IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-03-15
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01:42:13 <goddess_ishtar> do we think partial cargo acceptance is a BAD FEATURE?
01:43:39 <mmtunligit> its poorly communiicated
01:57:51 <peter1138> Just read the manual (if you can find it)
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03:04:10 <davidxn> goddess_ishtar: What do we mean by partial cargo acceptance?
03:21:39 <goddess_ishtar> davidxn: some industries and town buildings accept some n/8 fraction of a cargo
03:22:38 <goddess_ishtar> so you need, for example, 4 tiles of 2/8 Goods acceptance in your station's catchment area for it to accept Goods
03:25:08 <davidxn> Oh, I see - yes, that makes sense. I never thought to question it 🙂
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05:14:51 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
06:00:14 <ahyangyi> goddess_ishtar: I just feel it's not particularly interesting
06:02:51 <ahyangyi> if you build a station whose catchment area has only 1 or 2 buildings, there is a risk that the building might be demolished and you lose accepted cargo. The partial cargo acceptance raises this bar to somewhere between 3 and 5 buildings and that's it
06:45:37 <LordAro> preventing stations from only covering a single tile of a town/industry is a good thing, like you say the issue is communicating this to the player
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07:21:37 <ahyangyi> It is, though I still think it's a minor benefit
07:21:45 <ahyangyi> no point to delete the feature either though
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08:04:33 <yiffgirl> LordAro: this single handedly made us decide to use partial acceptance for our own stuff
08:32:53 <locosage> for towns it's kind of necessary but for industries just confusing imo
08:35:34 <locosage> especially with vanilla industries where you can, for example, collect 4 coal mines for pax acceptance
08:35:39 <locosage> like wtf is this for
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08:51:45 <andythenorth> partial acceptance was probably a nice idea originally
08:51:59 <andythenorth> it forces stations to be plausibly adjacent to industries
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08:59:21 <jfkuayue> what about a town that only had 2 houses?
09:36:25 <ahyangyi> andythenorth: Well, station sizes and catchment areas do the same thing in a simpler fashion
09:36:43 <ahyangyi> partial acceptance does add a bit of nuance to it
09:36:54 <ahyangyi> I doubt it makes a big difference in most cases though
09:37:25 <ahyangyi> jfkuayue: And in the few cases it does make qualitative differences, it might be for the worse 😛
09:50:11 <reldred> has the sky fallen yet?
09:50:26 <andythenorth> Reddit has 2 new threads
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09:51:13 <hpiirai> Steam appears to have removed OpenTTD entirely
09:51:16 <andythenorth> Going about the average for outrage/misinformation abd that weird thing about reddit, which is that a significant number of the posts are kind
09:51:23 <reldred> hpiirai: Yeah it's a glitch
09:51:27 <emperorjake> jfkuayue: That's been a problem with certain gamescript and house set combinations
09:51:33 <reldred> hpiirai: cooks are still in the kitchen
09:52:15 <andythenorth> Much armchair lawyering is being done along the lines of “‘my sister’s dog walker’s landlady overheard someone talking”
09:53:38 <reldred> well, you are reading reddit
09:57:59 <andythenorth> Steam comments are…
09:58:19 <andythenorth> Stuff and things
10:00:20 <reldred> Tbh, after 20 yrs of gnawing at the back of my head and the last few months of fear uncertainty and doubt I'm glad things seem to be sorted now. Would be cool if the steam and gog distributables of openttd automatically pull base set and music files from the TTD folder. The original soundtrack does go incredibly hard.
10:01:39 <reldred> Good work to everyone involved in the negotations.
10:02:53 <belajalilija> Realistically speaking I’m very pleased with the outcome
10:03:24 <reldred> Yeah, I know there's gonna be a lot of pissing and moaning but I want to show some appreciation at least.
10:05:22 <andythenorth> Opinions might divide along “original base set” lines
10:09:27 <belajalilija> From what I’ve seen so far the division is, broadly speaking, between people who are willing to work within the framework of the reality as it is presented and people who want to piss and shit themselves hoping that the devs stick it to the big guy and take some form of radical action
10:12:24 <andythenorth> Perhaps also people with limited funds
10:12:59 <reldred> well if it's already in their steam library then they need not funds
10:14:01 <reldred> I'm sure for new players there'll be opportunities to get it for significantly less than USD$10
10:14:16 <reldred> steam sales are somewhat prolific
10:20:21 <andythenorth> I mean we could talk entitlement, but as people are just monkeys in clothes we might not entertain ourselves much
10:20:38 <andythenorth> “Download it on the webdite for free”
10:20:55 <andythenorth> “TOO HARD, TOO INCONVENIENT”
10:21:45 <reldred> Yeah I mean when people act so god damn indignant about extracting a zip file to a folder or running a cute little .exe it really concerns me for the future of the human race and their usage of technology
10:22:11 <reldred> it does make it easier for me to disregard their opinions entirely.
