 started to tell you)
15:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> what happened to RCx?
15:21:46 <geoff_k_> nice i'll try that out
15:22:06 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: they'll come in a few weeks
15:22:36 <Rubidium> as you might have noticed with 0.5.0-RC1-4 there were still loads of bugfixes and features being backported and such
15:22:49 <Rubidium> which was not an effective use of time
15:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> so this is not feature complete
15:23:10 <glx> branching is not done yet
15:23:36 <Rubidium> there still a few (small) features (/bugfixes) pending
15:24:33 <Rubidium> and I want to get more testers somewhat earlier in the process ;)
15:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i can understand that
15:25:53 <Rubidium> and not doing the branch yet makes savegame changing stuff a little easier too ;)
15:26:57 <geoff_k_> is it ever likely anyt of the newgrfs will get into the game find it a shame no one has them or joins games that use them
15:27:41 * Rubidium refrains from giving a 'stupid', yet correct answer
15:28:02 <geoff_k_> i thik i know the answer you mean
15:28:32 <geoff_k_> well not totaly sure maybe not
15:29:04 <geoff_k_> from what i know its all down to people copywriting their own works which is fair enough
15:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is copyright... like the opposite of copyleft
15:31:19 <geoff_k_> i've looked in the past at making some myself but never got that far with understanding half of how they work
15:35:33 <geoff_k_> 3 things i'd really like to see int eh game is standalone which i belive is scheduled for 0.7.0 whenever that comes, some new vehicles and i'd be interested in the daylength patch to slow things down but preferable without it messing up the ecconomy
15:36:36 <geoff_k_> always find the game moves too fast after you get to electric it seems to be just a constant battle to keep upgrading stuff
15:39:56 <geoff_k_> or any easier way to upgrade track wtihout disrupting things would help but i've no idea how that can be done better
15:40:23 <Ammler> heya, is there a download location for the beta?
15:40:43 <Rubidium> not yet; binaries are not yet made
15:40:50 <geoff_k_> good question im about to have a look
15:41:04 <Rubidium> Ammler: and if you want OSX binaries you have to wait till Bjarni arrives
15:41:15 <Rubidium> (and notices that there was a release)
15:41:37 <Ammler> Rubidium: how to configure that it will be compatibe with the bins?
15:41:57 <Rubidium> as you do with all and any other release?
15:42:09 <Rubidium> just export the correct svn dir
15:42:10 <Ammler> --revision=0.6.0-beta1 or just without?
15:42:20 <Ammler> oh, well, thats a idea :)
15:43:12 <Ammler> will the planespeed be fixed for 0.6?
15:44:03 <Ammler> nvm, not important, just 4x faster, but same running costs
15:44:17 <geoff_k_> would that be planespeed as in the fact planes move slower than trains? or seem ot
15:45:32 <geoff_k_> i don't mindthe planespeed as it is i suspect by speeding it up can cause more problems with crowded airports. I also thing it wouldn't help the performance of tha game
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16:02:34 <Ammler> hmm, Rubidium, I checked out 0.6.0
16:02:57 <Ammler> but I have the the revision number is that meant to be?
16:03:10 <Ammler> svn checkout -r11369 svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.0-beta1 && cd 0.6.0-beta1 && ./configure && make
16:05:17 <geoff_k_> i'm not sure how to grab the code for this beta release, never used use svn to download source, someone told me hg clone <and_some_path> was a way for something else oncew but never tried it and in this case i wouldn't know what path im hitting
16:05:55 <Rubidium> hg clone will *not* work
16:05:56 <geoff_k_> or is hg something else i know its for mercurial repos is that different to svn i;ve no idea
16:06:41 <geoff_k_> i can use svn when i work it out its time i did
16:07:11 <Ammler> that line would be better :): svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.0-beta1 && cd 0.6.0-beta1 && ./configure && make
16:07:30 <Rubidium> Ammler: s/checkout/export/
16:07:35 <Ammler> hmm, maybe export, yeah
16:07:36 <Rubidium> saves you like 20 MB
16:07:47 <geoff_k_> sounds good i'll give it a go thanks
16:07:50 <Ammler> thats the difference to trunk
16:08:15 <Ammler> tags won't change, do they?
16:08:39 <Rubidium> they should not, and if they do, it's a developer who messed up
16:09:04 <geoff_k_> well its doing something so i'll, let you know how it goes
16:11:23 <Ammler> Rubidium: hmm on svn would be best to update to r11462 and ./configure --revision=0.6.0-beta1, wouldn't?
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16:14:08 <Rubidium> never ever do that as it is bound to break
16:15:50 <Ammler> Rubidium: we use SVN checkouts for all coop servers, but I would like to participate on beta test
16:16:10 <Ammler> the bin is at ~/svn-public/bin
16:16:38 <Ammler> and svn-public is the trunk for public server
16:17:31 <Ammler> we have the whole configuration there (autopilot, grf, openttd.cfg), do I need to make a new dir and copy those things to there?
16:18:35 <Ammler> and if you release beta2, we have to copy another time?
16:19:11 <glx> grf just go in the "common" data dir
16:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can use svn switch or something
16:20:44 <Gonozal_VIII> what's the difference between 0.6.0 beta and trunk? shouldn't that be the same?
16:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> to move between tags
16:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you have a checkout of tags/0.6.0-beta1 you can switch to tags/0.6.0-beta2
16:22:54 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: could I also switch from trunk to tags?
16:23:22 <Ammler> and switch does remove first or also only update?
16:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> it should work similar to svn up -rXXXX
16:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> i.e. apply repository changes and keep local changes
16:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> if in doubt, keep a backup ;)
16:29:27 <Ammler> hmm, I guess, then its same as trunk update and Rubidium won't like it too.
16:32:03 <Rubidium> Ammler: the assumption that 0.6.0-beta* == trunk @ revision of tag will not always hold.
16:35:29 <Ammler> hmm, so I need to switch to tags or could I leave it, I mean is it for next time or do I need it also for this beta?
16:35:58 <Ammler> (server is already running)
16:36:59 <geoff_k_> is there no openttd.cfg file with this beta? or have i missed something
16:37:23 <Ammler> I guess, there was never one
16:37:41 <Ammler> it will be generated automatically if needed
16:37:56 <geoff_k_> i see so i can only edit the setting with the gui i guess i create my own, the releases so far have them but i use my own for different servers anyway usualy
16:38:14 <geoff_k_> unless i create my own*
16:38:58 <Rubidium> Ammler: with the stupidity with respect to OpenTTD version numbers from members of OpenTTDCoop I really hope you do not start forcing the revision numbers
16:38:59 <Ammler> you can start/stop ottd and you will have your cfg
16:39:09 <Rubidium> as it is going to cause trouble again
16:39:31 <Ammler> Rubidium: we need that all the time
16:39:38 <Ammler> because we patching the server
16:39:41 <Rubidium> why do you need that?
16:39:49 <geoff_k_> Ammler, i did start and stop after setting all the patches but i dont see no openttd.cfg i'll check again though
16:40:09 <glx> geoff_k_: check in ~/openttd
16:40:27 <Ammler> atm, its dihedrals cfg reload patch
16:40:31 <Rubidium> Ammler: so OpenTTDCoop's binary is NOT a regular nightly/release, so it should not have a regular nightly/release version number.
16:40:47 <Ammler> hmm, its only server side
16:40:58 <geoff_k_> glx, i don;t have that i didn;t do make install im running it with just doing make
16:41:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11463 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix: some OSes seem not to handle allocating 0 bytes in the same manner as others do.
16:41:56 <Rubidium> Ammler: yeah, causing desyncs when it is just a messup on your side
16:42:27 <glx> like rxxx patched and reporting ryyyy
16:43:00 <Ammler> well, IF we would have problems with something, we know how to use svn revert before asking for support
16:43:35 <Rubidium> only the ./configure overrides do not clear on a revert
16:44:05 <Ammler> hmm, thats new to me, are you sure?
