IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-07-01
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04:45:37 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
07:12:59 <peter1138[d]> Well. OpenTTD Sans and OpenGFX 2's ellipsis is good.
07:13:16 <peter1138[d]> The original sprite one... not so much.
07:16:22 <peter1138[d]> Not sure anything much can be done about the monospace one.
07:16:28 <peter1138[d]> The glyph is 7 pixels wide.
07:17:13 <peter1138[d]> 2,1,2,1,2 would be best but is 8px.
07:18:34 <peter1138[d]> We have `_-_-_-_` which is 7px but doesn't match a period, nor does it align nicely with multiple. Not that that's a huge worvry.
07:21:02 <peter1138[d]> That is better, although the original period probably wants more space. But that's original, so.
07:45:36 <peter1138[d]> Not with square pixels sunnyjim.
07:46:12 <peter1138[d]> MODE 2 is 160x256. Shall we allow 0.25x interface scaling?
08:03:03 <peter1138[d]> A few issues at 0.5x.
08:07:57 <peter1138[d]> There, definitely needed fixing 😉
08:11:29 <peter1138[d]> There. Perfect 320x240 gaming.
08:14:25 <peter1138[d]> blitter = 4bpp-optimised?
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08:28:16 <Rubidium> peter1138[d]: 4bpp with AVX-512 optimisations, right? :D
08:31:21 <peter1138[d]> Paint the entire screen in a couple of parallel CPU operations.
08:41:27 <Flygon> I'm looking forward to the Mega CD blitter port :P
08:41:54 <peter1138[d]> Fuck. Right. Off.
08:42:08 <peter1138[d]> Anti-patterns, there's no "No" button.
08:43:01 <Flygon> Google jacked up their Google Admin rates for people that use it for email recently. Justifying it with "Because Gemini exists now".
08:43:01 <peter1138[d]> I've already "Uninstalled" this once, whatever that means for an web-based application, but it came back, of course.
08:43:08 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for Q2 of 2025 (by OpenTTD Survey)
08:43:13 <Flygon> And that's gonna suck to migrate away from eventually if I must.
08:43:28 <peter1138[d]> Migrate already.
08:44:23 <peter1138[d]> Doing it before you have to is probably easier to manage.
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09:21:04 <pickpacket> I wanna leave google but the thing preventing me at this stage is gmail
09:21:29 <pickpacket> Would like to self-host but I can't on my home server and I don't want to get a VM in the cloud for it
09:22:50 <peter1138[d]> What prevents using your home server?
09:24:25 <pickpacket> reverse pointer doesn't show the same IP. I'd be blocked by all the major providers
09:30:40 <peter1138[d]> You can use external SMTP services, used to be that all ISPs offered that as normal, but perhaps not any more.
09:31:32 <peter1138[d]> Some ISPs (mine) do offer rDNS customisation.
09:33:44 <locosage> I self-host my email but it's a bit of a pita to maintain and end up being down half of the time 😅
09:43:43 <Rubidium> receiving email isn't that hard, it's getting your mails accepted by the big providers. Have fun with that when there are some spammers in the IP block of your ISP...
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10:09:55 <locosage> luckily I don't need to care much about sending
10:10:29 <locosage> well, mostly because I use gmail in the rare case I need to send something...
10:14:16 <peter1138[d]> Or you can switch to a non-free email provider, with the advantage that you have de-Googled. (Mythic Beasts spring to mind.)
10:16:39 <pickpacket> I have a Swedish domain registrar but use cloudflare for DNS because they're free and have an api -- which I need since I have a dynamic IP. If I were to pay for DNS at my registrar I could also get email addresses for my domain. For an extra cost, of course. And no API
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10:38:36 <reldred> I keep my email, web services on a VPS that I pay for. SSDNodes is dirt cheap, wait for a major US holiday, buy three years in advance.
10:39:01 <reldred> Containerise your shit and get the best bang for buck out of your server as well.
10:39:34 <reldred> Nextcloud will move onto my own servers at home and the VPS will get downscaled a bit once the disk usage comes down.
10:40:14 <reldred> I only use gmail for spam magnet shit.
10:40:34 <reldred> If I lost access overnight it would only be a mild pain in my ass.
10:41:00 <reldred> Basically just lose access to the slop half of the internet, nothing actually important.
10:54:56 <pickpacket> I have two Raspberry Pi at home for servers. A 2B runs my internet services and a 1B+ as a fileserver
10:55:40 <pickpacket> Not really keen on getting a VPS after working in a data centre and knowing just how much energy and material go into that
11:02:59 <jfkuayue> Who will advertise their device as “USB 3.0” (not 3.2) today?
11:04:14 <pickpacket> jfkuayue: there's a difference? I hadn't heard of 3.2
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11:07:02 <jfkuayue> “USB SD/TF reader 3.0 high speed”, well, and ranking the no1 bestseller, with many cheaper USB 3.2 SD/TF readers available
11:07:13 <reldred> pickpacket: The alternative is someone wasting that electricity on some crypto scam or other BS. I dunno, I think those companies are always gonna exist.
11:07:48 <reldred> As for my home servers, HA Proxmox cluster made out of old 1litre desktop pc’s is my poison 🙂
11:07:50 <pickpacket> reldred: they are, and I don't judge anyone using them. They offer a lot that I can't get at home without some serious effort and sometimes money.
