IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-07-04
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04:43:10 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
05:03:26 <johnfranklin> 41.3 degree C, LOL
05:06:26 <goddess_ishtar> nice and comfy
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06:44:35 <goddess_ishtar> we mentioned cargo ageing in Discord channel #add-on-development the other day in the context of grfs slowing down the ageing actually making sense since the cargo payment floor was removed so I decided to read that PR
06:44:52 <goddess_ishtar> major spacebar heating vibes here
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08:45:41 <pickpacket> goddess_ishtar: I had totally forgot about that PR. Have taught people wrong for a year!
08:45:57 <reldred> yeah that would have been a dumpster fire
08:50:01 <goddess_ishtar> "WHY ARE YOU FORCING YOUR PLAYSTYLE ON EVERYONE ELSE BY NERFING LONG NETWORKS INTO THE GROUND"
08:51:43 <goddess_ishtar> "The changes to the cargo payment graph are such that a distance of several thousand tiles would be needed to notice anything different, and the whole point of the PR is to close the exploit of extremely slow routes becoming inexplicably profitable with enough distance"
08:52:55 <LordAro> it's a real nice test save though
08:54:46 <pickpacket> Why did slow routes become so profitable before that PR?
08:59:08 <goddess_ishtar> there was a floor to the cargo ageing algorithm so after a certain point taking longer didn't mean any less profit
08:59:23 <goddess_ishtar> and from there you could still get more profit from a longer route
08:59:36 <reldred> a lot of the algorithms come directly from TTD and 256x256 map sizes
09:00:01 <reldred> the original OTTD release was an acurate engine recreation after all
09:00:07 <goddess_ishtar> so it led to a point where making a longer route regardless of the speed would eventually come out the other side and become profitable again
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09:00:09 <wensimehrp> the game needs proper scaling
09:00:12 <reldred> increased map sizes etc. came later.
09:01:00 <goddess_ishtar> since the cargo was already maximally aged
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09:01:49 <emperorjake> Similar to how you can bottom out and increase your town reputation by removing and replanting trees
09:03:29 <goddess_ishtar> tree cheese is a sacred institution of the OpenTTD playerbase
09:12:28 <peter1139> emperorjake, negative town ratings when?
09:15:46 <emperorjake> Isn't the lowest possible rating -1000?
09:16:16 <peter1139> Ah, it is already signed... oh :)
09:16:34 <goddess_ishtar> emperorjake: It doesn't show you the number in-game but yeah I think so
09:16:48 <peter1139> I wonder why initial rating is 500 instead of 0 then.
09:17:34 <goddess_ishtar> obscure historical reasons probably
09:28:27 <LordAro> i think at this point removing that exploit would cause actual pitchforks
09:37:33 <Rubidium> peter1139: play-tweaking by CS?
09:41:14 <LordAro> pah, bet he never played the game
09:43:22 <goddess_ishtar> only Philistines *play* OpenTTD
09:43:53 <goddess_ishtar> true artists argue constantly about balance without opening the game in the last several months
09:44:29 <LordAro> months? rookie numbers
10:06:12 <peter1139> I only look at the game to make sure that scrollbar thickness hasn't been changed.
10:07:11 <emperorjake> LordAro: It would at least get people to actually use the "permissive" setting for local authorities
10:08:32 <goddess_ishtar> I still strongly feel that if a game mechanic is so broken that a sizable chunk of your playerbase recommends you play with it disabled entirely then it needs to be heavily reworked
10:11:16 <peter1139> "Broken" is often a subjective view.
10:14:46 <Rubidium> bye AI and bye multiplayer I'd guess ;)
10:19:07 <reldred> goddess_ishtar: A lot of that is super subjective though, I play with breakdowns on for instance which some vocal players absolutely dismiss as broken and should be turned off
10:22:48 <locosage> LordAro: at this point authority can be disabled so it may be ok, though how would you even remove it without causing more issues?
10:24:02 <locosage> though it kinda stalled because 2tt monopolized all time-related words 😜
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10:39:50 <gwyd4016> Every feature should be a setting
10:40:15 <gwyd4016> I should be able to set scroll bar width to 1px disable water
10:42:12 <truebrain> Your fork is ------> that way 😉
10:43:05 <reldred> that's like, the majority of my jgrpp patch making career, find an arbitrary value I disagree with, wrap a setting around it.
