IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-04-12
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00:12:16 <__abigail> Just checked with my gf and she says pain au chocolat
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00:13:26 <kaibaneddy> Once again people use 'sarcasm' when they mean 'irony' 🤷♀️
00:15:23 <_glx_> both are hard to decipher 😉
00:20:40 <belajalilija> __abigail: You have to say chocolatine around her then
00:21:16 <__abigail> I can just mispronounce pain au chocolat instead
00:21:19 <__abigail> That will upset her more
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00:50:48 <zbrown[d]> belajalilija: It's true, this is how we deal with someone French, find out they call it and then consistently use the other.
00:51:30 <zbrown[d]> Believe it or not there are still several French people who talk to me 😅
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07:03:46 <andythenorth> as a guide if: you're talking to someone who was turned 18 between 1991 and 1997, then *everythng* they say is ironic
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07:04:40 <alien_bunny_ninja> andythenorth: who *was* turned 18? they are turned eighteen like they are turned vampires? 😄
07:13:33 <rito12_13[d]> andythenorth: Were you turned 18 between then?
07:44:28 <reldred> yolo merge 15379/15931 wen
08:10:03 <__abigail> reldred: Sorry, I'm waiting for chatgpt to review it. I'll get back to you when it stops force pushing my API keys
08:45:50 <zbrown[d]> Presumably this too is sarcasm?
08:56:22 <reldred> get chatgpt to clean up all the cabbages
08:57:58 <reldred> man the local orthodox church goes hard for orthodox easter
08:58:11 <reldred> they better not be still going at midnight
08:59:23 <reldred> trying to get mapgen to my liking in vanilla ottd, I am greatly apreciative of vanilla desert rocks i must say
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09:07:45 <rito12_13[d]> zbrown[d]: Get chatGPT to recognise irony for you
09:10:15 <andythenorth> wonder if it can
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09:57:45 <reldred> lack of drivethrough depots vexes me but if I put them near my turnarounds it works alright
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11:08:49 <basedaili> this is more of a question, but is there a possibility to have industry spawns be clustered? As in, I don't know how the generation works, but I'd presume you could have something like a perlin noise map similar to the map gen, but for industries, this way you get one area that's a coal belt, one for iron, and then other areas are for farms and so on. This way you get dedicated areas and are
11:08:49 <basedaili> encouraged to do larger networks with dedicated planning rather than every town having every primary and resulting in spider networks.
11:08:49 <basedaili> I know this is a subjective thing, but I think, given the swamps *can* work apparently, I don't think it'd be that hard. But I may be very wrong.
11:12:38 <reldred> grfs and gamescripts can do that yes
11:12:52 <reldred> but it would be out of scope for openttd proper
11:15:07 <andythenorth> FIRS does it, and others
11:20:27 <talltyler> Swamps can be added because they’re new behaviour of a feature that wasn’t in TTD (rivers) and can’t be added by NewGRF. Industries won’t be changed from their TTD behaviour, especially in a way that can be done by NewGRF.
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11:51:24 <peter1138> I tend to feel that encouraging only long transport routes is part of "the problem"
11:56:27 <andythenorth> "what is clocks"
11:58:51 <reldred> no custom bridgeheads
11:59:00 <reldred> had to resort to using tunnels
12:47:28 <belajalilija> reldred: back to jgrpp with you!
13:06:02 <peter1138> I was ready to merge custom bridge heads a few years (lol) ago but then my work was undone.
13:08:31 <andythenorth> 20 years is enough for the trauma to pass 🙂
13:09:44 <reldred> belajalilija: I’m playing with reversing trains though
13:20:49 <peter1138> Yes but cup of tea?
13:22:00 <mnhebi> andythenorth: if only.
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15:24:35 <_glx_> that's an unexpected one
15:27:35 <_glx_> different trace, same crash
15:52:28 <peter1138> Something changed about dark mode detection?
15:54:27 <_glx_> we still use the code from the documentation
15:55:16 <_glx_> and my windows is in darkmode and everything works fine
15:56:05 <peter1138> The UISettings constructor is failing, right?
16:17:52 <_glx_> yeah it's UISettings constructor failing, I don't see any reason why
16:21:19 <mmtunligit> win11 vibe code changing things?
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17:04:37 <andythenorth> are all bugs now vibe coding 👀
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18:02:46 <michi_cc[d]> Well, in my final plan I'd have a highly variable number of tiles per index. Depending on how the tile info is structured, it could be possible to reconstruct the offsets.