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11:09:15 <reldred> I have a fixed IP on the vps, nightly snapshots, and some safety in knowing if I have to do something drastic like move to the opposite side of the country I don’t lose critical services.
11:09:24 <reldred> Which is what I’ve just done on the weekend
11:09:35 <reldred> My servers won’t be here for a couple months yet
11:09:49 <reldred> But I need my email and web services uninterrupted
11:10:19 <reldred> They are 2500km away at the moment
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11:26:19 <peter1138[d]> Running a small VPS is more energy efficient than hosting at home 🙂
11:26:30 <peter1138[d]> (The VPS host is going to be there anyway...)
11:58:12 <peter1138[d]> I probably haven't configured VS Codium properly, but at least it doesn't forcing bits of Copilot at me. Fuck off with that.
12:03:35 <pickpacket> peter1138[d]: is that an open source version of vs code?
12:05:37 <peter1138[d]> I guess the name is a play on "Chrome" vs "Chromium"... yes. Technically VS Code is open source, but the build from Microsoft includes extras that are not part of the open source bit.
12:05:51 <peter1138[d]> Extras which I no longer want.
12:07:24 <peter1138[d]> Someone mentioned it a while and the response then was "why bother, it's still Microsoft's code", but with the Copilot shit being forced on me, I'm.... yeah.
12:09:36 <peter1138[d]> a while ago, that is.
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12:35:24 <pickpacket> hate all the AI tooling
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12:57:36 <locosage> meanwhile I'm trying to find ai plugin for my sublime xD
12:57:49 <locosage> coz I can't be bothered to learn a new editor
13:06:53 <peter1138[d]> Your brain rot has already started.
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13:11:48 <drdronken> peter1138[d]: Extras like?
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13:12:04 <drdronken> I didn't feel like VS code was bloated with garbage or anything
13:12:09 <talltyler> My only hope is that AI companies collapse when the market realize every AI query loses money and the entire business is unsustainable
13:12:25 <talltyler> And that it happens soon
13:14:07 <drdronken> I mean, trying to shovel it into existing software is a horrible idea, especially if you need a nuclear reactor specifically to power them answering questions about bananas by 20iq users who just use it to automate their school assignments lmfao
13:14:23 <peter1138[d]> talltyler: it might not, because their target market is corporations who will save money by employing less people.
13:15:42 <belajalilija> i use ai to read text to me because i hate the voice less than google translate
13:15:42 <talltyler> Yes, by making shitty products that we’re locked into. We have reached the point of “the product is free because we’re the product” and wonder why every tool gets worse and we spent more time using it 😦
13:16:21 <talltyler> Sorry for the doomerism, time to think about OpenTTD, our free game where we can follow our values 🙂
13:17:42 <belajalilija> talltyler: doomerism in regards to modern tech is often just reality
13:18:07 <peter1138[d]> And no, the shit is not installed as extensions.
13:18:09 <belajalilija> doomerism is only bad when it impacts your outlook on life and other people
13:18:24 <talltyler> I’ve been reading too much Ed Zitron about AI 🙂
13:21:14 <drdronken> peter1138[d]: Oh god
13:22:07 <drdronken> talltyler: Environmental pollution 🗣️ 🔥 🔈
13:25:34 <talltyler> Hmm, in my Real Job I have a simulation task which is single-threaded and takes about an hour. It can’t be sped up because, single-threaded. I neglected to think about memory, and now I’m at 92% memory usage and only 12% CPU. 🤦
13:26:02 <peter1138[d]> Think how much memory you could've used if it was multi-threaded!
13:26:21 <talltyler> Edited to include the important detail that I’m trying to run three at once (for anyone on IRC who can’t see edits)
13:27:50 <talltyler> I spent yesterday mostly just sitting around waiting for these to complete, looks like maybe another repeat of that today 🫤
13:33:52 <talltyler> Pretty much. Killed two of the tasks, and now one is running with 15% CPU and 62% memory
13:34:03 <talltyler> Maybe more RAM would be a good investment.
13:34:16 <peter1138[d]> My *porch* is very very hot.
13:34:31 <peter1138[d]> It's the only place I could the portable AC to vent into without having to leave doors open.
13:34:46 <peter1138[d]> (It has a window open, but heat builds up anyway)
13:35:05 <talltyler> Need an AC for your heat dump room 🙂
13:35:58 <talltyler> I don’t know if your AC unit draws fresh air from the same place it exhausts, but AC units become less efficient the hotter the intake air
13:37:04 <talltyler> I have a window unit that’s in direct sunlight (only option, the room only has two windows and they’re on the same wall) and it’s not that effective by midday
13:37:10 <peter1138[d]> That's why it's vented into the porch.
13:37:31 <peter1138[d]> The intake does not take fresh air, it's a crappy inefficient portable AC. But it's doing something.
13:38:01 <peter1138[d]> And my excuse is that it's for the dogs not me. They are huffing and puffing and too hot and don't know how to cool.
13:38:31 <_glx_> Small inflatable pool for the dogs
13:38:38 <peter1138[d]> In the UK our windows aren't designed for window units, and those aren't sold here anyway.
13:38:53 <peter1138[d]> I tried, they don't know what it is.
13:38:55 <_glx_> Yeah we have real windows
13:39:01 <talltyler> Cold water is very helpful for humans, probably good for dogs too
13:39:23 <peter1138[d]> They have cool water for drinking, but if they don't feel thirsty they won't.
