IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-08-01
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00:43:12 <johnfranklin> What happened to GitHub? Has it started doing something evil like Microsoft OneDrive?
00:48:54 <audigex> Nothing, it was a response to this (tweet thing?) from someone pointing out that open source projects often use non-open-source resources. Github and Discord are proprietary
00:48:54 <audigex> I always figured OpenTTD wasn't actually super-evangelical about the open source thing, it's always felt more about practicality than ideologically driven. That's not to say nobody here gives a shit about open source, but it's never felt to me like a driving factor in the project (personal opinion, I appreciate others may feel differently and I'm certainly no trying to speak for the community)
00:49:27 <audigex> Personally I've never seen a problem mixing open source and proprietary in my life, I use either as convenient
00:55:55 <reldred> Simple, someone has to fucking well pay for hosting a git lab instance. These foss activists on fedi love to piss and moan about it but they never want to front up any money for their hosting.
00:57:09 <reldred> We’ve already lost so much to self hosted SVN’s like the openttdcoop devzone disappearing
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01:11:01 <goddess_ishtar> yeah I'd hate GitHub a lot more if they were actually shitty
01:11:20 <goddess_ishtar> but it's a solid service, it's free (well, gratis), what's not to like
01:11:36 <goddess_ishtar> Convenience trumps ideology here
01:12:20 <audigex> Plus I can just host my own Gitea instance with a mirror if I care
01:40:55 <audigex> Or Codeberg for that matter
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02:54:37 <johnfranklin> Can Codeberg mirror GitHub?
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04:42:40 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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06:49:51 <johnfranklin> lol, the local openttd community is currently heavily focusing on another game
07:00:24 <pickpacket> johnfranklin: you have a local openttd community??
07:07:09 <johnfranklin> I just mean the whole Chinese-language openttd community
07:07:57 <johnfranklin> that game is AirlineSim
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07:08:42 <johnfranklin> It is not "free software", most games in their servers cost money
07:10:10 <johnfranklin> about one euro per week
07:27:04 <wensimehrp> 😄 It's just a QQ group chat, more like one single discord channel or any other group chats. How JF worded it overemphasized the scale of that community.
08:15:21 <pickpacket> wensimehrp: I know exactly one other openttd player in my town (and I introduced her to the game) and no sort of group communication about the game :)
08:15:50 <pickpacket> a group chat is a community level waaaay above what I have access to
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09:02:20 <pickpacket> peter1139: the kind with water in it?
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12:27:00 <audigex> johnfranklin: I assume so, it's a fork of Gitea which can *mostly* mirror Github (it isn't necessarily 1:1 with wiki and issues and stuff, I think?)
12:27:00 <audigex> I've only just tried the above and it hasn't finished migrating yet so no idea if it works, but I've got a local gitea mirror that works pretty well for keeping my copy of the code up to date
12:30:44 <johnfranklin> I only found notabug with "create a mirror" option
13:40:12 <peter1139> I had a mirror, but then I stopped my local gitea instance as it was being crawled by bots.
13:40:28 <peter1139> Haven't got around to fixing that properly :)
13:41:24 <peter1139> More reasons why OSS projects don't always want to self-host...
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14:23:55 <audigex> peter1139: I've stopped making any of my locally hosted stuff open to the internet now except one or two things via reverse proxy
14:23:55 <audigex> I just use Tailscale, makes life 10x easier in most cases
14:25:34 <truebrain> is that Open Source?
14:26:08 <merni> open source =/= distributing things compulsorily on the internet?
14:26:17 <audigex> Kinda, there's an open source coordinator called headscale and most platforms' apps are open source
14:27:24 <truebrain> OCI (Oracle Cloud) costs are 0.055 dollar per day. Poeh, expensive.
