IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-06-27
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04:44:34 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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07:03:40 <goddess_ishtar> 3 am snack, I should think
07:03:46 <goddess_ishtar> that'd be tasty
07:07:42 <peter1139> Urgh. Why does #include <filesystem> mess up Windows (x86) :(
07:09:01 <pickpacket> peter1139: x86 or x86_64?
07:09:18 <pickpacket> I mean the answer is still "because winblows" but still
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07:20:49 <johnfranklin[d]> I had coffee and tea but still... aargh... zzz...
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07:26:03 <peter1139> In Windows-land it is x86 or x64.
07:27:08 <peter1139> 1065/2254 monsters. Getting there slowly.
08:08:52 <peter1139> I isolated the issue with moving filesystem to stdafx.
08:09:43 <peter1139> Take out #include <filesystem> and it'll build without errors.
08:25:53 <peter1139> Is LC-Zorg suggesting that ALL uses of the small font should be removed...?
08:28:05 <peter1139> Hmm, I can't remember what is in ether7 on router 3, but it flapped this morning.
08:29:17 <andriydohniak> peter1139: I think he is saying he liked the option to change the font in there, and he can't set the font only there anymore, because changing the normal font will change it everywhere
08:30:20 <peter1139> Okay, port is not labelled, must be the last thing I put up there which was a baby NAS. Odd.
08:31:12 <truebrain> LordAro: I like that the package is "Engine for running OpenTTD"
08:31:18 <truebrain> so it is not actually OpenTTD, just the engine 😛
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08:32:08 <peter1139> Is that everything merged into some giant repository for some reason?
08:33:02 <LordAro> it's quite common for distros to do things like that
08:35:02 <peter1139> Stupid MSVC x86. I could cast the return value of GB() to uint8_t, or I could make that a template of GB().
08:35:17 <peter1139> But, uh, seems overkill and messy.
08:37:31 <LordAro> the fact that it's triggered by #including filesystem is really weird
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08:39:25 <truebrain> I just wonder how they found that PR to fix their clang issue 😄
08:39:40 <truebrain> but the description bothers me most 😛
08:39:49 <truebrain> (not of the commit; of OpenTTD)
08:40:12 <LordAro> because peter linked it in their issue :p
08:46:58 <peter1139> I didn't link it to say "Oh just use this"
08:56:14 <pickpacket> I have decided exactly what I want a company shares system in the core game to do
08:56:27 <pickpacket> it's very simple: not exist
08:58:03 <LordAro> pickpacket: i have some excellent news
08:58:53 <pickpacket> As I always say: "the best work is the work that doesn't need to be done. The second best is the one that someone else does."
09:03:46 <peter1139> What made you come to that conclusion?
09:05:27 <pickpacket> peter1139: everyone has opinions about what you should be able to do with it, but nobody can explain *why* it should exist in terms of what it adds to gameplay
09:05:48 <pickpacket> "you should be able to invest in other companies" okay, but *why*?
09:06:20 <pickpacket> kuhnovic: except there's no money in it if there's no exploit
09:07:13 <kuhnovic> I guess it can be changed to a system where money can be made without having to resort to exploits
09:07:20 <kuhnovic> However it turns out it's not that easy
09:07:22 <goddess_ishtar> peter1139: It's easier to not do anything
09:07:31 <kuhnovic> goddess_ishtar: I am very good at this
09:09:00 <pickpacket> kuhnovic: not in a meaningful way. The only company worth investing in is one that starts out more successful than yours, but if you can even afford that you're better off putting that money towards your own infrastructure unless you want to fall further behind
09:09:42 <pickpacket> if you're moderately successful yourself money is inconsequential after a few years
09:09:54 <pickpacket> if you're not you can't afford it
09:11:26 <kuhnovic> pickpacket: This does depend on whether you play with inflation and running cost enabled though
09:11:50 <pickpacket> basically what I see everyone asking for is a stock market simulator that is either disconnected from the transport part of it all (and include endless possibilities for exploits) or quite useless number shuffling that doesn't add anything other than a few buttons that nobody has an incentive to click
09:13:47 <kuhnovic> It makes it harder to earn enough money. Not impossible, but definitely a bit more of a challenge.
09:14:58 <kuhnovic> Personally i'm more of a "I just want to build lots of trains" kind of guy and I turn all of that stuff off. But there are lots of different kind of players and play styles that have to be taken into account.
09:17:30 <pickpacket> I won't care anymore unless someone shows me a proposal that shows actual incentives to use it though 🤪
09:18:17 <kuhnovic> I haven't missed the stock market feature for a second either. But clearly some people do.
