IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-07-18
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04:43:48 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
07:24:37 <truebrain> right ... time to see if I can deploy BaNaNaS on another cluster with as little downtime as possible 😄
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07:30:45 <peter1139> Right... time to see if I have to go back to work today.
07:32:01 <reldred> I got called up today. Was supposed to have the week off. They made it til Thursday before they shit their pants.
07:32:28 <truebrain> You did a bad job training a side-kick? 😛
07:34:28 <reldred> pfft, our team is down to two people
07:34:51 <reldred> the only survivor is a junior and he was out of the office on another customer site when the 'disaster' struck
07:35:38 <truebrain> no worries, I still blame you 😛
07:36:03 <reldred> that's alright, I blame me as well for not getting out sooner 😛
07:36:08 <johnfranklin> I am supposed to have classes / selfstudy sessions now, but I am permitted to rest due to... the body temperature has gone down but the throat is still sore... cough cough
07:38:25 <truebrain> okay .. I made a little plan for this deployment. Let's see if that works out 😄
07:39:10 <peter1139> A plan? That doesn't sound right.
07:40:08 <truebrain> it isn't a big plan
07:40:11 <truebrain> mainly: just go for it
07:40:14 <truebrain> but .. it is a plan!
07:41:31 <johnfranklin> Plan to do huge, actually do noting
07:45:01 <truebrain> okay, deployed on OCI. Initial tests show it is doing what it should be doing. Time to switch some DNS you say?
07:48:29 <reldred> May your records propogate in a predictable and timely fashion
07:49:00 <truebrain> that is the fun part: both AWS and OCI are still fully operational, and in sync. So I don't even care how long DNS propogation takes this time 😛
07:49:39 <truebrain> my only issue atm is "order-of-mutation" .. all these tools, Terraform, Pulumi, have one issue .. that if you move a node to another parent, it creates+destroys
07:49:47 <truebrain> but DNS doesn't like it, when you first create a duplicate, to destroy it again
07:49:54 <truebrain> it leaves you with a less-than-desirable state 😛
07:50:25 <truebrain> and negative-cache on DNS, is more an issue
07:50:35 <truebrain> (DNS caches "record does not exist" for much longer than I always want to 😛 )
07:50:52 <truebrain> `expected DNS record to not already be present but already exists` 😄
07:58:07 <truebrain> okay, everyone should now be directed to OCI .. seems to work fine
07:58:32 <truebrain> please ping me if you see reports otherwise 😄
08:08:35 <truebrain> the instances went from a 3.5% CPU load to a wopping 6.3%!
08:10:30 <truebrain> network activity went from 10k (no clue what unit) to 100k!
08:10:40 <truebrain> people do love their content
08:13:05 <truebrain> Also, next time someone doesn't add a Motivation to their PR, I now have the most excellent piece of text to put in there
08:15:48 <truebrain> I like the last sentence. Such a door-closer 😛
08:17:45 <truebrain> okay ... I see people successfully downloading content via OCI, both over HTTPS (via Cloudflare) and over TCP (directly via OCI). So this seems to work fine.
08:19:54 <truebrain> owh my, the costs on OCI. I don't know what to think about this. They are charging us 0.055 pound per day now! That will be 1.65 pound a month! (in contrast, AWS, for the same stuff, costs ~90 dollar a month)
08:21:07 <reldred> That sounds like a billing error waiting to be corrected 😛
08:21:34 <LordAro> doesn't sound particularly sustainable, for sure
08:21:56 <LordAro> not that Oracle is at any particular risk of running out of money
08:21:58 <truebrain> I hope for Oracle not many people are like us, and doing things like this 😛
08:22:34 <truebrain> just to be clear, this is the case because their Always Free part is pretty nice. Our compute (just) fits within that Always Free. The only thing we pay for here, is a single 50GB Block Volume
08:23:00 <truebrain> if we would grow any bigger, it would cost more. Still about 50% of what AWS charges for the same thing.
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08:24:35 <truebrain> efessel: can confirm, it is 200GB free. No matter how many volumes. You can see that in the dashboard under Boot Volumes, as it turns out. Looks pretty 🙂
08:24:38 <LordAro> how can they justify having an "always free" tier though? just left over compute from the bigger instances that would otherwise just be completely unused?