13:39:35 <peter1138[d]> Unlike food, where they'll eat all of it and then more.
13:39:37 <talltyler> I have two glasses of water on rotation, one on my desk and another in the fridge
13:51:57 <talltyler> Is this emergent gameplay?
13:52:05 <peter1138[d]> I'm rotating between chilled water and ... tea.
13:52:18 <talltyler> First time I've seen airplanes run out of fuel in OpenTTD 🙂
13:52:37 <peter1138[d]> Is that part of the new company rating system? 🙂
14:17:25 <belajalilija> would it be possible to have an option so that 1hp vehicles can not dictate on which tracks a train can run?
14:18:22 <talltyler> 1hp so a non-loco can lead a train?
14:18:27 <belajalilija> the rationale is that both GETS and my set use 1hp vehicles as fake DVTs however this can lead to electric trains choosing to go on non electrified track
14:19:39 <talltyler> The correct solution is to allow unpowered vehicles to lead a train without having 1hp 🙂
14:20:13 <belajalilija> is that possible?
14:22:30 <talltyler> It's part of my push-pull proposal, to add a flag for "has cab"
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14:22:47 <talltyler> So, not possible now but with some development, could be done 🙂
14:23:27 <belajalilija> it would be very nice, but isnt real push pull a long time away?
14:24:14 <talltyler> There's some tech debt, yeah, although unpowered leading vehicles don't necessarily depend on the rest of push-pull
14:25:39 <belajalilija> well currently i have it set up so that for every DVT i have theres a version with 1hp that ive put in their own variant group with the intention of disabling later
14:26:05 <belajalilija> are you suggesting that real push-pull will likely be possible within the next 3 years or so
14:26:12 <belajalilija> if that's the case i'm happy to wait
14:26:21 <talltyler> I'd like to do it within 3 years, but can't make any promises 🙂
14:26:31 <talltyler> Certainly not in 15.0 😄
14:26:45 <peter1138[d]> It's more likely than special-casing engines with 1hp. Which is not happening.
14:27:19 <peter1138[d]> I'd recommend "not doing that", but I'm not allowed opinions.
14:27:23 <belajalilija> eh, i just thought it seemed like a reasonable interim solution that, sounds to me at least, easier to do
14:27:44 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: nah i get were you're coming from
14:27:50 <talltyler> It is a workaround for now, but yeah, workarounds are very unlikely to get actual support 🙂
14:28:05 <belajalilija> i'll just wait for real DVTs and stick with the janky 1hp stuff for now
14:29:34 <belajalilija> i dont imagine im even releasing my grf this year, i work very slowly, 3-5 years is no time
14:30:16 <belajalilija> talltyler: when did development of danish trains even start?
14:30:51 <belajalilija> i know it was over 4 years ago, not sure if it is quite 5 yet
14:31:06 <talltyler> Summer 2020, it was during COVID shortly after I lost my job and had nothing else to do
14:31:23 <belajalilija> yeah, so the idea is 5 years old already
14:32:11 <talltyler> I should tackle my 15.0 bugs before I start anything new 🤔
14:32:49 <talltyler> Push-pull is the main quest, not even a sidequest 🙂
14:33:17 <belajalilija> ive been coding a lot of stuff recently so ill be able to just mindlessly draw
14:33:33 <peter1138[d]> Funny how something like push-pull, which is absolutely irrelevant to playing the game, is so important 🙂
14:33:33 <talltyler> Speaking of side quests, this is still ready for review 😉
14:33:35 <belajalilija> been doing all the danish push-pull stuff
14:33:58 <talltyler> Depends on how you define playing the game 😉
14:34:10 <peter1138[d]> Allowing consists with non-leading engines would be where I'd start.
14:34:20 <talltyler> Agreed, it does seem like the natural place to start
14:34:57 <_jgr_> You could argue that "playing the game" has been functionally done for decades now
14:35:15 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: i think openttd holds a strong niche in that you can have a big world with relatively weak hardware and can make things very customised, i personally find decorating in modern games like CS to be overwhelming so i can imagine some may feel the same about TF2 and so prefer opentttd
14:35:25 <peter1138[d]> IIRC, that's relatively simple, at least for plain non-NewGRF sets.
14:35:38 <talltyler> Heh, I even wrote it down as Step 1 in my proposed implementation 😄
14:35:58 <peter1138[d]> I guess modern NewGRF authors no longer bother with livery overrides, so there's that.
14:35:58 <belajalilija> would this push pull idea work with vehicles of mixed lengths?
14:36:22 <belajalilija> most of my carriages are 10/8 or 11/8 but the locos often range from 8/8 to 10/8
14:36:35 <peter1138[d]> OpenTTD only suports up to 8/8.
14:37:00 <peter1138[d]> "Push-pull" effectively "just" means make the consist run backwards.
14:37:16 <peter1138[d]> Not sure why length of individual parts would be relevant.
14:37:22 <talltyler> If we let the train move backwards, it would support all vehicles including articulated vehicles
14:38:25 <talltyler> Okay, stop distracting me, I have bugs to fix before I get too excited about side quests 😛
14:38:27 <belajalilija> i know already that it is possible to do mixed length stuff but i heard it requires making the leading vehicle longer (like the carriages) and is complex to code
14:39:25 <peter1138[d]> Don't conflate "having to do stupidly complex stuff in NML because a feature doesn't exist" with "the feature has to do that stupid complex stuff too"
14:40:03 <talltyler> Ideally the feature should be as simple as possible 🙂
14:40:44 <talltyler> "swap sprites and use invisible lengths to make the train look backwards" versus "train goes backwards" 😄
14:40:53 <peter1138[d]> It'll be simple, but for everyone who fucked around making stupidly complex stuff in the meantime who will likely never bother to update it because that's their whole workflow...