10:25:19 <ahyangyi> "Just ask your Openclaw to install OpenTTD for you"
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10:55:39 <wensimehrp> and install a thousand malware
11:01:53 <peter1138> Hmm, can I require my path finder to arrive from a specific direction.
11:02:26 <peter1138> May require rewriting it :/
11:02:47 <reldred> what mischief are you up to this time?
11:02:56 <peter1138> Nothing to do with OpenTTD.
11:03:30 <reldred> still playing with create trains?
11:10:44 <peter1138> ScriptRoad::GetRoadDepotFrontTile()
11:11:04 <peter1138> So, uh, what's the front tile of a depot that has more than one entrance... asking for a friend.
11:12:26 <peter1138> Hmm, there's a similar function for road stops. FrontTile and BackTile :)
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12:24:03 <_glx_> Hmm seems signing exe for Windows needs some admin work
12:46:45 <LordAro> reldred: you almost entirely have Mr Rudge to thank for the negotiations
13:09:55 <_glx_> most secrets being from 2 years ago, it's not too surprising
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15:45:27 <Borg> _jgr_: did you ever encountered kinda non-deterministic crash in OpenTTD? loosy related to tracerestrict?
15:45:53 <talltyler> The number of people saying “just use your OS package manager” without realizing that’s a Linux-only thing is funny to me.
15:46:04 <talltyler> (For installing OpenTTD)
15:47:21 <_jgr_> I'm going to need a bit more detail to go on than just that, Borg
15:49:12 <Borg> I have semi random crash at trace restrict insert validation
15:49:49 <Borg> at first I tought.. there is a bug.. either in validation or deletion of instruction.. but whatever I do. I cannot reproduce it
15:49:55 <Borg> I mean.. deterministicaly
15:50:47 <Borg> at madness.. I started clicking insert randomly.. and for my suprise.. OpenTTD crashed after Nth click.. no instruction changes.. nothing..
15:50:58 <_jgr_> You don't necessarily have to reproduce it, you can just look at the stack trace, crash log, etc.
15:52:12 <Borg> I cannot run debugger.. since its Win32.. but using gdb. I managed to nail it to exact instruction
15:52:26 <Borg> C0000005 is access violation
15:53:01 <_jgr_> If you know how to use gdb, you might as well do the debugging on Linux
15:53:08 <_jgr_> Make life 10x easier for yourself
15:53:23 <Borg> _jgr_: if I could make it crash deterministically.. I would not need to debug it :D
15:53:53 <Borg> OpenTTD is single threaded.. so no syncing..
15:54:00 <_jgr_> On Linux you'd be able to get a useful stack trace
15:54:31 <tabytac> talltyler: ill have you know that windows has winget, and its great :D
15:54:31 <tabytac> (and OpenTTD is on it already due to it being on the Microsoft store)
15:55:08 <Borg> _jgr_: whats worth.. it always crashes on Insert on End
15:55:42 <Borg> okey.. so I guess you didnt had weird crashes.. you resolved
15:56:50 <_jgr_> I've had a great number of bugs, I can't guess which it might be or if it's something different with nothing concrete
15:57:43 <_jgr_> If you can't get a stacktrace then insert printfs until the problem is more apparent
15:58:05 <Borg> it looks like race condition to me
15:58:13 <Borg> but.. its not really possible in OpenTTD..
15:59:39 <Borg> FUCK ME.. it crashed again
15:59:57 <Borg> I was just click at mad.. insert
16:00:03 <_glx_> C0000005 is segfault, usually means invalid pointer
16:00:11 <Borg> and after 10.. maybe 20 clicks.. it crashed
16:01:34 <_glx_> your crashlog is missing the most important part, the call stack 🙂
16:01:52 <Borg> _glx_: yeah.. but I know where it crashes
16:02:02 <peter1138> talltyler, oh they realize and it's deliberate.
16:02:13 <Borg> hold on. I will run gdb again
16:04:08 <_jgr_> Borg: Is the source of this available anywhere?
