IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-12-04
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00:33:50 <talltyler> What if you couldn't build a lock on a river? "No fishkill allowed" 😛
00:34:05 <talltyler> (fish ladders haven't been invented in OpenTTD)
00:34:51 <talltyler> That would simplify things significantly, but I expect we'd get complaints about the change in functionality
00:38:15 <peter1138> Well. You know all the unified picker windows?
00:38:46 <peter1138> I did that because I didn't want to duplicate it all again for the new dock selection window.
00:38:51 <peter1138> It was a side-quest.
00:54:35 <_glx_> poor miners in this wet land
00:55:20 <mmtunligit> reskin coal mines in weat;ands to peat bogs, wouldnt even change the cargo flow in base :P
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01:42:37 <edward044385> I'll help the first 10 people interested on how to start earning $100k or more within a week, but you will reimburse me 10% of your profits when you receive it. Note: only interested people should send a friend request or send me a dm! ask me (HOW) via Telegram username @Edward_Pryce1
01:42:37 <edward044385> Or use the telegram link in my bio
02:05:10 <talltyler> Discord Moderator: Spam ^^
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03:39:32 <ryandtw> so what's the reasoning behind 15.0 getting rid of passwords on multiplayer (getting rid of company passwords in favor of client allow lists, plus authorise specific clients to join multiplayer network/company/remote console without password, and authenticate to the server without sending the password)?
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10:58:21 <xarick> damn it, i don't know how to use std::cout
11:00:28 <xarick> ``` std::cout << "Leaf count=" << leaf->count
11:00:28 <xarick> << " min=(" << (leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[0].first << "," << leaf->keys[0].second << ")" : "N/A")
11:00:28 <xarick> << " max=(" << (leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].first << "," << leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].second << ")" : "N/A")
11:00:28 <xarick> << "\n";``` doesn't work
11:01:34 <locosage> because you're not using cout, you're trying to write to some pointer :p
11:01:50 <locosage> or whatever those are
11:02:40 <locosage> like, what did you expect this to do? `leaf->keys[0].first << ","`
11:03:41 <xarick> someting like" min=(first number, second number) "
11:04:59 <locosage> well, whatever, point is << is just a regular operator
11:06:18 <locosage> you're shifting int or smth by a string
11:07:11 <locosage> it's like writing `5 * "a"`
11:13:39 <locosage> well, except `<<` unlike `*` is defined for streams
11:13:55 <locosage> (stream & << string) returns stream &
11:14:09 <locosage> so `(std::cout << a) << b;` works
11:14:21 <locosage> `std::cout << ("a" << "b")` doesn't
11:14:36 <xarick> this looks absolutely wrong
11:16:42 <xarick> std::string min = leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[0].first + " , " + leaf->keys[1].second : "n/a";
11:16:42 <xarick> std::string max = leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].first + " , " + leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].second : "n/a";
11:20:32 <xarick> in squirrel it's so much simpler
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11:24:12 <peter1138> Debug() or fmt::format, just saying.
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11:26:37 <xarick> .first and .second are a pair
11:28:18 <xarick> of course the guide doesn't teach me how to do it for std::pair
11:29:15 <locosage> at this point I'd guess you just have garbage in your pair
11:29:47 <xarick> can't possibly contain text...
11:30:36 <locosage> why are you adding them to strings then?
11:32:13 <locosage> SQInteger is just int64_t afaict
11:36:36 <locosage> though it's curious how adding ints to a string constant ends up with an invalid pointer into some kind of rtti strings or smth
11:49:42 <xarick> I'm too dumb for this 🙁
11:51:11 <xarick> just print the damn numbers as text!
11:53:01 <locosage> then convert them to damn text :p
11:53:49 <locosage> ffs, just learn the language first, would've saved you countless hours
11:54:46 <kuhnovic> If only I had the same amount of spare time that Xarick is able to waste on things like this
11:56:39 <peter1138> We'd have proper deep water and flowing rivers by now?