08:25:09 <truebrain> I think it is more an: attract people to use OCI for stuff like we do, so it is more likely that the company you work for will start using it too
08:25:25 <dwfreed> it's like a drug dealer giving you your first hit for free
08:25:46 <truebrain> so I think it is just a write-off for them
08:26:23 <truebrain> that said, the biggest "Always Free" in compute you can get at OCI is with ARM compute
08:26:31 <truebrain> which is just, relatively speaking, crazy cheap for them too
08:27:16 <truebrain> You can scale your VM from 1 to 80 (!) ARM cores
08:27:39 <truebrain> the "Always Free" gives you 20 cores for free
08:27:43 <truebrain> so 1/4th of a single machine
08:28:08 <truebrain> (assuming 80 cores is a single machine; I don't even know 😛 )
08:28:50 <truebrain> it is an Ampere Altra .. so 128 cores
08:28:56 <truebrain> so it is even less of a single machine
08:29:12 <LordAro> Some of them have 80 cores from a brief google
08:29:31 <truebrain> and if they use blades instead of rack-servers
08:29:36 <truebrain> the efficiency could be insane
08:29:53 <truebrain> and although the "Always Free" costs them money; it might be far less costs than we think 🙂
08:30:05 <andythenorth> Can we run GPT on them? 😛
08:30:18 <truebrain> actually, you can. Those machines are also meant for AI loads
08:31:26 <truebrain> the OCI metrics (you get for free btw; at AWS you have to pay for those) are funny. They show a negative value every N minutes. So the bandwidth goes to -15M all of a sudden 😛
08:31:58 <truebrain> Network Bytes Transmitted values
08:32:04 <truebrain> I transmitted negative bytes! 😄
08:36:50 <peter1139> Is this Linus being toxic again? ;)
08:37:52 <truebrain> Is it actually Toxic?
08:39:52 <reldred> I'd say wasting someones time knowingly is pretty toxic as well
08:41:19 <truebrain> wow, my brain crashed ... powershell command, `2>&1` .. that doesn't sound right .... 😛
08:41:40 <truebrain> I just ......... ieuw
08:42:18 <LordAro> funnily enough, i'm not actually doing that in powershell, i just needed something that redirected stderr
08:42:26 <LordAro> the actual code is in MSYS of course
08:43:43 <truebrain> LordAro: PLEASE POST YOUR SVG FFS! 😛
08:44:20 <truebrain> that guy is not even a Contributor or anything
08:44:55 <LordAro> yeah, i clocked that too
08:44:57 <peter1139> To be fair, with "it does it with any file" type problems I always want a reference file just to make sure.
08:45:11 <truebrain> that request was valid; and it was supplied 🙂
08:45:44 <truebrain> you could update your initial post, for visibility
08:45:59 <truebrain> but what a lovely issue you found 😛
08:47:02 <LordAro> we only spotted it because we had a following grep that checked the output for WARNING
08:47:35 <LordAro> (because imagemagick/inkscape will just happily substitute a missing font for some fallback without any errors)
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09:12:48 <peter1139> Well. First Teams call ended with someone's internet connection being broken.
09:26:16 <LordAro> was that someone you?
09:26:32 <andythenorth> Where is the IT future?
09:26:49 <andythenorth> Paperless office?
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10:15:07 <peter1139> Well, the office's internet is nothing to do with me.
10:15:20 <peter1139> (They don't have any internet, they just use mobile data.)
10:16:50 <peter1139> LordAro, what cycle-camping trip should I do next?
10:17:27 <LordAro> peter1139: Wales is right on your doorstep
10:27:49 <andythenorth> Hmm bike touring
10:27:57 <andythenorth> More battery needed
10:29:00 <peter1139> Well, actually with the pace I was doing I didn't need anything much, only for the long rides there and back.
10:29:21 <LordAro> shhh, don't reveal the secrets to riding long distances
10:30:53 <peter1139> Hah! It's basically remembering to stop to actually have lunch. Secret's out.
10:31:15 <LordAro> also just generally "go slower"
10:34:11 <peter1139> My club were doing 130 miles at 19 mph while I was away. Unloaded of course.
10:35:34 <LordAro> i was barely holding on with 45mi @ 20mph last night (with some hills)
10:35:59 <peter1139> Some bumps adding up to 5,000ft.
10:36:10 <LordAro> though i'm only a week and a bit away from my big thing, so had no desire to destroy myself (especially with my knee still being a bit off)
10:40:31 <peter1139> Legs were tired by the end of my return journey, but no cramp or anything. The first half I kept steady for the distance and the hills to come. Second half was faster as I knew the route was mostly flat, and I'd had lunch.
10:42:14 <peter1139> Routing with Strava on the phone app has less options than the web site :(
10:42:43 <peter1139> No choice for preferred elevation.
10:46:03 <LordAro> yeah, i've got Flat/Hilly preference options
10:46:18 <peter1139> For auto-generated routes, yes.
10:46:42 <peter1139> Maybe that affects a custom route too, but you can't tweak that once started.
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10:46:52 <LordAro> i've never really used strava for routing
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10:50:14 <peter1139> I have Garmin Connect at my disposal too, but that does made things.
10:50:32 <peter1139> And Google's cycle routing is usually hilolrious.
10:51:52 <peter1139> Garmin's route (without waypoints at least) took my back the way I'd just come too.