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19:12:35 <rito12_13[d]> LordAro: it was misclick, I wanted to open it on my fork but forgot that I had'n changed the repo
20:13:32 <belajalilija> so what's going on in the world of push pull?
20:37:56 <reldred> belajalilija: Yolo merge when? :widdle_goblin:
20:38:18 <reldred> It’s feeling really stable in my current game at least.
20:39:55 <belajalilija> reldred: what are you running? is it some special modified version, a nightly? like how does this all work?
20:40:14 <audigex> I feel like we should have a YOLOnightly build that just merges everything and builds it. Any conflicts or errors automatically ask Codex or Claude or something to resolve it without human intervention
20:40:41 <audigex> belajalilija: If you can build your own copy of the game you can just pull the PR branch and build that instead
20:40:46 <reldred> belajalilija: It’s a branch on 2talltyler’s fork. That’s how PR’s get made.
20:41:12 <belajalilija> ahh so its kinda its own game
20:41:26 <reldred> Yeah I do have to compile the whole thing
20:41:36 <belajalilija> has he made it so push pull does lights correctly yet?
20:42:07 <reldred> The NML features are all there but nobody has coded grf’s that use them yet
20:42:24 <reldred> I don’t care though, I’m running horse in wagon only mode and narp+orp
20:42:30 <talltyler> Existing GRFs won't work automatically, they'll need updating
20:42:34 <audigex> Yeah I assume the newGRF would have to handle that for assymetric units at least
20:42:43 <reldred> talltyler: I’m using the setting one
20:42:46 <belajalilija> im just asking all this because i wanna know how long it will take***
20:43:18 <talltyler> I should clarify, existing GRFs won't have their headlights work without updating
20:43:21 <belajalilija> ***idk how to word it exactly but i wanna release something on the day or soon after it is made official but idk if i have time to do it because i work slowlyu
20:43:36 <will_marshall_> you can put the support in your GRF now, in theory.
20:43:38 <reldred> I’m really enjoying it,
20:43:50 <will_marshall_> with an updated build of nmlc or whatever
20:44:06 <belajalilija> will_marshall_: i havent even drawn a DVT yet xd
20:44:11 <reldred> Gives new challenge to layout construction having to accomodate turnarounds etc
20:44:17 <belajalilija> i could make one really easily
20:44:32 <belajalilija> ive just not had motivation today
20:44:51 <talltyler> Yeah for NML see PRs 420 and 421, you'll need to add those to your local build
20:45:10 <will_marshall_> i've had a very quick play but the problem is that playing openttd just makes me want to go and write code
20:45:10 <andythenorth> did anyone patch Horse for it?
20:45:14 <talltyler> andythenorth: Your DVTs work already because they're coded as locomotives 🙂
20:45:34 <andythenorth> I forget what the spec is 🙂
20:45:54 <talltyler> If/when all this gets merged, you can remove their power to make them regular wagons if you want
20:45:56 <belajalilija> mine will work, im just cuious about the headlight stuff
20:46:03 <belajalilija> im gonna try and code more stuff today
20:46:33 <will_marshall_> PRs 1-3 are interesting but I think the world really opens up beyond this point.
20:46:36 <belajalilija> my plan for release is to have 5 locomotives, 3 DVT types and their relevant carriages
20:47:12 <andythenorth> ok so there's a flag that would let brake vans lead a train, unpowered
20:47:46 <talltyler> Brake vans probably shouldn't get the flag, unless you want them to go full speed backwards 🙂
20:47:49 <andythenorth> or spacer wagons 😛
20:48:06 <andythenorth> is it a flag, or a byte?
20:48:13 <andythenorth> proportion of 255 😛
20:48:26 <will_marshall_> a flag to allow speed-limited reversing moves is the future
20:48:54 <talltyler> If you enable backing up without a full cab at the back, any train can go backwards at 20 mph, whether they have a brake van, coach, boxcar, etc., at the back
20:49:55 <talltyler> The flag allows a vehicle to lead at full speed as if it were a locomotive/DVT/cab car 🙂
20:50:38 <will_marshall_> I guess then you could make your newgrf limit the speed if the thing is on the rear and the train is going backwards.
20:52:04 <talltyler> I'm not really sure what you're trying to do, Will. Back up when the global setting is disabled?
20:52:24 <talltyler> Or set a custom speed limit different than the default 20 mph?
20:52:25 <will_marshall_> Allow propelling moves with a brake van at limited speed, disallow propelling without a brake van.
20:53:22 <talltyler> So if you don't have a brake van, the train magic flips?