16:06:14 <Borg> _jgr_: I can make tarball
16:06:23 <Borg> but hold on. trying to catch stuff now
16:06:29 <Borg> using gdb on win32 is tricky
16:07:14 <Borg> 0x0079fbbc <+300>: mov -0x44(%ebp),%edx
16:07:14 <Borg> 0x0079fbbf <+303>: shl $0x2,%eax
16:07:14 <Borg> 0x0079fbc2 <+306>: add %eax,%edx
16:07:15 <Borg> 0x0079fbc4 <+308>: mov (%edx),%ecx
16:07:48 <Borg> _ZN19TraceRestrictWindow26GenericElseInsertionDryRunEjb
16:08:06 <Borg> so.. it tries to read from PTR stored in EDX
16:08:33 <Borg> _glx_: yeah.. but how the can get mangled.. non-deterministically.. thats the problem :/
16:08:59 <Borg> I wouldnt even be there if I could at least make it crash by hand
16:09:38 <peter1138> "i don't know why it's crashing" isn't the same as "non-deterministic"
16:09:45 <_glx_> could also be out of bound access on an array
16:09:54 <Borg> _glx_: yeah it is.. I guess
16:10:21 <Borg> peter1138: maybe my english is bad today.. the problem is..
16:10:26 <_glx_> at least the assembly looks like array access
16:10:44 <Borg> by non-deterministic I mean.. I have NO WAY to reproduce it
16:11:16 <Borg> everytime I try to do it.. it wont crash. I start to click at UI with madness.. aka.. slamming Insert button (you see it in screenshot)
16:11:22 <Borg> and... boom! it crashes.. sometimes
16:11:59 <LordAro> print debugging not working?
16:12:14 <Borg> guys.. I speak chinsee? :////
16:12:37 <LordAro> you speak about something we have no knowledge or visibility of
16:12:49 <LordAro> nor anything most of us care anything about
16:13:32 <Borg> okey.. time for debug printing
16:13:33 <_glx_> we can only guess possible cause, like missing validations before trying to dereference something
16:13:49 <_jgr_> It would be a lot easier if you posted the source...
16:14:02 <Borg> _glx_: thats not really make sense. because that would crash every single time.. doing one thing..
16:14:18 <_jgr_> Seeing as none of us can point out what you are doing wrong if you won't show anything
16:14:24 <Borg> I had bug there before.. mishandling of DoubleItem()
16:14:32 <_glx_> no, an index can be fine until it isn't
16:14:42 <Borg> yeah sorry guys for bothering it..
16:14:50 <Borg> I really wanted to catch _jgr_.. for some clues
16:15:10 <Borg> but I have a little idea now..
16:15:23 <Borg> I will run OpenTTD w/ TCP debug socket
16:15:33 <Borg> and dumb all points and offset + indexes
16:15:39 <Borg> every time I click insert
16:15:52 <LordAro> i love people who have just enough knowledge to be dangerous
16:16:54 <_glx_> it's the typical "it doesn't crash but actually access the wrong item, and at some point it finally crashes"
16:17:41 <LordAro> the disconnect between "i think this is a race condition" and "i'll debug via network socket" is hilarious
16:17:56 <Borg> LordAro: Im talking about -l <IP>:port thingie
16:17:59 <peter1138> I guess learning how to use a debugger is too much trouble.
16:18:44 <LordAro> peter1138: probanly not available on XP
16:19:05 <Borg> I doubt gdb will work correcntly on it
16:19:29 <_glx_> gdb is fine on windows for exe built with gcc
16:19:48 <_glx_> else mingw would not include it 🙂
16:20:32 <_glx_> but I still prefer using visual studio, it's simpler
16:22:58 <Borg> _glx_: yeah I remember VS.. I used it a lot.. VS 6.0 ;)
16:23:03 <Borg> it had very nice debugger
16:23:12 <Borg> anyway.. lets try to run it under gdb
16:35:26 <Borg> but somehow it doesnt want to crash
16:37:43 <Borg> std::vector<TraceRestrictItem> items = prog->items; // copy
16:37:50 <Borg> ^- jgr: so.. this is absolutly safe? :)
16:41:05 <_jgr_> I can't give an answer from a line in isolation, if you post the source I can take a proper look
16:41:46 <Borg> tracerestrict_gui.cpp alone enough? or you want copy of entire source?
16:42:13 <Borg> argh! it doesnt crash...
