IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-05-30
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00:02:26 <Tirili> I have the feeling that graphics in youtube videos about openttd look better than mine. I'm using abase at a resolution of 1680 x 1050. It looks like this:
00:03:18 <Tirili> Am I wrong or is it a little too pixelated?
00:04:24 <Tirili> Antialiasing is activated.
00:05:42 <audigex> Are you a YouTube partner or whatever it is? People with the status get a higher encoding bitrate that makes a big difference for OpenTTD due to the masses of solid-ish green
00:05:42 <audigex> 1680x1050 is probably always going to look wrong on most screens since OpenTTD (and any pixel art) looks awful with non-integer scaling and YouTube will be expecting to output at 1920x1080 most of the time
00:11:05 <jfs> how about instead of a heightmap and various attached data, instead add an alternate loading mode for regular OTTD scenario files: choose what parts of the scenario to keep, and what parts to clear out and generate anew when the game is started.
00:11:05 <jfs> so you get a list of checkboxes like:
00:11:05 <jfs> * Use scenario NewGRFs [followed by a Change button that is active when not selected]
00:11:05 <jfs> * Use landscape items [keeps original tree and rock locations, maybe NewObjects too if NewGRF is unmodified]
00:11:07 <jfs> * Use town names and locations [if disabled, towns are generated as in a new game]
00:11:07 <jfs> * Use town sizes [keeps original town roads and buildings if NewGRF is unmodified, otherwise clears out all roads and town buildings and rebuilds them to approximately the same size]
00:11:09 <jfs> * Use industry locations [keeps original industries if NewGRF is unmodified, otherwise uses the existing industry locations to spawn random new industries]
00:11:09 <jfs> * Use scenario AI player settings [followed by a Change button]
00:11:11 <jfs> * Use scenario difficulty settings [otherwise the new game difficulty settings are used]
00:15:13 <Tirili> I'm not a youtuber. I just want to have nice graphics when I play openttd.
00:15:28 <reldred> jfs: I think the appeal to what 2TallTyler is doing is scenarios can be made to begin with using publicly available GIS data
00:15:48 <reldred> Tirili: Abase/zbase are not the best looking graphics to begin with…
00:22:26 <Tirili> It looks like this now:
00:25:46 <Tirili> Even when I go to windowed-mode an set the window size to 1024 x 768, it looks pixelated.
00:26:20 <Tirili> Is integer scaling something like 4:3?
00:26:30 <Tirili> m:n, where m and n are integers?
00:28:26 <jfs> No, the game doesn't do uneven scaling ever. Things can be pixel doubled if there isn't a sprite in the needed resolution (scale) but if you make the game screen wider or taller you just see more or less of the playing field.
00:32:15 <Tirili> So, which settings do I need to have best graphics on a 1680 x 1050 screen?
00:34:15 <jfs> "best" is such a loaded word 🙂 personally I think the original TTD graphics are the best, and they were designed for 640x480 in what OpenTTD designates as "medium zoom"
00:34:49 <jfs> anyway, try out different basesets, since graphics quality is just as much about the art style as it is about the technical aspects
00:35:11 <jfs> what OS are you on, windows or mac or something else?
00:37:15 <Tirili> Slackware 14.2 with Plasma 5
00:37:40 <jfs> check the "Highest resolution sprites to use" setting, if it's not 4x then even high-res sets like aBase and zBase won't be able to use their full resolution
00:39:55 <jfs> and try altering the Interface Scale in Game Options
00:40:50 <Tirili> I thought I had checked these basic settings 1000 times.
00:41:17 <Tirili> Sorry for bothering you with my stupidity!
00:41:28 <Tirili> Now, the game looks much more fun.
00:44:54 <jfs> well I suppose that setting can be understood the opposite way of the intention, that setting it to a higher value scales graphics down by that amount
00:45:32 <Tirili> That was not the problem :D
01:27:33 <talltyler> jfs: I like that idea, but think it should coexist with importing town data 🙂
01:28:30 <talltyler> The goal of my PR is to enable town locations to be matched to the heightmap more easily in an external program than in OpenTTD. Read the documentation linked in the PR for a suggested workflow.
01:49:41 <jfs> I guess it actually all segues into reworking the "New game" flow further, to basically 3 tabs: generate world (with worldgen options), play scenario (with scenario customisation), load heightmap (with towndata + anything else options)
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02:18:39 <yiffgirl> should i be rebasing regularly or just let them sit for a while?
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02:33:03 <jfs> if there's a PR you're actively working on, and github says it can't merge automatically, then rebase
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05:29:50 <peter1138> audigex: 1680x1050 will look perfectly if that's the native resolution, as is common on older LCD monitors.