10:53:17 <LordAro> most of my routes are copied/transcribed from there
11:13:33 <peter1139> Takes me right through the middle of Newbury, without waypoints :)
11:15:53 <Rubidium> just follow the river I'd say ;)
11:16:53 <Rubidium> it looked like a pretty nice cycle path back when I was there
11:25:14 <peter1139> Rivers eventually go up :)
11:26:47 <peter1139> Bit of a detour too.
11:34:59 <kuhnovic> Openttd-cycling will be added soon 😉
11:35:20 <peter1139> Bikes are transport, so clearly on-topic.
11:36:38 <kuhnovic> Cyclist NewGRF when?
11:37:03 <andythenorth> peter1139: Bristol-Bath cycle path is ok, then there’s a link up to the old Severn Bridge
11:37:30 <andythenorth> I think there’s a canal towpath route somewhere through wiltshire maybe
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11:41:34 <peter1139> andythenorth, with the Kennet and Avon canal, and the Grand Union canal, there's almost an entire water-way based route.
11:41:45 <peter1139> Might not be navigable though.
11:42:06 <kuhnovic> talltyler: Haha of course, and of course it's dutch 😁
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12:10:31 <andythenorth> peter1139: Water-bike?
12:10:57 <andythenorth> I went on a pedallo once, was rubbish
12:32:20 <peter1139> It would take rather more than 7½ hours.
12:33:56 <peter1139> Zone 2 for 5:55:55, apparently. Such numbers.
12:34:03 <LordAro> oh yeah, the numbers at the bottom are largely nonsense
12:35:06 <peter1139> That's the number I recorded :)
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12:50:27 <peter1139> Good job bicycles don't have to pay the fee for the tollbridge across the Thames that I wasn't expecting :D
12:51:51 <peter1139> Oh, that function doesn't work because it's just a stub. Oops.
14:00:31 <LordAro> self resolving issues are always nice
14:00:38 <truebrain> not when I started to type 😛
14:01:36 <truebrain> I should make the README a bit more clear; it is not all that obvious what to do where
14:01:38 <truebrain> Discord is just so MEH
14:01:42 <truebrain> (when it comes to permissions)
14:17:47 <truebrain> traffic on AWS. No longer any spiky shit in the last few hours. Weird 😛
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15:03:57 <truebrain> yes, spiky traffic is spiky 😛
15:05:33 <peter1139> Looks crap, there's no good length descents to roll down.
15:08:11 <LordAro> peter1139: i can recommend the 20 mile descent in the Pennines i had last weekend
16:28:45 <peter1139> Group ride in 2 minutes, guess I'll skip this one.
16:29:09 <peter1139> Need to swap pedals, hah.
16:33:12 <peter1139> 4 minutes later... done. :p
16:33:43 <Rubidium> that's a short group ride ;)
16:35:34 <peter1139> More time for silly PRs.
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16:52:45 <michi_cc[d]> Any further thoughts about my silly PR, or should I free up some space in the PR list again?
16:54:11 <truebrain> It isn't merged yet?
16:56:07 <michi_cc[d]> Could change momentarily with some 👍 😛
16:56:45 <truebrain> Sadly that requires me creating an opinion about the matter ... 😛
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17:28:57 <talltyler> michi_cc[d]: I like it, will try to review soon 🙂
17:37:55 <_glx_> github should stop allowing copilot business requests when the organisation doesn't have it
17:40:34 <yiffgirl> github should stop allowing copilot
17:47:55 <audigex> Never gonna happen, AI is the current buzzword and Microsoft want to push theirs
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17:48:47 <goddess_ishtar> Wait Microsoft own GitHub?
18:02:52 <truebrain> _glx_: It is silly it is even allowed for Open Source organisation .. like, why can't we just say: no to all
18:03:51 <truebrain> mostly as I assume most of us developers already have one of their free "because you are an Open Source dev" license
18:10:37 <audigex> truebrain: That only applies for “popular” projects, so OpenTTD devs get it but not those of us mere GRF developers etc
18:11:03 <truebrain> those are not the ones bugging us with "I WANT COPILOT BUT YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT"
18:11:47 <goddess_ishtar> why would you *want* Copilot?
18:13:02 <truebrain> please don't gatekeep people like that; not really useful addition to a conversation 🙂
18:21:36 <andythenorth> Copilot is just a go faster tool?
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19:00:54 <FLHerne> audigex: I'd be surprised if Copilot has seen enough NML code to do anything constructive for grf dev anyway?
