IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-04-28
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00:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> elmex_: do you change nick to "aronal" in the morning?
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08:36:52 <dihedral> anybody up for some ottd chat?
08:38:40 <dihedral> let industries have an increase in production, even if they reach 32/40
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08:46:41 <elmex> hmm, where do i bring good to usually?
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09:24:51 <Wolf01> are the depots the problem?
09:24:57 <TrueBrain> no, the login to that page is
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09:42:00 <elmex> yay, debian 64 has openttd
09:42:12 <elmex> how could i eve miss this game
10:01:26 <dihedral> is there a reason why 35/40 T productions dont increase anymore?
10:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you transport more than 70%, the chances of increasing are 1/3 and decreasing is 2/3, i believe
10:04:20 <dihedral> this is during the cause of the entire game
10:04:40 <dihedral> there should then be a chance of them reaching 117T or so
10:04:57 <Noldo> btw what is the point in thet 70% limit?
10:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> i believe the reasoning was that you "deplete" the industry
10:06:46 <dihedral> so if you transport 90% will the chances of an increase rise?
10:06:53 <Noldo> that mechanic would be ok for something like fishing or huntin where you shouldn't overfish or overhunt
10:07:20 <Noldo> but there is only so much ore in the area of a mine
10:07:45 <Noldo> it doesn't mate and reproduce
10:08:10 <dihedral> that is why you dont see 5 ore mines next to eachother
10:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> don't shout at me... i did not design this
10:09:25 <dihedral> and who was shouting?
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10:14:18 <RobertGrammig> I deliver wood directly to a sawmill but the lorrys wont sell it... do I need something else for the sawmill to work?
10:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> are you sure the station accepts goods?
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10:21:13 <RobertGrammig> no ok your right it is overlapping with the coverage area of the lorry station, but it actually did not display to accept wood
10:21:26 <RobertGrammig> now its working ;)
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10:41:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9731 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#677]: in news history, newlines weren't replaced with spaces, making it look ugly from time to time
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10:48:29 <elmex> i'm really bad at difficulty medium :-(
10:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> start with easy then ;)
10:53:28 <elmex> with easy i was able to repay my loan and gain money like hay
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11:01:21 <Ammller> Hello, I need some help for compiling ottd
11:01:59 <Ammller> I'm using more than one revision of ottdc and also some patched
11:02:20 <Ammller> Is it possible to compile directly in a spcial folder?
11:05:16 <Rubidium> isn't it much easier to have multiple checkouts if you want to compile more than one revision and patched versions?
11:05:48 <Ammller> every checkout needs 80 MB
11:06:34 <Ammller> the bin alone about 30 MB
11:07:30 <Maedhros> actually, my openttd dir seems to be 219mb somehow
11:07:51 <Rubidium> Maedhros: lots of stale svn data
11:08:12 <Rubidium> Ammller: what versions are you trying to compile?
11:08:17 <Ammller> possible to give a attribute with configure that BIN_DIR will change
11:08:28 <elmex> wow, ok, long distances really pay ogg
11:08:51 <Ammller> Rubidium: mostly actual nightlies
11:09:38 <Rubidium> Ammller: just copy the whole binary directory after compilation, otherwise evt. grf updates won't propagate properly
11:10:49 <Ammller> than its easyier to keep their own co's for every version
11:11:42 <Ammller> because I like to keep openttd.cfg and the grfs
11:13:03 <Ammller> but to be clear, if I would change BIN_DIR in the makefile manually, that could get problems?
11:13:26 <Rubidium> yes, because then you won't have the latest OTTD grfs
11:16:10 <Ammller> ah, didn't realize that, bin isn't empty on checkout
11:27:03 <elmex> astonishing how ineffective railroads are for short distances
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12:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> we once had an earthquake here
12:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> it was overnight, i did not notice it, but the people nearer to the center did
12:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, Halle (Saale)
13:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> a salt mine collapsed, afaik
13:11:01 <elmex> these giant-screenshots rock
13:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> not if you try to make a giant screenshot of a 2048x2048 map :p
13:15:46 <neli> took couple of minutes, was 500MB orso ?
13:28:14 <elmex> the computer enemies are no real enemy, are they?
13:31:34 <yeti_> well, they are because they're building really stupid railways that are in your way all the time :)
13:32:55 <nairan> the devs are doing some basic stuff for ai so ppls can programm new ais
13:33:03 <nairan> but all is at developement
13:33:34 <nairan> they work at several differnet stuff
13:34:50 <yeti_> is openttd written from scratch or did TTD's developer give out his sources because it was so old, and the openttd devs improved it?
13:35:27 <elmex> rewriting it from scratch must have been an awful amount of work
13:37:21 <Rubidium> it's written without TTD's original source code
13:39:00 <Rubidium> and TTD's been written in assembly IIRC
13:39:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9732 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_class.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: GCC 2.95 doesn't like SQConvert::Bla inside a template. Use 'using namespace' to avoid. This re-enables MorphOS target for NoAI branch.
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14:02:58 <yeti__> cargo delivery is paid by distance - does openttd use the point-to-point direct distance or the number of tiles the train went through to calculate that?