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06:24:07 <tabytac> jfs: there are a few good ways i can think of to merge those options nicely, but almost all would impact the first time player's experience and make it needlessly complicated which shouldnt be overlooked right now
06:24:40 <tabytac> but i do agree a unified system to pick and choose scenario settings and such would work very well
06:26:23 <peter1138> For reference, "New Game" in the original TTD gave you a list of scenarios, and the first item in the list is create a new random game. However there are no other new game options either, so it goes straight into the random map.
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06:49:58 <tabytac> ahh yes, i only remember the TT which just when you click new games just takes you straight to a new game haha
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07:04:21 <peter1138> Of course, terrain type and water level were difficulty options, and there are no other terrain parameters.
07:04:31 <peter1138> (The ones we have are pretty poor, to be honest)
07:47:15 <peter1138> > The hosted runner encountered an error while running your job. (Error Type: Failure).
07:47:30 <LordAro> that is an annotation
07:50:41 <peter1138> Best not to mark as resolved if you're asking questions, resolved hides it because it's, er, resolved.
08:00:33 <silent_tempest> Is resolved not a per user thing?
08:02:11 <silent_tempest> I guess I have to many god damn review website all jumbled up in my head cause I've been using it like a checklist as things I've looked vs things I still need to get to... :/
08:06:01 <silent_tempest> Oh and github has been hiding some of them from me as outdated... Not sure what makes that happen
08:07:18 <LordAro> that means the underlying change is different from when the comment was originally made
08:07:23 <LordAro> i.e. the PR has been updated
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08:09:10 <silent_tempest> I swear I did a push to update the branch, then Peter added comments.
08:09:29 <LordAro> peter1138 reviewed the old version
08:09:39 <peter1138> I think I was mis-review?
08:09:54 <peter1138> However, I was also reviewing individual commits, and those commits are still present.
08:10:41 <silent_tempest> That's some unlucky timing I guess
08:11:00 <peter1138> Nah, I was going back and forth between review and work.
08:11:12 <peter1138> So it was quite a long time.
08:11:18 <silent_tempest> I *think* I have fixed most of these outdated comments already based on learning about the changes to the LoadFont code
08:12:21 <silent_tempest> I guess those ones I can actually mark as resolved...
08:12:36 <silent_tempest> I think I unresolved all of the comments that aren't truly resolved
08:13:16 <silent_tempest> I feel like I cannot be the first user on github to want to check off comments as I either get to the point where a change was done or a question was asked....
08:17:17 <peter1138> Unless you've force-pushed over it, it's not yet resolved on Github.
08:17:50 <LordAro> i generally go with emoji reactions
08:17:57 <LordAro> thumbs up or whatever
08:18:27 <silent_tempest> Right but it is resolved locally and will on github after the next push. You are waiting for the push to happen before coming back right?
08:19:40 <silent_tempest> Saying I don't use emojis is a lie but it's definitely a new behavior for me and I often forget they're an option... I can try that.
08:23:44 <silent_tempest> Are reviewers going to be annoyed with me adding like 👍 and adding/removing ❔ ?
08:24:23 <silent_tempest> Okay github has way fewer options for emjois...
08:25:18 <silent_tempest> Should I let Peter resolve the comments then?
08:25:49 <LordAro> depends on the comment, imo
08:26:00 <LordAro> if it's a definitive "this needs to be done" and you know you've done it, resolve it yourself
08:26:36 <LordAro> if it's more of a question/answer type comment, then best leave it for the "questioner" to resolve if they're satisfied with the answer
08:27:56 <silent_tempest> This shit would be so much easier if I had a perfect memory...
08:28:46 <silent_tempest> Some of these changes I definitely don't remember making.... Obviously I did but sometimes the why just doens't come back to me
08:33:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: do we have a parameter for 'rabbitholes'?
08:37:29 <silent_tempest> I'm getting tired. Guess I'll finish this later. peter1138 I wouldn't look until a push happens
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08:56:42 <jfs> tabytac: My general opinion is that the main menu has gotten way too many buttons and could do well with a shaving
08:59:14 <peter1138> They are "long time players want to tweak these things" settings, not "new players want to play a game" settings.
08:59:51 <peter1138> Why is rivers an option?
09:00:17 <peter1138> Why, when I select 'Many', do I get none?
09:01:01 <peter1138> (Becuase some of the other settings prevent it from working...)
09:02:28 <jfs> "advanced landscape generator settings" as a fold out panel, and then a bunch of recommended presets?
