IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-08-31
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00:08:35 <polymorphZ> You use linux? right?
00:14:22 <dwfreed> dpkg-query is specific to debian-based distros, it's not even universally applicable
00:14:34 <dwfreed> but if you're going to spam it everywhere, I might just ban you from the network
01:26:39 <polymorphZ> ok yeas but debian is the largest with most packages, so if you want everything you probably use that
01:27:20 <polymorphZ> dwfreed: i have modded the chkrootkit systemd timer now, i wonder if it will only hog system resources once a month now instead of daily trashing the system
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04:38:10 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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06:15:09 <sipos> Hi, I'm trying to get the original music working on Linux. I have an /usr/share/openttd/baseset/orig_win.obm, which came with openttd, which includes lines like `GM_TT00.GM = 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221` in the md5s section, and I have placed the files which match these MD5s with these names (as in GM_TT00.GM etc, capitalised as in the obm file) in /usr/share/openttd/baseset. This worked fine for the original_dos GFX/SFX/MSX, and original_windows
06:15:09 <sipos> GFX/SFX, but doesn't seem to for the original music for Windows. When I open openttd, the original_windows option for music doesn't show up. I've also tried them in a subdirectory called gm, and with the file names all in lowercase. Anyone got any ideas on what I am doing wrong?
06:19:42 <sipos> (also tried lower-case file extension and upper case name, also in gm/ subdirectory and the /usr/share/openttd/baseset directory directly)
07:30:11 <peter1138> sipos, if you have original_dos bits working there is no need to use original_windows.
07:32:05 <peter1138> Well, I couldn't join the 8am ride this morning because I woke up at 8am :(
07:44:57 <_zephyris> You went for a 'tight crop' on the tracks? The full width ones, ie. with ballast etc., fit better with the original bridge designs, and might better overlay any underlying infra...
07:45:13 <_zephyris> (I know, realism, ballast on bridges, blah blah).
07:48:47 <_zephyris> ((but also, awesome, and thank you))
07:53:17 <peter1138> Well, my screenshot uses an example of bridges that want a narrow transport surface.
07:53:57 <peter1138> Monorail is particularly tricky either way.
07:54:53 <andythenorth> can I paste monorail gifs?
07:56:00 <peter1138> But I do wonder if it should be gated behind flags.
07:59:19 <sipos> peter1138, Thanks. Is the music just the same then?
08:01:21 <sipos> Sorry, GTG, but thanks.
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08:10:20 <_zephyris> Yeah, monorail is tricky...
08:11:01 <_zephyris> All the original graphics sit on the same width brown ballast ish stuff, which is why I went for that.
08:12:14 <_zephyris> IMO initial implementation should be full width, narrow bridge sets using current bridge newgrf could provide narrow alternates, then hypothetical future newgrf support could be cleverer
08:12:46 <_zephyris> But a solution is better than no solution 😉
08:14:48 <LordAro> dwfreed: i have no idea what problem those scripts are supposed to solve
08:17:17 <LordAro> dpkg-query is not something i typically associate with high usage
08:21:43 <sipos> Sorry, is the original DOS music (rather than SFX) the same as the original Windows music?
08:24:56 <peter1138> Yes, Other than minor bug fixes (and new bugs) there's no difference in content between the DOS and Windows versions. Also have you tried lowercase .gm files? That always worked for me.
08:34:59 <peter1138> _zephyris, can you post those sprites to the PR please? I don't have the non-trimmed ones any more.
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09:10:15 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> Hi, I'm Cornelius, known as diekmann on GitHub. I had a few free days and thought I'm exploring the OpenTTD codebase and give back to the community of the game I love by maybe doing some small non-opinionated non-controversial codehealth cleanups if I stumble upon something. I may have accidentally sent the most opinionated and controversial PRs this week.
09:10:15 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> Normally, I'm not on discord, but I thought I'm coming here to say hi.
09:10:15 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> Do I read correctly that https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/14556 is not appreciated? I really thought that improving consistency across the codebase by following existing code was a good thing and not opinionated. Not perfect (`TileIndex` not touched), but good. I even disabled any automated Copilot integration in my VS Code for Peter.
09:10:15 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> Should I just close my PRs and move on?