10:55:01 <merni> at this point you should just be able to change values of all game variables
10:55:10 <merni> create some sort of memory inspector within openttd
10:55:39 <merni> \/s in case it wasn't sufficiently obvious
11:00:26 <johnfranklin> The problem is, for example, in vanilla games road has no speed limit, but we want to limit roads in cities in 50 km/h or similar.
11:00:53 <peter1139> Definitely a "problem"
11:01:34 <johnfranklin> We limit ourselves for something high-valued
11:01:39 <merni> I don't think road realism is a thing to aim for as long as we have vehicles that can literally phase through each other
11:02:10 <merni> where are the traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and the reckless drivers causing crashes
11:02:13 <johnfranklin> And in such way, cargo scaling is important.
11:02:19 <truebrain> Busses the size of houses still crack me up every time 🙂
11:02:39 <LordAro> merni: don't forget the cyclists running the red lights
11:02:52 <merni> and the lorries running the red lights
11:03:02 <johnfranklin> We don't want Foster Super Bus to reach 127 all the time. They slow at least 1/2.
11:03:05 <truebrain> Police, ambulance .. and before you know it you are playing another game 😛
11:03:30 <johnfranklin> So to be consistent with "vanilla", the cargo scaling is a thing
11:03:36 <merni> how could I forget cows
11:04:12 <LordAro> johnfranklin: we have roadtypes for such things
11:04:18 <LordAro> some of them even change the defaults for towns
11:04:43 <johnfranklin> I don't know why "money is a bad feature" could be a mainstream. If something is imperfect, we should change it instead of leaving it to rot.
11:06:20 <johnfranklin> The 17 Sustainable Development Goal by United Nations are so hard to reach. Would anyone think we had better not achieving them?
11:06:29 <merni> in the end though it's no fun if it's realistic and you can only build say one tile of track a year
11:06:58 <peter1139> So basically... "We want speed limits for towns" "Here's a NewGRF feature that lets you set up whatever speed limits you like" "No, not like that"
11:07:11 <merni> johnfranklin: this is such a non-sequitur 😆
11:07:39 <johnfranklin> So I value cargo_age_period
11:07:45 <johnfranklin> Yes, BAD FEATURES
11:07:56 <merni> This is a game, not a parliament... how do SDG get involved here 😆
11:08:07 <johnfranklin> This is the philosophy of it
11:08:20 <johnfranklin> And openttd is not a normal game. It is life.
11:08:32 <johnfranklin> It reflects a kind of philosophy.
11:08:53 <johnfranklin> Oh, how should I say it... let me think...
11:10:36 <johnfranklin> China Railway 2003-2011
11:10:36 <johnfranklin> To be admitted into IIT (you should be familiar)
11:10:36 <johnfranklin> They are of the same spirit
11:11:34 <merni> do you want to make openttd into some sort of challenge game where only people who put insane amounts of time into it can do anything
11:11:42 <merni> and what does China Railway have to do with that
11:12:01 <johnfranklin> We know we are not perfect. But we are consistently moving toward Perfect. Just as the origin of the world "Philosophy"
11:12:23 <merni> > Middle English: from Old French philosophie, via Latin from Greek philosophia ‘love of wisdom’.
11:12:36 <merni> doesn't seem to have anything to do with perfect, or openttd for that matter
11:13:09 <johnfranklin> I mean: we are not wisdom ourselves, but we should at least have the spirit of moving toward wisdom
11:13:29 <merni> everyone has a different view of it
11:13:44 <johnfranklin> Don't be trapped into relativism.
11:13:47 <merni> that is why philosophy isn't just maths 😆
11:14:12 <merni> johnfranklin: Idk what conversation you want to have here but this isn't the place to talk about philosophy and I'm the wrong person lol
11:14:43 <johnfranklin> I mean, my effort of "cargo age period" in NewGRF should not be thought as useless.
11:15:17 <johnfranklin> And money is not totally a bad feature.