09:22:26 <pickpacket> some people miss what they wished it would have been
09:23:06 <pickpacket> almost everyone had it disabled when it was there because it could be massively exploited.
09:31:21 <kuhnovic> If somebody can come up with a working system that makes sense and isn't exploitable, then I'd love to see the PR. Until that time, I can live without it 🙂
09:31:34 <kuhnovic> (and probably after that too)
09:37:19 <andriydohniak> > everyone has opinions about what you should be able to do with it, but nobody can explain why it should exist in terms of what it adds to gameplay
09:37:19 <andriydohniak> When somebody in multiplayer wants to exit the game, he can sell his control shares, and the company with most of his shares will just gain everything of that company, and that future possibility of selling off the company is what will drive the stock price up
09:38:39 <andriydohniak> And it shouldn't be to hard to implement, instead of controling multiple companies, it just becomes part of your company, so no speciall code needed, just code to convert everything owned by one company to be owned by another
09:38:54 <peter1139> Mostly you just exit the game and don't care, because you're no longer in the game.
09:40:03 <pickpacket> if you're leaving there's no gameplay incentive to sell anything. What are you going to do with the money?
09:40:06 <andriydohniak> Another idea is that you can create and sell companies
09:40:25 <peter1139> Shares don't work because company profits always stay with the company.
09:40:27 <andriydohniak> but only one at a time
09:40:31 <pickpacket> what would be the incentive to do it, though?
09:41:37 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: Imagine your company has a robust rail network, but there is a part that it can't reach because another company made their small network there, you buy the small company for more price then the actuall componets are worth, because it's good for you
09:42:00 <andriydohniak> and the owner of the small company is gaining a tonn of money, which he should be able to use when creating a new company
09:42:14 <andriydohniak> so the CEO has his own wallet
09:42:27 <peter1139> Look at the situation with privatised water companies (LOL) in the UK. All the profit they make goes to the share holders, it's not sat around in a company bank account, nor is it spent on improving the infrastructure.
09:42:50 <pickpacket> if the smaller company is profitable there's no reason to start over with a new company later in the game when the map is more crowded
09:43:35 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: but what if the map is really big?
09:43:57 <pickpacket> then the larger company doesn't need that tiny piece of the map
09:44:19 <peter1139> Capitalism is based around extend and extinguish at this point.
09:44:26 <andriydohniak> Ok, but what if the smaller companies value is not just the land, but how well built their infrastracture there
09:45:01 <andriydohniak> but it would be worth more to the big company, because they don't need to do anything, just hook it up to their network
09:45:10 <pickpacket> well, again though. If the smaller company is profitable there's no incentive to sell. If it isn't it's only a matter of time before it becomes purchasable or disappears off the mp
09:46:13 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: but if the CEO has his own wallet, there is an incentive to sell, the CEO can just start a new company doing something else somewhere else on the map
09:46:37 <andriydohniak> so the CEO is payed for well built infrastructure (time)
09:47:27 <pickpacket> I don't see the incentive, really. Starting over later in the game is usually a surefire way of being way behind. In my experience the situation you're describing never occurs
09:47:47 <peter1139> pickpacket, you already made the right choice ;-)
09:48:18 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: but you don't start with 0, you start with a big wallet
09:48:32 <pickpacket> the larger player could just start cargo sniping and terraform around the smaller company's infrastructure instead, totally crowding the smaller company out and driving it to bankruptcy and reducing competition
09:48:53 <andriydohniak> but what if bying is faster and easier?
09:49:17 <pickpacket> andriydohniak: money schmoney ;) You can only build so quickly, and your chances of becoming profitable are slimmer later in the game than early on
09:49:30 <_glx_> What about the small company is controlled by more than one player ?
09:49:57 <andriydohniak> _glx_: The CEO can send money to players however he wants to, so social element?
09:50:04 <pickpacket> if selling gives any sort of advantage then the bigger company wouldn't want to buy
09:50:31 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: It gives the advantage to both
09:50:44 <andriydohniak> Like a big company buying a startup
09:51:15 <andriydohniak> But I am just exploring ideas, and I am not an economist, so mb the system I am describing is flawed
09:51:49 <_glx_> Money is link to companies, not players anyway
09:52:06 <andriydohniak> But also when the big company buys the small company, everybody who owned small companies shares will get payed proportionally
09:52:13 <andriydohniak> _glx_: for now*
09:52:32 <pickpacket> In the real world scenario the ceo of the startup would take the money and go do something else instead of trying to start a new company to compete with the now larger company 😉
09:53:05 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: there are planty of CEOs that start 1 startup after another
09:53:26 <andriydohniak> but again this is just a thought experiment, and even at this stage it is pretty complicated
09:53:29 <pickpacket> Yeah, but usually not in the same sector
09:54:07 <pickpacket> If you sell your social network to facebook you don't set off creating a new social network 😄
09:54:28 <pickpacket> I love the thought experiments
09:54:34 <andriydohniak> pickpacket: well we are not trying to fully emulate normal economy, and because on the big map resources are kinda free, the "competition" is not that big, the competition is jut a graph
10:00:19 <peter1139> pickpacket, Twitter and Bluesky debunks that one...