09:02:28 <jfs> (also hide 4k sizes until you sign a waiver)
09:04:02 <peter1138> Sizes could be something like "small, medium, large", unless you pop out the extended panel.
09:06:34 <jfs> And bring back difficulty presets (with the disclaimer that newgrf might upset the balance)
09:07:34 <peter1138> Extreme measures...
09:09:29 <jfs> Would it be feasible to scan bananas for files not using translation tables? If you didn't already
09:09:50 <peter1138> I would have to mirror it all.
09:09:55 <jfs> Though that still leaves all the things that aren't on bananas
09:10:20 <peter1138> These buses all carry alcohol with FIRS 5 🙂
09:11:25 <peter1138> Pretty sure #12646 will solve all this for the common case of NewGRFs assuming default cargoes.
09:11:44 <peter1138> I think it only upsets NewGRFs trying to use custom cargoes without using labels, which was always problematic.
09:17:42 <peter1138> Looks more reasonable for that vehicle.
09:20:39 <peter1138> That's still quite a combination, though.
09:22:06 <peter1138> Though it's similar with default cargo too, so I guess by design.
09:22:43 <andythenorth> For maps, sometimes I wonder if just shipping 100 heightmap pngs would get a better result for many games
09:22:53 <andythenorth> pick one at random
09:23:23 <peter1138> There are times I feel the original generator is nicer than TGP.
09:23:39 <andythenorth> it's less annoying
09:23:44 <andythenorth> it's more consistent
09:23:48 <peter1138> TGP aims for some kind of realism, but it doesn't hit the mark.
09:23:54 <andythenorth> and original can actually make Tropic maps
09:24:10 <andythenorth> I 'fixed' that locally a long time by just using Temperate generator
09:24:16 <andythenorth> but we don't like my kind of 'fix' 🙂
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09:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> GPT map generator? :p
10:11:49 <andythenorth> GPT currently crashes Chrome constantly
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10:53:31 <ahyangyi> perhaps generators could be a type of add-on as well
10:53:59 <ahyangyi> in Squirrel, of course
11:00:55 <peter1138> Stop using Chrome. Simple.
11:12:55 <ahyangyi> probably just disable some random setting
11:13:03 <ahyangyi> like hardware acceleration
11:13:21 <ahyangyi> the problem is that there are about 100000 settings in chrome, and who knows which one?
11:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having this weird issue in firefox where av1 videos aren't playing properly... i previously "fixed" this by enforcing x264 videos, but that stopped working...
11:22:16 <ahyangyi> For a while my Chromium was flaky, which was fixed by disable some GPU-accelerated video decoding
11:22:24 <ahyangyi> But that probably doesn't apply to ChatGPT 😛
11:31:32 <peter1138> Salad, as in cheese & pickle sandwich?
12:07:22 <peter1138> I mean, who even uses 1x scale?
12:08:49 <merni> Someone who has a 640x480 monitor maybe
12:09:18 <merni> or generally low DPI I guess
12:13:29 <peter1138> Everyone assumes my questions are literal :p
12:13:52 <peter1138> Or at least answers as if the are.
12:16:10 <merni> Tone does not carry in text
12:16:38 <merni> And it's etter to assume a rhetorical question is literal than the reverse :p
12:16:57 <peter1138> "I mean, who even" should be a clue.
12:17:36 <peter1138> Why am I looking at synthesizers on eBay?
12:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, in a community that solely consists of fringe use cases, you can only criticise a fringe use case if you mean it ironically :)
12:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> also, my freight trains are completely gridlocked...
12:21:12 <peter1138> Do we need to teach you about path signals? 😄
12:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> can you teach path signals to cities:skylines? :p
12:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> conventional wisdom is that to solve traffic problems you need to add roundabouts
12:25:11 <peter1138> Ah, the problem is creating roads induces demand.
12:25:26 <peter1138> So get rid of your roads and you will not have gridlock.
12:34:45 <peter1138> Oh eBay sellers... Photograph your small item, on the floor, with a bare toe showing, Sure...
12:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> toe is for scale... or for weird attraction...
12:48:45 <LordAro> I mean, who even asks rhetorical questions?
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13:05:35 <peter1138> Hmm, 60% chance of rain at 6pm, probably means the evening ride is off...
13:34:58 <peter1138> Jeux sans frontières
13:36:30 <_glx_> this month of may is one of the wettest
13:52:12 <merni> it's one of the hottest here
13:52:23 <merni> but I'm thankful I'm not in Delhi enjoying 50 degrees
14:16:16 <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder how many GRFs assume temperate cargo types...