14:27:42 <truebrain> tomorrow I will see how much the AWS bill was impacted by my move of BaNaNaS 😛
14:27:48 <truebrain> I hope a good chunk 😄
14:28:32 <andythenorth> mine has gone up a lot
14:28:52 <andythenorth> most of it is because i turned on GuardDuty
14:28:54 <merni> well, everything still goes to your laptop
14:29:07 <audigex> iOS app isn't open source but does use mostly the same code
14:29:07 <audigex> But the Headscale coordinator
14:29:08 <audigex> As are stuff like the Android and Synology apps (I won't list them all here)
14:29:45 <truebrain> You should have picked a fully Open Source solution
14:29:47 <truebrain> this is not acceptable
14:30:11 <audigex> The only non-OSS part is iOS, and iOS is not open source so can safely be ignored
14:30:28 <audigex> Checkmate, appletheists
14:31:05 <truebrain> I will report you to those weirdoes that want everything touching OSS to be fully OSS
14:31:17 <truebrain> they will be ranting about you for a few now
14:32:02 <audigex> ... I now regret adding my street to OpenStreetMap, as they can now hunt me down to berate me
14:32:19 <audigex> Should've just left it on Google Maps where I would be safe
14:32:44 <truebrain> it is not about safety
14:32:47 <truebrain> it is about being pure
14:32:52 <truebrain> rinsed of all that what is corrupt
14:34:03 <andythenorth> it's a worldview
14:34:58 <audigex> truebrain: Safety in terms of the fact they wouldn't have been able to find my house if it was only listed on proprietary maps
14:35:38 <truebrain> I rather have they find your house than you using a non-OSS product
14:36:55 <truebrain> andythenorth: no, a life style!
14:37:06 <truebrain> when you go all in on OSS, it also means your computer has to be completely open sourced
14:37:13 <truebrain> and your desk .. your chair .. your house .. your food ...
14:37:36 <truebrain> so I will be in this cave, making some noises while hunting for some food
14:39:23 <audigex> Weirdly I feel like the desk chair would be the hardest part of that to open source
14:39:44 <truebrain> 5 pieces of wood difficult? 😛
14:39:54 <audigex> I could feasibly build a (bad) house, definitely a desk, and food for sure... but I've got no idea how to make a gas strut and the spinny bit
14:40:15 <audigex> No no, an office desk must spin around and go up and down - otherwise what are we even doing?
14:41:13 <truebrain> isn't that life's question?
14:41:35 <truebrain> but mostly, I really do not understand people posting that shit like: you are an Open Source project, EVERYTHING YOU TOUCH SHOULD BE OSS
14:41:39 <truebrain> that is such a non-sense thing to say
14:41:51 <truebrain> as why stop with "Gitlab", "Codeberg" and "Matrix"?
14:42:08 <truebrain> ignoring the fact Gitea clearly showed that "OSS" isn't always as free as it looks
14:42:27 <andythenorth> you should use open source broadband
14:42:34 <andythenorth> and open source 0s and 1s
14:42:55 <truebrain> I mean, I am fine if you don't want to use GitHub or Discord .. but don't tell others how to do stuff
14:43:01 <andythenorth> it's basically just a load of shit, and Linus' favourite laptop is a MBP anyway
14:43:07 <truebrain> it is the definition of gatekeeping, isn't it?
14:43:07 <andythenorth> Stallman probably lesss so
14:43:21 <audigex> Yeah it makes little sense to me. I'm all in favour of using OSS where possible but sometimes proprietary options are more useful. Especially for things that aren't too tying and can be migrated away from if the company starts being a dick
14:43:42 <audigex> Also, I wonder if the guy is running on 100% open source hardware...
14:44:09 <truebrain> what people seem to forget ... they refuse to pay a cent for Open Source software, in general (OpenTTD donators are an exception, ofc), yet they expect everything up and down the chain of OSS development to be OSS too
14:44:15 <truebrain> so ....... unless food becomes free
14:44:19 <audigex> Even the Raspberry Pi isn't 100% open source, is there anything that is?