16:44:09 <geoff_k_> can't find no openttd.cfg anywhere started it and closed it 2 times unless its hiding somewhere i don't know of
16:44:38 <glx> geoff_k_: did you checked where I told you to check?
16:44:40 <valhallasw> Ammler: the generated configure files are not included in a svn co
16:44:59 <valhallasw> and indeed, forcing an incorrect revision is just plain stupid
16:45:04 <geoff_k_> glx, i don;t have a openttd dir i looked in the bin/ folder
16:45:08 <Ammler> well, of course but that the rev.cpp for, isn't?
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16:45:15 <geoff_k_> and a few other places
16:45:58 <Ammler> valhallasw: its a little bit too late to say that or have you ever told that earlier?
16:46:16 <glx> hmm it's ~/.openttd for linux
16:46:29 <geoff_k_> glx, ah i got it thanks its ~/.openttd hidden dir
16:46:39 <hylje> what does ottd use for sockets
16:48:32 <Ammler> but well, we can revert it, if its really that stupid
16:49:00 <valhallasw> what does dihedrals patch do?
16:49:24 <Ammler> its possible to reload settings without SSH
16:49:43 <valhallasw> ok, but that causes wanted desyncs
16:49:49 <valhallasw> or at least wanted disconnects
16:49:58 <valhallasw> so that patch should be ok
16:50:21 <valhallasw> but if we use any patch that changes gameplay, forcing the revision number is stupid :)
16:50:44 <valhallasw> (forcing revision numbers is like using goto: stupid, unless you are 100% sure you are doing the right thing)
16:51:51 <Ammler> sometimes, I personally do that to have client features, where aren't already on the server revision
16:51:55 <Rubidium> and with openttdcoop you certainly cannot be 100% sure
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16:52:39 <glx> I remember we searched for a desync caused by this kind of error
16:53:21 <valhallasw> Rubidium: patches like dihedrals generate wanted desyncs ;)
16:53:27 <Sacro> if Atari goes bankrupt, what happens to the copyrights?
16:53:51 <Ammler> glx: more concret please?
16:54:00 <valhallasw> Sacro: I suppose they go on auction?
16:54:14 <Ammler> you can buy them for 1$
16:54:15 * Sacro wins them and then sues OpenTTD :D
16:56:11 <glx> Ammler: the source were up to date with trunk, but the server reported an older rev or something like that
16:56:32 <Sacro> i wouldn't sue for much
16:56:41 <Sacro> that'd cover me for a pizza
16:57:01 <orudge> or you could make it free
16:57:07 <orudge> and we'd give you £5 for a pizza
16:57:14 <Sacro> ooh, that would also work
16:57:31 <Ammler> glx: yep, because a member updated the server after some monts the 1. time without reading the Admin wiki
16:58:30 <Sacro> "To edit openttd.cfg via SSH you should use vim: vi openttd.cfg"
16:58:34 <Sacro> that doesn't seem right
16:58:40 <Sacro> surely you are using Vi
16:58:43 <hylje> viiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
16:58:58 <valhallasw> Sacro: vi is a symlink to vim ;)
16:59:26 <Sacro> my distro has vi, vim and gvim as seperates
17:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 8 14. Sep 19:23 /usr/bin/vi -> /bin/vim
17:00:25 <Ammler> Well, I guess, the patch isn't worth to have such confusing
17:01:10 <valhallasw> I'd rather see the server report something like MC for modified/compatible
17:01:48 <Ammler> valhallasw: that won't happen, or do you like to provide all different bins
17:02:12 <valhallasw> I mean that the clients will connect, but it will still be clear it's a modified version
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17:03:30 <michi_cc> Rubidium: any chance to get that update to determineversion.vbs into trunk? especially now as the correct revision is rather important with the new openttd.grf
17:04:26 <michi_cc> support file for visual studio
17:05:07 <valhallasw> vbs sounds like 'visual basic script' to me :P
17:06:12 <oh> where can I find 0.6.0-b1?
17:06:22 <michi_cc> would you mind a .bat file less? or maybe a .js file :)
17:06:46 <michi_cc> and yeah, it is visual basic script
17:10:14 <Rubidium> michi_cc: better let glx do that as he can actually test whether it works
17:10:34 <Rubidium> oh: not another nightly, but we're still in the process of making the binaries
17:12:07 <oh> Rubidium: osx ones holding you back?
17:12:12 <Ammler> general question, will you include other features to 0.6 final then in beta or only bugfixes?
17:12:24 <glx> oh: we need the osx dev for that
17:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> then why do we keep him? :p
17:14:09 <Sacro> nah, we should dispose of the OSX dev
17:15:42 <yorick> Ammler: the shore patch
17:15:44 <Rubidium> well, for a OSX releases/compatability we do
17:16:01 <orudge> there we go, 0.6.0-beta1-os2 up too
17:17:24 <Rubidium> orudge: could you update the md5sums at openttd.org/downloads.php ?
17:17:58 <glx> reinstalling git to be able to test :)
17:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> MarkSlap: what are you supposed to see there?
17:19:28 <oh> I've fallen in love with the monstrosity that is the 10.5 dock
17:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> is that an osx dock under windows or mirc under osx? :p
17:19:39 <oh> that screen reminds me of an early version of the gdesklets dock ;P
17:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> in both cases it's probably a stupid thing to do
17:20:42 <oh> the win binaries are there
17:20:43 <Sacro> it knows some half decent defaults
17:20:49 <Sacro> unless its already found an existing config
17:20:54 <Sacro> which could provide issues
17:21:18 <yorick> sorry, i don't know the usual place for stables
17:22:03 <yorick> looks very irritation to me
17:22:11 <yorick> to have name oh with highlight
17:22:24 <oh> yeah, didnt grab my username with irc in mind ;P
17:22:39 <Sacro> i shall have to do one for ArchLinux
17:23:31 <Sacro> oh: but you will get the most mentioned nick in the stats
17:23:59 <floffe> on another channel, someone apparently changed nick to forehead once
17:24:08 <floffe> he was attacked a lot, according to stats
17:25:02 <Sacro> orudge: can you correct the spelling of officially please :)
17:27:11 <MarkSlap> Eddi|zuHause3, Windows with RockerDock
17:28:21 <Sacro> i need more SimSig players :(
17:28:24 <MarkSlap> I'm running Debian on my wrks
17:29:43 <geoff_k_> on this beta1 my desktop task bar seems to be hiding the bottom of the screen, looks fine full screen don't suppose anyone else has this ? ( Ammler ? )
17:30:19 <MarkSlap> I'm more of an OSuSE-person usually, but I'm in love with APT
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17:30:57 <geoff_k_> debian is good at what it does i run most my servers on it
17:31:33 <geoff_k_> good support plenty of packages
17:31:43 <geoff_k_> and simple to maintain
17:33:05 <geoff_k_> i like the pacman form ttylinux its different form the archlinux i tihnk its really simple just a single script i use it in various places
17:33:26 <Sacro> geoff_k_: pacman started off as a single script
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17:34:05 <geoff_k_> Sacro, maybe its same thing then i only found it recently, i did notice archlinux uses one called pacman but looked different
17:35:00 <geoff_k_> totaly different options i'm sure the copywrite on it was by the ttylinux creator to but not sure
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17:39:58 <oh> man, textmate is the best text editor, any os :>
17:41:54 <geoff_k_> i use kate, kwrite on the desktop or vi, nano and joe in terminal i only use linux, vi can be anoying sometimes different distros it seems to have different habbits with it
17:44:50 <Zuu> vim/gvim is available for lots of platforms so you'll never miss it. :)
17:45:45 <Sacro> is it /tags/something ?
17:47:46 <geoff_k_> i did svn export svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.0-beta1
17:47:49 <Sacro> Zuu: look at the channel name :p
17:48:20 <oh> what's the youtube part of the topic all about?
17:48:32 <Zuu> I only visit dev-forum every day, not the general forum. But I did check the openttd.org actially.
17:49:11 <Sacro> arch is going to have openttd, openttd-svn and openttd-beta
17:50:15 <hylje> what about when we don't have any beta
17:50:39 * Zuu don't sees anything about a beta in the general forum.