11:15:46 <merni> johnfranklin: you could've just said that outright and I owuld've probably agreed with you
11:15:54 <merni> johnfranklin: that's just a meme
11:16:22 <merni> I don't think anyone says it's a "totally" bad feature, otherwise it would've been removed by now
11:16:44 <peter1139> LordAro, that code has too much thinking in fixed-buffer C instead of modern C++ :)
11:33:56 <peter1139> It's also all wrong.
11:36:07 <locosage> hm, Zig seems to be stealing the spotlight from Rust lately....
11:54:49 <peter1139> Bah, std::deque doesn't have constexpr initialisation :(
11:58:08 <_glx_> Your untested fix is actually wrong, 3rd arg of DialogBox is parent window handle
11:58:35 <peter1139> Ah, I assumed it was user data.
11:59:31 <_glx_> User data is the static pointer 🙂
11:59:44 <peter1139> That isn't user data :p
12:01:55 <_glx_> Oh we could use DialogBoxParam
12:02:16 <_glx_> It has an extra LParam for dialog init
12:02:56 <peter1139> Something like that.
12:03:39 <peter1139> Not sure if the reference stuff is correct either, if not it's simple enough to just make it a regular pointer.
12:04:23 <peter1139> Mountains as objects eh?
12:06:01 <peter1139> "And here is Ben Nevis, about the size of 4 double-decker buses"
12:10:41 <_glx_> Hmm LParam is 32 bit IIRC so it won't be usable
12:11:37 <peter1139> The other uses of LParam disagree.
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12:12:01 <michi_cc> _glx_: LPARAM is LONG_PTR and this pointer-sized.
12:17:54 <_glx_> Kind of things hard to check from phone, MS doc is not super clear about underlying types
12:18:39 <peter1139> It's all legacy shit. `void *` please ;D
12:19:04 <peter1139> I guess I can fire up mingw.
12:20:07 <LordAro> "LPARAM is a typedef for LONG_PTR which is a long (signed 32-bit) on win32 and __int64 (signed 64-bit) on x86_64."
12:24:02 <peter1139> I'm actually compiling and testing it now ;)
12:24:10 <peter1139> I may even be able to just make a PR for it.
12:25:53 <peter1139> Might not ride tonight, woke up with leg cramps overnight after MTBing, both times this week :S
12:26:48 <LordAro> i've had a cold for the last week, and i decided my knees needed some rest anyway
12:27:21 <LordAro> on an unrelated note, i'm going to a bike shop in 30 minutes to look at shoe/pedal fitting
12:28:43 <peter1139> [123/125] Linking CXX executable openttd_test.exe
12:28:55 <peter1139> This stage takes several minutes...
12:29:34 <LordAro> you should install `mold`, which does help a bit
12:39:43 <peter1139> mold: supported targets: elf32-i386 elf64-x86-64 elf32-littlearm elf64-littleaarch64 elf32-littleriscv elf32-bigriscv elf64-littleriscv elf64-bigriscv elf32-powerpc elf64-powerpc elf64-powerpc elf64-powerpcle elf64-s390 elf64-sparc elf32-m68k elf32-sh-linux elf64-alpha
12:41:21 <peter1139> Hmm, how do I make it not use the console...?
12:44:10 <peter1139> `wine openttd.exe --help` just outputs in the console instead of popping up a window.
12:46:50 <LordAro> peter1139: well you need to tell gcc to use it too
12:46:54 <LordAro> dunno how you do that with cmake, mind
12:47:02 <LordAro> i think the CI already does though
12:47:14 <LordAro> peter1139: needs an -mwindows or something somewhere
12:48:38 <peter1139> Remember I'm running on Linux, using mingw to cross-compile for Windows. My version of mold does not have Windows targets.
12:48:56 <LordAro> mold doesn't do windows
12:54:27 <peter1139> Isn't there some flag to set in the exe to disable a console?
12:56:05 <peter1139> "You can get it by just installing Visual Studio"
13:04:45 <peter1139> How does the CI get it...
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13:07:12 <audigex> I feel like it might be `-my` in Wine? Doesn't that tell it to *become* the process rather than just output it?
13:07:44 <audigex> I've used Wine like twice ever though so don't take that as gospel
13:08:52 <audigex> Or `exec wine "path/to/file/openttd.exe"` maybe?
