IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-01-02
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07:17:45 <andythenorth> back to work today eh
07:26:00 <reldred> technically I was at work today
07:26:10 <reldred> I did log on, review some tickets, talk to a coworker
07:26:16 <reldred> absolutely nothing else happened
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08:02:06 <nanapipirara> Congratulations on the release everyone! What an amazing version from what I've seen so far 🙂
08:02:56 <nanapipirara> I noticed the new icon (which is nice!) is botched in its tiniest form on macOS Sequoia
08:03:18 <nanapipirara> (see in list on the left)
08:06:50 <nanapipirara> Not sure if it's the version or smth else. I'm on a 2018 intel macbook pro
08:07:09 <nanapipirara> I've never seen this happen on an icon before
08:09:01 <andythenorth> I'll try to repro
08:09:56 <nanapipirara> if you need me to test anything on my machine later and I'm away, just pm me
08:10:07 <andythenorth> do you know how to find the icon file inside the bundle?
08:10:18 <nanapipirara> yes, i'll have a look
08:10:42 <nanapipirara> looks fine here...
08:11:05 <andythenorth> mine has 11 icons when opened in Preview, all look fine
08:11:05 <nanapipirara> i'll reboot and see if it persists
08:11:16 <andythenorth> possibly just force quit finder
08:14:07 <andythenorth> hmm this Toyland title game 🙂
08:14:25 <andythenorth> voting is not always the best form of democracy 😛
08:42:02 <nanapipirara> andythenorth: Hmm nope, full restart didn't fix it either.
08:43:23 <nanapipirara> It might just be my system, it's weird that the icon shows normal when browsing to the Resources folder inside the .app
08:43:57 <andythenorth> there's an icon cache, which can become corrupted
08:44:04 <andythenorth> there are terminal commands that clear it
08:44:23 <andythenorth> if the .icns file looks ok in Preview, then it's _probably_ not OpenTTD
08:48:24 <nanapipirara> Hm, I tried clearing the cache but permissions got in the way, even with sudo
08:48:32 <nanapipirara> But you're probably right
08:49:06 <nanapipirara> I'll give it another shot later and will make time for a bug report if it doesn't fix it
09:09:07 <kei2> um, guys, i just spend ~2-3m on ground alternating online and it didn't get into expenses, can you check?
09:11:03 <andythenorth> how are we to check that?
09:13:05 <kei2> ah, my bad it's now in construction
09:15:49 <peter1138> Alright, now we get to find the major show-stopping bugs.
09:20:14 <locosage> was thinking toyland title game doesn't look that bad
09:20:25 <locosage> then realized I have grass replacement static grf xD
09:21:16 <locosage> why does opegfx2 have option to change every grass except toyland that actually needs that? 😅
09:23:02 <peter1138> Is it spelled winge or whinge?
09:24:29 <andythenorth> the other way is also valid
09:31:53 <ahyangyi> locosage: Perhaps because the toyland ground isn't grass 😛
09:34:42 <locosage> Well... there is even an option called "Toyland grass", it's just a choice between toyland and toyland 😅
09:54:11 <ahyangyi> You can choose any grass you like, as long as it's toyland
09:54:23 <ahyangyi> There's toyland grass, and there's alternative toyland grass.
10:05:11 <Borg> andythenorth: lol... stupid idea... with world storage.. you can make electrics train stop when no power from power plants [;
10:05:50 <Borg> but that would require different access type...
10:06:17 <andythenorth> could also have coal supply level
10:06:25 <andythenorth> and coal quality types
10:06:47 <Borg> and requires you to serve coal via backup diesel locos just in case [;
10:10:36 <Borg> geez.z. those electric rails is nearly hardcoded in OpenTTD.. I try to play scenario. w/ all my settings copied over.. and I still get elrails.. even tho setting of vehicle.disable_elrails = true
10:19:58 <peter1138> Not hardcoded, just the scenario author decided the scenario should have elrails.