17:51:54 <Gonozal_VIII> isn't the trunk the beta of the next release anyways?
17:51:57 <Sacro> as I can't have 0.6.0-beta1 as a version number
17:52:49 * Zuu finds the word 0.6.0-beta on the download page of openttd.org :)
17:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: no, more like alpha
17:54:30 <geoff_k_> when you get beta1 running see if the taskbar on your desktop (if your runnign that way) hides the bottom of the screen because it does for me
17:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: but the point is to have a public release so more people will test stuff
17:55:36 <geoff_k_> duh no forget that i just resized it and maximised it its fine now :)
17:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> you would kinda expect that the task bar, if set to "always on top" would also be on top of the ottd window...
17:56:46 <geoff_k_> its normaly fine no idea how it got liek that never seen it before
17:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> started new install without config file?
17:57:39 <geoff_k_> using default config
17:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> then the maximised setting is probably saved
17:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> so you never noticed it
17:57:55 <geoff_k_> or defuult file i've edited it
17:58:38 <geoff_k_> i usualy create my own config file from the original and always run it dedicated server
17:58:40 <Zuu> Though, unless you specify with an argument it will use the configuration file in your home directory as of now, not the one in current directory.
17:59:13 <geoff_k_> yeah i found it with help the config is in ~/.openttd
17:59:14 <Gonozal_VIII> Nightly builds are available for the daring and adventurous users who wish to be on the bleeding edge. Note that these builds are completely unsupported and may not even function properly. Use at your own risk. Backup your savegame ALWAYS before using a nightly. Don't complain to us if it has eaten your savegame. <-- maybe if you change that paragraph a little more people would use nightlies... i think they are more stable than t
18:01:12 <Noldo_> today's nightly might be as stable as the stable it self, but tomorrow's might not be
18:01:39 <yorick> i think they are more stable than t...... the real stable
18:08:57 <Gonozal_VIII> it's written in a very negative way without mentioning that there are lots of new features in it...
18:10:11 <rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: but it is for the case that there is a really broken trunk revision
18:11:14 *** rubidium is now known as Rubidium
18:12:43 <Gonozal_VIII> sure the risk hast to be mentioned but it doesn't happen very often and i never had a broken save with the nightlies
18:13:01 <Rubidium> you maybe not, but I have
18:13:19 <Zuu> I see you devs (and I guess skidd13 too) have managed to shorten the list of bug reports to a fairly short list over the weekend. Very nice :)
18:13:28 <Gonozal_VIII> something that loading it with the next nightly didn't fix?
18:13:48 <Zuu> (open bug reports that is)
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18:57:52 <geoff_k_> nice automatic signal completion, i remember saying it would be nice to have some time ago in here, not sure i like the new default signals though but the auto feature makes that no problem
18:58:39 <Gonozal_VIII> new default signals?
18:58:49 <geoff_k_> well they are here unless i done something
18:58:59 <geoff_k_> its the one you normaly have to press ctrl for
18:59:06 <geoff_k_> the old style signals
18:59:18 <geoff_k_> maybe its due to era im still browsing the changelog
18:59:55 <Gonozal_VIII> you can change the year when lights will be used
19:00:08 <geoff_k_> not seen that as an option before is it new?
19:00:34 <Gonozal_VIII> not very new but new
19:01:13 <geoff_k_> i might liek the old signals now with this new auto completion feature i always found them more hassel and i like to save time building
19:01:29 <Gonozal_VIII> just set the year to 1900 or something if you always want lights as default
19:02:12 <geoff_k_> i started the map on 1935
19:02:38 <geoff_k_> don't know that without newgrfs there are any useful vehicles
19:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, the first ones start around that date
19:03:26 <geoff_k_> unless something was added i've not looked at, maybe i should check a few past changlogs i;ve never read them before
19:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> nothing with the default vehicles got changed
19:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> it was already like that in TTO
19:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, TTO started at 1930
19:04:40 <geoff_k_> yeah didn't think so i usualy check i like the idea of starting early as possible
19:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> they left out a few engines when they made TTD
19:05:29 <geoff_k_> never seen TTO, i;ve known TTD though since the DOS version
19:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> TTO only had one monorail engine, and no maglevs
19:06:21 <geoff_k_> actualy i say TTD i may be getting confused because the 1st version i seen was not deluxe
19:06:56 <geoff_k_> one thing i never did with the old game was get that far i always ended up starting a new game
19:07:26 *** Yorick|AFK is now known as YOrick
19:07:38 <geoff_k_> i get confused now what the original game did and didn't do
19:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> in the first few (realtime) years, i never got that far, because my computer was very slow
19:08:43 <geoff_k_> might of been same reason here, i remember 1st playing it on a very new P133 it was one of 1st pentium class pc's to be built i know it worked on 486's
19:10:16 <Hendikins> Bjarni: Nothing like late trains and a broken TVM to spice up what was supposed to be a cleaning shift.
19:12:50 <Gonozal_VIII> do i remember right that you could build diagonal rails only tile by tile?
19:13:30 *** YOrick is now known as Yorick
19:13:50 <geoff_k_> i never knew of any drag and drop rails in the original game but maybe i didn;t see it i never played online back then so my learning curve was limited
19:14:08 <geoff_k_> same with one way signals
19:14:16 <SmatZ> Gonozal_VIII: yes.... I did it this way --> holding arrow and quickly pressing Insert (worked as left mouse button)
19:14:18 <geoff_k_> didn;t really learn the game until i got online with this
19:14:28 <geoff_k_> even though i had played it quite a bit
19:14:37 <SmatZ> maybe one of harder changes in ottd for me - ins no longer works as lmb...
19:14:49 <Gonozal_VIII> aaah i can remember now... i used a slow train and built in it's viewpoint
19:18:20 <geoff_k_> actualy i do remember diagonal tile placement to be a pain
19:19:58 <Gonozal_VIII> me too but the trick with building in the train window was quite nice^^
19:20:20 <geoff_k_> yeah i think i did that before myself once or twice
19:22:55 <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't use signals :D one train per line
19:22:57 <geoff_k_> the way i ply the game now though is so much different to then, i learned a lot from playing online which is why i'm uncertain what exactly was in the original that i never noticed
19:24:15 <geoff_k_> there are only 2 games i go back that far with that i still play, ttd and civ but i replaced them both with openttd and freeciv, civ i used to play on the amiga
19:24:40 <geoff_k_> infact they are almost the only games i play
19:26:04 <geoff_k_> sometimes i still i like to play rollercoaster tycoon II which is a bit later and as we should all know is by same person as TTD but that requires windows and thats becoming a thing of the past for me i hardly use it for anything else
19:26:58 <geoff_k_> shame can't make a good multiplayer out of RCT i like it but how would that be multiplayer i don't know
19:32:19 <Zuu> geoff_k_: Perhaps same as Theme Hospital MP? Seperate parks on the same map, but visitors can move from park to park perhaps.
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19:33:27 <geoff_k_> Zuu, yeah possible i've played that one a bit but not much, used to have loads of tycoon type games
19:33:52 <geoff_k_> stil have but i don't play any of them
19:34:07 <Zuu> I never got MP to work on Theme Hospital, but I've done all SP maps on it. :)
19:36:23 <geoff_k_> openttd has to be the best multiplayer real time game out there for me, only trhing i think might knowck a few points off that and still probably not be better is a decent opensource red alert / C&C type game that was low on graphics and more things in the game
19:37:20 <geoff_k_> i there there is a FreeRA or something out there i seen but its a bit abandonded form what i looked at and not fully released properly
19:39:36 <geoff_k_> really i should contratulate the good work goes on round here the realeases come very quickly, turn you back for a moment and you miss a version or 2 it gets better all the time
19:42:41 <Bjarni> <Hendikins> Bjarni: Nothing like late trains and a broken TVM to spice up what was supposed to be a cleaning shift. <-- hehe... what is TVM? :)
19:42:58 <Yorick> shouldn't any of the devs make a newsposting @openttd.org?