11:58:14 <talltyler> I remember the deep water PR 😄
11:59:55 <xarick> if only I were intelligent
12:01:04 <Borg> so? we will have submarines now? in OpenTTD? heh
12:21:42 <_jgr_> std::cout and I/O using the bit shift operators is just terrible in general
12:22:25 <_jgr_> I'd do yourself a favour and just forget it exists in favour of something sensible (like fmt)
12:22:26 <xarick> wow, this was accepted
12:22:26 <xarick> `Debug(misc, 0, "Leaf count={} min=({}) max=({})", leaf->count, (leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[0].first + " , " + leaf->keys[0].second : "n/a"), (leaf->count != 0 ? leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].first + " , " + leaf->keys[leaf->count - 1].second : "n/a"));`
12:25:24 <xarick> :/ why can't I do something so simple...
12:26:22 <xarick> min and max should be integers, not characters
12:31:32 <kaji_kaede> xarick: Because you rush head-first in to trying to do things yourself without any desire to look at actual documentation. You don't even ask the 'stupid' questions. Granted, developers might get frustrated if you ask questions over and over again that you could've learned from looking at cppreference or Microsoft's C++ language reference. But asking for resources to learn more from - heck, even
12:31:32 <kaji_kaede> just asking for some help... That's why you can't do something so simple.
12:31:49 <kaji_kaede> C++ is designed to work. Not to be beginner-friendly.
12:33:23 <Borg> kaji_kaede: I asked stupid questions ;P and got flamed for not reading C++ specs [;
12:33:56 <Borg> kaji_kaede: after fiddling more and more in OpenTTD source.. my acceptance to C++ have lowered significantly [;
12:34:16 <kaji_kaede> kaji_kaede: Granted. Even if you asked simple questions over and over again, it'd still be less frustrating than you posting your failures over and over again without any ability to even look at what you're doing.
12:35:03 <Borg> anyway! its all good now. I got rid of last bugs ;> and I can play again
12:35:04 <kaji_kaede> Borg: Aye. This channel isn't exactly the kiddie pool... I understand devs getting frustrated here.
12:35:22 <Borg> hope I wont spot anything to improve for a little while [;
12:35:23 <kaji_kaede> Very easy to just see 'obvious' solutions that aren't obvious to someone who is learning.
12:36:02 <kuhnovic> Tbh most of us scroll straight past Xarick's gibberish, or will have blocked him altogether
12:36:25 <kuhnovic> I definitely gave up on teaching him anything. He tends to be in read-only mode most of the time.
12:36:48 <Borg> so.. he choosed OpenTTD as his C++ teaching projects? ;)
12:38:22 <locosage> haha, I also just wanted to improve a few things
12:38:36 <locosage> that was 13 years ago and my todo list is still growing xD
12:38:53 <Borg> locosage: haha :) im stubborn.. so I clean up my todo list quite quickly
12:39:09 <Borg> today.. I "wasted" 3 hours understanding autoreplace_cmd.cpp
12:39:22 <Borg> and to fix my dualhead locos handling...
12:39:23 <kuhnovic> I started off wanting to implement a small feature (auto remove signal). Fast forward a few years and I found myself writing a whole new pathfinder. Woops.
12:39:42 <Borg> I see YAPF is very good!
12:40:14 <Borg> at least in 1.8.0 where I keep working.. hope you didnt borked it more recent versions..
12:40:40 <kuhnovic> Good as in performance... yes. In term of code understandability... there is room for improvement 😛
12:41:01 <Borg> hmm I guess [; but for what I needed to do.. it was okish
12:41:18 <kuhnovic> I wrote a new YAPF implementation for ships for 14.0
12:41:28 <Borg> the biggest issue last time I had.. was that super hidden feature where train can wait at PBS where he see free platforms ahead...
12:41:38 <Borg> the hidden gem was this:
12:42:15 <kuhnovic> Again, why still on 1.8 😛 ?
12:42:22 <Borg> if (n.m_num_signals_passed >= m_sig_look_ahead_costs.Size() / 2) return 0;
12:42:35 <Borg> kuhnovic: legacy OS.. and I really like 1.8.0 :) its lean
12:42:50 <Borg> my game style is rather unique
12:43:06 <Borg> im into micromanagement not building huge maps and rails
12:43:11 <kuhnovic> So is your dev style being on such an old version 😛 but hey, to each their own!