10:20:57 <Borg> peter1138: yeah yeah.. im getting rid of all that :) introduced misc variable called _sc_flags that do cleanup of settings in loading or playing scenario
10:26:08 <peter1138> You'll need to make sure all the callbacks for the settings that get changed are called.
10:27:30 <Borg> yeah.. there is SettingsDisableElrail() I call
10:27:40 <Borg> also, its for Scenario loading.. not safe loading
10:29:00 <Borg> scenerio is empty. I mean. no Company infra..
10:29:07 <Borg> so nothing to convert really
10:29:14 <Borg> okey :) time to play OpenTTD
10:29:23 <Borg> a lot of stuff changed.. need to test it
10:32:06 <peter1138> There are definitely things to change when the elrail toggle is changed.
10:32:57 <LordAro> elrail does feel like it doesn't need to be baked into a scenario
10:33:17 <LordAro> but i guess it's the same as that other recent issue - new game and scenario are no different
10:33:42 <peter1138> Scenarios use all the creator's new game settings. Including things like NewGRFs, so things like railtypes are definitely "baked" into a scenario.
10:38:10 <Borg> thats why I have sc_flags.. because im interested in MAP.. not the settings or GRFs
10:38:32 <peter1138> Sounds like you want the heightmap out of a scenario.
10:38:33 <Borg> this is workaround.. until some new l33t heighmap system will appear [;
10:38:57 <Borg> peter1138: not always.. sometimes I extra heighmap.. but I want to replay some good old scenarios like West country 90210
10:39:03 <peter1138> If the scenario has NewGRF industries or houses, the map requires those too.
10:39:09 <Borg> but w/ BSPI and electricity and all my settings
10:39:32 <Borg> so im loading scenerio. but overwrite settings w/ all my newgame settings
10:39:47 <Borg> then I added GRFs... I call reinit_grf 0A to reinit industries
10:39:58 <LordAro> 90210 was always my favourite
10:41:39 <peter1138> andythenorth, is it geographically accurate?
10:44:27 <andythenorth> not sure if that's a fan remake or not
10:45:26 <Borg> dunno, I grab it from original TTD files.. its called "West Country 90201"
11:07:01 <peter1138> Phew, there are people who appreciate the industry/town graphs.
11:13:41 <peter1138> This MH video... I'm sure some of these were in 14.1 already, has it really been this long? :D
11:16:06 <talltyler> 15.0-beta1 was released around Christmas 2024
11:16:21 <talltyler> So yeah, the release process was over a year long
11:18:08 <locosage> wrt process it's more like 15.0 never released and this is 16.0
11:19:36 <locosage> so much stuff changed between betas
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11:21:37 <masteroktagon> Are bits of the map array that are not part of a tiles relevant information saved (and loaded) to/from a savegame file?
11:23:38 <masteroktagon> are they set to 0?
11:28:16 <masteroktagon> hm. that could cause the crash that I hvae right now...
11:31:57 <peter1138> masterhellish, the video is great, thank you!
11:35:04 <masterhellish> Thank you. I am now frantically doing a brand new all the basics video that I'm hoping to get out at the weekend
11:37:20 <Borg> damn.. what a strange feeling :D im playing West Country. but with all those fancy features I have now ;)
11:37:29 <Borg> I remember playing it a lot on vanilla OpenTTD :D
11:50:07 <lea001> For the future good, if OpenTTD shows this message in `openttd.exe -d` debug window:
11:50:07 <lea001> Your script made an error: the index 'AICONFIG_AI_DEVELOPER' does not exist
11:50:07 <lea001> That could be that you set the API version to eg. "15.0" where it should be just "15" in info.nut
11:51:04 <LordAro> lea001: that feels like an error message that could be improved, fancy filing an issue?
11:54:17 <lea001> LordAro: Might do that, but tries to not get side tracked too much. 🙂 But intresting enough, in the source code, that setting was renamed to AICONFIG_DEVELOPER about 11 years ago, prior to the 1.2.0 RC1 release if I read the tags correctly.