14:41:15 <talltyler> See cargo subtype liveries 😉
14:42:22 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: i was referring to the SBB set which has been out of development for years and which i wish to eventually replace in full with my own set
14:43:12 <belajalilija> my set has nothing like that
14:43:25 <peter1138[d]> And I'm talking in general.
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15:00:12 <audigex> talltyler: Point us at the patreon
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15:01:26 <talltyler> Honestly, ~~bully~~ ask nicely someone more talented than me to resolve the tech debt of converting trains from linked lists to Consist objects that can be reversed more easily. The rest is much easier. 🙂
15:02:00 <audigex> Show me who I need to blackmail and I'll start digging up dirt
15:02:48 <peter1138[d]> > Debug(misc, 0, "Looking for {}", value);
15:02:51 <peter1138[d]> For some reason this code didn't work.
15:02:58 <peter1138[d]> In my C# stuff for $work.
15:06:05 <Rubidium> I guess I forgot to update the C#-bindings :D
15:18:45 <jfkuayue> Nothing has been affected after switching into Linuxmint (from win11) for a month
15:19:43 <jfkuayue> Except I am more focused, and the laptop does not have random annoying heats when clapped
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15:27:02 <yiffgirl> i had a windows laptop once that would instantly overheat when placed on its back.
15:27:50 <andythenorth> hmm DVT issue probably affects Horse 😛
15:27:56 <andythenorth> never considered that
15:27:58 <yiffgirl> trains are linked lists?!
15:28:48 <belajalilija> yes DVT issues impacting horse are very important top priority we should improve DVTs, for horse, of course
15:29:16 <emperorjake> peter1138[d]: Except every set that uses MU wagons 😉
15:29:27 <andythenorth> Horse DVT has more horses
15:29:39 <andythenorth> "probably fine" on ELRL
15:30:13 <emperorjake> Actual push-pull would make Horse 100x better
15:30:22 <andythenorth> I like my trains to flip
15:30:42 <emperorjake> Unpopular opinion 🙂
15:30:57 <talltyler> I recently discovered that using electric locomotives with autocoaches is a bad idea 🙂
15:31:02 <jfkuayue> yiffgirl: I don't know why, maybe
15:31:23 <peter1138[d]> > `GetWagonOverrideSpriteSet(v->engine_type, v->cargo_type, v->GetGroundVehicleCache()->first_engine)`
15:31:49 <peter1138[d]> If the lead engine is changed, the wagons update. If the lead engine isn't an engine... Hmm.
15:32:31 <peter1138[d]> But that isn't my side-quest 🙂
15:33:44 <yiffgirl> still kind of waking up but I'm going to look at what changing trains to not be linked lists involves later. surely it can't be that bad <- obvious lie
15:33:59 <peter1138[d]> Trains are not linked lists.
15:34:24 <peter1138[d]> They have pointers to the previous and next items in the chain.
15:34:41 <peter1138[d]> But the actual storage of their parts is managed by the pool.
15:35:10 <peter1138[d]> So basically, do not attempt to do that.
15:35:45 <talltyler> _doesn't know what a linked list is_ 🙂
15:37:33 <peter1138[d]> It's where an object contains a pointer to the next object. Each item links to the next. To traverse it you have to follow each link in the chain.
15:37:52 <peter1138[d]> Now, that sounds very much like how vehicles are linked.
15:38:37 <peter1138[d]> But there is the distinction of ownership of the next item.
15:41:45 <audigex> peter1138[d]: Isn't that just a doubly-linked list?
15:43:46 <peter1138[d]> Yes but no, again, ownership.
15:44:26 <talltyler> The pool owns them, instead of... nobody?
15:44:51 <peter1138[d]> In OpenTTD, the pool owns each item, instead of the previous item in the list.
15:50:00 <mnhebi> peter1138[d]: you guys got C# code these days?
15:50:20 <peter1138[d]> These days? It's been... around for a while?
15:50:36 <mnhebi> sorry I don't browse your code repository that much .d
15:51:10 <peter1138[d]> I'd be surprised if you browsed my $work code repository. Very surprised.
15:51:18 <mnhebi> I just recall at one point the line was "c++, nothing else" :d
15:52:14 <mnhebi> here I thought openttd-development was openttd-development. :(
15:52:33 <talltyler> Same goes for my $work, I'm under NDA and accidentally leaking things to people here would have very real repercussions 😛
15:53:47 <talltyler> openttd-development often seems to be Lunch Accountability Chat, which reminds me, I should eat lunch. I've got spaghetti and (surprisingly good) vegetarian meatballs
15:58:21 <_zephyris> mmm, vegetable balls
15:59:15 <talltyler> peter1138[d]: Can a pool own our theoretical Consist objects?
15:59:58 <peter1138[d]> mnhebi: Are you, uh, confused that anyone might talk about something that isn't directly related to development of OpenTTD itself?
16:01:34 <peter1138[d]> talltyler: Yes. The consist stuff I did so far doesn't do that, it just moved most of the stuff that only applies to the front vehicle out of Vehicle and into a Consist struct, which is then.,. ta-da, a member of Vehicle again. michi_cc's Consist work does actually do a pool, IIRC.