20:53:40 <will_marshall_> No it gets stuck forever 😛
20:54:10 <talltyler> Punish the player for their sins, I like it 😛
20:55:31 <will_marshall_> Really the solution would be that trains back up unusably slowly without a special vehicle on the rear (here I link the video of passenger trains dropping into euston at 20mph with just a guy standing in the rear gangway of the coaching stock) and to back up at some useful but reduced speed with certain other vehicles.
20:55:40 <belajalilija> what if i hire keith to stand in the back of my coal hopper?
20:55:54 <will_marshall_> Remind Keith about the OLE.
20:56:06 <talltyler> Do you consider 20 mph unusably slow or useful but reduced?
20:56:47 <belajalilija> i personally think 20 is a good compromise
20:56:56 <belajalilija> stuff in this game looks kinda bad when it goes slower than that
20:57:01 <will_marshall_> It's a fine default point, if I'm building the game for myself I might well customize it.
20:57:22 <belajalilija> personally i'd say more like 10mph
20:57:33 <will_marshall_> OpenTTD does not need to exactly cater to my needs, there are other games that I can excercise my will over.
20:58:42 <talltyler> Oh I know, I'm just trying to understand what people want from the spec 🙂
20:59:42 <will_marshall_> I think I need an evening playing with it to come to any conclusions. I should try applying the patches to JGRPP to see what explodes.
21:00:20 <will_marshall_> (not to denigrate the patch at all, it's just I'll easily bounce off trying to earnestly play the game without my creature comforts)
21:00:31 <talltyler> I guess there is some distinction in speed for the comfort of the person riding the shove/propelling move, say 10 mph if you're standing on the stirrup of a freight car and 20 mph if you're in the vestibule of a coach or sitting in a caboose cupola 🙂
21:00:42 <talltyler> But 10 mph in OpenTTD is verrrrry slow 😄
21:01:20 <will_marshall_> 10mph is brutally slow, yeah. Here's a point of comparison.
21:01:36 <belajalilija> got this on my test world
21:01:36 <will_marshall_> If you had a single-cab locomotive on its own, realistically the reverse speed is going to be very high.
21:01:43 <belajalilija> you can easily see each frame
21:01:53 <will_marshall_> But as soon as you add a 2nd vehicle, are we saying that now you can't reverse at anything above 20mph?
21:02:03 <will_marshall_> For most definitions of "vehicle"
21:03:41 <andythenorth> can I propel everywhere?
21:03:57 <belajalilija> depends how hard you fart
21:03:58 <andythenorth> I want brake vans at the front of the train
21:09:40 <talltyler> will_marshall_: Like, a train pushing a flatcar where the engineer can see the track ahead, no guard/shunter required?
21:10:06 <talltyler> I think that would be an edge case no matter what flags we add 😄
21:10:28 <will_marshall_> Look that breaks actual train simulators you don't need to account for it.
21:11:57 <talltyler> I'm not really sure what you mean, then 🙂
21:13:10 <will_marshall_> All I meant was that backing up a consist like [Loco, 1x Mail Car] is a lot more similar to backing up a single loco than it is backing up a full train, but I should be clear that's not an instruction that anything needs to change.
21:13:24 <will_marshall_> Patch is fine, LGTM, 🚢 , 👍 etc
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22:03:48 <will_marshall_> Hrmm, maybe this is too ambitious to get done tonight.
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23:17:02 <_jgr_> will_marshall_: I'll get to it in due course
23:19:18 <_jgr_> Also, I'd suggest you don't use any kind of merge workflow that results in (pretty useless) .rej files
23:20:18 <_jgr_> If you really want to manually use patch files you should turn on the option to write merge conflict markers instead
23:32:00 <will_marshall_> I was mostly doing it to learn the process, because I get no exposure to git at all in my day job. Yeah .rej files is obviously not the way forward, but it was the closest workflow to something I was familiar with so I gave it a go.
23:34:39 <will_marshall_> Maintaining a divergent branch sucks as much in git as it does in perforce, no surprises.
23:35:24 <_glx_> there's a method to directly checkout a PR
23:36:17 <will_marshall_> Yeah, I've done it before, I don't know how much closer it gets you because the workload is less about the tool and just about the actual divergence between the codebases.
23:38:07 <will_marshall_> You can automate it more but the slow part is still a 3 way merge brain operation. It's going to be a painful process too, because functions in trunk that could by rights be const correct aren't in JGR (for good reasons)
23:39:09 <_glx_> PRs are just a branch in another repo
23:39:29 <will_marshall_> The github CLI makes me nervous, feels like a thing that exists to make people depend on an ecosystem.