14:03:41 <Rubidium> Manhattan point (of original station)-to-point (of final destination station)
14:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> distance between the station signs, to be exact
14:10:43 <Wolf01> repos/proj/trunk and repos/proj/branch, i have to create 2 repositories?
14:11:36 <Wolf01> (i'm talking server sided)
14:12:35 <Maedhros> no, just make repos/proj, and trunk and branch can be directories within the repository
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14:13:59 <Wolf01> i did so, put the authorizations but when i checkout it says "svnserve.conf option expected"
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14:30:42 <Szandor> that way, people with JS turned off can still see the changelog
14:35:26 <TrueBrain> and what if people have CSS disabled?
14:36:49 <Szandor> then it would behave the same way it does now, i.e. show all the time
14:45:32 <Szandor> Also, if the starting html read "The list of changes for today's nightly is the following:", i.e. without the [hide changelog] span, non-JS people would never know what they were missing.
14:46:04 <Szandor> (although that's a presentation thing, so not as important as the currently missing functionality)
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15:06:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r9734 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add an option to automatically pause when starting a new game.
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15:48:55 <HMage> something happening to the hosting?
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16:42:22 <TrueBrain> how about a chan song?
16:42:27 <TrueBrain> Lalalalalalalaaaaaaaa
16:43:16 <TrueBrain> doh, out of diskspace....
16:43:20 <TrueBrain> checkout of 20GiB....
16:52:08 <TrueBrain> asking for a kick, most likely :p
16:52:16 <dihedral> is it coincidence that the intercontinental airfield is 9/11 tiles?
16:52:31 <TrueBrain> there is always something to find
16:54:31 <dihedral> hey TrueBrain, is there a reason that production industries done increase after reaching a low (32/40T)
16:57:06 <dihedral> if you right click to scroll around the map
16:57:14 <dihedral> and while doing so press alt-tab
16:57:20 <dihedral> to switch to another app
16:57:29 <dihedral> and hit alt-tab again to come back to the game
16:57:38 <TrueBrain> industries only have an upper and lwoer limit, there is no reason for any industry to not increase after any value
16:57:39 <dihedral> it seems like ottd remembered the right click
16:58:03 <dihedral> and moving the mouse (with no buttons clicked) will scroll the map
16:58:08 <TrueBrain> althought some industries never increase
16:58:26 <dihedral> TrueBrain: seems like e.g. a forrest down at 32 or 35T will not increase ever again
16:58:55 <dihedral> i have seen that with all industries down at that level
16:59:02 <dihedral> never seen them come out of that hole again
16:59:21 <dihedral> not even when transporting all there is
16:59:32 <TrueBrain> industries don't care if you transport or not
16:59:41 <TrueBrain> (okay, they do, but not much :p)
17:00:01 <TrueBrain> /* If you transport > 60%, 66% chance we increas
17:00:01 <TrueBrain> e, else 33% chance we increase */
17:00:54 <TrueBrain> of course if it is different if you allow small economy changes
17:01:23 <dihedral> > (okay, they do, but not much :p) < lol
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17:02:08 <dihedral> i have smooth eco enabled, yes
17:02:18 <TrueBrain> then some other rules apply :p
17:03:33 <TrueBrain> if (CHANCE16I(20, 1024, r))
17:03:33 <TrueBrain> new_prod -= ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
17:03:33 <TrueBrain> if (CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16))
17:03:33 <TrueBrain> new_prod += ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
17:04:04 <TrueBrain> (as soon as you transport anything, changes of an industry getting better with smooth economy is bigger than decreasing)
17:04:35 <dihedral> just seems to never happen with the extreem lows
17:05:03 <TrueBrain> dihedral: you are right, it can happen in fact, with very low values
17:05:20 <TrueBrain> @calc (50 + 10 * 1) >> 8
17:05:20 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
17:05:22 <dihedral> it can happen in fact...
17:05:26 <TrueBrain> hehe, shifting doesn't work :p
17:05:29 <TrueBrain> @calc (50 + 10 * 1) / 256
17:05:38 <Ailure> I wish industries were a little bit more dynamic than that
17:05:39 <TrueBrain> @calc (50 + 10 * 5) / 256
17:05:43 <TrueBrain> @calc (50 + 10 * 10) / 256
17:05:43 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.5859375
17:05:46 <TrueBrain> @calc (50 + 10 * 20) / 256
17:05:47 <Ailure> Also it always bothered me that like
17:05:48 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.9765625
17:05:55 <Ailure> What happens to the cargo that isn't transported? ;)
17:05:56 <TrueBrain> production values of < 20 never recover :p Hehe :)
17:06:02 <TrueBrain> Ailure: flushed away!
17:06:11 <Ailure> Thoose poor passengers
17:06:33 <Ailure> After all, they're cargo too ;)
17:06:41 <dihedral> TrueBrain: seems like production values <40 never increase
17:06:48 <Cipri> I always love having several thousand passengers waiting on a bouy ^.^
17:06:50 <dihedral> that is what it looks like in the game
17:07:09 <Ailure> Bouys are pretty much a dead neutral station
17:07:19 <Ailure> still I never tried doing that
17:07:20 <TrueBrain> dihedral: I have no idea what the factor between ingame value and incode values are, incode is it around 20
17:08:13 * Cipri wonders about /increasing/ cargo output. Is it true there's a golden zone to keep your "Transported %" in to increase thecargo produced?