14:44:22 <truebrain> we have a bit of a problem 😛
14:45:36 <truebrain> and yes, I might have an opinion about this 😛 Created after years of people complaining about this non-sense 😛
14:46:42 <audigex> haha I think it's probably frustration - it's annoying when you give your free time (and lots of it) to doing something free and open and community-based, and people still find something to complain about which really isn't that significant
14:46:42 <audigex> If Discord or Github started kicking puppies tomorrow we could easily migrate away
14:47:25 <_jgr_> A single post on mastodon doesn't really count for anything
14:47:31 <_jgr_> I wouldn't worry about it
14:47:33 <audigex> As you say, they're welcome to commit as hard as they want to 100%-OSS, but they shouldn't expect it from others. The only thing I'll accept somewhat is the "I don't want to use Discord, but that's where your community is" which could potentially put a few people off from getting involved
14:47:40 <truebrain> _jgr_: no, but it is fun to make fun of it 😛
14:47:43 <truebrain> and it was a long day for me 😄
14:48:00 <truebrain> audigex: introducing our bridge to IRC! 🙂
14:48:36 <truebrain> if you want to be a primitive person chisseling your words on stone, join IRC; we will find you in here as well 😄
14:48:38 <audigex> Our open source* bridge to IRC
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14:49:07 <xarothbrook> I still find it funny that people point at GitLab for "true open source"
14:49:44 <audigex> Yeah half of Gitlab's stuff is "source available", which is really not the same thing
14:49:46 <xarothbrook> when it has an enterprise edition with stuff that is not 'open'
14:50:22 <truebrain> Star Trek gave the best example, we should just do away with money! 😄
14:50:36 <audigex> How many of our OTTD devs use Linux? All/most/some/few/none?
14:50:54 <truebrain> Windows + WSL over here! \o/
14:51:10 <audigex> truebrain: Bashir definitely spent some gold pressed latinum on some "personal time" with a Jadzia hologram at Quarks
14:53:08 <audigex> Is WSL being discontinued? Or just the Android part?
14:53:37 <truebrain> lol, no, WSL is not discontinued
14:53:49 <truebrain> it is actively developed even
14:54:22 <audigex> Yeah looks like it's just the WSA part
14:55:30 <audigex> It's MIT, wonder if anyone wil fork and continue it
14:58:23 <wensimehrp> audigex: The repo is only for issues and contains no code.
14:58:59 <wensimehrp> WSA is not open source. It is an MS proprietary
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15:44:05 <johnfranklin> I use linux for hosting but currently I abandoned WSL and using Powershell + scoop instead
15:50:54 <johnfranklin> The option of changing the "scoring end year" is removed?
15:51:13 <johnfranklin> there is a person on forums saying that
16:03:00 <talltyler> People on forums are…wrong?
16:06:26 <truebrain> /me creates a PR to ensure they are not. We can't have forum people being wrong.
16:08:35 <andythenorth> no it's definitely gone
16:08:39 <andythenorth> you can see it there, missing
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16:17:58 <audigex> Maybe not changed to all settings? I forget which ones are basic and which are advanced/expert etc
16:28:18 <talltyler> I replied on the forum. Its an advanced setting, so yeah, probably user error that way
16:33:03 <truebrain> /me throws away PR 😦
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17:58:35 <audigex> Don't ask if you can ask a question, just ask the question
17:58:35 <audigex> Chances are you're in the wrong channel unless your question is about building or developing OpenTTD itself though, are you sure you don't want Discord channel #openttd or Discord channel #openttd-help instead?
17:59:43 <audigex> Oh, didn't see the app tag
17:59:43 <audigex> In Discord this is Discord channel #openttd-development
17:59:56 <audigex> No that's my fault Remi, I didn't notice you were on IRC
18:00:05 <audigex> Still, just ask the question rather than asking if you can ask a question
18:01:24 <_glx_> well it's on the IRC chan topic 🙂
18:01:49 <Remi> In the community help page, there is no distinction between General and Development, that is the same link
18:02:02 <peter1139> LordAro, a mad man.
18:02:17 <_glx_> if someone has the answer you'll get it
18:03:18 <Remi> My question : Why airports are not lifetime available ?
18:04:26 <Remi> I started with small airports and it's take me many times to understand there aren't available anymore :(
18:05:06 <andythenorth> Add OpenGFX+ Airports grf
18:08:09 <Remi> Ok i see it in the manual
18:12:48 <goddess_ishtar> audigex: I use Arch btw
18:13:24 <goddess_ishtar> Remi: There's a setting for "Airports never expire" as well
18:17:53 <Remi> giddess_ishtar : You're right. Thank you !!
18:27:35 <peter1139> Hmm, I had a savegame with lots of animated-tile heavy NewGRFs...