12:43:52 <Borg> anyway. due to this part of code.. w/ I like.. I keep look_ahead_signals = 5
12:44:13 <locosage> tbf openttd gameplay hasn't changed much since forever 😜
12:44:37 <Borg> locosage: hard to say... people used to do weird stuff... openttdcoop is one example ;)
12:44:53 <locosage> they still do the same stuff
12:45:27 <Borg> locosage: for example. I dont really get the thrill for huge maps.. especially larger that 4096 x 4096.. :) but some ppl like that
12:45:38 <locosage> if anything changed in coop style it's that they're actively using cmclient now ;)
12:45:42 <Borg> most of time I play on 256x128 :)
12:46:59 <kuhnovic> So are you unable to build modern versions of openttd, or are you just sticking to the "things were better in the good old days" version?
12:48:24 <kuhnovic> In general we tend to mostly add features and try not to break to many things, so I'd definitely go to a more modern version if you can. Many quality of life features and tons of fixes. But if you can't build it then you're out of luck.
12:48:47 <Borg> kuhnovic: dunno. I play 1.8.0 from many many years
12:49:00 <Borg> and I dont miss anything.. I checked jgr openttd client
12:49:07 <peter1138> We only "flame" Borg for coding against 1.8 :p
12:49:16 <Borg> and... the only thing I liked was routing restrictions.. with I backported to 1.8 :)
12:49:54 <Borg> yeah ;) I even posted it on forums.. but barely any interest
12:50:05 <Borg> s/barely/none/ :) to be honest
12:50:21 <locosage> I'd still happily play on 1.8 if I didn't run servers
12:50:25 <kuhnovic> And tbh JGR is the other end of the spectrum, with tons of extra features. Regular openttd sits somewhere in between.
12:50:58 <Borg> locosage: I run 1.8.0 (I mean bp-0.621) sometimes [;
12:51:18 <Borg> but.. I play only using BSPI.grf + X2025.grf + my GS
12:51:59 <Borg> all features on :) so game can be challenging
12:52:23 <locosage> nah, I only play cmclient and for 1.8 it's absolutely ancient by now
12:52:43 <locosage> nothing that couldn't be backported ofc but no reason to do so
12:53:35 <Borg> the LinkGraph patch is actually interesting.. but no interest
12:53:47 <Borg> I guess.. people dont use it? I wonder how the managed they networks [;
12:54:00 <Borg> but.. it might be not really needed.. if stuff is mostly static
12:54:33 <locosage> I don't use link graph, I just build stuff and forget
12:54:36 <kuhnovic> All new openttd features are obviously junk
12:54:44 <locosage> no time to look back at the pace I'm playing
12:54:55 <Borg> locosage: ahh :) yeah.. old style gameplay
12:55:01 <Borg> it was fine for a while :) but got me bored
12:55:10 <Borg> in BSPI.grf stuff is dynamic
12:55:17 <Borg> industries vanish.. you need to prospect
12:55:18 <locosage> it's not old, it's competitive
12:55:26 <locosage> you either do it right or you're screwed either way
12:55:28 <Borg> production can changes.. you need to adjust
12:55:44 <Borg> ahhh thats different story :) I dont play competetive..
12:56:28 <Borg> so LinkGraph is usefull to see what goes where.. and w/ my patch is even more usefull. you can see where you have poor rating.. or excees cargos.. so you can move some of it somewhere else where is needed
12:57:15 <Borg> so.. its always sth to do :) hence.. playing on small maps is preffered.. because.. on large.. you wont be able to control the whole network
12:57:38 <Borg> unless multiplayer coop.. where few people sit on same company.. and they split regions
12:57:45 <Borg> but I never tried this one [;
12:58:05 <_jgr_> The primary use case for cargodist/the link graph is really pax/mail, not freight
12:58:36 <Borg> _jgr_: yeah.. but its still usefull when freight is in CM_MANUAL
12:58:42 <Borg> but color is useless.. my patch fixes that
12:59:09 <Borg> in complex network.. moving cargo in many directions.. w/o LinkGraphOverlay I would easly get lost
12:59:39 <Borg> but again. in static game. its not really needed indeed
12:59:43 <peter1138> 12:53 < Borg> the LinkGraph patch is actually interesting.. but no interest
12:59:54 <Borg> you setup network.. put trains and vioala.. you forget about it
12:59:57 <peter1138> Unless it's a PR against master, we are not going to be interested, no.