11:55:45 <lea001> I don't have any references to it in my source code. So it seems to purely be something interesting happening in OpenTTD when API version is wrongly specified. 🙂
11:58:04 <locosage> omg, there is ctrl+shift magic now
11:58:17 <locosage> never thought I'd learn something from MH video 😅
11:58:46 <locosage> thinking of adding a setting to show them permanently
11:59:25 <kuhnovic> That was new to me as well!
12:02:20 <lea001> I was delighted to see that good old PAXLink managed to perform quite nice in an AI battle by MH. Despite it using actual bus feeders and not station spread tactics.
12:03:24 <lea001> Though,.. I see that it does have a tactic where it use the feeder system to run local buses in some situations, possible to grow the town before using planes from the town.
12:04:03 <locosage> hm, I have missing sprites message on RC2 but not on final release is that normal?
12:08:40 <LordAro> still no HN post, most disappointed
12:14:59 <locosage> that's a different issue
12:15:36 <locosage> I'm not using steam and I don't have missing sprites message even if I select opengfx1
12:15:51 <locosage> I suppose fallback sprites could've been added
12:16:21 <locosage> just didn't see anything about that in the changelog
12:19:29 <locosage> ah, it just doesn't show up in release version
12:19:41 <Borg> LordAro: should I make one? [;
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12:24:44 <locosage> oh, and does 2 platform station really need 5 height levels to allow bridge?
12:25:06 <locosage> makes bridging stations nearly useless in a regular mp game 😢
12:25:52 <locosage> maybe at least build stations without roof by default then
12:26:42 <LordAro> peter1138: i think it's whinge
12:28:30 <peter1138> Not showing up in a release build is probably a bug.
12:28:53 <peter1138> I mean, it's deliberate, but... why.
12:34:25 <LordAro> is it dependent on asserts being enabled? :D
12:36:18 <tabytac> looks like they havent been working since week 48
12:36:26 <_jgr_> Getting a new bug report/ question every day about what this technobabble message about sprites means and how to get rid of it would not be ideal
12:37:01 <_jgr_> The only people who can do anything it are baseset authors, so not showing it to everyone makes sense
12:42:57 <LordAro> tabytac: yeah, there's data in it from one of the RCs it doesn't understand
12:59:36 <peter1138> LordAro, no, just on `IsReleasedVersion()`
13:18:39 <xarick> how do I report script memory usage
13:22:41 <xarick> print peak memory usage in the console
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13:30:16 <xarick> how to expose this to the API
13:33:00 <talltyler> A comment from the Steam news post for 15.0:
13:33:00 <talltyler> > At this rate, OpenTTD will continue to progress far into the future. This may actually be the first game to be a century old whilst continuing to not only have active support but also a live, vibrant community to go with it.
13:33:00 <talltyler> I thought OpenTTD was dead? 😛
13:33:31 <masteroktagon> How should I preferably debug OpenTTD (my fork)? cout'ing everything?
13:35:04 <talltyler> masteroktagon: We're mostly using `fmt::print()` these days, but yeah, that's a good option
13:37:29 <Borg> DooM is also old :) 2 of my favorite games..
13:37:42 <Borg> 3th one is MOO (via 1ooM engine)
13:44:01 <_glx_> lea001: API changelog says `AIInfo::CONFIG_DEVELOPER` was new in 1.2, but there may have been something else only existing in nightlies
13:48:23 <peter1138> `Debug(misc, 0, "");` is what I do...
13:56:21 <_glx_> lea001: looking history around this flag, it looks like it was added and renamed before 1.2.0 RC1, so `AICONFIG_DEVELOPER` never was in a stable API
14:00:17 <_glx_> added november 8th, renamed november 30th
14:02:48 <_glx_> and no handling via compat scripts because it was only present for 1 month in nightlies
14:07:29 <lea001> _glx_: that is fine, just interesting that I get that error when supplying a wrong API version ("15.0" vs "15"), and not having any references to the new or old setting name in my AI.