09:26:57 <Rubidium> start by being aware that there are plenty of forks and patches. In that view doing some mass rename would be 'breaking' a lot of things. For example, I just wanted to mass rename .h to .hpp so everything is consistent, or just run a tool to mass-fix coding style, and both were not received well because they are a massive change and require a lot of effort to review.
09:27:30 <_jgr_> I can't speak on behalf of anyone else, however from my point of view, the PR is a moderately large diff which doesn't materially change or fix anything. The old and new states are both fine. This absorbs reviewer time. Less importantly these sorts of changes create noise in tooling such as git blame, but this may not be relevant for other developers.
09:28:59 <_jgr_> In terms of forks/patches though, for the record I don't think progress should be blocked just because it makes life a tad more difficult for people like me
09:29:55 <Rubidium> _jgr_: it's more that mass changes also break basically all open PRs, grinding them to a halt as well... but then again, maybe anything untouched for over a year should be auto-closed?
09:30:35 <andythenorth> it's a thought 🙂
09:30:53 <andythenorth> most of the good stuff is in Peter's git stash anyway 😛
09:33:40 <Rubidium> second, what is non-controversial and non-opinionated? Given the point above, we change things to the better in small steps whenever we need to touch the code. A pet-peeve for me are variables for which it's not immediately clear what they are, especially single letter ones. So in that context longer/more descriptive variable names are usually better, so it might be consistent to go to `t` it's also
09:33:46 <Rubidium> making it harder to know what `t` is. So, in this context you made the choice that shorter is better and I'd say that's not the case making it controversial. Judging what is going to be opinionated or controversial is hard though.
09:36:38 <michi_cc> I think it’s mostly a risk vs. work vs. reward thing. Accepting any PR is a risk that a bug/regression is missed during review or that PRs written before get subtly broken. This is something that can only be mitigated by work. And generally speaking, work is only done when it promises some kind of reward.
09:36:38 <michi_cc> A pure refactor PR has almost zero reward.
09:37:43 <michi_cc> Thus any kind of code cleanup mostly happens when an area of code is touched to fix a bug or implement a feature anyway.
09:39:14 <michi_cc> Because then you have a reward and need to review the code anyway, so the additional work of some refactoring is low.
10:04:51 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> 🤔 I see. That's a different philosophy than the codebase I have been working on for work the past years.
10:13:13 <ahyangyi> I can't say for the OpenTTD developers, but I think that adding unit tests has a much, much smaller risk of creating unneeded merge conflicts.
10:15:41 <LordAro> mm, the unit test issue is entirely separate (mostly because of the whole AI thing)
10:16:24 <LordAro> someone with knowledge of the map array & tile system needs to review all the fixmes to see whether they're valid or not (hence my suggestion of actually looking into them and actually fixing something)
10:18:25 <ahyangyi> I think it's the author's burden, though someone with the knowledge could offer some hints.
10:19:32 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> I think we already have agreement in the PR comments that the free bit tests should be removed and docs/landscape_grid.html should be updated. Simple unit tests will remain. But what about the PR in general?
10:19:47 <LordAro> PR in general is fine
10:20:22 <LordAro> it just may take a while for anyone to bother reviewing it, as ultimately it requires someone to actually take an interest in it
10:20:42 <LordAro> (see also the other 128 open PRs ;) )
10:29:48 <LordAro> i don't mind 'U' though
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10:43:14 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> Also, there is no consensus whether it should be `Tile t` (which is predominant in the codebase) or `Tile tile`.
10:43:14 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> My idea was that the actual review burden of that PR should be small, since scrolling through the change in Github in a webbrowser is rather quick, since only identifiers are changed. "It compiles" is actually some sort of proof of correctness as long as only identifier names are changed and the TBD unit tests could double check that this is a safe no-op PR. But if there are other issues, it's
10:43:14 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> probably not worth continuing?
10:44:52 <LordAro> noise with no end goal is just noise
10:45:06 <LordAro> if you can come up with a good reason for the changes, then sure
10:45:09 <LordAro> but otherwise, yeah, leave it
10:45:12 <andythenorth> in the future the robots can do the noise
10:45:20 <andythenorth> the agents can all just talk to each other about the PRs
10:48:52 <bubbly_sparrow_28906> and it should be a `Tile`. This really looks like a copy&paste error, since the rest of the file uses `t` for `Tile`. Uniformity would have prevented this. But if you say "no", then it's "no".