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15:12:25 <merni> Is that better or worse than a GRF disabling itself on non-temperate climates :P
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15:48:20 <peter1138> Ah of course. We fall back to the `?` symbol if a glyph doesn't exist.
15:48:37 <peter1138> But layouter itself does no such thing and uses something else.
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15:50:19 <peter1138> Glyph 0 seems to be the key, and we special case around it.
15:52:11 <peter1138> Lol, and the whole "don't duplicate" thing is completely pointless, because key is always 0 here.
16:05:52 <peter1138> This solves the question I ask Zephyris a while ago 🙂
16:05:59 <peter1138> Or answers, at least.
16:43:09 <andythenorth> was it done yet?
16:53:09 <peter1138> Not a question mark.
16:54:49 <peter1138> Using the font's missing glyph glyph instead of ?
16:55:02 <peter1138> The width makes sense now.
16:57:40 <peter1138> It worked fine back then.
16:57:51 <peter1138> Because we didn't use any standard layouters.
16:58:05 <peter1138> The width of the sprite was the only thing that mattered.
16:58:25 <peter1138> But now the layout has already layouted with the size of the fallback glyph 0.
16:58:53 <peter1138> And I don't think substituting the missing glyph with ? is all that important.
16:59:58 <_glx_> it's missing, and I think anybody is used to the square box
17:01:49 <peter1138> This is what OpenTTD Sans does. The missing glyph much narrower than the ? so it overlaps.
17:18:07 <andythenorth> I had a large breakfast
17:21:23 <LordAro> gitlab upgrades take forever
17:21:35 <LordAro> apt has to unpack thousands of ruby files
17:25:35 <wensimehrp> OpenTTD Sans Nerd Fonr?
17:26:12 <wensimehrp> Sounds like a good idea, so I can include additional icons in strings
17:46:40 <peter1138> It is not a vector 🙂
17:48:13 <peter1138> I found out why my audio interface was not appearing in the pipewire graph.
17:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't plugged in?
17:49:02 <peter1138> I could blame alsa, or I could blame pulseaudio, or lennart poettering...
17:49:12 <peter1138> But no, it was just scrolled off to the side of the window.
17:49:22 <peter1138> Way too much time to figure that out.
18:15:41 <yiffgirl> peter1138: > poettering
18:15:41 <yiffgirl> is pipewire part of systemd??
18:16:44 <peter1138> He was the main developer of PulseAudio.
18:17:09 <andythenorth> to store squirrel objects (class instances) in the savegame, I have to write serialise / deserialise methods?
18:17:19 <andythenorth> (think savegame is table slots only)
18:17:36 <Rubidium> peter1138: let me guess, you also got a branch to remove the "Simple"SpriteAllocator, right?
18:21:26 <peter1138> The usage in opengl.cpp is a bit weird.
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18:26:44 <yeah_its_gloria> peter1138: maybe they should've called it alas instead of alsa
18:37:52 <peter1138> std::move() into an indexer does look weird.
18:40:06 <_jgr_> It's been a thing since C++11, it's not that new or exotic any more
18:40:18 <peter1138> I'm not saying it's wrong. It just looks weird 🙂
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20:04:17 <andriydohniak> It's a very small commit, and I hope to merge it after testing here for a bit
20:06:00 <peter1138> Very first change is broken. 25 + 8 = 33. Won't fit in a 32 bit integer.
20:08:14 <peter1138> You haven't touched CompanyMask, which is 16 bits.
20:09:58 <peter1138> You haven't changed any of the map accessors which store owners, which store 4-bit values into the map.
20:11:37 <peter1138> I like the last change. Removed the assert, but it still stores the company index in the remaining 4 bits.
20:12:58 <peter1138> I also recommend using a different branch instead committing to master. Doing that makes updating your branch and the whole fork much harder.
20:13:58 <peter1138> There is an existing fork that goes much further to adding support for more companies, though it's probably a bit out of date now.
20:20:30 <andriydohniak> Just tested, ~30 companies network desync and disconnect
20:20:37 <andriydohniak> Thanks for the feedback
20:21:01 <andriydohniak> I still don't fully understand all the data structures here, so this is very valuable
20:24:40 <andriydohniak> Also do you know how would I compile openttd without optimizations on linux, mb speed up the compilation a bit
20:26:13 <peter1138> Set cmake to compile the Debug variant.
20:26:20 <peter1138> This is actually the default.
20:26:59 <andriydohniak> Ok so it just takes me 3 min to compile on debug
20:27:28 <andriydohniak> Can you send me the other fork that is outdated, Is that the SpiffingBrit one?
20:28:13 <peter1138> I think that's the one. I don't have a link.