19:43:17 <geoff_k_> i often wonder what will this game be like in 30 or more years time i'm confident its never going to go away
19:43:28 <Bjarni> how much are you willing to pay us to do so?
19:43:54 <Rubidium> it's rather: how much are you willing to pay Microsoft to keep supporting C++
19:44:27 <Bjarni> even if we sell all our internal organs we wouldn't have enough to pay that amount
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19:45:05 <Bjarni> I don't think GCC will stop supporting C++
19:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> but someone has to be supporting GCC
19:46:03 <Bjarni> it's too soon to tell what OSes that are available in 30 years
19:46:15 <Bjarni> try to go back 30 years and predict what we have today
19:46:34 <Bjarni> but... I was actually replying to Yorick, not geoff_k_ :P
19:46:35 <geoff_k_> gcc is a part of the industry unless a viable reasonable alternative comes along i dont see it going anyshere
19:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> all industry i know uses windows and MSVC
19:47:32 <geoff_k_> the industry of software creation and developemnt its too widely used i think
19:47:40 <geoff_k_> some thing just are here to stay i bleive
19:47:59 <Zuu> Such as visual basic 6.0 aka VBA :)
19:48:05 <geoff_k_> just liek linux its not going anywhere althjough i understand the point
19:49:01 <geoff_k_> things may change but no one is going to pull out the rug from under the projects that use them now that i do believe
19:49:09 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause3> all industry i know uses windows and MSVC <-- hardware industry uses GCC
19:49:32 <Yorick> shouldn't any of the devs make a newsposting @openttd.org?
19:49:52 <Bjarni> how much are you willing to pay us to do so?
19:50:01 <Bjarni> you never answered that question :P
19:50:03 <geoff_k_> well i don;t know there is an underside to industry *i think* where you don;t actualy see hwere a lot of this technology goes its not jsut computers at home
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19:54:21 <geoff_k_> my way of putting it would be to take gcc out of the industry would be like removing the gearbox from a car, the gear box is never going to go away
19:55:10 <geoff_k_> the past yes things have move fast and changed very fast but they are early experimental changes and time has moved on now
19:55:34 <MaSch> is there a german channel for openTTD questions? ^^
19:56:29 <ln-> this one, if you ask in the german dialect called "englisch".
19:57:20 <Zuu> For most people here english is the second language so you are welcome to ask your questions here. :)
19:58:08 <ln-> modern german has >50% english words anyway.
19:58:16 <geoff_k_> im english and still make a mess of it
19:58:52 <MaSch> by trains etc there is a option "transship" or so.. i dont know the english word
19:59:49 <MaSch> maybe.. so that the train transports something to the station and the next train bring it to the target
20:02:44 <MaSch> so.. now i have a train that transports something from a to b and it brings me up to 77k .... in yellow color, so i dont get it on my bank account
20:03:00 <MaSch> the next train transports it from b to c
20:03:11 <MaSch> and it only brings 17k O.o
20:03:31 <Yorick> if you look at your bank account too?
20:04:29 <geoff_k_> one thing i've always found with transfering cargo is it don't make good profits
20:05:00 <geoff_k_> i tried it once with 3 and 4 transfers accross a huge map lot of profit is lost
20:05:14 <MaSch> there is a green number "17xxx" .. on my bank account there are only 17k more than bevore
20:05:23 <geoff_k_> i no longer do transfers unless its a very short distance
20:05:46 <valhallasw> geoff_k_: yes, because the cargo needs to wait at those stations
20:05:49 <MaSch> so i had to transport the stuff directly to the target`?
20:06:07 <Rubidium> MaSch: what version are you playing?
20:06:07 <geoff_k_> valhallasw, yeah thats what i guessed shame i feel though
20:06:25 <valhallasw> add more trains :D
20:06:26 <Rubidium> it's kinda know problem there
20:06:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11465 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix: more user-friedly placement in X and Y directions (most noticeable with autoroad)
20:07:15 <Rubidium> the 'middle' station gets some cargo directly from an industry, right?
20:07:43 <MaSch> mine -> station -> powerplant
20:08:57 <Rubidium> does the middle station receive cargo from multiple mines?
20:10:22 <hylje> (what'd be the point of having such a station then...
20:10:28 <MaSch> it has "his own" mine and gets stuff from 2 other mines
20:10:33 <Rubidium> that's something that the transfer system can't handle pre 0.5.4
20:10:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11466 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Fix (r11339): operator priority problem resulting in problematic autoroad placement in some cases
20:10:54 <Rubidium> or at least can handle correctly
20:12:15 <geoff_k_> maybe the answer to transfers would be to have a value of the damand of a place when it arrives
20:12:20 <MaSch> okay .. i thing i build it on the other way
20:13:05 <Rubidium> geoff_k_: the problem with transfers pre 0.5.4 is that it can only come from a single origin, or it messes up enormously
20:13:16 <Rubidium> giving you either way too much or way too little profit
20:13:27 <geoff_k_> personaly if i went out to buy 100ton of coal i wouldn't expect it to be cheaper because it passed through 10 stations, its more a case of what the demand is at the location it ends at
20:13:49 <geoff_k_> yeah i noticed it never went well and not tried since
20:14:40 <Rubidium> should be better in 0.6.0-beta1 ;)
20:15:00 <geoff_k_> Rubidium, i've got it running i'll let you know :)
20:15:23 <geoff_k_> glad you say it should be better or i may not of tried it
20:15:49 <geoff_k_> might be tomorrow now before i play properly on it
20:16:01 <Rubidium> there are so many things that have improved in 0.6.0-beta1 ;)
20:16:09 <geoff_k_> i;ve got beer open now and bed may come shortly but i;ve got all week to play
20:16:23 <geoff_k_> yeah i noticed a few
20:17:02 <geoff_k_> i really like the signal competetion thats worthy of everything to me, i;ve asked for that in here about a year ago i think it was
20:18:16 <geoff_k_> what is really needced in the game i feel to take it to future days is easier to build and upgrade
20:21:30 <geoff_k_> sometimes it gets too easy in a way because i get performance issues when i start playing to my best, it ends up where i can't keep up and loose the will to continue, but thats not to complain about it just would be better if that stage could never be reached, i need a coop kind of idea maybe companies being able to merge would be intresting
20:21:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11467 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#1450]: OpenBSD has ALIGN already defined, causing compilation failures.
20:23:10 <Rubidium> geoff_k_: just take a small 128x128 map and keep optimizing; will keep you busy for weeks ;)
20:23:32 <Rubidium> how can I optimize this station so it still fits in this footprint, but has a higher throughput
20:24:15 <Zuu> Take a 128x64 MP with 3-4 players, that will keep them active for 3-4 hours at least.
20:24:22 <geoff_k_> i tried a roaqd only map liek that once slightly bigger but i found the road vehicles were all over ther place and not living up to expectations specialy when the ecconomy takes a dive
20:25:21 <geoff_k_> i tihnk ideal;y the game needs to slow down for me it moves to fast i don't get to do enough, but then if i could i have the other problem performance
20:25:43 <Rubidium> start by disabling animations
20:25:45 <Zuu> I actually would like to find a 128x64 MP again. You really have too think about town raiting at a whole diferent lever then.. :)
20:25:51 <Rubidium> (palette animations that is)
20:26:10 <geoff_k_> i do i noticed that makes a huge inface i'll say very huge difference
20:27:15 <geoff_k_> i always turn the animations off right away or i can't control my mouse it jumps all over the screen
20:29:04 <geoff_k_> i get 2 things either i use a small mapo and not enough room for players to expand as i'd like or the perfmance gets so bad i give up
20:30:11 <fjb> geoff_k_: What kind of computer are you using?
20:30:21 <geoff_k_> probalby my own fault not to say im best or anything but i always find myself running away from rest the player on the map and have far more cash to spend
20:31:31 <geoff_k_> fjb, to be honest i find it hard to ell any difference between a PIII and my desktop i now use which is 2Ghz, with 1GIG ram and a 64AGP grapahics card both act the same more or less
20:32:45 <fjb> I have no problem with 1GB ram with a 1024 x 1024 map.