17:08:18 <dihedral> btw. loading the configfile after a game and before the new game on a dedicated server would be great
17:08:29 <dihedral> that way one could make amendments for the next game
17:09:04 <dihedral> ie change from tropical map to arctic
17:09:31 <Cipri> Y'always hear peple say "Keep it between 50 and 66", or "60-80". But I couldn't find anythig about that in the wiki.
17:10:02 <TrueBrain> Cipri: as such actions aren't documented
17:10:19 <TrueBrain> they are just side-effects of the algorithms used, and can (and do) change over time
17:11:08 <TrueBrain> Cipri: but currently: keep above 60% of smooth economy is OFF... and when it is on, the higher the better ;)
17:13:27 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
17:14:11 <Cipri> Didn't you just say the same thing twice? ;)
17:14:29 <TrueBrain> Nah, just summurizing
17:15:04 <Cipri> In that las sentence. >60% /without/ SmoothEco, as high as possible /with/ SmoothEco
17:15:35 <TrueBrain> yes. When smooth is off, it doesn't matter if iti s 61 or 99
17:15:40 <TrueBrain> when it is on, it does
17:15:56 <_42_> Sacro, Celestar is on #openttd.tgp right now.
17:17:49 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 3 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Celestar> @openttd 738
17:18:16 <_Ben_> hmm, having some difficulty finding out what the 256 colours are that can be used on sprites. Is it the same set of colours that I would have remaining if I saved a file to 256 colour from mspaint?
17:18:38 <_Ben_> If not, is there a image anywhere that I could use to colour sample, does anyone know?
17:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> _Ben_: try docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif
17:24:08 <_Ben_> Eddi|zuHayse2: Thanks, thats exactly what I was looking for
17:24:55 <_Ben_> Eddi|zuHause2* even, oops.
17:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's what they invented the <tab>-completition for :)
17:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> what's wrong with the word?
17:27:56 <TrueBrain> haha, it was a joke :p
17:29:27 <_Ben_> hmm, The gif is animated. For makeing sprites for the original scenario, wich of the frames shoudl I go by?
17:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> the animated sprites are for water and stuff
17:32:54 <_Ben_> Ok, now I'm pretty confused. I knew the water tiles appeared differently but used the same sprites, but I thourght that each frame in the animation (1 of 4?) had a seperate sprite still
17:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it is palette animation
17:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> the same pallete index gets different real colours
17:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> so all pixels with that palette index change appearence
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17:38:29 <_Ben_> hmm, I just checked newwaterw_412 and it appears to have 4 sprites for 1 water tile. Is that because the colours change relative to the pallet, and also moved around relative to the tiles?
17:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> i do not know about newwater
17:44:07 <Maedhros> newwater uses action 7s to choose which sprites to show based on the climate
17:47:26 <_Ben_> hmm, this is beyond me I think. I was going to try and make some sloping river sprites, and I've made some, but I first need to check all the colours are ok, and 2nd (it now seems) I need to do a hell of a lot more to them also
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17:50:00 <_Ben_> and it would seem, unless I'm not understanding it correctly, that it would be inposible to have the slopeing tiles apear different shades, as the land does, since the colours are defined by the scenario rather than the sprite.
17:54:38 <Maedhros> i wouldn't use newwater as an example, personally ;)
17:55:19 <Maedhros> it's designed to do something different, and since this hasn't been finished yet it can be changed to allow anything that's needed
18:01:59 <_Ben_> I can't seem to find the original sprites used for water. Are there any other grf's that I could look at to try to understand what I would need to do?
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18:05:08 <Maedhros> the water and coast sprites are sprites 4061--4069 in trg1r.grf
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18:05:59 <Peakki> hi! how do i kick someone from my server?
18:06:14 <TrueBrain> try 'kick' in console
18:08:26 <Cipri> Hmm. is there a reason the Martian lanscape isn't supported?
18:09:41 <Maedhros> it (mostly) works, here
18:10:05 <Maedhros> the fact that openttd doesn't yet support newindustries means you still get toyland industries unfortunately
18:13:22 <Digitalfox[Home]> Maedhros: The "Start a game in pause" is really a nice feature :) Thanks..
18:13:46 <Digitalfox[Home]> I always pause a game when it starts :)
18:14:18 <Maedhros> yeah, i found i was doing it a lot too :)
18:15:36 <Digitalfox[Home]> Are you working on other new feature?
18:16:28 <Maedhros> not really; i've got too much work to do at the moment
18:17:44 <_Ben_> ok, I think I understand this water now after a lot of staring. It just leaves me wondering. Is the 1 sprite that is in trg1r just that colour because that is windows pallet? but then the game translates it differently?
18:21:08 <Maedhros> yes. some of the blue colours are magic colours which get palette cycled to give you the animation
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18:25:26 <_Ben_> those colours (217-226) don't appear in the pallet in as a fixed colour it would seem. so it would not be posible to make a water tile fitting, but unanimated. right?
18:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> shading colours are not a good idea before 32bpp
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19:24:35 <UndernotBuilder> will be an account system really lame-proof?
19:28:32 <UndernotBuilder> so when a lamer creates an account for... well, laming, when he starts to.... lame his account is banned and because the email is already in use by the banned account he needs to create other email, thing which be prevented if we ban the ip / MAC addresses (for dynamics ip's)
19:30:15 <UndernotBuilder> why? that is possible on other mp games
19:31:27 <Maedhros> they're easy to spoof, so there's no point
19:31:36 *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
19:31:41 <valhallasw> a mac ban is always client side
19:32:03 <UndernotBuilder> then why in other multiplayer games is possible?
19:32:04 <Cipri> Servers can't see the mac address, they only get the IP
19:32:26 <valhallasw> UndernotBuilder: it doesn't work :p
19:32:30 <Cipri> Sure, you could make it so that openttd transmits its mac address.
19:32:36 <valhallasw> just spoof the mac address transmission
19:32:45 <Sacro> a) spoof mac address using ifconfig
19:32:46 <Cipri> What's to prevent someone from creating a patch that sends a random mac
19:33:09 <valhallasw> c) spoof mac address by changing tcp packets
19:33:27 <UndernotBuilder> I thought that the mac address is inchangeable
19:33:28 <valhallasw> (eg. changing the 'mac address'-data sent by openttd by sniffing-and-changing)
19:33:41 <valhallasw> it isn't, and it is not checkable by the server
19:33:47 <Sacro> UndernotBuilder: its kinda pointless in an open source game
19:33:57 <UndernotBuilder> and if one edits the source he will desync/versionmismatched
19:33:59 <Sacro> so you ban my mac address - AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF
19:34:04 <valhallasw> UndernotBuilder: erm, not.
19:34:09 <valhallasw> 21:33 < Sacro> UndernotBuilder: its kinda pointless <-- fix.
19:34:12 <Sacro> so i tell openttd to say mine is FF:DD:EE:CC:BB:AA
19:34:18 <Sacro> you have no way of checking
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19:35:18 <valhallasw> and even *if* you get a version mismatch... change your MAC with ifconfig
19:35:33 <valhallasw> or hack your packet filter
19:35:34 <Maedhros> desyncs only happen if the game state doesn't match
19:35:44 <Maedhros> the mac address has nothing to do with the game state
19:35:45 <valhallasw> or (insert 23 other ways of fooling the server)
19:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> <UndernotBuilder> and if one edits the source he will desync/versionmismatched <- you can as well change the version string
19:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> and desync only happens if you change game code
19:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> not some hypothetical mac transmission
19:36:27 <UndernotBuilder> well, hacking the game is changing code
19:36:46 <valhallasw> changing code == changing the way the game *works*
19:36:56 <valhallasw> eg. trains that have different physics
19:37:08 <valhallasw> or mines that have different production settings
19:37:28 <valhallasw> not a *string* that is sent *once* to the server, without any *game* state information
19:38:01 <Cipri> Maybe we could contact Valve, and have openttd run through Steam.
19:38:17 <valhallasw> Cipri: since when did steam run on osx?
19:38:22 <Sacro> its hardly likely to desync if you change it
19:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> exactly, you can easily just send a random number instead of a MAC
19:38:36 <Sacro> or os/2 or beos or GP2X or ... etc
19:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> the only place where you can check MACs directly is in a LAN
19:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you need a direct connection
19:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> everything that goes beyond direct cable connection needs a higher level protocol (IP)
19:40:33 <Sacro> mmm, could try using private/public keys
19:40:39 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause2: everything that passes a router
19:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's what i said
19:41:20 <valhallasw> a switch is hardly a direct cable connection
19:55:20 <elmex> heh, i'm already at difficulty hard
19:58:36 <UndernotBuilder> well so leave the lamers to lame everything?
19:59:48 <UndernotBuilder> well I will not consider laming inside gaming
20:00:16 <TrueBrain> we can make payed accounts :p
20:00:19 <UndernotBuilder> laming is too stupid to be considered a type of gaming
20:00:57 <Maedhros> i'm loving the concept of "lame" being a verb, personally ;)
20:02:09 <UndernotBuilder> well but some good considerations to enhance a bit the security system in ottd:
20:02:28 <UndernotBuilder> 1. ask for a password when company is created
20:02:48 <UndernotBuilder> 2. ask before someone conects to your company
20:03:20 <TrueBrain> sounds like you have work to do! :)
20:03:23 <Maedhros> 2. what happens if you're not actually playing at the moment?
20:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> valhallasw: no, a switch simulates ethernet, so it is transparent for MACs
20:03:28 <Maedhros> 3. waay to open to abuse
20:03:39 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause2: hmyes
20:03:55 <valhallasw> still not true direct cable :p
20:04:49 <UndernotBuilder> 2. if someone joins your company and you are busy, the other will need to wait for your answer
20:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is totally stupid
20:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. for coop servers
20:06:17 <UndernotBuilder> 3. if all the players in a game are lamer and vote to kick a person what is doing the genuine player there?