10:01:44 <andriydohniak> peter1139: What I am saying that in real life the competition is real, nobody wants 200 social networks, but in OpenTTD on big maps the resources are kinda free, so no real competition except on profit graphs
10:13:16 <andythenorth> This is experimental
10:13:20 <ahyangyi> I just don't think monetary "incentive" in the game are of much use, at least not as an excuse to add stocks back.
10:13:55 <ahyangyi> But I think I can be convinced for smoother access control
10:14:21 <andythenorth> Adding industry-owning businesses is intended for transport goals, not stocks, but I’m considering a share/acquisition element
10:14:47 <ahyangyi> Yeah, goals are fine
10:15:08 <peter1139> Buy shares in vehicle manufacturers?
10:15:13 <ahyangyi> the incentives of finishing a goal is, well, the feeling that you finished a goal
10:15:31 <ahyangyi> which is surprisingly good
10:15:40 <goddess_ishtar> peter1139: get all the good stuff early and monopolise it for yourself
10:16:16 <goddess_ishtar> be the monopoly the SEC has nightmares about
10:16:50 <peter1139> Oops, I did `.First()` instead of `.FirstOrDefault()`
10:16:59 <peter1139> Professional C# developers eh...
10:17:19 <andythenorth> Industries could have profitability, but I’m not sure I want to figure that out 😛
10:18:15 <peter1139> You then need to define a value for cargoes (not the same as value for transporting cargo, despite what some people think...)
10:18:50 <andythenorth> Yeah that could be done
10:18:59 <andythenorth> Including regional spot prices
10:19:08 <andythenorth> With supply and demand
10:19:15 <andythenorth> GS can do all that
10:19:20 <peter1139> Do it. It'll definitely be worth it. Honest.
10:19:38 <ahyangyi> Speaking of industries, I have the (probably bad) idea to make industries of the same kind slightly different to each other
10:19:42 <andythenorth> You sound Genuine. And Convincing.
10:20:37 <ahyangyi> for example, one particular Factory wants burgers, and can produce slightly more with an adequate input of burgers
10:20:50 <andythenorth> I’d need to store a timeseries of spot price per cargo per tile, to make sure I use up enough RAM
10:21:40 <goddess_ishtar> peter1139: You're not producing or selling the cargo, so in the standard OpenTTD context what it actually costs us irrelevant
10:22:24 <peter1139> It doesn't cost us anything. The context is industry profitability, where it is relevant.
10:22:49 <peter1139> I thought my comment about "not the same as..." was quite clear...
10:25:08 <andythenorth> I suspect it would need a real programmer 😛
10:25:32 <andythenorth> I’d just keep everything in a Squirrel table…
10:26:44 <peter1139> With a fancy save/load routine because it's obvious how that works.
10:27:25 <andythenorth> All objects in Squirrel are a table, was my insider joke
10:28:40 <andriydohniak> Been there done that!
10:29:23 <andythenorth> Not sure why we can’t put Squirrel class instances in the save, when everything is just a table entry in Squirrel, maybe it’s about hashes or something
10:39:21 <peter1139> Can AIs run client-side, connected to a server?
10:46:18 <andythenorth> Isn’t it all on the host?
10:47:12 <peter1139> There's a reason it's not done :)
11:17:33 <talltyler> Re: shares, I think an ability to voluntarily merge player companies (probably a “offer to merge” from the company to be absorbed) would be the most useful feature, and let players do as they please using the existing chat and “send money” functions
11:47:51 <pickpacket> talltyler: voluntarily merge could be useful, yeah
11:48:27 <pickpacket> not sure I would consider it useful enough to add it to the codebase, though
11:55:27 <peter1139> Oh the joy of tax rounding :S
12:01:51 <_glx_> talltyler: Doesn't JGRPP have something similar?
12:04:09 <_jgr_> It does, but it's really meant for use by server administrators, when you have cooperative games with infrastructure sharing. It's probably not that useful otherwise.
12:19:06 <talltyler> In vanilla we’d want a button on the company window “Propose merger” that if clicked, would ask only that company if they want to buy your company. It would need a cooldown timer so bad actors can’t spam people with a popup message.