16:42:13 <mmtunligit> Isn’t your version modified
16:42:21 <_jgr_> The entire source please, I can then do the debugging and give you a concrete answer
16:42:57 <mmtunligit> You’ve posted numerous times about your custom routing restrictions, I’d be willing to bet almost anything it has something to do with one of those
16:46:56 <Borg> mmtunligit: if I only knew where... ;)
16:52:28 <Borg> this is crazy I cannot crash it anymore
16:55:08 <Borg> no pattern at all.. it just randomly crash..
16:55:29 <_jgr_> *sigh* please just post the source
16:57:29 <Borg> nah. I wont bother you _jgr_
16:57:45 <Borg> thx for good will tho :)
16:57:59 <Borg> IF I will found it... I will drop in here to report
16:58:41 <peter1138> Probably not even using git then...
16:59:57 <Borg> _jgr_: you want to clone whole repo?
17:00:02 <Borg> that will be maybe even better
17:00:32 <_jgr_> I just cannot help you if you won't show anything
17:00:37 <Borg> I have tarball ready but only snapshot
17:02:55 <Borg> yeah.. you will need it.. ;D
17:03:15 <Borg> I had one weird crash some month ago.. related to newgrf debug window
17:03:46 <Borg> it was.. a bit randomish.. but still you could quickly reprod it.. anyway
17:03:53 <Borg> so git diff gave hint what I was doing wrong
17:04:24 <Borg> this one popped out of nowhere..
17:21:34 <_jgr_> You have a buffer overflow in your use of sprintf in ShowTraceRestrictProgramWindow, to start with
17:23:27 <Borg> so it might be suptle but is used only on creation of Window
17:24:22 <Borg> _jgr_: well spotted.. :)
17:25:10 <Borg> I should have spotted it using git diff..
17:25:22 <Borg> todays change actually..
17:26:00 <_jgr_> In tracerestrict_gui.cpp line 1899 is incorrect, as it exceeds the array bounds in the non-replacing case
17:27:53 <_jgr_> These sorts of things are findable with tools like address sanitiser, _GLIBCXX_DEBUG, etc
17:28:56 <Borg> if (offset >= (TraceRestrictProgram::GetInstructionCount(items) + (replace ? 0 : 1))) return false; // off the end of the program
17:29:00 <Borg> uint array_offset = TraceRestrictProgram::InstructionOffsetToArrayOffset(items, offset);
17:30:10 <_jgr_> When you are inserting an item at the end then array_offset == items.size()
17:31:00 <Borg> but insertion is not a problem.. because offset always point at instruction.. its never mind its double item or not
17:31:06 <Borg> and insert shifts everything down..
17:31:14 <Borg> replace is problematic. and its handled
17:31:24 <_jgr_> You are performing a read off the end of your vector
17:32:11 <_jgr_> So you need to move that line inside the `if (replace) {` block
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17:34:39 <_jgr_> `items[array_offset]` is not valid when array_offset == items.size()
17:36:28 <jfkuayue> Borg is running JGRPP on XP?
17:36:38 <_jgr_> You are specifically clicking the insert button to insert at the end of the program
17:37:30 <Borg> jfkuayue: not really... I backported some of the jgrpp stuff into 1.8.0
17:37:39 <Borg> pretty much.. Routing Restrictions..
17:39:26 <Borg> but array_offset is calculated by stuff I pasted.. it nevers goes past array size I think..
17:39:50 <jfkuayue> is there a source of BorgPP
17:40:07 <_jgr_> It is equal to the array size when you are inserting at the end, which is the case that you posted in the screenshots earlier
17:40:15 <Borg> jfkuayue: yeah.. I pasted the link
17:40:51 <Borg> _jgr_: please take a look at tracerestrict.cpp, L572
17:41:25 <Borg> it should never be equal to vectory size
17:41:43 <Borg> jfkuayue: scroll back. I posted link to my source code snapshot
17:42:18 <Borg> and because Routing Restriction array always have 1 item at least
17:42:36 <jfkuayue> I am on a train wifi and openttd 16 will release before it finishes downloading
17:42:47 <_jgr_> It is when you're inserting at the end, that is what the `(replace ? 0 : 1)` term is doing...
17:43:30 <Borg> yeah I have hard time following that code logic :/ but I think its okish..
17:43:42 <Borg> _jgr_: do you know how I can make it 100% crash? to understand it?
17:44:32 <Borg> _jgr_: empty trace restrict program always have 1 item.. right?