14:08:54 <_glx_> hmm yeah that's a weird error
14:13:48 <_glx_> message is supposed to be `Debug(script, 1, "Loading info.nut from ({}.{}): GetAPIVersion returned invalid version", info->GetName(), info->GetVersion());`
14:28:36 <_glx_> indeed we should improve the report 🙂
14:31:39 <xarick> should I add mem related stuff in ScriptController or so
14:32:00 <xarick> Cur memory allocated / Peak memory allocated is what I'm interested in
15:19:20 <_glx_> ScriptController is special, the .sq.hpp is not autogenerated
15:19:42 <_glx_> so you have to manually register functions
15:25:19 <xarick> 15:24:47:729 E:\OpenTTD Visual Studio\SamuXarick\OpenTTD\src\script\squirrel_helper.hpp(29): note: see declaration of 'SQConvert::Return<size_t>'
15:25:45 <xarick> error C2027: use of undefined type 'SQConvert::Return<size_t>
15:31:25 <_glx_> oh actually the error seen by @zuu could also come from a broken script scanned before his script
15:32:17 <_glx_> if his AI has `MinVersionToLoad` and `UseAsRandomAI`
15:33:59 <mmtunligit> how do I break up a commit into multiple seperate commits?
15:35:13 <_glx_> my method is interactive rebase, I duplicate the commit and edit each one
15:36:17 <mmtunligit> ok that makes sense i was trying interactive too but couldnt quite figure it out. i was having troube properly removing files from the commit
15:36:38 <_glx_> but if you have only one commit it's easier to `reset HEAD~1` and do a selective add
15:37:36 <_glx_> GUI tools like Github Desktop are nice for that
15:39:07 <_glx_> for safety you can always do a branch first (to have a copy just in case)
15:41:07 <mmtunligit> thats the command i was looking for, thank you
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16:24:07 <xarick> Introduces GetAllocatedMemory and GetPeakAllocatedMemory static methods to AIController and GSController, allowing scripts to query current and peak memory usage. Updates the Squirrel allocator to track peak memory usage, exposes these metrics through the scripting API, and documents the new API additions in the changelogs. Regression tests and expected results are updated to cover the new
16:24:16 <xarick> is this too much copilot?
16:26:54 <xarick> > Using an AI tool to write your issue/comment text is not.
16:31:41 <xarick> I made the code at least
16:33:43 <Borg> ahhh I didnt played on Temperate from quite some time...
16:34:12 <Borg> now.. dual head trains w/ front - rear - wagons arrangement looks gorgeus (freight)
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17:25:02 <_glx_> yes set/map memory usage depends on OS and compiler
17:33:58 <andythenorth> are we really adding explicit memory management to the script APIs?
17:34:05 <andythenorth> this seems like we've lost the plot a bit
17:38:41 <andythenorth> is this just esoteric benchmarking support?
17:38:55 <peter1138> This is just xarick spamming random PRs.
17:39:23 <andythenorth> I can't think of any production environment in my 25 year career where I've personally managed memory allocation from my program
17:39:41 <andythenorth> haven't done that since RiscOS had 4MB and a memory allocation tool
17:40:00 <peter1138> RISC OS had cooperative multitasking too :)
17:40:56 <andythenorth> I mean...am I now supposed to evaluate memory use in GS main loop?
17:41:19 <andythenorth> and run some kind of garbage collection, by guessing what Squirrel does?
17:41:35 <LordAro> tbf current memory allocation is apparently already there
17:41:46 <andythenorth> this is not going to assist me in my goal of copying the entire tile map into a 16k JGRPP map
17:41:48 <andythenorth> which I have tried
17:42:25 <andythenorth> it's only about 1GB or something
17:42:31 <LordAro> oh wait no, that's just ScriptInstance, not an API function
17:42:42 <andythenorth> (I forget the numbers, it was very slow, I only did it once)
17:45:42 <andythenorth> hmm did I relinquish PR closing rights?