13:00:06 <Borg> peter1138: I can make it work on master
13:00:16 <Borg> but! first I need so see some interest in forums
13:01:23 <peter1138> If you wrote it as a bullet-point list of visible changes, that might have more interest. As it is it's a wall of text that's hard to understand.
13:01:43 <peter1138> e.g. "No more middle dark line" is better written as "Removed the dark line"
13:02:24 <peter1138> But also probably on the JGRPP thread is ever read in there :)
13:03:13 <Borg> but but but I provided screenshots [;
13:04:03 <peter1138> 1.8 doesn't have routing restrictions, so anyone looking at that part is going to be confused.
13:04:56 <peter1138> For some changes, like the linkgraph, it can be useful to show before and after pictures of exactly the same area and view, so that the changes are more obvious.
13:05:33 <Borg> routing restrictions arent mentioned there.. all those patches in that thread are separate
13:05:46 <Borg> I forgot to do screenshots [; for comparision
13:05:55 <peter1138> "[BP] Various Borg patches" does mention it.
13:08:04 <Borg> that part is more for JGR branch then hehe..
13:08:13 <Borg> but yeah... all of them are separate
13:12:37 <Borg> but thats ok. I shared.. I dont mind whatever it gets interest or not :)
13:12:49 <peter1138> Which version of JGRPP though? Head? :)
13:13:12 <peter1138> (It would be surprising to be stuck on 1.8, yet also working on JGRPP.)
13:13:13 <Borg> nah :> someone close to 1.8.0 and 1.9.0 :)
13:13:26 <Borg> luicky for me.. jgr added routing restrictions early
13:13:29 <peter1138> Okay, so potentially unlikely to be interesting for anyone using JGRPP.
13:13:46 <Borg> nah.. it can be forward ported :) I think
13:13:58 <Borg> I looked at master at jgr's and there is still no and-if
13:14:21 <peter1138> (Not criticising, just coming with reasons for lack of interest :))
13:14:22 <Borg> but jgr said that entry signal is not used often. and they dont have signal state check either
13:14:39 <Borg> so.. more complicated if's might not be needed indeed
13:15:59 <Borg> peter1138: I dont mind criticism.. I will agree or not to it :) thats all
13:16:24 <Borg> im aware that I do very niche stuff.. its been always like this
13:16:34 <Borg> all my patches are not very popular..
13:16:54 <Borg> DOOM, AI War Fleet Command, 1ooM, OpenTTD, TRS2004
13:16:57 <Borg> and probably some more [;
13:17:33 <Borg> they are really made to please my needs.. I share.. but well :)
13:17:35 <peter1138> I have commits in dsda-doom :D
13:17:59 <Borg> oh.. never heard about that port... I used to use ZDoom. but moved to Zandronum due to multiplayer
13:18:05 <Borg> we play sometimes some coop games :)
13:18:31 <Borg> of course.. as you guess.. using old Zandronum fork ;)
13:19:17 <Borg> just 14 commits on my fixes branch in Zandronum
13:19:32 <Borg> uh.. OpenTTD already have 28 :D
13:19:52 <kuhnovic> As a developer it's forbidden for me to play openttd
13:20:17 <Borg> huh? ;) I never understand that logic..
13:20:34 <Borg> I have intensive coding senssions.. then break.. and I play
13:20:45 <Borg> when I get bored or idea pops in.. Im back to coding sessions
13:20:47 <davidxn> Oh, what did you do in the ZDoom world?
13:21:03 <kuhnovic> It's just a joke that's going around among the devs here
13:21:07 <Borg> davidxn: few mods that were popular for a bit..