17:45:07 <_jgr_> No, they can be 0 size in the shared case
17:45:12 <Borg> okey I will do stupid thing
17:45:20 <Borg> I will recompile with + 5 there
17:45:24 <Borg> to see what will happen..
17:47:11 <Borg> as expected. nothing really changed
17:47:37 <Borg> now crash.. no unexpected behavior
17:47:51 <Borg> and if I insert at the end. it inserts at the end
17:47:54 <_jgr_> I posted the correct code in the pastbin above
17:48:14 <Borg> okey lets compare it :) diff would be better hehe
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17:48:50 <_jgr_> I don't know how many different ways I can explain this
17:49:09 <Borg> I will compare and check :D
17:51:49 <Borg> okey thanks a lot! indeed
17:52:44 <Borg> okey lets try to do some stupid things to confirm that
17:54:32 <Borg> bool is_dual = IsTraceRestrictDoubleItem(items[array_offset + 1]);
17:55:57 <Borg> I need to 100% understand it
17:59:05 <Borg> dbg: [misc] Debug: size=9, offset=7, array_offset=9
18:03:17 <Borg> I wondered why it didnt crashed earlier
18:03:23 <Borg> code like this is there from months
18:04:28 <LordAro> undefined behaviour is undefined
18:08:18 <Borg> _jgr_: if you ever need full GIT repo of my stuff ;) let me know
18:08:26 <Borg> maybe there are some things you would like to port [;
18:08:45 <Borg> I significantly improved your routing restrictions :) or-if and-if handling
18:29:29 <goddess_ishtar> talltyler: okay but Windows *should* have a package manager, it's a much better paradigm than looking around for a random installer which you hope does what you want
18:39:15 <mmtunligit> i think that depends on the author getting everything fixed and rebased
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18:51:08 <digitalfox> goddess_ishtar: Winget?
18:51:08 <digitalfox> I use it to download and update all my software in Windows
19:01:00 <brickblock19280> goddess_ishtar: Tbh I still won't know the name of the package anyway and they're not always up to date
19:04:09 <LordAro> i find it's more up to date than chocolatey
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20:10:24 <peter1138> Another useless image response
20:12:53 <belajalilija> If i was a year older I’d be classed as a millennial
20:13:09 <LordAro> bet you think 6-7 is funny too
20:13:27 <peter1138> Would that stop you posting useless image responses?
20:15:13 <belajalilija> LordAro: For the absurdity of it, yes, but let’s not pretend that people haven’t always laughed at or done dumb shit, 67 is no less sophisticated than answering the phone with WAZZZZAAAAP or doing borat voices
20:18:40 <goddess_ishtar> LordAro: that's a Gen Alpha meme
20:22:41 <belajalilija> Oh yeah, that too
20:32:37 <jfkuayue> When I was 5, I was laughing at the exact three english letters "PPR" on the road advertisement of pipe stores
20:35:39 <LordAro> belajalilija: very nice
21:15:07 <goddess_ishtar> what's the intended use of `zone/leisure`? it's kinda vague
21:15:41 <goddess_ishtar> I assume it's for commercial buildings which aren't retail, like hotels and spas and such
21:16:38 <peter1138> I would guess things like the football stadium.
21:17:03 <goddess_ishtar> aren't you the one who wrote the spec?
21:18:25 <goddess_ishtar> this is going to be messy as hell
21:18:26 <peter1138> Borrowed from that, but not exactly the same.
21:19:03 <peter1138> I didn't put anything on a NewGRF wiki, so from my point of view, it is not "the spec", it was just a suggestion of how things could be.
21:19:06 <_glx_> badges details are not in the spec 😉
21:19:20 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: they're part of the openttd default badges are they not
21:19:24 <peter1138> The purpose of my repo existing on github is for other people to collaborate on it.
21:19:30 <peter1138> There are no default badges.
21:19:35 <_glx_> the spec is only how they work and how to use them, not the actual values
21:20:02 <reldred> Sigh, I wasn’t going to go anywhere near that deep when I did RCI badges for my houses
21:21:42 <_glx_> typical badges will emerge from usage, like cargolabels did
21:21:50 <peter1138> reldred, my version is a heirarchy, so zone/res, zone/ind and zone/com are all valid.
21:22:15 <peter1138> then you can add low/medium/high if you need more detail
21:22:28 <peter1138> But 1) whoever put it on the NewGRF wiki as a "spec" was misguided
21:23:08 <peter1138> 2) only one person added an issue suggesting changes.