20:06:51 <valhallasw> except a kick generally includes a ban
20:06:53 <UndernotBuilder> 2. in coop servers if someone wants to join there is always other that can accept/reject it
20:07:05 <valhallasw> which means lamers can take over a server
20:07:15 <valhallasw> 22:06 < UndernotBuilder> 2. in coop servers if someone wants to join there is always other that can accept/reject it <-- bs. our server is *empty* most of the time
20:07:23 <valhallasw> and people idle. a lot.
20:07:49 <UndernotBuilder> but again, what's doing the genuine in the lamers server?
20:08:16 <valhallasw> the *server* is not *owned* by the lamers
20:08:39 <UndernotBuilder> but the lamers can take over a server
20:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> UndernotBuilder: scenario: 2 genuine players. 3 (clone) lamers, guess who outvotes?
20:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> your "concept" definitely does not work out
20:09:50 <UndernotBuilder> 4. the starter of a company can kick the people that comes into his company
20:10:01 <UndernotBuilder> *only* the starter
20:10:34 <valhallasw> who is the starter?
20:11:02 <valhallasw> by which I mean: how do you check person A is the starter?
20:11:09 <valhallasw> what if he parts and joins
20:12:35 <UndernotBuilder> then include in a variable the player id of the creator
20:12:50 <UndernotBuilder> that cannot be faked
20:12:53 <valhallasw> player id changes after a part and rejoin
20:13:39 <Maedhros> and then your back to ip addresses and passwords
20:14:03 <Maedhros> my english isn't doing too well today...
20:14:18 <valhallasw> so I get disconnected because my provider thinks this is a good moment to change my dynamic IP and I'm no longer the owner
20:14:28 <UndernotBuilder> while the creator is inside the server his id can't change and it cannot be duplicated
20:15:02 <UndernotBuilder> and the id and ip are two things separated
20:15:20 <Cipri> hmm. Why am I charged $50 a month, without having built anything?
20:15:57 <Maedhros> loan interest, probably
20:16:46 <Cipri> No loan, no hq, nothing. Brand new game with the loan repayed on Jan 1st.
20:17:07 <mikegrb> Cipri: fee for the air you breathe ;)
20:17:09 <Maedhros> where is it in the expenses list?
20:17:46 <UndernotBuilder> the id and ip are two things separated right?
20:17:50 <valhallasw> yes UndernotBuilder
20:18:00 <valhallasw> I would expect something like $1200 actually
20:18:13 <UndernotBuilder> then if your ip changes then how your id can change?
20:18:18 <valhallasw> maybe $50 isn't that bad :p
20:18:30 <valhallasw> UndernotBuilder: because you will get disconnected when your IP changes :P
20:18:30 <Maedhros> if you disconnect from the game (voluntarily or otherwise)
20:18:47 <valhallasw> Cipri: it is the money to pay for your food 8)
20:19:13 <UndernotBuilder> then what should we do to prevent lamers?
20:19:50 <glx> password for game and companies
20:20:03 <UndernotBuilder> and 4. can be fixed with account system
20:20:26 <UndernotBuilder> even so the lamers can act
20:21:41 <UndernotBuilder> a lame starts to create trains only to destroy other companys trains
20:21:52 <UndernotBuilder> there he doesn't needs a password :)
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20:47:58 <RobertGrammig> is it completely random how the production amounts of e.g. a sawmill fluctuate?
20:48:50 <TrueBrain> not completely, but yes
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20:51:09 <valhallasw> RobertGrammig: as random as the amount of wood you bring to it
20:51:16 <valhallasw> id? I fail in englidh.
20:51:25 <TrueBrain> I hope your study goes better :p
20:51:55 <valhallasw> and my confidence in informatica has dropped even more
20:52:09 <valhallasw> I got an A- for a memory leaking piece of garbage
20:52:22 <TrueBrain> they can't handle people who knows what they do :p
20:52:45 <valhallasw> now the point is.. for my last assignment, I've created a C proof of concept
20:52:50 <TrueBrain> although I was the only one in my year who got an A for PM :p
20:53:08 <valhallasw> which uses 2n^2+4n+2 memory instead of 2n^2
20:53:19 <RobertGrammig> ok sorry I meant forest of course
20:53:34 <RobertGrammig> I got a nice coverage 70-80% but it keep dropping
20:53:38 <valhallasw> now, theoretically I could reduce it to 2n^2, but that would cost processing powah
20:53:43 <TrueBrain> RobertGrammig: smooth economy off: move 60% away. If on, move as many as you can. Helps increasing a lot.
20:53:58 <TrueBrain> RobertGrammig: but there is always a chance of dropping, it stays a forest :)
20:54:09 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: it is always a balance :)
20:54:20 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: most part of our job here is balance memory against CPU :)
20:55:36 <TrueBrain> what I hate most about informatica, is that they give you less points of you did not a very tiny part
20:55:40 <TrueBrain> while you did add tons of other things
20:55:46 <TrueBrain> bad balance in score ;)
20:56:23 <RobertGrammig> and just as a general question if i have cities a,b,c on one line with similar distances, but a and c are really big cities and b ist small, is it more rewarding to have no stop at B?