13:21:20 <Borg> and I have just few bug fixes.. nothing major
13:21:37 <Borg> but then I got fed up they kept breaking zandronum.. and forked old 2.1.2 branch
13:21:42 <kuhnovic> We enjoy the development more than we do the actual playing, and as a result we hardly ever play the game
13:22:12 <peter1138> And when we play the game, we see something that could be fixed... and get sidetracked on that.
13:22:27 <Borg> peter1138: haha yeah :D happens to me sometimes
13:23:11 <Borg> davidxn: I also maintain WinZETH fork [; but.. its barelly baing used
14:10:13 <Borg> ahh I didnt mentioned my zoom2x patch there [; for vanilla OpenTTD
14:11:21 <_zephyris> Sorry talltyler, didn't fully think my suggestion through!
14:12:04 <Borg> peter1138: you might like it.. because I managed to do it w/ minimal changes to smallmap_gui.cpp :) I cloned SmallMapWindow::DrawSmallMapColumn2() for my own sanity [;
14:12:35 <Borg> 3 files changed, 87 insertions(+), 26 deletions(-)
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14:21:29 <_zephyris> w00p, nml updates are working
14:34:17 <ahyangyi> Getting sidetracked in a transportation-themed game seems about right.
14:36:14 <talltyler> Better sidetracked than derailed.
14:37:51 <peter1138> Do we have links to published versions of NML, grfcodec, etc?
14:38:31 <peter1138> Or is it go to github and download there?
14:45:03 <LordAro> actually, i say that, doesn't look like grfcodec's been updated in a while...
14:54:10 <kaibaneddy> Def time for a new grfcodec release 🙃
15:01:31 <peter1138> Did NML support non-wav sounds yet? I can't remember if I changed it.
15:05:37 <brickblock19280> I don't think so
15:08:34 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe it doesn't check.
15:29:32 <Rubidium> LordAro: grfcodec releases don't get onto the website anymore. It got broken, I've made a PR that likely doesn't work in the hope that someone who has a clue what should be going on will complete it
15:32:09 <jfkuayue> heute ist mein geburtstag :p
15:42:04 <peter1138> Rubidium, hmm, rebase and "give it a go"?
15:42:13 <peter1138> "What's the worst that can happen?"
18:20:15 <Borg> so... I went kinda extreme and implemented Gold Ore + Chemicals on Arctic.. and now I strugle to keep whole economy up sometimes..
18:20:46 <Borg> no Gold to banks... workers go to strike because no money.. and production is capped at 25% at primary industries.. woops.. ;)
18:38:54 <Rubidium> peter1138: I see no reason why a rebase would be needed. Also, who is caring enough in that repository to do much more than 'fire and forget'?
18:45:49 <peter1138> Oh, I assumed it was out of date, but I guess not :D
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20:43:07 <rito12_51026> Squirrel is awful.
20:46:17 <rito12_51026> I have finally figured out why only one of 3 events form #14637 worked.
20:46:17 <rito12_51026> A lack of space in class definition was the reason.
20:46:56 <rito12_51026> Red one is working and the green one isn't.
20:55:59 <Rubidium> that has nothing to do with Squirrel, just with the 'magic' that has been created to generate the boilerplate to expose OpenTTD functions in the Squirrel VM
20:56:45 <Rubidium> and that 'magic' is quite opinionated on the coding style that's required
20:57:50 <xarick> I wonder why Intellisense can't parse my slop with nice colours
20:59:20 <xarick> sometimes it looks nice
20:59:20 <xarick> then after a few seconds it forgets:
20:59:43 <peter1138> Yup, you caby blame squirrel for our generators.
21:07:10 <mmtunligit> rito12_51026: the badge filter crashes should be sorted out next time i push, it was duw to the order of the widgets in the header file. I've got a little bit more to work out with some other stuff but hopefully itll be up in the next few days
21:28:20 <Borg> okey. anyone w/ good knowledge of YAPF around? for quick question? I know its late..