16:07:51 <peter1138[d]> You then iterate that pool whenever you only want to deal with whole trains.
16:07:55 <peter1138[d]> (And other vehicles.)
16:09:06 <peter1138[d]> Whole articulated road vehicles, etc.
16:11:33 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, how do I know what line-spacing to us...
16:15:44 <talltyler> Peter, any idea what I'm doing wrong with picker window state? (trying to make the house picker remember the player's 'protect house from upgrades' choice even when the window is closed)
16:15:44 <talltyler> It all compiles and runs, but doesn't store the state. 🙂
16:17:51 <peter1138[d]> > -if (hasflag) this->house_protected = true;
16:17:51 <peter1138[d]> > +HousePickerCallbacks::instance.SetHousePickerProtected(hasflag);
16:17:55 <peter1138[d]> That is not equivalent.
16:18:00 <_glx_> line 1771 changes the behaviour
16:18:23 <_glx_> you now always set false if not flag
16:18:51 <_glx_> while it used to set true without touching anything else is flag
16:21:00 <talltyler> Ah, well-spotted! Thank you both 😄
16:23:23 <talltyler> `bool GetHousePickerProtected() const { return house_protected; }`, does it need the `const`? Other setters/getters are `const override`
16:24:11 <_glx_> postfix const means the function doesn't change the field, and can be called on a const object
16:25:01 <talltyler> So, fine but not necessary here?
16:25:08 <_glx_> override is because other accessors are also defined in PickerCallbacks (parent class)
16:25:53 <_glx_> (didn't check the code, but that's my guess from the diff)
16:26:12 <talltyler> Right, I know `override`, wasn't sure if the `const` was because of the inhertance/overriding behavior 🙂
16:27:43 <peter1138[d]> Putting it into the picker callback state isn't exactly necessary though, it could just be in the main window state.
16:28:06 <peter1138[d]> It's fine as far as convention goes, but might be overcomplicating it.
16:28:13 <talltyler> It was previously in the window state, no?
16:28:21 <_glx_> hehe `const` for a setter looks weird, but it's fine because it's a static member I guess
16:28:24 <talltyler> (which "main window" do you mean, I suppose)
16:28:34 <peter1138[d]> `BuildHouseWindow`
16:28:56 <talltyler> That's where it was, and it was lost whenever the window was closed.
16:29:02 <peter1138[d]> Changing that to `static inline bool house_protected = false;` would have the same effect.
16:29:57 <talltyler> I do not understand memory 🙂
16:30:12 <talltyler> Would you prefer that? Less code but doesn't follow other picker state.
16:31:01 <_glx_> it's only for this window, so keeping it inside seems the right thing
16:31:38 <peter1138[d]> Well. For consistency moving it is also fine, I think.
16:32:22 <peter1138[d]> But actually *PickerCallbacks are a bit weird because I'm a terrible designer 😄
16:33:23 <peter1138[d]> Maybe I should tidy all that up. Or not.
16:34:09 <peter1138[d]> (Not just for the house picker, btw.)
16:34:32 <talltyler> If there's no consensus, I like having it with `sel_view` and friends 🤷
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17:07:44 <peter1138[d]> Someone had to...
17:17:54 <belajalilija> Bit early for betas isn’t it?
17:18:14 <belajalilija> Or are updates no longer annually on April fools?
17:29:07 <yiffgirl> just exceptionally delayed this year i think
17:29:17 <kale91> alright so I've spent a lot of time with the house placer recently and it's pretty gamechanging in terms of a lot of things. I think it's biggest problem currently is tedium on a larger scale. Wondering if it's possible for some sort of multi-select tool to create some sort of randomizer for specific groups of buildings?
17:29:45 <kale91> Just trying to figure out what the limitations are behind the scenes so I could try and point things in a certain direction
17:30:49 <yiffgirl> not just buildings, this would be a godsend for people like me who like the idea of eyecandy but are too lazy to actually manually place individual objects
17:31:58 <kale91> Having the ability to manually place buildings is great, but it really starts getting tiring in lower density areas or even bigger urban areas as you're often just manually selecting smaller groups of specific buildings as randomly as possible
17:32:46 <kale91> Being able to select a grouping of them and then have the game randomly select something from those groups would be really nice
17:34:10 <belajalilija> yiffgirl: Ahh thought it was early
17:34:50 <talltyler> How much would it help to allow overbuilding? That's much easier to implement than multi-select. 🙂
17:35:18 <kale91> talltyler: not familiar with the terminology of overbuilding
17:35:19 <talltyler> Place a house on top of an existing house to replace it
17:35:35 <kale91> also thought of requesting that
17:35:55 <talltyler> I've been using the house placer a lot in my current game and wish for this, but not enough to figure out all the use cases where it should not be allowed 🙂
17:36:07 <belajalilija> While we’re here
17:36:07 <belajalilija> Some grfs have their own building preservation rules
17:36:07 <belajalilija> Could those be overridden?
17:36:34 <talltyler> They could be, but why?
17:36:42 <belajalilija> I mentioned it recently in regards to the Central European set
17:36:43 <kale91> talltyler: I think it could be a simple on and off really
17:36:55 <belajalilija> talltyler: Buildings still get removed by the town
17:36:57 <talltyler> Why would you place a house that wants to be protected, but you want the town to someday replace it?