20:33:21 <geoff_k_> most the problems are when i have a few train windows open or aircraft specialy after deisel is introduced and even wose for electric and thereafter
20:33:36 <geoff_k_> same map size as i play
20:33:43 <fjb> What kind of prozessor is it? A Pentium 4 at 2 GHz is not that fast, an Athlon 64 at 2GHz is much faster.
20:33:50 <geoff_k_> and also i should note no one else who plays my maps has this problem
20:34:11 <geoff_k_> hang on i'll check i've got a lot of pc's i don;t keep track
20:34:39 <geoff_k_> model name : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2600+
20:35:39 <fjb> Hm, that one is really not the fastest, but it should feel faster than a Pentium 3.
20:35:51 <geoff_k_> maybe i need a faster system but i live off throw away systems i haven't bought a systemmm for years
20:36:41 <geoff_k_> yeah but i find the differnce not much although i used to run the server on a PIII then play on a seperate system but now im using the same box for both
20:36:43 <fjb> The AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2600+ is really outdated now and is energy hungry.
20:37:20 <geoff_k_> maybe thats why a guy 1 floor below me threw it out other than the fact he never cleaned out his cpu fan and heat sink and it crashed all the time
20:37:44 <geoff_k_> it works great though for me for everything else
20:38:07 <geoff_k_> big noticeable difference to what im used to but playing openttd seems not much gain
20:38:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11468 /trunk/Makefile.src.in: -Fix (r11330): rev number detection didn't work for git with msys/mingw
20:38:40 <geoff_k_> i tihnk its the cpu myself
20:38:59 <fjb> The Athlon XP gets very hot, needs good cooling and wastes energy.
20:39:46 <geoff_k_> yeah thats was the pr4olbme massive over heating issues it was full of dust when i found it both heat sink and fan and just segfaulted at everything but after cleaning it all out its been nice and stable
20:39:57 <fjb> Is the big map slow from the beginning or only when you are building many vehicles?
20:40:21 <Rotonen> btw, what do people consider proper stability tests for hardware these days?
20:40:33 <geoff_k_> only when i get fast trains and aricraft that i've noticed
20:40:44 <fjb> Rotonen: Let is fall and when it survives it is stable. :-)
20:40:50 <geoff_k_> i consider stability because i run a lot of my own servers
20:41:10 <Rotonen> fjb: no, not really going to suffice
20:41:26 <geoff_k_> mostly what i run is virtual machines on Xen
20:41:30 <Rotonen> and i'm asking about consumer grade hardware: for professional hardware you can just get the manufacturer kit
20:41:31 <fjb> The next problem with the Athlon XP could be a cheap chipset or slow ram.
20:41:47 <geoff_k_> im a big fan of xen not of the new owners citrix though
20:41:50 <Rotonen> i've settled for running memtest overnight and not getting errors
20:42:13 <Gonozal_VIII> why does it make a difference how fast the vehicles are? every time the window is drawn they have a different position anyways, shouldn't matter if that position is 1 or 10 pixel away from the last
20:42:24 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no YouTube.com Posting"
20:42:30 <fjb> Rotonen: That is good, but you should test the processor with a high load over a few hours.
20:42:35 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no YouTube.com Posting"
20:42:49 <Bjarni> oops... added one space too much :P
20:43:13 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Maybe the game has to do more calculations per time unit for a faster vehicle.
20:43:35 <Rotonen> fjb: memtest does some load on the processor since it is trying to work as fast as possible, afaik.. at least it ramps up the power consumption and heats up the cpu moderately
20:43:52 <Gonozal_VIII> pathfinder for trains... but planes shouldn't require much pathfinding
20:43:57 <fjb> Space? Space is endless? One space? Two spaces? Who cares, they are just alternate realities.
20:44:35 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: well the question is: does the vehicle actually move in every single screen update? If it's slow then it might not need to update the screen every single time
20:45:59 <fjb> Rotonen: Most modern Computers should be stable. When it doesn't crash with your applications it is stable for your needs.
20:46:24 <fjb> It is more difficult to build a stable and enegy efficient system.
20:48:54 <geoff_k_> one thing with xen it has poor memory management but it alows me to run several distros on the same box
20:49:27 <fjb> Why poor memory management?
20:49:31 <geoff_k_> which is better powerwise than running them all on physical boxes
20:50:01 <geoff_k_> i'd say try it on a laptop without the mains but i don't recommend it will kill your battery
20:50:02 <fjb> Jails are far more efficient. :-)
20:51:44 <geoff_k_> there is also lguest now its in mainline kernel 2.6.23 but it has 32bit restrictions which to me are not a problem
20:52:45 <geoff_k_> i doubt that it has any good power management but wouldn't like to expect so
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20:55:24 <geoff_k_> oops i regret to say i should of said power management
21:01:41 <Gonozal_VIII> how is the cargo payment calculated with transfers?
21:02:13 <Rubidium> depends on what version of OTTD you are talking about
21:05:10 <Rubidium> the final payment to your bank account == the payment that would be made when you would've moved the cargo directly in exactly the same time period.
21:05:58 <Rubidium> the virtual payment of the individial vehicles depends on how much they would've made when they would be paid 'normally' between those stations, except for the last train.
21:06:24 <Gonozal_VIII> ah.. and that's trasfer credits + income of the last vehicle...
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21:06:28 <Rubidium> the last trains (virtually) gets (final payment) - (sum of virtual payments to the other trains)
21:07:13 <Gonozal_VIII> so that's why the last vehicle sometimes has negative profit when unloading
21:07:30 <Gonozal_VIII> ok then, thanks :-)
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21:16:18 <Phazorx> hmm... rest of pics are NA
21:17:04 <Phazorx> i cant recognize engine or cars but look like pasicifc union narrow
21:18:37 <Gonozal_VIII> is the first picture a manually colored black&white photo? looks like a mix of photo and painting
21:19:52 <Phazorx> i dont think it is colored
21:20:03 <Phazorx> looks quite genuine in most part aside of bridge
21:20:37 <Phazorx> there are some heavy focusing issues tho
21:20:49 <fjb> The steam makes it looking odd.
21:21:10 <fjb> Like fog in some parts of the picture.
21:21:22 <Gonozal_VIII> well... could be .jpg problem
21:22:11 <Gonozal_VIII> smoke, there's not much steam
21:22:30 <geoff_k_> it looks like a aperture thing with the focus looks real
21:22:33 <Phazorx> it is american engine tho, says rio grande on a side
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21:23:09 <Phazorx> and bridge looks like 3 rails?
21:24:14 <Gonozal_VIII> the right rail looks like a tram rail
21:30:45 <MaSch> i have some trouble while installing openttd 0.6.0 .. after ./configure && make && make install there is only the old version in the /usr/games/bin dir. So i update the directorys manualy... but he dont find the files
21:31:40 <Rubidium> MaSch: it's probably in /usr/local/games or so now
21:32:29 <MaSch> and where i had to put the files from the cd?
21:32:34 <Gonozal_VIII> what's the use of that very wide chimney thing?
21:33:15 <glx> MaSch: you can put them in ~/.openttd
21:33:29 <Gonozal_VIII> to collect rainwater for the engine?^^
21:36:02 <Phazorx> Gonozal_VIII: could be a preheating exchanger there
21:37:16 <Gonozal_VIII> but i agree, it looks like a toy train
21:40:36 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> what's the use of that very wide chimney thing? <-- it contains a net to catch sparks. The firebox is full of burning wood and that makes a whole lot of sparks
21:40:37 <fjb> The wide chimney is there to collect the sparks from the burned wood. You need it when you burn wood instead of coal.
21:40:45 <Bjarni> so it's a "safe the forest" device XD
21:40:49 <MaSch> is there a complete changelog?