21:28:29 <Borg> so if nope, Ill try to catch someone tomorrow
21:33:05 <talltyler> Is there anyone with good knowledge of YAPF...? 😛
21:33:15 <talltyler> Maybe Kuhnovic, who is not online on Discord currently 🙂
21:35:34 <Rubidium> the problem with asking for someone with 'good knowledge' being online causes everyone to think they're not good enough, even though they might know the answer to the question you're going to ask
21:35:54 <Borg> Rubidium: nah.. if I ask like this.. question will be devious and hard :D
21:36:19 <Borg> anyway... what happens after game load.. does YAPF safes most of it state? cached nodes? etc?
21:36:37 <Borg> or.. it does recheck after load?
21:36:56 <Borg> Im in middle of bug hunt :) odd one... so first I need to reproduce it..
21:37:07 <Borg> never ever saw it on vanilla 1.8.0
21:37:11 <Borg> so it must be my changes
21:37:30 <Borg> and only stuff YAPF touches is RR...
21:39:21 <Rubidium> that's a devious question? YAPF doesn't save state.
21:39:32 <Borg> Rubidium: so after load it just recomputes paths?
21:42:06 <peter1138> No. Vehicmes call the pathfibder when they need to make decision.
21:42:15 <Rubidium> well... it will recompute paths at every location where it needs to make a decision. For trains the amount of locations where it needs to make a decision is reduced by having path reservations
21:42:58 <Borg> ahh. okey. so reservations are saved..
21:43:14 <Borg> hmz hmz.. now im more puzzled...
21:44:00 <Borg> I have problem w/ one train. that occasionaly picks absolutly crap path.. and it cleanups... of course it can happen on rebuilding of rails.. but I dont remember doing anything.. I think I loaded game...
21:44:17 <Borg> noticed that my Gold Mine have shit ratting.. checked train.. vioala.. shit path (a lot of implict stations)
21:44:31 <peter1138> There is also a cache for roas vehicles and ships but thats outside the pathfinder and relatively dumb/simple.
21:44:33 <Borg> so I tracked the train and it did good.. (implict station clear)
21:44:56 <Borg> so now I wonder. whatever I have weird bug.. or I forgot I was doing adjustments..
21:45:01 <Borg> as I said.. for now.. SINGLE train..
21:46:06 <peter1138> Usual rwason is it tried to find a depot and that took it somewhere else.
21:46:21 <Borg> yeah, thats what I tought at first..
21:46:38 <Borg> but it wasnt the case.. train is not load enough
21:46:49 <Borg> and I play w/ no breakdowns and I always have Maintain at <depot> order
21:47:08 <Borg> but! RR are in place on path... but once path is reserved there should be no problem..
21:47:17 <Borg> but first.. I need to confirm it and reproduce...
21:49:18 <Borg> lets send it for maintenance
21:52:14 <Borg> clicking ctrl+depot. to send for maintenace sends to nearest.. not the one w/ order ;)
21:55:51 <Borg> the only difference compared to all other trains is disjoint Rail Station.. 2 of them.. one for Gold Ore and second for Coal.. and RR w/ cargo check
21:56:08 <Borg> and only Gold Ore one gets weird paths sometimes... so :) mystery..
21:58:15 <Borg> ohh happened again.. just right now..
22:03:02 <Borg> using RR Deny should be used w/ caution
22:03:41 <Borg> and also its not substitution for Waypoints
22:04:02 <Borg> if you want certain path.. dont play w/ RR too much... use waypoint
22:04:17 <Borg> so.. because I love multipaths... and so pathfinder is tuned for it
22:04:27 <Borg> and very rary.. Gold Ore train picks detour
22:04:47 <Borg> because in detour it sees path to that Coal Station (shared w/ Gold Ore)
22:04:56 <Borg> but because look ahead signals is 5 (10 would not help either)
22:05:20 <Borg> RR dont kick ins.. but when train aproaches closer... the Deny RR kicks in. because I want Gold Ore to load from its own bay
22:05:37 <Borg> and vioala.. train gets "lost".. start to take huge detour now..
22:06:07 <Borg> okey.. time to use waypoint more often... especially when I want to spread loading trains..
22:08:20 <Borg> no wonder I never saw it in vanilla 1.8.0 :) I didnt had RR
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continue to next day ⏵