21:23:37 <goddess_ishtar> I put it in the same category as common cargo labels and road/railtype labels
21:23:48 <peter1138> (To be fair I didn't reply to that, though I did make a PR with ideas)
21:23:49 <goddess_ishtar> that's not a "spec" per se, just what other people are standardizing on
21:24:46 <goddess_ishtar> it'd be nice to know who actually uses what, if the list on the wiki doesn't actually reflect any sort of standard
21:24:49 <peter1138> Those are different, because they're actually just information collected on what people have been doing, rather than proposing how it should be used.
21:25:34 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: I mean, neither does the wiki list
21:25:54 <peter1138> It's infuriating. We have a system that allows collaboration and nobody does.
21:26:14 <goddess_ishtar> I'm just asking "what is this used for" because badges require people to standardize on similar meanings to be useful to anyone
21:26:42 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: fine, I'll raise an issue on the repo then
21:30:58 <reldred> peter1138: Yeah I was only going to go as far as high/low, but good to know yours is hierarchical, solves some potential issues down the track.
21:32:02 <peter1138> goddess_ishtar, now obviously, I'm not a set author, and I have no idea what people would want to use. So it could really do with set authors fighting it out. Er, I mean comming to a conclusion.
21:32:32 <goddess_ishtar> yeah I'm doing that for my own purposes
21:32:58 <goddess_ishtar> I'll post my badges when I'm done that
21:33:02 <reldred> I only wanted to use it in a very minimal sort of fashion. Too much placement logic causes too many problems in a building set.
21:33:27 <peter1138> I kinda imagine everyone gave up on the idea tbh.
21:33:28 <reldred> Mostly just to encourage clustering of buildings
21:33:58 <reldred> peter1138: Not really gave up, I’ve just not really had much interest in grfdev as a whole lately.
21:34:33 <reldred> Too many other time consuming side quests in my life atm
21:34:46 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: nah I'm planning quite a lot of town-level placement logic
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21:35:03 <goddess_ishtar> most of it requires a compatible building set, though, which I'm not working on yet
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21:57:29 <jfkuayue> Why can it happen? I was at the road side adjecant to bus station pressing the button waiting for green light, the bus was to depart in a whole 3 minutes, and it just went away?
21:57:48 <reldred> Because fuck you that’s why
21:57:51 <jfkuayue> And the next bus would be 30 minutes?
21:58:14 <reldred> welcome to pubic transportation
21:58:21 <mmtunligit> guy didnt show up to work
21:58:39 <goddess_ishtar> I missed a bus last week which came more than 10 minutes early, before I even showed up at the bus stop
21:58:56 <jfkuayue> And that bus stop is known to be a "waiting stop"
21:58:59 <goddess_ishtar> (and it's scheduled for every hour, so "just catch the next one" isn't trivial)
21:59:35 <mmtunligit> jfkuayue: very possible all the regular passengers were already on and the guy figured he could leave early
21:59:50 <jfkuayue> Not a "regular passengers"type
21:59:50 <reldred> peter1138: I do actually have quite a bit of interest from the jp+ devs as well, your badges implementation solves a great many problems with cross-grf compatibility and considering I’ve made probably half a dozen to a dozen building sets over the years theirs strong interest in cross-grf compat
22:00:01 <reldred> Badges will save us all
22:00:35 <jfkuayue> The bus is uni<->city type
22:00:48 <jfkuayue> Not "a few familiar villagers" type
22:01:02 <goddess_ishtar> so it's more of a coach?
22:01:21 <jfkuayue> No? The route would be 3 miles, or 5 km
22:01:30 <mmtunligit> i wonder if it frequently ends up running late and that guy is trying to make sure he gets his full break
22:01:34 <mmtunligit> wouldnt suprise me
22:02:35 <jfkuayue> I was deliberately shopping in the tesco nearby and went out 6 minutes before the bus, to avoid standing in the rain
22:02:52 <reldred> Maybe the bus driver just doesn’t like you
22:03:03 <jfkuayue> So the problem would be, what if i bought ice cream? And it would be wasted
22:03:39 <reldred> This is why I like my city and them legalising those little electric scooters. Nyoooom.
22:03:47 <jfkuayue> So my conclusion is, large ice cream packs are for drivers.
22:06:57 <belajalilija> reldred: Driving a bus with spite sounds like a laugh tbh
22:07:45 <belajalilija> I’ve been on busses were the driver blatantly let some people on for free
22:07:49 <reldred> Have you met bus drivers? I swear the only thing they hate more than passengers is other bus drivers.