10:50:53 <LordAro> the comments from talltyler & kuhnovic are the crucial ones imo - translating all the variables to 't' is not a particularly desirable change
10:51:08 <LordAro> 'tile' would be better, but then that's very definitely a much bigger change
10:51:17 <LordAro> (and might run into issues with TileIndexes and so forth)
10:51:42 <LordAro> essentially, it just needs some more thought behind it than a what's essentially a find and replace
10:52:26 <sipos> peter1138, Thanks! Yes, I tried the filenames in lower case. For now, everything is fine just using the original_dos music (not actually sure which I like better, that or the replacements, anyway, can't remember what I used last time I was into this), but I might have a look with a debugger to see what is happening at some point to satisfying my curiosity.
10:58:26 <ahyangyi> andythenorth: And they can also eliminate the worst part from their perspective: the game needs to be played by a human
11:01:11 <_jgr_> bubbly_sparrow_28906: At a conceptual level, changing the code because of a typo in a comment seems a bit back to front? The comment could just be fixed.
11:03:05 <_jgr_> Preventing type mixups is handled by the type system, not by what local variables are named, but this does not apply to illustrative code in comments.
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12:08:59 <talltyler> LordAro: If you update the changelog and someone approves the website post, I can push buttons to release beta3 today. 🙂
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13:54:33 <dwfreed> LordAro: I think the issue was something was calling dpkg-query *a lot*
13:57:39 <ahyangyi> Then, perhaps fix (or get rid of) that something?
14:00:49 <dwfreed> yeah, that's what I told them
14:01:07 <dwfreed> they posted that stupid script in several places
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14:35:53 <peter1138> Presumably there's a visual issue that requires effects to be hidden under bridges.
14:37:28 <_glx_> yeah hidding effect when under the bridge makes sense
14:38:17 <peter1138> I'm wondering if it does :)
14:39:21 <_glx_> mostly for sparks I guess, but puffs are effects too, so all are hidden
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14:40:42 <_glx_> in typical case it's almost unnoticeable because it's just for 1 tile
14:41:08 <_glx_> bridge over bridgehead is not typical 😉
14:41:20 <peter1138> Well, this is also a bug.
14:42:50 <peter1138> Okay, hiding steam smoke under 1 high bridges is definitely necessary.
14:43:51 <_glx_> yeah main issue is detection of bridge above the vehicle
14:46:10 <peter1138> If it's *on* a bridge middle, then there's no bridge above (until someone adds crossing bridges)
15:00:19 <peter1138> Something like that.
15:00:42 <peter1138> Now, is the too-low road bridge a result of my recent changes...
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15:25:29 <peter1138> How hot is this path, I wonder.
15:25:49 <peter1138> Testing IsBridgeAbove() first makes the code make less sense.
15:31:17 <_jgr_> To me at least it makes sense to check whether there is any bridge above before working out whether you're actually under it or not
15:31:48 <_jgr_> It's not likely to be very hot in the big scheme of things
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17:05:43 <_glx_> pff stupid squirrel doing allocation then placement new
17:06:36 <digitalfox> lordaro4353: is making us wait for 23:59 to push the beta3 changelog PR update button 😆
17:08:41 <_glx_> size is stored, then the object is constructed and reset the size
17:09:41 <truebrain> replace Squirrel with lua when? 😄
17:11:28 <Rubidium> why lua and not python? :D
17:11:28 <peter1138> Gotta love 1-based indexing?
17:12:02 <LordAro> embedded python is A Thing
17:12:25 <peter1138> It's not WASM though.
17:14:22 <LordAro> peter1138: does that vehicle effect bridge issue need changelogging, or was it caused by stations-over-bridges?
17:15:28 <peter1138> Vehicle effect on bridges is not related to that.
17:16:04 <peter1138> I'm investigating the additional bridge head bridge issue.
17:16:27 <peter1138> (Which is caused by that.)
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17:28:55 <peter1138> beta3 changelog is now out of date ;(
17:30:58 <peter1138> (I cannot reapprove)
17:32:53 <LordAro> of course not, it's your PR :p
17:34:01 <Rubidium> but then LordAro can approve :D
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17:58:03 <talltyler> Anything else for beta3 before I release it in 30 minutes or so?