20:56:51 <TrueBrain> RobertGrammig: find out yourself! :)
20:57:06 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: my memory leak meant you could only run the algorithm once
20:57:13 <RobertGrammig> come on tell me ^^
20:57:21 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: they only test what you give them :p
20:58:00 <RobertGrammig> or just in general, does passenger payoff depend on target city distance and size or is it fixed?
20:58:32 <TrueBrain> RobertGrammig: it is in the wiki. Cargo depends on distance over time; see cargo payment graphic.
20:59:28 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: informatica is about doing the stuff that is asked; lets rephrase your sentence: "you hate it when a (ottd-)patch is not accepted because it trashes Windows support, while it add a lot of other things"
20:59:41 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nah, they are much more childish
21:00:09 <glx> you need to do it how they think you'll do it
21:00:20 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I missed one tiny bit of thing, therefor not awarded some big bonus point, not even partly; the point was that they in no way stimulate to do anything extra besides the assignment
21:02:33 <Rubidium> that's not my biggest problem; that's that everybody whom's application seems to work gets (during a 1 minute demonstration) 8 (out of 10) regardless of the quality of the code
21:03:16 <TrueBrain> that is also a big stupidity yes
21:03:27 <TrueBrain> make fake output, and you come a long way :p
21:03:39 <TrueBrain> (if you can hide it clever code-wise, you will even get it done totally :p)
21:05:01 <Rubidium> >>> Map readed, converting..
21:05:25 <Rubidium> it's without the ed :)
21:05:40 <TrueBrain> haha, you are so right :) But, wrong chan ;)
21:06:14 <valhallasw> Rubidium: that was exactly my point
21:06:43 <valhallasw> with a memory leak as big as mine, I was surprised I scored higher than a simple pass grade
21:07:51 <valhallasw> that's the entire algorithm, and, apart from reading the problem, it does everything asked
21:08:08 <valhallasw> oh, wait, it's not OOP
21:08:46 <valhallasw> but OOP is BS if you don't care about memory leaks
21:09:36 <Rubidium> what should that piece of code do?
21:10:37 <valhallasw> n persons, each with a study studies[i]
21:10:44 <TrueBrain> connection to that website is cut somewhere along the line...
21:11:14 <valhallasw> then my lovely speedtouch home is b0rked again
21:12:11 <valhallasw> it runs on port 22 externally (yes, ssh runs on 443... proxy reasons)
21:13:18 <valhallasw> my last assignment did
21:13:30 <TrueBrain> ah, sorry, then I mistunderstood you :p
21:14:05 <valhallasw> now I wonder, is there an png/svg/etc viewer that can be piped to?
21:14:20 <TrueBrain> piped to what / as what?
21:14:31 <valhallasw> ./a.out | circo -Tpng | imageviewer
21:19:30 <Rubidium> I really wonder what is OO about the assignment
21:20:04 <Rubidium> especially because the assignment states that one class is enough
21:20:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the quality of our informatica courses :)
21:21:51 <Rubidium> yeah, there are some rumours some teacher isn't allow to give "programmeren 1 & 2" anymore because he gives too many people a fail-grade
21:22:42 <Rubidium> the real problem is the fact that the grading, course and lectures haven't changed the last few years, only the students that somehow can't cope with the course
21:23:26 <valhallasw> well, if I see the current informatica students in leiden...
21:23:46 <valhallasw> they generally do worse than math or physics students
21:31:04 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: ./a.out | circo -Tpng | xv -
21:31:25 <valhallasw> but the gimp doesnt understand -
21:31:37 <TrueBrain> does the trcik most of the time
21:31:41 <valhallasw> 'not a regular file'
21:31:44 <valhallasw> been there, done that
21:31:58 <TrueBrain> so dump it to a temp :p
21:32:20 <valhallasw> pipes are a programmers wet dream
21:32:38 <TrueBrain> make a small script :p
21:32:42 <Rubidium> valhallasw: 'fix' gimp
21:35:27 <Rubidium> ugh... why do they try to translate (almost) every english computer term to Dutch, makes it really difficult to read
21:40:40 <valhallasw> Rubidium: because they suck
21:40:45 <Rubidium> Knapzakprobleem <- tsss
21:41:25 <Rubidium> oh, Knapzakprobleem is from the HC4 sheets
21:41:51 <valhallasw> but the worst is the term 'dynamisch programmeren'
21:42:05 <valhallasw> call it caching, saving subresults, but not 'dynamic programming'
21:42:25 <valhallasw> there is *absolutely* nothing dynamic about it
21:42:47 <valhallasw> it would be dynamic *programming* when the algorithm edits itself to solve the problem faster
21:43:04 <TrueBrain> no, that is genetic programming :p
21:43:16 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: ofcourse not
21:43:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you do know what a ':p' means, right?