17:37:18 <talltyler> If you tell a house it's protected and the town removes it, that's a bug 🙂
17:37:30 <kale91> the town set buildings don't hold as much weight so if overbuilding was possible and you just misclicked its an easy fix
17:38:04 <belajalilija> talltyler: Then yes it’s a bug
17:38:09 <kale91> but the added step of placing the wrong building, deleting it and then reselected would be nice to cut out of the equation
17:38:51 <talltyler> Please open an issue with detailed steps to reproduce, maybe with a minimal savegame (64x64, only necessary GRFs) 🙂
17:39:27 <talltyler> (and only GRFs on Bananas)
17:39:52 <_jgr_> The cause is already known, it was discussed on the channel here earlier
17:40:16 <kale91> kale91: this would be the true gamechanger though (just dont want it to get buried)
17:41:18 <talltyler> Hmm, it could be sort of like the Saved selection of the picker window, actually sounds reasonably straightforward to implement
17:41:48 <talltyler> Although there's no spare modifier key 😉
17:42:10 <_jgr_> House protection is ignored for GRFs which provide their own CBID_HOUSE_DENY_DESTRUCTION
17:44:11 <kale91> talltyler: cool. In my head I envision a highlighting tool in the house placer menu
17:44:42 <kale91> could just be activated by ctrl clicking on tiles in the menu
17:44:47 <kale91> not sure if thats possible
17:44:50 <talltyler> _jgr_: Thanks, I see it now in the code. Why did I do this, I wonder... 🤔
17:45:15 <talltyler> kale91: Ctrl+Click toggles if it appears in Saved
17:45:31 <talltyler> Multi-select would ideally be the same, but we don't have a spare modifier key 🙂
17:45:43 <talltyler> (ideally = how I thought of it, anyway) 😛
17:45:45 <kale91> ah, see the saved menu I've never used before
17:46:17 <kale91> my favorites list is usually the picker tool 😛
17:46:27 <kale91> but I could see how that would be useful
17:46:40 <talltyler> We don't have that in vanilla yet, although I've mentioned to JGR that I'd love to see it upstreamed someday 🙂
17:47:11 <peter1138[d]> Could we extend the favourites system to have groups of favourites, and then have for houses/objects have the ability to auto-select a random favourite from a group?
17:47:29 <kale91> peter1138[d]: yes that would work
17:47:30 <peter1138[d]> Sort of combining both features.
17:47:32 <talltyler> Like the NewGRF preset list? I like it.
17:47:39 <peter1138[d]> No idea how the UI would look.
17:47:40 <talltyler> (meaning, named favourite groups)
17:48:17 <talltyler> Hmm, replace the `Saved` button with a dropdown populated with the names of your favourite groups?
17:48:24 <peter1138[d]> Something like that.
17:48:59 <talltyler> belajalilija: No need to open an issue, I see the problem 😄
17:49:12 <peter1138[d]> Did I have a patch for that issue? I remember it...
17:49:28 <talltyler> Wonder I can write one before you find it 😛
17:49:51 <peter1138[d]> I may have only asked about the expected behaviour.
17:50:00 <belajalilija> talltyler: Tbh i woulda forgotten to anyway
17:51:55 <belajalilija> The only way i remember to do stuff is if i write it down, i check my notes anywhere from daily to monthly
17:55:26 <peter1138[d]> That's why you do it there and then. Just like me fixing it 😉
17:58:42 <belajalilija> Yeah but I’m on my phone xd
18:03:19 <michi_cc> And it would probably break heaps of old saves that rely on stuff like the invisible leading engine etc.
18:04:10 <peter1138[d]> I assumed it was more just about making a wagon have 1hp power so that it could be a lead engine.
18:04:26 <peter1138[d]> (i.e. not a bug to be fixed)
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18:04:49 <talltyler> Yeah, the issue is that the train does have power on RAIL...but only 1hp of it, so it goes really, really slow 😄
18:04:49 <michi_cc> I was going for the `this can lead to electric trains choosing to go on non electrified track`
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18:05:05 <michi_cc> And that does sound like a bug to me.
18:05:46 <peter1138[d]> If the lead engine is powered on RAIL, then it will of course be able to go on RAIL, even if only 1hp. I don't see a bug there.
18:05:56 <michi_cc> Okay, so it would need a ELRL DVT and a RAIL DVT to compensate. So I guess I should look at the actual problem first 🙂
18:06:17 <talltyler> Right, it's not a bug, just an unfortunate drawback to the workaround of "only powered engines can lead trains"
18:06:28 <peter1138[d]> And as that's a hack for push-pull not existing... yeah.
18:07:06 <belajalilija> I’m happy waiting if push pull is happening
18:07:15 <belajalilija> I’d rather resourced be dedicated to that
18:07:21 <belajalilija> Rather than a temporary fix
18:07:43 <talltyler> Hey, I opened PRs for my 15.0 bugs, that's one less yak to shave 🙂
18:08:07 <talltyler> Still working on my station ratings project, should finish that first though
18:08:16 <peter1138[d]> Well, I'm confused. If it's because the train ends with with 1hp because its on RAIL not ELRL, surely you just need to make sure the power type of the fake engine matche the power type of the real engine?