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22:08:29 <reldred> Maybe it’s different region to region but oh Lordy were they spiteful creatures in my last city
22:08:52 <mmtunligit> belajalilija: oh its so much fun
22:09:16 <mmtunligit> whenever i got to leave kids at 40th and girard i was the happiest person in the world
22:09:22 <mmtunligit> they were a damn menace
22:09:29 <belajalilija> Here bus drivers all seem to be about a second away from throwing hands but they seem to like other drivers unless they’re hindering them
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22:14:10 <jfkuayue> This joke was by Kjartan Poskitt's murderous maths series
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22:43:34 <talltyler> We complain about Reddit users, but Steam users are...something else. 🙂
22:47:48 <belajalilija> There’s about 8 billion people in the world
22:48:05 <belajalilija> Yet that still crawled out of the gene pool
22:50:12 <belajalilija> It may be sentient
23:07:56 <mmtunligit> hope that's a level headed enough response that doesnt say anything too incorrect
23:08:44 <mmtunligit> very tired of people who know nothing about the history of the project or how the world works thinking they can shout their way past IP law
23:11:25 <will_marshall_> I don't really have a horse in this race and obviously it's up the devs with credentials to do what they like with the project they steer, but can I just say.
23:11:40 <will_marshall_> If there's an NDA, say that there's an NDA and stop hinting/alluding to stuff.
23:12:07 <mmtunligit> sometimes NDAs prohibit even mentioning that there's an NDA
23:14:21 <reldred> Yeah I mean I’d love to hear the goss from Owen but I can only assume if he’s keeping his mouth shut it’s for a bloody good reason. Things may well still be in flux.
23:16:10 <will_marshall_> An NDA that stops you from saying there's an NDA but allows you to make a press release without being given the exact words by a lawyer is a fascinating breed of NDA!
23:17:25 <mmtunligit> idk, i trust that the dev team has the projects best intrests at heart, and has shared whatever they can
23:21:02 <will_marshall_> One step further then, if one thinks there's an NDA (a very scary NDA!) and one doesn't want to jeopardize the project by presupposing anything, one should not speculate at all and not say anything anywhere to anyone and jumping to the defence of the presumptively-NDA-encumbered people at all might not be in their best interests and they wouldn't (in this hypothetical) be able to tell you to stop.
23:21:24 <will_marshall_> Everyone should either say what happened or engage in shut up fridays.
23:21:57 <will_marshall_> I'm gonna! But the sly winking is annoying!
23:24:08 <mmtunligit> yeah its shut the fuck up fridays
23:25:02 <mmtunligit> being autistic and *needing* to help everyone understand sucks
23:25:15 <mmtunligit> but sometimes you jsut gotta shut the fuck up
23:25:21 <mmtunligit> (this is about me if its not clear)
23:25:48 <will_marshall_> Yeah, sorry. If I wanted a shorter way of putting what I said I'd have said "you can get someone who has signed an NDA in trouble by saying anything that implies that they broke the NDA to you in a private conversation, even if they didn't"
23:26:29 <will_marshall_> You can put them in an impossible position because they can't prove a negative - they can't prove they didn't say anything to you.
23:26:35 <will_marshall_> Ask me how I know!
23:26:40 <will_marshall_> Hence, stfu fridays.
23:26:58 <will_marshall_> How you can help the core dev team: simply don';t
23:26:59 <belajalilija> Can we try this stfu Friday thing already
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23:35:11 <squirejames> Would an agreement not to disclose the existence of an NDA, be a NDANDA?
23:35:34 <goddess_ishtar> squirejames: yeah, sounds about right
23:35:34 <will_marshall_> No wait not quite.
23:36:12 <squirejames> and of course, you'd need another NDA to not disclose the existence of the non-disclosure agreement about the non-disclosure agreement
23:36:22 <squirejames> I fear this way lays ruin
23:36:40 <squirejames> It's NDAs all the way down
23:36:46 <will_marshall_> reset the counter, lets see if we all sit on our hands we can make it to 10 minutes next time
23:36:56 <goddess_ishtar> I do think this entire situation is annoying as all hell and people are right to be pissed about it, especially since "just get it from the website" means you don't get Steam automated updates
23:37:04 <squirejames> will_marshall_: so how about them railtypes?
23:37:12 <will_marshall_> I literally do not know what Railtypes is.