17:45:54 <andythenorth> it's time for a cleaning house anyway
17:48:49 <talltyler> Would you like those rights back? I can add you back to the Editors team, which can manage issues and PRs. 🙂
17:51:52 <xarick> okay, i removing the regression test
17:53:03 <_jgr_> I don't really think that it's useful for the scripts themselves either
18:03:14 <andythenorth> talltyler: dunno, sometimes I make regrettable choices 😐
18:03:24 <andythenorth> slight personality disorder 😛
18:03:58 <LordAro> yeah, but then we get someone else to point at
18:05:46 <talltyler> Welcome back to the team then 😄
18:06:20 <talltyler> I've done most of the triage lately, but I've left a lot of old PRs open hoping somebody will finish them
18:06:28 <talltyler> Unfortunately it does not seem to be working 😛
18:06:32 <andythenorth> it's time for a clearout
18:06:38 <andythenorth> we have shipped so much
18:07:02 <talltyler> I wonder if it's worth attaching a label for "good idea to revisit" or something, so old approaches don't get forgotten entirely
18:07:16 <andythenorth> there's a time to empty dead plants out of the plant pots
18:10:50 <talltyler> Right after a big release seems like a good time 🙂
18:11:21 <talltyler> Maybe we can get kuhnovic to adopt the deep water PR 😛
18:12:44 <andythenorth> deep water is just a flavour thing I think
18:13:13 <andythenorth> did it get stuck on tiles?
18:13:22 <andythenorth> can we just overlay something on it?
18:13:53 <talltyler> New sprites may have been a sticking point, but the git history is nowhere near ready for review either
18:15:03 <talltyler> Splitting it into many PRs would have been much easier to review, maybe that was the intention but it never reached that stage. I started with one huge PR for timekeeping to show my intentions, and then made a ton of smaller PRs to actually implement it.
18:15:34 <kuhnovic> That would be fun, but I really don't have the time atm 😟
18:35:19 <_zephyris> Remind me, did I make some deep water sprite designs?
18:36:39 <andythenorth> there's even a todo list 🙂
18:42:15 <kuhnovic> A lot of those look like things that can be enhanced later
18:44:47 <talltyler> River depth seems unneccesary to me, that would simplify things quite a bit
18:53:00 <rito12_51026> andythenorth: Only one thing to do left in it
19:15:24 <mmtunligit> yeah deep water seems more of like a coastal/open ocean sort of thing, rivers just arent big enough for that sort of thing
19:32:45 <peter1138> 18:06 < talltyler> I've done most of the triage lately, but I've left a lot of old PRs open hoping somebody will finish them
19:33:00 <peter1138> is that somebody™ or "somebody"?
19:45:11 <talltyler> peter1138: “somebody” meaning the original author, mostly
19:55:48 <andythenorth> is someone going to yolo approve that soon?
19:55:58 <andythenorth> it's hard more scrutiny than most of original nmlc had 😛
20:00:20 <_zephyris> I would if I had the power 😉
20:15:11 <_glx_> don't update all PR at the same time
20:17:43 <xarick> how to view doxygen output
20:17:53 <_glx_> we now have 4 codeQL running + 2 CI
20:19:21 <_glx_> doxygen output can be made using linux
20:19:54 <_glx_> yes, you need to install doxygen in wsl
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20:20:50 <_glx_> it will be detected by cmake, but if your clone was made on windows you'll need to dos2unix the .sh files in openttd source
20:26:10 <andythenorth> I can't see see who has rights on nml github 🙂
20:33:50 <rito12_51026> Why docs for squirrel api are in header files and not like for the other things in source ones?
20:34:02 <rito12_51026> Does it have to do something with the code that exposes those c++ methods to squirrel?
20:34:32 <_glx_> because we do special handling to not expose everything
20:35:55 <_glx_> so source is filtered for doxygen like it's filtered for the squirrel exports
20:39:12 <mmtunligit> got the house randomizer working :)
20:40:36 <xarick> I don't think simcity even allowed placing houses
20:51:03 <xarick> that's the num gcc is complaining about
20:52:12 <_glx_> yes because it may be unused
20:55:14 <_glx_> ah no the compiler is wrong, it's always initialised to '2' or existing number + 1
20:56:13 <_glx_> but it's not easy for the compiler to be sure about that
20:56:26 <xarick> gcc is also complaining about something else
20:57:56 <_glx_> so not valid doxygen, and it's not gcc complaining, it's intellisense/doxygen/whatever
21:03:16 <_glx_> (replace < with corresponding %code, and enclose the link with <>)
21:08:20 <_glx_> I cound 11 with your search 🙂
21:09:21 <rito12_51026> but one of the is the one xarick found
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21:28:56 <xarick> what are the tiletracks of a buoy at tile 0?