18:08:30 <talltyler> That one is truly a side quest, but I hate having multiple projects going at once 😅
18:09:13 <talltyler> Yes, you should. Feel free to make a Patreon, audigex already volunteered to bankroll the project 😛
18:09:27 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: Seems a bit silly when dealing with DVTs
18:10:25 <peter1138[d]> So you're happy to give it fake power, but not happy to set the rail type correctly?
18:11:19 <talltyler> What happens if you attach a RAIL DVT to an electric engine?
18:11:52 <talltyler> Wagon attach callback seems like the wrong approach here 🙂
18:12:15 <peter1138[d]> I honestly fail to see what is so important about having a DVT at the front of a train compared to just having a normal engine.
18:12:15 <talltyler> Well yeah, the other one is WIP 😛
18:12:58 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: It’s more clutter
18:13:10 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: It looks cool
18:13:50 <belajalilija> belajalilija: Ironic coming from me i know
18:14:22 <talltyler> Everything push-pull is just about the roleplay, just looking cool 🙂
18:14:57 <talltyler> It doesn’t make money, but OpenTTD is about setting your own goals, and looking cool is one that a lot of players choose 😄
18:15:58 <squirejames> talltyler: Sounds like a typical council really. Accidental realism
18:23:19 <peter1138[d]> talltyler: Oh I get wanting push-pull. But I won't go further.
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18:36:53 <kale91> The DVT would only be at the front of the train 50% of the time if used correctly 😛
18:50:10 <audigex> peter1138[d]: Logically it's not a locomotive, and in JGRPP it messes up the purchase list if it's mixed in with locomotives not rolling stock
18:50:10 <audigex> But I think it's something we'd live with if we had to just give them 1hp or something in exchange for push pull
18:50:54 <peter1138[d]> By the spec, it's a locomotive because it's been given 1hp. It's not "not a locomotive" just because you wish it isn't 🙂
18:51:43 <audigex> That's what I mean though, logically a DVT wouldn't be a locomotive and wouldn't have 1hp
18:51:43 <audigex> But if the functionality was easier to implement by giving it 1hp and making it officially a locomotive, then I think players/grf devs would accept that as a reasonable compromise to make it easier to add push pull
18:52:33 <audigex> Obviously if it could be done without that then that would be preferred
18:52:33 <audigex> Ideally it would just be a DRIVING_CAR special flag we could set on any vehicle, and if there's a locomotive or driving car at both ends of the consist then the consist can reverse, but if the locomotive approach is easier then I'd take it
18:53:19 <peter1138[d]> Just to be clear, if/when push-pull is implemented by the game, it will not be needing any hacks like 1hp engines.
18:53:28 <talltyler> The locomotive is approach is what’s currently used, the flag is what I plan to implement Someday ™
18:54:40 <audigex> It would also be cool if there was an equivalent non-driving flag for locomotives, eg for B units, slave units etc
18:55:44 <talltyler> Don’t make me post the Haysi Railroad B-unit switcher 😛
18:55:49 <brickblock19280> belajalilija: yes but I don't think it changes anything you can set the power to 0 with callbacks
18:55:55 <peter1138[d]> Yeah, also, there's not much point in requesting this information here, because by the time someone gets around to looking at the implementation, this chat will be long gone.
18:56:47 <talltyler> I have seen many push-pull chats come and go, and each time the conclusion is “I already wrote this in my proposed implementation discussion” 😛
18:57:54 <talltyler> Specifically no cab is a new one, but that seems like a “doctor my knee hurts when I ~~hit it with a hammer~~ put a B unit on the front of my train” problem 🙂
19:29:03 <andythenorth> did I miss the latest push-pull spec?
19:31:02 <andythenorth> yeah no, definitely time for lunch
19:31:27 <yiffgirl> am i correct in thinking that the pseudo-linked-list thing could be replaced with a vector of indices into the pool at the consist level?
19:34:24 <Rubidium> it could be, though I haven't thought about any performance repercussions (positive or negative)
19:34:36 <peter1138[d]> Not impossible but often an individual vehicle does need to know which is the previous or next vehicle, so...
19:35:57 <andythenorth> shall I post a picture of my lunch, or is that just a thing from when Twitter existed?
19:37:07 <andythenorth> I tried to register about 5 times in different browsers, but failed every time
19:37:12 <andythenorth> possibly some kind of banlist
19:37:50 <andythenorth> anyway, DVTs have to have power, because that's how OpenTTD engines lead a train
19:37:57 <andythenorth> maybe they need ELRL and RAIL variants
19:43:35 <yiffgirl> just tried to grep my history on a different computer
19:46:59 <squirejames> It feels almost "Greek Symposium" this discussion, in a good way. "What defines a locomotive?" well, if it has Hp its a loco, but, then what if its a driving carriage with no engine (like a DVT or the front cars of an APT) or, conversely, a B-Unit where it has power, but no control.
19:47:11 <squirejames> and we all just go "pffftt, no idea"
19:48:46 <squirejames> Does that make Andy, Diogenes? *ponders*
19:48:46 <squirejames> Anyway I know little of the code, but, is it possible to simply allow trains with no locomotive, or no leading locomotive, a la Locomotion? or does that mean re-writing the way trains are handled entirely from scratch?