17:58:30 <LordAro> bridgehead thing seems fairly important
17:58:42 <LordAro> no major rush on the script allocation issue
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17:59:53 <LordAro> you'll have to do any further changelogs yourself :p
18:08:58 <talltyler> Doesn’t need to go in the changelog, since it was introduced after the last beta 😉
18:17:09 <peter1138> LordAro, surely you can access GitHub while in the pub?
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18:43:36 <peter1138> talltyler, beta3 CI completed.
18:46:57 <Rubidium> I guess you mean the changelog PR? Or has the tag already been made before merging the changelog PR?
18:48:03 <talltyler> That's Charlie India, not Charlie Lima, so I assume CI checks on the changelog PR are done allowing it to be merged
18:48:39 <peter1138> Changelog PR, sorry.
18:53:30 <talltyler> Now we watch the flowchart 🙂
18:56:14 <talltyler> Maybe I should replace the Steam image with something that shows bridges over stations...
19:10:21 <Rubidium> hmm... I'm seeing `Windows-latest` is going to Windows Server 2025 in a few days. Might be that we are just in time with pressing the buttons to prevent that messing up the release (again)
19:11:07 <talltyler> GOG upload failed: `HTTP Error 301: Moved Permanently (//files.gog.com/galaxy/pipeline/version.json)`
19:17:29 <talltyler> Steam seems to have updated though
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19:18:47 <Rubidium> the website as well, so it's only gog that's 'broken'
19:19:49 <peter1138> Did they change their process and we didn't notice?
19:24:33 <peter1138> _glx_, weird of me to comment that there, 3 years after it was merged. But, eh...
19:24:46 <peter1138> I wonder what I was doing at the time.
19:26:27 <_glx_> I tested windows-2025 when they started to announce the windows-latest switch and found no issues
19:27:33 <_glx_> macos-15 was another story
19:28:34 <andythenorth> pff how do I DM peter1138 about lunch if he's not in discord and I'm not in irc 😛
19:31:41 <talltyler> pff how do I make a Steam news post, is it not under Steamworks?
19:38:41 <talltyler> Can others help with:
19:40:17 <talltyler> I have done Discord and TT-Forums
19:40:26 <talltyler> And am still trying to figure out Steam 🙂
19:41:03 <talltyler> The release post says we also do Microsoft Store and GOG, but GOG is broken. Who has access to Microsoft Store?
19:42:46 <peter1138> I've done fediverse, I moved the account off of fosstodon a while ago though.
19:44:18 <peter1138> Now I'm getting spammed with notifications :o
19:44:59 <peter1138> Is this the first with the new menu layout?
19:45:34 <talltyler> Do I not have permissions to add news posts...?
19:47:02 <talltyler> Hey truebrain, can you check if I have permissions to make a Steam news post? I cannot find the Hub Admin panel in Steamworks. 🙂
19:47:14 <talltyler> Might be a skill issue 🙂
19:47:23 <truebrain> Hey talltyler , I think last time we left it with: let me know if you created an account and let me talk you through it 😛 😄
19:47:25 <truebrain> So that can be right 😉
19:47:27 <peter1138> Place bets on how long til someone complains about toyland...
19:48:01 <truebrain> now I need to remember where the buttons are ... 😛
19:48:05 <talltyler> I can log in to Steamworks, just can't the page with this button
19:48:21 <talltyler> (screenshot from Steam's own documentation)
19:52:00 <truebrain> login on this subsite, and on this, and on this
19:52:07 <truebrain> Steam always makes me dizzy
19:53:58 <truebrain> You are not member of OpenTTD
19:54:03 <truebrain> it tells me after 20 clicks
19:54:20 <truebrain> You did create an account on your OpenTTD.org account, right?
19:54:32 <truebrain> Who the fuck did I ping?
19:55:15 <talltyler> I need a separate Steam account on my openttd.org account?
19:55:40 <talltyler> The account I sent you has admin rights for OpenTTD, I can log in to Steamworks and manage the game
19:55:41 <truebrain> You fixed that last time we talked about this, yes 🙂
19:56:07 <truebrain> yeah, there are 2 systems ... Steamworks, and Steam Community
19:56:12 <truebrain> and they do not sync or anything
19:56:25 <truebrain> they also have 2 logins
19:56:38 <truebrain> so make sure in the top right corner on Steamworks that you see that too on Steam Community
19:57:25 <truebrain> I hate how Steam does user management, it is just a clusterfuck of unclear information : (Sorry Steam, but it is)
19:58:39 <talltyler> I don't believe I have a second account for Steamworks.