21:41:15 <Gonozal_VIII> aaaah thanks for the explanation
21:41:34 <Rubidium> MaSch: see forum post about 0.6.0-beta1
21:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> MaSch: "svn log" ;)
21:41:55 <Gonozal_VIII> i think the last engine would have problems on our electrified lines with that height
21:42:07 <MaSch> dont know how svn works ^^
21:42:10 <Rubidium> although there might be missing some fixes/features that should've been on the list
21:42:33 <Rubidium> but the list is already almost 200 items long (from ~4000 revisions)
21:45:13 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> i think the last engine would have problems on our electrified lines with that height <-- don't be too sure. It might fit and surprisingly trains can go pretty close without danger if they are designed correctly (this one is grounded pretty good)
21:45:25 <Phazorx> Gonozal_VIII: apparently it fits just fine where it is
21:45:26 <Bjarni> USA has higher trains and Big Boys would hit our catenary
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21:46:12 <Bjarni> 4-4-0 is also the most common 19th century design
21:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> only the USA rarely have catenary ;)
21:46:25 <Bjarni> specially America built a zillion of them
21:46:47 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: as well as railtracks and usable modern rolling stock
21:47:28 <Bjarni> a Danish railroad imported some 4-4-0 when the European factories were too busy to meet the deadline... they sucked compared to German/Danish designs and they had a short life
21:47:54 <Gaucho> nobodys play Openttd online?
21:48:17 <Bjarni> I say that the one in the picture looks nice but it's technically not a good one even when it was new
21:49:33 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
21:49:36 <Gonozal_VIII> if you burn wood and there's lots of wood around you probably don't care that much about efficiency
21:50:17 <Phazorx> Bjarni: it's all about looks
21:50:53 <Phazorx> Gonozal_VIII: quite some us, most canada and russia have plenty of wood and gret distances to cover
21:51:17 <Phazorx> russia has a lot of steamers under conservation and they are hybrids, can take heavy oil, coal or wood
21:51:40 <Bjarni> heavy oil sucks for train operation
21:52:20 <Bjarni> it pollutes, smell really REALLY horrible and isn't healthy to be anywhere near
21:52:32 <Phazorx> Bjarni: just an option
21:52:53 <Phazorx> they used to have disiels run exclusively on mazut
21:53:01 <Bjarni> I wonder about that pipe that blows the steam out... why would they want to do that?
21:53:38 <Phazorx> Bjarni: redusing pressure/safety?
21:53:49 <Phazorx> and at elast it is a pretty whistle
21:54:25 <Bjarni> the whole idea is that whenever you make steam escape you do it though the funnel so you create draft in the firebox and that way increase the steam production (use more => produce more)
21:54:41 <Bjarni> it's not a whistle or a safety valve
21:55:04 <Bjarni> looks like it's doing nothing except letting out steam
21:56:03 <Bjarni> notice how the funnel is joined of two pieces... I guess it's done to make it go though really low tunnels or something similar
21:56:28 <Bjarni> take off the funnel when moving the engine from the main repair shop to the place where it's actually used
21:56:50 <Bjarni> good idea if it's somewhat airtight
21:57:06 <Bjarni> but I fear it leaks so much that it hurts performance
21:57:27 <Bjarni> still looks like an ok bulk freight engine
21:57:29 <Phazorx> hmm.. from what i know engines like that where used in part of russia where are no mountains
21:57:29 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe that pipe is to let the steam out when you want to stop the engine?
21:58:28 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> maybe that pipe is to let the steam out when you want to stop the engine? <-- when you want to stop the engine you just close all valves and stop the fire... the whole idea is to keep the water and steam in the boiler so it can start on it next time
21:58:57 <Bjarni> also you don't want it to cool down as boilers that never cools down lasts longer
21:59:01 <Gonozal_VIII> you could want to open it for repairs or something
21:59:30 <Gonozal_VIII> but... what do i know about steam engines... nothing
21:59:45 * Bjarni knows how to drive steam
22:00:13 <Bjarni> it's actually more tricky to shovel coal into them than one might think
22:00:16 <Phazorx> Bjarni: rusty steam or modern?
22:00:54 <Bjarni> you see... they aren't rusty but they are still around 100 years old
22:00:55 <Phazorx> you said you know how :)
22:01:06 <Phazorx> by rusty i mean old :)
22:02:07 <Bjarni> lighting is poor so it's tricky to see that it's actually steam
22:02:28 <Bjarni> but you can make out the boiler and water box
22:02:29 <Phazorx> definately a bit dark
22:02:50 <Bjarni> it's a tunnel... what did you expect? :)
22:03:55 <Bjarni> the railroad added lights on the tracks because it's a dual tracked line and since it's also busy the trains has to dim the headlights
22:05:19 <Bjarni> we don't have mountains so this is a tunnel under a city
22:05:38 <Bjarni> there is a similar tunnel with two tracks right next to it
22:05:40 <Phazorx> something tells me a long tunnel is a bad place for steamer to be
22:05:44 <Phazorx> especialy wood driven one
22:05:55 <Bjarni> for some reason people didn't want those 4 tracks to be at street level
22:06:26 <Bjarni> hmm... that would be interesting
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22:06:43 <Bjarni> during rush our some of the trains can see the taillights of the train in front of them
22:06:58 <Bjarni> not good for road level crossings
22:07:28 <Bjarni> why would it be worse for wood powered ones than coal powered ones?
22:08:00 <Phazorx> seeing taillights? not sure how bright is it, but on strauight run full brightness headlight is visible from horizont, like 15km if weather permits
22:08:22 <Phazorx> Bjarni: CO accumulation
22:08:31 <Phazorx> wood also needs more oxygen
22:08:53 <Phazorx> so you suck out oxygen and replaces it with lots of CO2 and CO in contained space
22:08:54 <Bjarni> it's like when the rear of a train leaves the platform the next train can be entering it (at low speed)
22:09:08 <Phazorx> Bjarni: so that's <1km
22:09:36 <Phazorx> in a train sense that is bumper to bumper
22:10:24 <Bjarni> I had to keep a cool head the first time I was in the rear of a train and another one came around the curve 50 meters behind us
22:10:48 <Phazorx> err... how about signals?
22:11:05 <Phazorx> 50m doesnt sound lie anywhere close to safety condition
22:11:10 <Bjarni> but the thing is that the train controlling computer is aware of this and will ensure say minimum 30 meters between the trains
22:11:19 <Phazorx> it surely isnt enough to stop
22:11:45 <Phazorx> i'd say that depends on weight as well
22:11:55 <Phazorx> but there is some low speed fir which it is enough
22:12:10 <Phazorx> yet train running at that speed arent at best of their efficiency
22:12:18 <Bjarni> the train computer knows how long it takes to brake at any speed and will ensure a safety distance
22:12:34 <Phazorx> i think you trust computers way too much :)
22:13:07 <Bjarni> if the computer isn't running at peak performance, then it reports failure and the driver has to stop at the signals
22:13:07 <Phazorx> probably still better than a human but it doesnt matter who tells me "there is enough room to break" if i see that there isnt :o)
22:13:32 <Bjarni> <Phazorx> yet train running at that speed arent at best of their efficiency <-- this isn't normal... it's called "taking too long to leave the platform"
22:14:34 <Bjarni> well... the thing is they use a signal system with blocks kind of like OpenTTD... the thing is that around busy platforms the blocks are really short
22:15:06 <Bjarni> there is no signal at each block, but the computer is informed what block to stop in
22:15:27 <Bjarni> and there is usually a free block between the that block and the train in front of it
22:16:05 <Phazorx> sounds like SML & FS#1063 kind of issue
22:16:17 <Bjarni> so if it fails to stop due to slippery tracks in combo with a sleeping driver then the trains will still not hit each other
22:17:03 <Phazorx> 50m you mentioned doesnt sound like enough to conmpensate for that i guess
22:17:39 <Bjarni> I think it was like 50 m
22:17:59 <Bjarni> it stopped after driving say 5 meters
22:18:01 <Phazorx> tiny whole between huge trains
22:19:24 <Bjarni> the train I was on was around 150 meters and the one behind us was... well I don't know
22:19:39 <Phazorx> so it isnt all that bad
22:19:43 <Phazorx> just borderline unsafe
22:19:56 <Bjarni> not even borderline unsafe
22:20:13 <Bjarni> this system has been used for years
22:20:23 <Bjarni> no accidents due to system failures at all
22:20:54 <Bjarni> generally our rail safety is almost too good (too expensive)
22:20:58 <Bjarni> nothing really happens
22:21:20 <Phazorx> i dont see that as a fault
22:21:39 <Bjarni> even then train that derailed @160 km/h.... it broke the track and maybe the trailing bogie and that's that
22:22:15 <Bjarni> but I guess the people in the derailed car didn't like it until it stopped
22:23:01 <Bjarni> <Phazorx> i dont see that as a fault <-- the fault is that it's so expensive to operate a railroad that it's not used enough
22:23:36 <Bjarni> maintaining a railroad crossing costs the same as a small apartment every year
22:24:04 <Bjarni> I presume it can be done cheaper without sacrificing safety
22:24:55 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, remove the crossings :-)
22:25:37 <Bjarni> some of the safety issues that increase the price are more or less based on what certain people think (politicians?) rather than actual known safety issues
22:26:04 <Zuu> Btw, (maybe dumb question) are we talking about crossings between rail and road or rail and rail?