19:01:07 <FLHerne> it's a bit of a niche language
19:01:52 <audigex> Plenty of use for Python in GRF development though
19:02:13 <audigex> Or something to produce documentation like Iron Horse etc have
19:03:45 <goddess_ishtar> yeah there's a surprising amount of grf dev that isn't just NML
19:10:29 <truebrain> FLHerne: I asked CoPilot about NML, and at least it knows about this:
19:10:33 <truebrain> so there is at least something in the trainingset 🙂
19:11:07 <FLHerne> audigex: I suppose that's true
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19:13:07 <truebrain> seems to have some knowledge of NML syntax 🙂 But of course, CoPilot is best used to do the mundane tasks, like repeating blocks with slight variations, etc 😉
19:23:12 <_jgr_> For stuff like that, you could just write a perl script to do the text munging. Much easier for your colleagues to tweak afterwards 🙂
19:24:26 <truebrain> Sounds like more work 😛
19:29:47 <audigex> \*vomits in a 2002 accent\*
19:37:07 <truebrain> Much like IRC, we do love to keep Perl alive in here 🙂
19:39:09 <yiffgirl> that reminds me. i must figure out weechat at some point
19:39:49 <audigex> Fact is we all stick with what we know, I should really spend some time figuring out React/React Native or something but I stick with HTML/Bootstrap/JQuery most of the time because it's comfortable
19:41:55 <audigex> Tbf I can see a lot of merit of the basic React concept - being able to essentially build your own (interactive) elements is genius
19:41:55 <audigex> I just hate the way it's written in pure JS with janky function declarations. I want a pre-process step that handles that for me
19:42:12 <truebrain> Jquery is still a thing? As in, still maintained?
19:42:16 <audigex> (Angular did it first I guess? But that whole component model thign)
19:42:37 <audigex> truebrain: You maintain a 30 year old game and you're surprised JQuery is still going? 😂
19:43:31 <truebrain> But yeah, haven't read anything about it in a long while 🙂
19:43:55 <truebrain> And about React, took me over a year to be able to write a decent app, with a lot of help .. the learning curve is horrible
19:44:04 <truebrain> So many weird bits and pieces
19:44:22 <truebrain> If you think you know, you actually don't 😛
19:45:22 <audigex> It's definitely way dropped in popularity but yeah still used and maintained. For a lot of things it's actually still quite a nice way to write JS I think, for smaller tasks where you just want to change one thing. It falls over once you get beyond manipulating one thing and start trying to track state more thoroughly
19:45:36 <audigex> Yeah React definitely wouldn't be my first choice in many ways but popular has a value of its own
19:45:48 <truebrain> I really liked Jquery.
19:46:22 <audigex> I kinda wish JQuery's DOM selection stuff would make its way into JS in general. The rest I can live without but the selector is a delight
19:46:42 <peter1139> querySelector() not enough?
19:46:54 <_jgr_> A lot of the more advanced selector stuff is supported in most browsers
19:47:12 <truebrain> It is scary how many things modern browsers can do
19:47:34 <audigex> peter1139: Unnecessarily wordy and not supported widely enough for commercial projects. They should just support $() natively
19:47:51 <Timberwolf> I miss JQuery. Just being able to go "call this API and change this bit of DOM in response" without having to worry about how it's going to affect state, properties or cause re-renders.
19:47:57 <audigex> `document.querySelector()` vs `$()` is no contest
19:48:09 <_jgr_> You can rebind window.$ to whatever you want
19:48:25 <peter1139> If querySelector is not available you're running on a very ancient browser.
19:48:29 <audigex> Timberwolf: Yeah this is exactly it for me. Get something, change what you need to change, done. 90% of the time that's all a website is actually doing
19:48:38 <Timberwolf> And when accordion controls felt amazingly fancy and futuristic.
19:48:45 <audigex> peter1139: Welcome to public sector work in the UK 😉 we still ran XP until like a year or two ago
19:49:00 <peter1139> IE 9-10 had support...
19:49:51 <audigex> All well and good if you're running Vista, not so much when you've got an almost entirely untouched XP machine that shouldn't even be allowed within 20ft of an ethernet port
19:50:04 <audigex> Tbf I'm complaining about a VERY niche situation that the browsers can hardly be blamed for
19:50:06 <truebrain> Btw, if you use React, I can suggest https://mantine.dev/ .. saves you so much time, and a lot easier to work with than Bootstrap
19:50:34 <Timberwolf> Few companies ago we built this really nice front-end pub/sub architecture, you built all the components independently and then hooked them up to a message bus for all the user inputs, API responses, etc.
19:50:51 <audigex> truebrain: I'll take a look, thanks
19:51:06 <Timberwolf> I still like it more than the hierarchical props model current firm's React code uses.
19:51:36 <truebrain> Also, React 19 has a compiler, which makes writing fast React a lot easier
19:51:53 <_jgr_> I did some work on this kind of thing when WebComponents was The Future.
19:52:58 <_jgr_> Of course all the web component stuff just turned out to be a pain in the rear, and needing giant awkward polyfills forever
20:01:48 <peter1138> LordAro, it was hot
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