13:09:34 <locosage> winetricks is pretty useful for installing frameworks and stuff
13:10:15 <audigex> Alternately just buy a Steam Deck, push the exe to Steam as the new mainline version, and download it from there to execute via Proton. Simple workaround
13:10:35 <peter1139> I wonder what audigex is actually talking about...
13:11:09 <audigex> Except the last part which was just a joke
13:12:14 <audigex> I've run into it before with Wine and was trying to remember which param/command it was that fixed it, there was a way to force it to launch the GUI but it was a long time ago now
13:12:14 <audigex> Although I may have misunderstood what you were saying entirely
14:28:28 <peter1139> Winetricks finally finished installing half-a-dozen .net 4.x instances.
14:28:45 <peter1139> Only for the vc tools installer to throw and exception and just be a blank white window.
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14:36:40 <alfagamma0007> Wine is just plain useless
14:36:54 <alfagamma0007> Better get a virtual machine
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15:44:03 <peter1139> lol missed the end of the TDF again due to a work call...
15:45:04 <peter1139> So many adverts on this shitty platform :(
15:50:03 <LordAro> peter1139: so i've been to the bike shop
15:50:09 <LordAro> i've spent lots of money on new shoes and speedplays
15:50:28 <peter1139> And the ITVX player doesn't allow you to rewind :(
15:50:51 <LordAro> i've also been told my feet are weird, my shoes are wrong, my saddle is wrong, my cranks are too long, and my saddle is up to 4cm too high
15:51:09 <peter1139> Oof. You did a bike-fit then?
15:52:59 <LordAro> oh, and i'm currently arguing with the head of development about adding `.vscode` to the project .gitignore
16:07:54 <peter1139> Technically they should not be there.
16:08:40 <LordAro> i have lost that argument though
16:08:48 <LordAro> well, the phrase "executive decision" was used, anyway
16:09:02 <LordAro> it's a bit irritating when git itself has .vscode in its gitignore
16:17:11 <audigex> The real question is whether .gitignore should be in .gitignore
16:17:11 <audigex> (My argument is that .gitignore should probably be committed and contain user config and people's "tinkering with" type folders, while .git/info/exclude should be used to ignore anything that you want to ignore but not advertise its existence)
16:21:02 <_jgr_> People who use `git commit -a` tend to also be people who don't configure/know about local .git/info/exclude
16:22:04 <_jgr_> So if it's not in .gitignore you'll likely have to clean it up out of the repo sooner or later
16:24:52 <LordAro> i didn't actually know about .git/info/exclude until i read the man page
16:25:21 <LordAro> i can see it being useful, usually i just manually ignore all my "scratchpad" files
16:31:35 <_jgr_> `.DS_Info` and friends used to be a consistent low level annoyance on that front
16:32:41 <_jgr_> In theory stuff like that should go in the global git config on Apple machines, but in practice that doesn't work
16:41:35 <truebrain> I love my global git ignore 😛 just too bad it is not just creating a single file to enable that 😦
16:41:47 <truebrain> QoL and git? Naaaahhhh 😛
16:47:21 <LordAro> they're getting there
16:47:26 <LordAro> git restore & switch are things now
16:48:36 <peter1139> ~/.gitignore works though...
16:50:13 <LordAro> "I don't disagree that people shouldn't understand their tools, but for quite a few people they don't think to discover as it just doesn't occur to them."
16:50:32 <LordAro> i was like, i'm not sure this is the crushing blow you think it is
16:50:45 <LordAro> also the triple negative
16:51:10 <peter1139> Well, I was signed up for a ride at 5.30 and didn't. Oops.
16:51:30 <LordAro> bet they waited for you and everything
17:06:40 <peter1139> Nah, strict if you're not there we're going on time rule.
18:06:43 <wensimehrp> merni: idk he might have just been emotional or smth
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18:13:56 <goddess_ishtar> locosage: Just call it "scale factor for cargo ageing"
18:14:45 <goddess_ishtar> that's all you need for a UI
18:16:30 <goddess_ishtar> in the tooltip, say something like "Control the rate at which cargo payment decreases over time. Values above 100% will make longer routes less profitable."
18:16:57 <goddess_ishtar> "Set to 0 to disable cargo ageing entirely."
18:57:36 <talltyler> That’s basically what I suggested, I think
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