22:27:01 <Zuu> rail and rail is perhaps always called junctions in english.. hmm
22:28:01 <Bjarni> I don't like this one: politicians wants to remove a crossing. Local residents (and hence local politicians) wants to keep it. Solution: close it for cars but you can still walk and ride bikes passed it. The crossing stuff is taken down and replaced with something that looks similar, but the bell is not as loud and the train driver is no longer informed if the crossing fails
22:28:54 <Bjarni> how is it increased security to close it for cars, but prevent the train driver from seeing that people can't tell that there is a train coming if it fails?
22:29:33 <Bjarni> I think it's better to put up a sign saying "look for trains" because then people will look. If there is a red light and a bell, then people presume that there is no train if it's off
22:30:41 <Gonozal_VIII> that works if you can see far enough
22:31:15 <Bjarni> elsewhere on the same line they use the look for trains sign and there is a sign for the trains to sound the horn
22:32:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i would use bridges/tunnels everywhere it's possible to do so
22:38:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11469 /trunk/Makefile.src.in: -Fix (r11051): only consider changes in src when detecting modified (M) version
22:38:28 <Bjarni> bridges are more expensive than a "look for trains" sign
22:38:46 <Gonozal_VIII> but that works for cars too
22:40:00 <Bjarni> I was thinking of crossings without cars
22:40:16 <Bjarni> but recently we have a problem at those crossings
22:40:20 <Gonozal_VIII> are there many of those?
22:40:21 <Bjarni> people ignore the trains
22:40:41 <Gonozal_VIII> that's an unhealthy thing to do
22:41:23 <Bjarni> I was driving downhill toward a station and there was a guy with a camera sitting on the tracks recording me. I use the horn for like 5 sec and he stays on the track
22:41:47 <Bjarni> after a break of like 2 sec I use the horn again for like 5 sec and he moves away from the track
22:42:32 <Bjarni> 2 sec later a woman runs out from behind a bush (a rather large one), crosses the tracks and disappears into the forest
22:42:48 <Bjarni> and it was like 20-30 meters in front of me
22:43:02 <Bjarni> nobody should claim not to have heard me
22:43:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11470 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Codechange: add git detection to MSVC (michi_cc)
22:43:15 <Bjarni> and I'm 100% sure she didn't even look at the tracks
22:43:50 <Sacro> there are tracks for other things?
22:44:07 <Bjarni> she didn't look for trains :P
22:44:38 <Bjarni> this is besides the point... she ran across the tracks right in front of the train
22:44:52 <Bjarni> I used the horn again and I don't think she noticed
22:45:09 <Bjarni> maybe she had an MP3 player or something
22:45:27 <Gonozal_VIII> there will always be stupid people like that no matter how much safety
22:45:34 <Zuu> Even if you're deaf you'll feel the vibrations if I'm not wrong?
22:45:49 <Bjarni> police reports that those are a serious issue... people run for fitness and turn them up so loud that they don't hear traffic and accidents happens
22:46:19 <Bjarni> <Zuu> Even if you're deaf you'll feel the vibrations if I'm not wrong? <-- if you are deaf, then you will stop in front of the track and look for trains before crossing
22:46:29 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think you can feel a train through the air or the soft ground in a forrest
22:46:45 <Bjarni> I think I was driving around 30 km/h (approaching station)
22:46:58 <|fjb|> Last year a teenager died on a track. It was night and he was walking home from a disco. He walked along the tracks, because there was no road next to the track. He was stupid enough to listen to a mp3 player, so he didn't hear the train.
22:47:35 <Zuu> Bjarni: For sure you will. And you would look even if you might hear it.
22:47:53 <Gonozal_VIII> should have seen the train lights
22:47:58 <Gonozal_VIII> even from behind
22:48:31 <|fjb|> You don't see the lights of a train coming from behind.
22:48:39 <Bjarni> that depends on the train
22:48:51 <Bjarni> I know an engine where you don't and one where you will for sure
22:48:55 <|fjb|> And probably he was a bit drunk at tired ofcourse.
22:48:59 <Gonozal_VIII> at night without a road and roadlights nearby you do
22:49:28 <Bjarni> some trains use the headlights to be seen, not to see
22:49:37 <|fjb|> Here in germany the train lights usually are not that bright because there are many roads next to the tracks.
22:49:55 <Bjarni> because they are so rarely in conditions where headlights matters for their own vision
22:50:18 <Bjarni> I only dimmed the headlights once due to a road
22:50:36 <Gonozal_VIII> here in austria you would realise that it's getting lighter around you ;-)
22:50:42 <Bjarni> the train didn't move and notice that the headlight was aiming directly on a road
22:51:24 <fjb> I may be too late when it gets bright around you...
22:51:40 <Bjarni> that depends on the speed of the train
22:52:09 <Gonozal_VIII> anyways... how stupid do you have to be to walk around on train tracks while listening to loud music
22:52:34 <Bjarni> if he was on the road, then some random car would have hit him
22:52:41 <fjb> Do you know the Darvin Award?
22:52:45 <Gonozal_VIII> that qualifies for a darwin award
22:53:07 <Bjarni> that's an award that I'm not trying to get
23:00:29 <Bjarni> Sacro: is that a hobby of yours?
23:00:54 <Sacro> Bjarni: killing cartoon rabbits?
23:01:49 <Bjarni> I was more thinking like suicide
23:02:01 <Bjarni> or is it the darwin award you are after?
23:04:02 <Bjarni> it takes a really sick mind to think this up
23:06:27 <Gonozal_VIII> still hasn't finished loading
23:08:37 * fjb once knew the offical keeper of the german suicide faq. :-)
23:08:55 <Gonozal_VIII> wtf suicide faq?
23:09:15 <fjb> A faq about commiting suicide.
23:09:25 <Bjarni> "once knew"... I guess he became too good at the topic
23:10:00 <fjb> No, he was really bad. I guess he is still alive. He made some attempts, but didn't succide.
23:10:04 <Bjarni> if it were up to me, then everybody connected to such a site should be arrested
23:10:45 <fjb> He was (is?) really weird. I'm glad not to meet him anymore.
23:10:59 <oh> failing to properly commit suicide really does have to put someone's self-esteem into negative values
23:11:36 <Bjarni> he had the faq, but he couldn't figure out how to do it himself?
23:12:06 <oh> and damn whoever decided to take the landscape button off railway construction :>
23:14:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11471 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp viewport.cpp viewport.h window.cpp): -Codechange: one more variable retyped to enum ViewportHighlightMode
23:15:28 <SmatZ> oh: you may link the Landscape toolbar with all building toolbars, available since... very old versions. Is it what you are looking for?
23:16:32 <oh> SmatZ: indeed, found it now :P
23:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> i wonder why you always see ludde quitting, but never joining...