21:43:38 <Rubidium> genetic programming is an application spawning lots of different applications that should do the same and taking the best of them
21:44:38 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: bad description btw, or rather: poor ;)
21:44:53 <TrueBrain> as you miss one very important key element: by genetic evolution
21:45:22 <TrueBrain> (as in the 3 key element: mutation, crossover and duplication)
21:45:24 * Rubidium prepends the previous statement with while (true) ;)
21:47:10 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: ./a.out | circo -Tpng | epiphany file:///dev/stdin seems to work *yay*
21:47:48 * Rubidium thinks valhallasw' algo course misses one important part: NP vs NPC
21:47:53 <TrueBrain> > [stats]: Germany, heightmap
21:47:54 <TrueBrain> > [stats]: highest value: 2610 meters
21:47:54 <TrueBrain> > [stats]: lowest value : -169 meters
21:47:54 <TrueBrain> > [stats]: avg height : 103 meters
21:47:55 <TrueBrain> > [stats]: sea: : 58%
21:48:22 <TrueBrain> my sea calculation is ... wrong :p
21:49:58 <valhallasw> Rubidium: the course lacks every part of algorithm complexity
21:50:06 <valhallasw> there is some very basic order stuff in there
21:50:22 <valhallasw> but nothing more than 'this algorithm is order N. period.'
21:50:46 <Rubidium> there is some 'how to calculate the order' in the course
21:50:52 <valhallasw> so I fail to see the WO in this course... it should be well-suited for HBO-informatica
21:51:10 <TrueBrain> he, Rome isn't built in one day either
21:51:37 <TrueBrain> you needed courses of a level < 500 (HBO level)
21:51:54 <Rubidium> it misses the 'proof this function is O(n^2)' or 'proof this problem cannot be solved in O(n)'
21:51:55 <TrueBrain> else you get crazy :p
21:51:57 <valhallasw> that is the biggest BS I've ever heard
21:52:16 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: really, Rome isn't built in one day. Look it up!
21:52:28 <valhallasw> WO level-100 courses should NOT be the same level as HBO level-100 courses
21:52:41 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: no, and if you read what I write, I never said that
21:52:52 <valhallasw> you are comparing HBO levels to WO levels
21:52:52 <TrueBrain> all < 500 level courses can be done by a HBO student at some stage
21:53:02 <TrueBrain> I do not compate HBO levels
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21:53:11 <TrueBrain> I only talk about Leiden University course levels
21:53:33 <valhallasw> you are grading an HBO student by WO levels
21:53:49 <TrueBrain> You should look up how the levels of courses are created :)
21:54:07 <valhallasw> well, that would probably explain why informatica in leiden sucks that much
21:54:12 <Rubidium> where can I find that information?
21:54:18 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: lol, now that is bullshit :)
21:54:39 <valhallasw> as your '500 = HBO' is not true for either physics or math
21:54:50 <TrueBrain> it is very much through for most courses we follow
21:55:47 <TrueBrain> hmm, only the 500 is wrong
21:56:00 * Rubidium wonders why liacs uses C++ as 'standard' programming language
21:56:07 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: we all do
21:56:19 <valhallasw> Rubidium: good question, as there is no memory management in the programming courses
21:56:32 <Rubidium> Java is imo a better choice
21:56:32 <TrueBrain> even worse: they rarely use OO :p
21:56:51 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: my bachelor research is level 400
21:56:57 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it most likely is yes
21:57:09 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: as I said, the 500 is wrong :p
21:57:21 <TrueBrain> but the levels aren't like I remember anyway... and may courses lack a level nowedays...
21:57:33 * TrueBrain tries to find his agenda of some years ago :p
21:58:00 <valhallasw> Rubidium: there is absolutely no reason *not* to use java
21:58:12 <valhallasw> except Kosters cannot teach it, probably
21:58:21 <TrueBrain> there is even no reason to not use Pascal :p
21:58:54 <valhallasw> pascal might get limited later on with informatica
21:59:08 <valhallasw> but for math and physics it would definitly be good enough
21:59:20 <TrueBrain> astronomy uses IDL :p
21:59:43 <Rubidium> nice for written exams
22:00:00 <valhallasw> too great to be funny :P
22:00:27 <TrueBrain> iraf on the other hand....
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22:01:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx|away
22:01:08 <valhallasw> heh, my dad learned to use FORTRAN ('66)
22:01:31 <TrueBrain> Hmm, they removed all info about levels...
22:01:56 *** glx|away is now known as glx
22:02:36 <valhallasw> Kosters fails in teaching
22:02:41 <valhallasw> but other than that, he rules
22:03:09 <TrueBrain> excuse me? I never seen a teacher getting 60 students who know nothing about programming, motivated to make a C++ program on a moderated level
22:04:00 <TrueBrain> that female character on the other hand...
22:04:00 <Rubidium> C++ is really not the language to start programming in; too much pitfals and lousy (in comparison to java) compiler errors
22:04:30 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: Java has his downside too, but yeah, C++ isn't a nice start :p
22:04:31 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: I hardly call that a moderate level
22:04:38 <valhallasw> and I hardly call that motivated
22:06:01 <TrueBrain> but I was pretty impressed with my classmates
22:06:15 <TrueBrain> never expected them to write vectorracing :)
22:06:24 <TrueBrain> (hehe, long story :p)
22:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> what kind of off-topic babble is that?
22:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, absolutely not ;)
22:10:01 <Rubidium> ofcourse this is less off-topic than most of the off-topic stuff I've seen
22:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't understand half of what you're talking about...