23:37:31 <goddess_ishtar> and I think the announcement should say something along the lines about how this isn't a promotion that the OpenTTD team decided to do or whatever, it's Atari asserting copyright
23:38:17 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, I get it, "they've said all they can" but like
23:38:37 <goddess_ishtar> open-source games live and die on community engagement
23:38:58 <mmtunligit> community seems plenty engaged :P
23:39:26 <goddess_ishtar> mmtunligit: I just don't want the backlash to be aimed at the OpenTTD devs who have done pretty much nothing wrong
23:39:28 <will_marshall_> Community status: feverish, approaching febrile
23:40:30 <will_marshall_> Personal status: building weird little trains for the amusement of myself and my coworkers:
23:41:57 <will_marshall_> Also I've almost certainly got a lot wrong about the way those trains work and are laid out but did you know there's not a lot of reference data for 100+ year old multiple units?
23:42:12 <belajalilija> 5/6 car emus seem a bit odd
23:42:19 <belajalilija> At least older ones i mean
23:42:35 <squirejames> I mean, maybe not *that* excited but
23:43:26 <mmtunligit> oh those are weird as hell
23:43:28 <belajalilija> belajalilija: Surely it makes more sense to combine sets of 2 or 3
23:43:29 <will_marshall_> None of these are distributed power. One motor vehicle per train. The thing that confuses me is I don't think they'd invented low-voltage multiple unit circuitry.
23:43:49 <will_marshall_> IRL the ones that come in 2/3/4/5/6 car sets were barely multiple units.
23:43:57 <mmtunligit> what makes them MUs then if the power isnt distributed at all
23:44:04 <mmtunligit> were they actually permanently coupled?
23:44:40 <peter1138> It's entirely weird, having to build them as fixed-length trains instead of just composing from the component parts.
23:44:45 <will_marshall_> Well, the terminology is a bit controversial.
23:44:54 <squirejames> Essentially they were more "motor coaches, towing a thing", as most early MUs were
23:45:25 <will_marshall_> IMO it's "multiple unit control" when you have a vehicle with a cab that controls motors on another vehicle.
23:46:00 <will_marshall_> So a train is a multiple unit if it's able to control or be controlled by other vehicles, which makes an SD40-2 a multiple unit, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
23:46:02 <belajalilija> peter1138: Yeah i have to agree with you here, i make very model railway grf but this fells like something that should be build a bear
23:46:50 <will_marshall_> Reason I've done it like that: I don't want you to run the motor car on its own when it only has a cab at one end.
23:47:08 <will_marshall_> We've previously established that my opinions on what should go in a set and how the set should work are Wrong 😛
23:47:46 <squirejames> I mean, you could code it as a twin car set, and any coaches (clestory or standard) added to it becomes a middle car
23:48:00 <squirejames> If memory serves the default MUs are coded thusly
23:48:14 <will_marshall_> Sprite swap logic is just nightmare stuff.
23:48:22 <mmtunligit> i think we let the mad scientist be Wrong
23:48:45 <mmtunligit> if he starts trying to get other people to adopt the style then we pull out the torches and pitchforks :P
23:48:46 <will_marshall_> I'll wear "wrong" as a badge, proudly.
23:48:52 <belajalilija> wrong It Is Then
23:49:00 <will_marshall_> Yeah, nobody should play with this set, nobody should ever look at it, I should go back in my box.
23:49:21 <mmtunligit> back to the sprite mines with you!
23:49:22 <squirejames> "OpenTTD Episode 341: Andy and Will make a train and rail set. Hillarity ensues"
23:49:43 <will_marshall_> oops finger slipped, worst feature ever put to nml laid bare
23:49:56 <will_marshall_> (giving me variant groups was a mistake)
23:50:02 <mmtunligit> holy shit, extrazoom trains AND longer than 8/8?
23:50:05 <belajalilija> will_marshall_: Same
23:50:27 <peter1138> Seems like it's time to ban the Discord bridge.
23:50:27 <mmtunligit> cant tell if its 32bpp either
23:50:34 <will_marshall_> no 32bpp is perverse
23:50:35 <belajalilija> mmtunligit: I think it’s timberwolf style
23:50:35 <will_marshall_> i would never 😄
23:51:19 <belajalilija> Yeah guys go to Discord channel #add-on-development the noise is upsetting granddad
23:51:41 <will_marshall_> oh my bad I'll fuck off to bed
continue to next day ⏵