21:30:06 <xarick> 14983, before you merge
21:32:54 <xarick> you didn't do anything about it
21:34:01 <xarick> but now a buoy can be in tile 0, hmm let me see
21:35:19 <xarick> ah it's at station_cmd my bad
22:12:43 <xarick> what is vptr, what to do
22:13:28 <Rubidium> ask your other friend
22:14:39 <andythenorth> I hate LLM phraseology currently
22:14:52 <andythenorth> I am using the robot quite a lot less, becuase it's so grating
22:15:10 <andythenorth> the problem is that they've been trained on user feedback about responses
22:15:24 <andythenorth> but anyone with taste is probably being driven away
22:15:38 <xarick> what my brain undertands: pointers are bad, pointer chasing are bad, less pointer = good, less vptr also less memory
22:15:46 <andythenorth> so now they're just represent the aggregate of people with absolutely no taste
22:17:17 <andythenorth> there are 2 definitions of democracy
22:17:22 <andythenorth> this is the worse one
22:28:59 <talltyler> andythenorth: I have done so, others can help by writing NML docs 🙂
22:36:48 <xarick> so mr copilot is telling me to remove virtual destructors because I use manual allocate deallocate... well mr copilot was also the guy who told me to use virtual and polymorphism
22:37:56 <andythenorth> the robot will just keep rolling dice
22:38:05 <andythenorth> it only understands limited context
22:38:23 <andythenorth> it's just a token prediction algorithm, and what it predicts depends on the prompt
22:39:33 <xarick> I mean, StdAllocator thing wasn't there last week
22:40:00 <xarick> he suggested virtual and poly before that
22:40:09 <xarick> so maybe he's right now
22:40:17 <andythenorth> it has no understanding of the project or what is 'right'
22:40:25 <andythenorth> it just knows what's most common in training data
22:40:37 <andythenorth> and how to simulate that back
22:40:56 <andythenorth> it's wild that it works as convincingly as it does
22:41:02 <andythenorth> but the robot does not understand anything
22:41:26 <andythenorth> things can be known without being understood
22:51:17 <xarick> well, what used to take 558 MiB now takes 555 MiB
22:53:11 <xarick> I'm gonna trust copilot again, kek, he actually made like 95% of the work
22:54:20 <xarick> I ended up in some fails along the way
22:54:58 <xarick> but the darned AI did overcome them
23:00:11 <andythenorth> ((558-555)/558)*100
23:00:38 <reldred> Margin of error type shit
23:01:03 <xarick> i find it strange i can't navigate the whole thing from the root
23:01:34 <andythenorth> it's just the price of being in this channel
23:01:45 <xarick> where are the children member?
23:01:49 <andythenorth> the price used to be "andythenorth will be talkign about grf"
23:01:52 <andythenorth> but I can't compete
23:05:34 <xarick> okay, it exists somewhere... hidden
23:06:13 <_glx_> you are the one supposed to understand your container 🙂
23:07:48 <xarick> it doesn't exist in the root, even though the root is an internal, so it have to have children, it exists, but the debugger doesn't see them
23:08:07 <xarick> some kind of voodoo stuff hidden in static_casts?
23:10:25 <xarick> look at where the keys are and where the values are...
23:10:37 <xarick> they're not even in the same branch
23:17:48 <andythenorth> definitely naptime 🙂
23:22:42 <xarick> hey rito12_51026 I have a few minor fixes in landscape_grid.html
23:22:56 <xarick> if you want to merge them with yours
23:25:57 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think you should try :p
23:26:21 <xarick> oh, that's actually landscape.html :|
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continue to next day ⏵