12:20:31 <talltyler> (If you get spammed, you don’t want to click yes because then that bad actor is part of your company!)
13:00:11 <pickpacket> talltyler: oh! I assumed that the merge would use the same logic as the bankruptcy merge. That the player owning the company is shut out from it and the company is taken over
13:00:30 <pickpacket> errrrh. I just realised I don't actually know for sure that's how it works
13:35:48 <peter1139> Ooh, do I need a CRS520-4XS-16XQ-RM?
13:36:06 <LordAro> when has "need" ever factored into these things?
13:36:15 <peter1139> 2 x 10gbit ports for "management"
13:44:15 <pickpacket> Is that a spaceship, a computer, an industrial machine, or...?
13:44:58 <pickpacket> Just what I thought
13:45:55 <peter1139> It's a CLJ. Cheap Latvian Junk.
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13:58:28 <peter1139> Shimano 160mm Centre Lock disc rotor, £11.63.
13:58:32 <peter1139> That is "definitely" Shimano...
13:59:07 <pickpacket> Made of the finest Chinesium
13:59:54 <peter1139> Although from an actual bike shop (not Amazon) it's only £9.99, so what do I know...
14:07:08 <peter1139> This is probably only impressive to small set of people ;)
14:08:49 <talltyler> pickpacket: Actually, yeah, it’s probably better to not automatically move the player who has sold out. If they want to and the owner allows, they can just join afterwards.
14:54:48 <j0anjosep> j0anjosep: Hi! Some days ago I asked about the use of a bit of m8 instead of using one of m7. Road waypoints use a bit that is free for all tile types and don't use the same bit that road tiles use for snow awareness. I think it would be better to align those bits (their meaning is the same), use the one in m7 and keep the upper bits of m8 free for any potential use in the future.
14:55:28 <j0anjosep> Wouldn't this be better or I am missing something?
15:02:51 <_jgr_> It seems to me to be a non-issue, but you could PR a change to that effect
15:05:07 <_jgr_> Is "potential use in the future" code for somethign that you're working on?
15:08:41 <johnfranklin[d]> Why is Joker’s Patch Pack named Joker? Although it is also J-initial, it sound differently with JoanJosep 😛
15:10:09 <_jgr_> Joker and J0anJosep are not the same individuals
15:10:44 <johnfranklin[d]> Strange, I always thought they are the same person
15:19:21 <peter1139> "They all look the same to me."
15:25:27 <j0anjosep> _jgr_: Not right now, but with some previous experience when there were fewer bits available, it was very convenient having them aligned, the ones used and the ones that were free. Even now when there are more free bits, I think that for future development it could be better to keep them aligned. But I won't create any PR for doing so unless other devs agree with that.
15:34:28 <talltyler> Your proposed change makes sense to me
15:35:00 <peter1139> Change for change sake though?
15:35:29 <LordAro> could probably justify it with cache locality
15:50:37 <j0anjosep> LordAro: I don't think so in this case.
15:55:25 <talltyler> Change for the sake of tidying up after a recent PR, perhaps
15:56:39 <_glx_> but means savegame bump
15:57:02 <peter1139> Should've been caught in review, if it's a problem.
15:57:28 <_glx_> for me it can be moved when it's really needed
16:00:23 <talltyler> I suppose it is equally easy to move later
17:31:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: which is newer, Windows XP or Vista?
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19:23:00 <skipthefox> talltyler: For a second i thought you said pickpocket
19:37:33 <goddess_ishtar> for a second I thought that was a pyramid of Minecraft TNT
19:39:52 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it FIRS?
19:52:12 <peter1139> Massive framerate drops here :)
20:10:32 <_glx_> surprising, the screen looks empty 🙂
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20:23:17 <_jgr_> TallTylerviaGitHub: *sigh* pesky scenario editor strikes again, I'll fix this later
20:31:42 <talltyler> Oh, is it roadstops related?
20:32:10 <_jgr_> Yes, it's because various buttons are missing in the scenario editor
20:32:18 <_jgr_> Seemingly I forgot to include the fix for that in the PR
20:34:06 <talltyler> Hmm, roadstops or waypoints?
20:34:51 <talltyler> Gotcha. I will update the issue.
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21:04:35 <ratcircus> peter1138: Excuse the ping. What's WAD's this?
21:08:26 <ratcircus> Mmm, Myolden. Cheers.
21:11:20 <talltyler> (Had to check you didn’t copy and paste my typo)
21:15:41 <_jgr_> Clearly I made my rum and tonic too strong 😛
21:23:44 <talltyler> Thanks for the quick fix. Enjoy your drink. 😄
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