23:21:30 <Bjarni> the fact is that he is Q
23:21:49 <Bjarni> all of a sudden he is here without entering
23:21:56 <Bjarni> but we are sure to know when he leaves
23:22:57 <oh> I'm still mourning the fact that it's all over
23:23:12 <Gonozal_VIII> all over what how where?
23:23:23 <Bjarni> you mean that they will not start a new series?
23:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> "all over" in "they are only producing a movie"
23:23:49 <oh> never really managed to get into the movies
23:24:10 <oh> I want a new series, I'd even bloody well settle for a new season of enterprise :<
23:24:31 <oh> complete with that annoying fuckwit archer
23:25:07 <Bjarni> enterprise was a whole lot of special effects, but somehow it lacked what the other series was about
23:25:16 <Bjarni> I don't really like TOS either
23:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> what were the other series about?
23:26:01 <Bjarni> Deep Space 9, The Next Generation, Voyager
23:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> this ST XIII reprise in the alternative universe episode was great
23:26:48 <oh> voyager took some getting into, then it was almost as great as tng
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23:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: ha ha, very funny...
23:28:12 <oh> ANGEHALTEN somehow seems so severe
23:28:30 <Bjarni> DS9 is the best one, the TNG, then Voyager
23:28:45 <Bjarni> the animation... good thing it was only for one season
23:28:57 <SmatZ> I like TNG and original StarTrek series the most...
23:29:05 <SmatZ> didn't like DS9 at all :-x
23:29:32 <Gonozal_VIII> yes jfb but do they also to that with a symmetrical station?
23:29:55 <fjb> I like the DS9 episode where they time travel back to the star treck episode with the tribbles. :-)
23:30:03 <oh> you honestly like the original startrek?
23:30:11 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe trouble with tribbles
23:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> Voyager got really boring and repetitive towards the end...
23:30:35 <Bjarni> yeah it's awesome how they merged those two episodes
23:30:37 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Don't know, I just build that station and it worked out of the box. :-)
23:31:20 <fjb> "That are Klingons? What happend?" "We dont talk about it" :-)
23:32:00 <Gonozal_VIII> i like it how they always choose the last stop with connected drive throughs and don't block everything that way
23:32:08 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause3> Voyager got really boring and repetitive towards the end... <--- same thing happened to enterprise and DS9 (we will fight those aliens...)
23:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: they resolved that somewhere in the last enterprise series
23:32:45 <Bjarni> fjb: yeah that was a nice moment...
23:32:53 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: what was the explanation?
23:32:59 <fjb> I didn't see that. How did they resolve it?
23:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: something about Kahn and the augments
23:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> it was kinda insane how they combined like 3 different stories into that
23:34:30 <Bjarni> err... wait a minute... isn't enterprise BEFORE TOS?
23:34:48 <Bjarni> so they tell about why they change in the future?
23:35:00 *** LeviathNL has joined #openttd
23:35:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually they tell the cause of the change
23:35:32 <Bjarni> now I think I remember
23:35:32 *** gono_ping_timeout has joined #openttd
23:35:52 <ln-> someone said DS9's last seasons are ok, but unfortunately i live in a country where star trek is not shown on tv, at least not all seasons.
23:36:03 <Bjarni> some gene treatment against a disease changed their foreheads, right?
23:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> in enterprise the klingons look like in TNG, which upset a lot of fans
23:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> so they built in this episode about genetic manipulation
23:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> where they explain that the klingons will for several generations look more like humans
23:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> and eventually turn back to their genetic roots
23:37:06 *** TrainzStoffe has joined #openttd
23:37:15 <Bjarni> ln-: it's about the war against the dominion and there are a whole lot of fights... it has the biggest fleets ever used in any star trek series or movie
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23:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have not seen all DS9 seasons
23:37:52 <Tefad> Eddi|zuHause3: nice way to divert limited budget restrictions ; )
23:38:08 <Bjarni> combat and strategic movements are the main issues in the last two seasons
23:38:51 <Bjarni> well, maybe in enterprise too, but then the enemy is the Xindi
23:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> the last episode i remember was that the kardassians took over DS9, and sisko left his baseball
23:39:20 <Bjarni> didn't they control DS9 for more than one episode?
23:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> that was the season final (cliffhanger) i assume
23:40:32 <Tefad> heh, my friend and i watched TNG last summer, and VOY this summer
23:40:45 <Tefad> might do DS9 next summer
23:41:13 <Bjarni> you watch Star Trek during the summer and not during the winter when it's too cold to be outside?
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23:41:38 <Tefad> Bjarni: well winter is a bit hectic for scheduling view time
23:41:55 <Tefad> star trek fills in the re-run season
23:42:13 <Tefad> winter involves much planning for a convention we run
23:42:19 <Bjarni> there is no need to watch TV at the moment here
23:42:20 <oh> besides, winter is the time to be outside anyway
23:42:22 <gono_ping_timeout> and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics
23:42:37 <Bjarni> I turned it on today to verify that I didn't want to watch any of it
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23:43:06 <oh> download some heroes or house
23:43:22 <Tefad> i've yet to watch any heroes
23:43:22 <gono_ping_timeout> house is cool :-)
23:43:29 <Tefad> it took a while to get my friend into house
23:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> heroes is great :)
23:43:32 <oh> the misguided critics here all rated heroes at the bottom of the scale
23:43:40 <Bjarni> <gono_ping_timeout> and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics <-- well... my house is too small to have locomotives in it so I have to go outside to get to them :s
23:43:51 <Tefad> he tends to like soap-box hospital shows
23:44:09 <oh> two shows you really should watch
23:44:09 *** TrainzStoffe is now known as Stoffe
23:44:09 <gono_ping_timeout> but then you're inside the locos, that counts as inside too :-)
23:44:16 *** gono_ping_timeout is now known as Gonozal_VIII
23:44:37 <Tefad> i watch grey's anatomy and now private practice
23:44:51 <Tefad> it's.. something to create a social event.. and to waste time : )
23:44:54 <Bjarni> <gono_ping_timeout> but then you're inside the locos, that counts as inside too :-) <-- not really... I can be everywhere around them
23:45:05 <Bjarni> including underneath and on top of them
23:45:08 <Tefad> we've watched eureka and battlestar galactica
23:45:09 <oh> girlfriend tried getting me into grey's but it's seems too drama-filled to me :<
23:45:21 <Tefad> alias and lost are also winners
23:45:38 <Tefad> .. eureka.. "A Town Called Eureka"
23:45:45 <Gonozal_VIII> i just don't get lost
23:45:54 <Tefad> to watch lost you have to start at the beginning
23:45:58 <Tefad> and you have to like suspense.
23:46:10 <glx> season 2 was not that good
23:46:13 <Tefad> and a little bit of x-files thrown in for fun.
23:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Bjarni> <gono_ping_timeout> and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics <-- well... my house is too small to have locomotives in it so I have to go outside to get to them :s <- you either need to make your house bigger or the locomotives smaller
23:47:20 <oh> when I watch lost I get the feeling I'm watching the rerun of last night's show
23:47:44 <oh> they spend half the episodes reiterating :/
23:47:51 <Gonozal_VIII> the village in reverse :S
23:48:11 <Bjarni> I think I have a link that beat's ln-'s when it comes to being a geek
23:48:16 <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: sounds about right.
23:48:52 <Gonozal_VIII> yes it does to you because you said that but i can't imagine what the village in reverse would be
23:49:10 <Tefad> the people in the village? know they're in "the village"
23:49:24 <Tefad> the outsiders are the clueless ones
23:49:29 <ln-> Bjarni: the "photos" at the page i linked are clearly 3D models rendered.
23:49:45 <Tefad> and there are some other twists.
23:49:49 <Bjarni> but my link is for real
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23:51:10 <Bjarni> press play on tape is kind of a weird collection of CS students, but somehow the idea is cool
23:51:30 <fjb> Bjarni should kick himself for posting YouTube links...
23:52:04 *** fjb was kicked by Bjarni (you shouldn't tell me what to do to myself)
23:52:53 <Bjarni> besides I already removed that rule once
23:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> i guess i am not geek enough to know "cannon fodder"
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