18:27:43 <peter1139> I can't remember which it was :S
19:07:21 <peter1138> 51537 animated tiles? Hmm.
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20:15:25 <peter1139> Well done... doesn't quite cover it.
20:45:18 <peter1139> Of course, doing it this way means there's no proper attribution...
21:03:40 <talltyler> Didn’t read your PR in detail, but it might close #10192
21:05:38 <peter1139> Probably helps, yes.
21:07:03 <andythenorth> you made FIRS faster?
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21:09:19 <peter1139> Have you got a savegame that is slowed noticably by FIRS?
21:14:26 <peter1139> talltyler, it is that exact savegame that I'm testing though :D
21:19:11 <andythenorth> peter1139: no it's more anecdotal, watching FPS when industries are on screen
21:19:41 <peter1139> I prefer empirical and reproducible.
21:20:18 <peter1139> Rather, less wasting my time :p
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22:28:34 <tony_pixel> What's currently required (if anyone knows) to implement for train reversing to work?
22:30:18 <reldred> talltyler: was the last to try I believe
22:30:28 <reldred> Had some significant issues though
22:30:55 <tony_pixel> Chris sawyer managed to do that in locomotio
22:31:13 <reldred> Sure, he also coded the entire engine by himself in x86 assembler
22:31:31 <tony_pixel> What I mean to say is, if he'd done it, it is possible
22:31:48 <tony_pixel> Although we are unaware whether it was built upon a mountain of hacks
22:31:49 <reldred> Everything is possible. It’s time and effort that are the limiting factors.
22:33:11 <reldred> If you want to cover a devs expenses so they can quit their day jobs and do this all day every day then time and effort become less of a limiting factor.
22:33:48 <peter1139> The main thing that is required is for someone to be interested in it enough to actually work on it.
22:34:16 <tony_pixel> I should finish the NML language server and go work on this one
22:34:57 <tony_pixel> I live for push-pull, so that would be extra cool
22:35:03 <FLHerne> tony_pixel: 'train reversing' as in avoiding the 'flip' when reversing direction?
22:35:20 <tony_pixel> Yes, to preserve whole order of cars
22:36:05 <FLHerne> some trainsets like UKRS2 imitate it with hacks (swap graphics of the end vehicles)
22:36:21 <tony_pixel> Yes, as a matter of fact I do that too in NAPR
22:36:29 <tony_pixel> But that is still a hack
22:37:49 <FLHerne> I'd be surprised if it's terribly complicated to implement
22:38:47 <tony_pixel> Not at all: one check for the engine if last car is cab car and one check for cab car if engine is of supported sprite-reverse type
22:39:36 <peter1139> Awesome, sounds like there are volunteers :D
22:39:40 <reldred> The last person to try ran into an issue and abandoned it.
22:39:53 <reldred> I believe that was 2talltyler
22:39:54 <tony_pixel> I will ask Tyler about it
22:40:14 <FLHerne> peter1139: there were a few NML things on my to-do list once the summer's over
22:40:26 <tony_pixel> Gonna finish my Amfleet now
22:40:41 <reldred> It’ll be on their GitHub somewhwre
22:41:09 <FLHerne> I'm operating 1930s canal boats pretty much every weekend from now to end of September, takes up a lot of time :p
22:56:39 <peter1139> andythenorth, looks like FIRS5 uses the animation frame value as a timer, so a different values can point to the same graphics.
22:57:25 <peter1139> It would be better to have 1 animation frame for each different frame, and then change the animation frame as necessary.
22:57:36 <peter1139> But orchestrating that might be more work for you.
22:58:05 <peter1139> The changes I did assume that different animation frame value = different graphics.
23:00:06 <audigex> tony_pixel: What about if we want the whole MU to be flippable, though? 🙂
23:08:06 <tony_pixel> I was speaking about the hack
23:08:17 <tony_pixel> Ofc it would be different in game code
23:22:39 <peter1139> > The meaning is the same as for house property 1B, but the lower limit is 0 instead of 2, so the fastest possible animation changes frames every game tick (27ms). The default value is 2.
23:22:53 <peter1139> I like how that has said 27ms since forever, and yet...
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