23:39:44 <talltyler> If I were trying to merge this, I’d add the 2TallTyler/OpenTTD repo as a remote, fetch it, and then cherry-pick the commits.
23:39:53 <_glx_> but applying anything from vanilla into JGRPP is not easy
23:40:02 <_glx_> many differences in many areas
23:40:28 <will_marshall_> Yeah I wasn't expecting it to be easy, I was expecting tedious. Most of the divergence is recent stuff like scoped enum improvements.
23:40:51 <will_marshall_> To be clear I also wasn't asking for help.
23:41:09 <reldred> I have foolishly tried many a time to port a vanilla PR to JGRPP 😔
23:41:26 <reldred> I'm also utterly incompetent in c++ so yeah
23:41:48 <will_marshall_> It doesn't seem *that bad* but the lowest-effort way to do it results in a codebase that is neither jgrpp nor vanilla and it basically produces more work for someone else.
23:41:51 <_glx_> JGRPP to vanilla is often suprinsingly easier 😉
23:41:55 <_jgr_> I've be working on moving closer to vanilla lately
23:42:32 <will_marshall_> Well if you want help, I am happy to pick that up.
23:42:34 <_jgr_> I'm only about 140 commits behind master at the moment, and most of those are non-behaviour changes anyway
23:43:00 <_glx_> non-behaviour but a lot of code changes
23:43:20 <reldred> desert rocks is the only major change that I've been missing from vanilla
23:43:33 <reldred> but I have a .grf for jgrpp to fill that gap so eh
23:43:59 <reldred> will_marshall_: what are you porting to jgrpp?
23:44:02 <_jgr_> reldred: This is already merged
23:44:18 <reldred> I must have missed it
23:44:25 <will_marshall_> reldred: Was playing with reversi-trains, hence monster merge conflict in train_cmd.cpp
23:44:27 <_glx_> I still remember the pain to sync miniin 🙂
23:44:44 <reldred> will_marshall_: I suspected as much but I didn't want to start frothing at the mouth just yet
23:45:01 <_glx_> especially after the GUI rewrites
23:45:44 <will_marshall_> reldred: Well I'm going to put it on ice because it's obvious that doing it properly would be better for the entire world, and doing it properly means getting recent code changes in first.
23:46:06 <will_marshall_> Not to disappoint.
23:46:13 <will_marshall_> I was only sniffing around to teach myself things.
23:46:14 <reldred> Doing it properly would be getting it merged in OpenTTD first I think.
23:46:15 <__abigail> reldred: Weren't you the one asking for a yolo merge? :distorted_face:
23:46:39 <will_marshall_> That doesn't actually make as much of a difference as getting JGRPP more in line with the vanilla trunk first.
23:46:43 <reldred> __abigail: I still am damnit
23:47:13 <will_marshall_> If JGRPP was == 15.3 then maybe half of the failed merge chunks would go away.
23:47:18 <tabytac> _jgr_: the "boring" rebasing to upstream work is very much appreciated!
23:47:19 <__abigail> will_marshall_: True, we should replace JGRPP with vanilla. That will keep it in line for a while
23:47:22 <_jgr_> will_marshall_: I don't need to be fully up to date to cherry-pick the PR
23:47:56 <will_marshall_> No, of course, but if the PR uses enums that have changed to `enum class` you are adding (a tiny amount) of work for your future self.
23:48:09 <will_marshall_> That's all I'm saying.
23:48:47 <will_marshall_> Most of the work is still in working out how features like that interact with features like through loading
23:49:17 <will_marshall_> Or any one of a hundred other good features. 🙂
23:49:53 <talltyler> I want through loading in vanilla 🙂
23:50:19 <will_marshall_> Horrible pain.
23:51:21 <reldred> So far the two biggest things vexing me in my vanilla 15391 playthrough are custom bridgeheads and jgrpp drive through depots. Lesser annoyances are things like signals on tunnels/bridges but not really that much. The extra signals in jgrpp are also nice but they're not actively screwing with my construction plans.
23:51:47 <will_marshall_> Trains going backwards is certainly one of those features that multiplies the complexity of everything that has to follow it.
23:51:52 <reldred> I'd prefer autosep to unbunching but really unbunching is fine.
23:53:04 <reldred> I suspect reversing through load wouldn't be too bad, just means whoever applies the greater speed penalty needs to win out I suspect.
23:53:46 <will_marshall_> Reversing through load isn't too bad it just had a bit of weird that made steam come out of my ears when I was trying to solve it.
23:54:19 <will_marshall_> And I was going to say forget it and come back to it later but then the dog bumped my arm and demanded things and here we are.
continue to next day ⏵