19:51:23 <andythenorth> trains need a locomotive
19:51:31 <andythenorth> a locomotive has to have power
19:53:08 <squirejames> Is that very low level code that cannot be altered? (to simply "the leading vehicle is the first vehicle in the consist")
19:53:28 <brickblock19280> that would break many grfs I am pretty sure
19:54:10 <andythenorth> it's just definitional
19:54:13 <brickblock19280> the parent/related scope for trains has always been the first unit
19:54:40 <andythenorth> dunno, give a DVT more power, problem solved
19:59:25 <belajalilija> I could make DVTs unpowered and have an invisible leading engine, one for each track type relevant to me
19:59:54 <belajalilija> But still have the DVTs graphically flipped
20:01:17 <andythenorth> did you have trains choosing the wrong route?
20:01:42 <belajalilija> andythenorth: I’ve seen that issue before with GETS and i want to avoid it with my set
20:01:51 <andythenorth> just electrify everything
20:02:12 <andythenorth> or read the power of the engine using badges
20:02:26 <andythenorth> and turn off the power of the actual engine....using badges
20:02:37 <andythenorth> and set the power of the engine on the DVT
20:02:40 <andythenorth> all things are possible
20:03:01 <audigex> andythenorth: Currently yes, but if it’s a change then that could be something that was changed
20:03:01 <audigex> As long as the consist has power and there’s a driving vehicle at the front, off we go
20:03:26 <andythenorth> there isn't really a consist
20:03:31 <belajalilija> andythenorth: You forget i don’t understand code
20:03:40 <andythenorth> there's just a chain of vehicles, and the first vehicle has to have power, or it can't move
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20:04:10 <notluke2578> Can that not be changed
20:04:11 <andythenorth> 300 hp DVT, problem solved
20:04:36 <peter1138[d]> What's better, speculous biscuits, or speculating about OpenTTD internals?
20:04:54 <andythenorth> I didn't take a picture of my lunch
20:04:59 <peter1138[d]> Because andythenorth is entirely wrong there.
20:05:28 <andythenorth> But I said it confidently!
20:05:36 <andythenorth> and that's all that's needed - look at Gemini!
20:05:39 <peter1138[d]> Too much ChatGPT abuse.
20:05:49 <andythenorth> can't even turn Gemini off, it's everywhere, auto-summarising
20:05:54 <belajalilija> belajalilija: I’m gonna do this
20:06:08 <notluke2578> andythenorth: Can you not just ignore it?
20:07:34 <andythenorth> it was in a google meet today, with no way to hide it
20:07:56 <andythenorth> and on google docs PDF reader, autosummarising something that had other people's PII
20:08:01 <andythenorth> and no way to turn the damn thing off
20:08:18 <andythenorth> this stuff is a fucking plague, and the sooner it stops, the better
20:09:45 <notluke2578> It won’t stop, best to learn to ignore it
20:12:22 <yiffgirl> andythenorth: not something i ever expected to hear you say, but correct
20:13:01 <talltyler> Don't worry about solving DVTs in NewGRF, let us do it the right way in OpenTTD, please 🙂
20:14:17 <andythenorth> and snowploooooughs?
20:17:40 <talltyler> Yeah, that would work too 😄
20:17:48 <brickblock19280> would need cabs?
20:17:55 <brickblock19280> leading b units?
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20:25:21 <peter1138[d]> "Guess the age of the screenshot by how many other features are missing"
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20:31:00 <tony_pixel> peter1138[d]: wait
20:45:03 <andythenorth> talltyler: B unit can lead anyway, right? 😛
20:46:01 <talltyler> Not a B unit, but the engineer is driving from the second locomotive here 😛
20:46:13 <andythenorth> improved crossing safety
20:46:37 <talltyler> We heard you liked long hood first, how about an entire F45 first?
20:46:50 <talltyler> What a beast of a locomotive, I love those
20:50:14 <talltyler> An excellent question.
20:52:26 <andythenorth> need to finish Horse
20:54:01 <squirejames> A Class 20 with Cialis
20:54:10 <andythenorth> horse getting a bit moosey
20:54:36 <squirejames> I assumed they were early Type 1s, like the Class 15 or some such
20:56:27 <andythenorth> hmm not the correct channel
20:56:39 <andythenorth> more of a grf chat eh
20:59:22 <reldred> andythenorth: yeah when
20:59:34 <reldred> please my family are starving here
21:01:17 <andythenorth> TBH drawing about 1500 trains in multiple liveries is a bit daunting 🙂
21:04:30 <talltyler> ragin_: has already drawn a bunch of North American stuff, maybe there’s a collaboration to be had?
21:05:42 <ragin_> I'm always happy to share 🙂
21:05:52 <ragin_> Although I think the design for my sets and moose are a bit different
21:12:31 <reldred> Just harness Ragin’s raw youthful autism to power through the bulk of it
21:13:14 <tony_pixel> What in god's name is wrong with GIMP
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21:34:16 <belajalilija> Yes Andy can work on moose and I’ll remove the need for ibex
21:39:06 <peter1138[d]> tony_pixel: Its name?
21:39:33 <tony_pixel> peter1138[d]: among other things
21:39:43 <tony_pixel> But we've got GIT so it checks out
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21:59:00 <ragin_> reldred: My train autism is too powerful
22:16:54 <yiffgirl> peter1138[d]: > The consist stuff I did so far
22:16:54 <yiffgirl> is this in master or elsewhere? i'm not seeing it in vehicle_base.h
22:33:03 <yiffgirl> my current thinking is that any place that uses `v->Next()` et al should be able to be replaced with something that works at the consist level
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23:56:59 <talltyler> They’re not two implementations, they do different things but use the same name 😉
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continue to next day ⏵