20:08:01 <truebrain> Slowly we are winning the game called "How to post an update on Steam"
20:21:08 <peter1138> Not quite there with follows, 831 of them.
20:21:08 <truebrain> gratz talltyler and your first post on Steam 🙂
20:42:49 <andythenorth> 65k railtypes for beta 4? 👀
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20:43:15 <sosmakaroni> I haven’t checked in a while on how the “badges” process is progressing. I see there’s a beta update now, and it includes the filter function buttons. But it doesn’t work for me: under the “Propulsion Battery” filter it still shows “Diesel” as well. Is there something wrong with the GRF, or is the feature not operational yet and only the buttons are in place?
20:44:10 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I would first like extensive proof that 65k railtypes is enough :D
20:52:39 <peter1138> I'll assume it's not possible to see the GRF, so we cannot say.
20:53:36 <talltyler> While poking around Steam ~~trying in vain to find the New Announcement button~~ I had a look at cloud save setup.
20:53:36 <talltyler> Is there a reason we can't enable Steam Auto-Cloud?
20:53:45 <talltyler> > Steam Auto-Cloud is an alternative to the Steam Cloud API that allows apps to use Steam Cloud without writing code or modifying the game in any way. It only requires that you specify the file groups which you want persisting to the Cloud. Steam will automatically sync the groups of files when the application launches and exits.
20:53:58 <truebrain> I should make a FAQ for that
20:54:34 <talltyler> I know we've discussed cloud saves, but someone always brings up code licenses, so I wasn't sure if Auto-Cloud had been discussed
20:54:49 <truebrain> I explained a bit about that not a few months ago: it has nothing to do with licenses
20:55:07 <truebrain> Like, it doesn't even require the plugin 😛
20:55:15 <truebrain> but Discord search is not the best thing out there 😄
20:56:37 <truebrain> tldr: enabling cloud-saves is easy; properly configuring it less so. And all it requires is someone writing out what "properly" means (and getting an agreement on that 😛 )
20:56:47 <andythenorth> Rubidium: well most of the authors don't have a code generator....
20:56:58 <andythenorth> so manually writing NML is a constraint for them
21:00:15 <talltyler> It seems suitable to me to sync savegames and scenarios (only in `OpenTTD/scenario`, nothing in `content_download/*`). The rest you can grab off BaNaNaS, no?
21:00:32 <truebrain> Write it out, ask what others think, and go-go-go 😛
21:00:49 <truebrain> few years ago whe that was attempted, there were so ..... discussions 😛 And ofc, then nobody followed up 🙂
21:01:12 <talltyler> Oh, config files too.
21:01:12 <truebrain> One of those was: should you could-sync the `newgrf` folder (so not the one in `content_download` yes/no
21:01:42 <talltyler> No, because if you put a bunch of extrazoom stuff in there you'll run out of storage space 😉
21:01:58 <_glx_> hmm config file without `content_download` will be endless trouble
21:02:38 <_glx_> as it will probably reference stuff from this folder, which will be then removed from config if not found IIRC
21:02:39 <sosmakaroni> peter1138: I’ve uploaded it to GitHub.
21:04:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:05:47 <peter1138> Damn, it feels weird when authors make vehicle sets that only get going in the 2000s...
21:06:34 <sosmakaroni> It's beta 😄 I have old Ikaruses voxel and more 😄
21:09:52 <peter1138> Well, my bad. Looks like I only added the filter call for trains... :o
21:10:43 <peter1138> talltyler, beta4? :p
21:11:45 <talltyler> Or RC1, if train filters work
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21:12:19 <talltyler> I have some PRs that I’d like to get merged before the big release
21:14:49 <talltyler> Not opposed to a beta4 though if there’s enough to test
21:15:41 <peter1138> Nah, it was a joke. Releasing a beta is meant to find bugs, after all.
21:19:03 <sosmakaroni> Thank you very much for your work! 😉
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21:32:18 <peter1138> Thanks for reporting the issue.
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22:01:18 <michi_cc> Xitter post is still missing, right?
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continue to next day ⏵