22:12:06 <TrueBrain> we are talking about our uni :)
22:12:29 <valhallasw> and about the lousyness of teaching first-years c++
22:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> i figured that much, but everything beyond that needs too much inside knowledge
22:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> i learned haskell and sather-k in my first year
22:13:16 <Rubidium> basically it's about the lousiness of (some) Dutch universities in the field of grading and scientific level of the courses
22:15:32 <TrueBrain> but okay, Eddi|zuHause2, you have a better topic of talk?
22:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't think so :)
22:16:16 <TrueBrain> You have nothing interested to tell at all? :)
22:20:01 <valhallasw> I hate 'plzz dont read this\n\n\n\n\nyour mother will die in 4 hours if you dont copy-paste this to 40 comments'-youtube-comments
22:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> someone has seen to much "the ring" :)
22:23:28 <TrueBrain> I really hate such comments too
22:23:31 <TrueBrain> they just sound so nasty
22:23:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9740 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#709]: removed wrong assert() that could be triggered by removing an order at the wrong moment
22:23:38 <TrueBrain> I even hate more those people who copy paste it in a channel
22:34:55 <valhallasw> I transcribed it, does that count?
22:35:12 *** setrodox_ has joined #openttd
22:41:43 <valhallasw> because your mother will die in 4 hours! muhahahahaha
22:41:50 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: I need to be opped to kick someone.
22:41:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you mind opping DorpsGek?
22:42:02 <TrueBrain> (we should add him to chanserv)
22:43:10 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: can't you do that yourself?
22:43:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I removed myself from the access-list long ago
22:43:35 <TrueBrain> and I forgot the password :p
22:44:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o TrueBrain
22:44:26 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b valhallasw!*@*
22:44:30 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b byebye,!*@*
22:44:34 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b such!*@*
22:44:38 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b language!*@*
22:44:42 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b is!*@*
22:44:42 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b _not_!*@*
22:44:42 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b welcome!*@*
22:44:42 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b here!*@*
22:44:43 <TrueBrain> Stupid client I have....
22:44:45 *** valhallasw was kicked by TrueBrain (byebye, such language is _not_ welcome here)
22:44:53 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b welcome!*@*
22:44:55 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b _not_!*@*
22:44:57 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b byebye,!*@*
22:44:58 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b here!*@*
22:45:00 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b is!*@*
22:45:02 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b language!*@*
22:45:03 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b such!*@*
22:45:10 <TrueBrain> it even bans very stupid
22:45:31 <TrueBrain> I truely don't get how someone can even joke about things like that
22:45:53 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +o DorpsGek
22:46:07 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -o TrueBrain
22:49:41 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
22:49:43 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b valhallasw!*@*
22:49:49 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -o TrueBrain
22:51:29 <TrueBrain> I should enable the ban-module I guess :p
22:52:49 <TrueBrain> argh, don't you guys too hate it when you miss parts of your log-files?
22:52:55 <TrueBrain> after a reboot or something, that it gets chopped
22:53:34 <TrueBrain> who remembers when we migrated to oftc?
22:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> my freenode logs stop 21. Dez
22:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have no idea why
22:56:19 <TrueBrain> pfff, time goes fast
22:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> [Sa Aug 12 2006] [18:20:02] <TrueLight> Dear people, we have moved to irc.oftc.net. We hope you all move with us. This channel is on mute, and because of that you are not able to talk. Of course, on irc.oftc.net you can talk freely to us. Sorry about the trouble, and thank you for your understanding.
23:00:16 <Ailure> a channnel I know is considering moving
23:00:30 <Ailure> non-existant service from IRCops is the main reason heh
23:14:29 <_42_> Eddi|zuHause2: 14.1333333333;
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23:19:14 <RobertGrammig> I just downloaded openttd this week and wonder what this newGRF stuff is? graphics?
23:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> more than just graphics
23:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> it can change complete vehiclesets, and modify lots of other game behaviour
23:21:36 <Maedhros> night boys and girls
23:22:36 <RobertGrammig> well where can I download them ;)?
23:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> grfcrawler.tt-forums.net would be a good start
23:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> or on the ttdpatch site
23:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%2014.%20Aug%201923.png <- only a few possibilities you can have with newgrf
23:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> in this case, the DBSetXL as vehicleset, NewStations and IndustrialStations as stationset, and "stolentrees"
23:25:34 <RobertGrammig> can grfs also fix the low difficulty level caused by the stupid AI?
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23:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> but there is a new AI system in development
23:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have learned to just switch off the AI
23:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> there is enough challenge in managing your own network
23:27:40 <RobertGrammig> yeah prolly best thing to do...
23:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have probably not played against AI in 10 years...
23:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png <- a little more busy situation :)
23:30:24 <RobertGrammig> well I would definitely prefer having a good AI... building your own network is nice but I want some kind of benchmark to which I can compare the cleverness of my network
23:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> good "AI" = multiplayer :)
23:34:07 <RobertGrammig> yeah thats right ;=)
23:38:03 <TrueBrain> I like the new AI framework that is being build :) I wonder how long it takes for someone to make an AI that beats you guys! :)
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