20:32:55 <locosage> that's the one used in the video
20:33:19 <locosage> iirc someone else tried to do some work on it recently but not sure if that went anywhere
20:34:05 <andriydohniak> So far my thing is managable, buuuttt I still don't know all the potential and real problems
20:35:45 <ahym> netcode on a codebase you've barely worked with sounds insurmountable
20:36:03 <ahym> If you pull that off kudos to you
20:36:28 <locosage> openttd netcode is very simple, just don't change game state without commands
20:36:36 <peter1138> The desync is not really a problem with the network code.
20:36:50 <peter1138> It's because the patch is massively incomplete.
20:43:36 <andriydohniak> peter1138: I have seen that there is a limitation on a udp packet size, and that it's impossible to add more companies, because of that limit, does such thing exist, and how far/close is the current code is to that limit
20:44:36 <peter1138> The main game protocol is TCP so I don't think there's too much of a problem there.
20:51:02 <andythenorth> after a day of trying, GPT has written me a GS file
20:53:18 <Rubidium> well... I don't think the UDP packets are your biggest problem. That's practically only used for local discovery, and then you'd just have to limit the number of NewGRFs appropriately as you'd need about 6 bytes for every two orders of magnitude increase of companies
20:54:26 <Rubidium> you'll get into bigger problems if you also want it to play nice with the game coordinator, as then you'd need to amend the infrastructure that OpenTTD hosts to provide the server listing
20:56:12 <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether doubling the size of the map just to have more companies is an easy sell
20:57:54 <peter1138> Sometimes reviewing commit by commit makes the process more straightforward... which of course is why it was 3 commits...
21:00:02 <_jgr_> andriydohniak: I'd suggest having a look at the landscape.html and landscape_grid.html files in the docs/ directory
21:01:16 <_jgr_> The map array as described in here is likely to be your main problem
21:02:47 <andriydohniak> As far as I see, the owner company is not stored there
21:05:12 <peter1138> Anywhere where it says "owner" is where it is stored.
21:14:10 <andriydohniak> New commit, help needed
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21:17:21 <andriydohniak> andriydohniak: Still on the main branch
21:17:38 <andythenorth> GPT would be much faster at generating GS
21:17:51 <andythenorth> but it's suggestions keep failing because it can't understand Squirrel syntax
21:17:52 <andriydohniak> andriydohniak: this one
21:17:57 <andythenorth> which is the exact problem I have
21:18:03 <andythenorth> Squirrel is so frigging stupid 🙂
21:18:39 <andythenorth> has anyone ever tried declaring a table in Squirrel 2.2?
21:18:47 <andythenorth> it Just Does Not Work
21:18:57 <andythenorth> not in any sensible way
21:19:14 <andythenorth> GPT has given up and declared an array of pairs
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21:26:02 <andriydohniak> peter1138: If you don't mind, can you take a look at the new commit?
21:31:47 <peter1138> Can't argue with that comment 😛
21:31:56 <andythenorth> I quit for tonight, Squirrel 2.2 is so stupid
21:32:05 <andythenorth> everything has to be tables, but tables are just broken
21:33:04 <andythenorth> can't have strings as keys
21:33:16 <andythenorth> and the syntax for creation changes constantly depending on context
21:33:29 <andythenorth> between `<-`, `=` or `:`
21:33:39 <andythenorth> tinpot hobby language
21:33:43 <peter1138> If you are still going with 240 companies, you will need to change anything stored in the map from 4 bits to 8 bits.
21:34:01 <peter1138> And CompanyMask will need to be able to store 240 bits. Bumping from 16 to 32 won't help.
21:34:31 <andythenorth> but of course to access tables we have to use strings
21:34:41 <andythenorth> unless we use . notation alternately
21:34:50 <andythenorth> all of which is totally opaque
21:35:37 <_jgr_> andythenorth: Well yes. Real serious OpenTTD mods use NFO, which is both robust and consistent
21:35:40 <andythenorth> oh and squirrel searches for things in the root table if they're not found in context, which is a clown shoes foot gun
21:35:54 <peter1138> Addons in .ini format?
21:35:54 <andythenorth> nfo docs are sooo much better than squirrel
21:37:27 <andriydohniak> peter1138: 240 bits? Does each company have it's own bit?
21:37:41 <andriydohniak> How did it work with 15 and 4 bits then
21:37:55 <peter1138> Two separate things.
21:38:03 <peter1138> CompanyMask is 16 bits which is enough for 15 companies.
21:38:19 <peter1138> And the map array is 4 or 5 bits, which is enough to store 0-14 + extras.
21:39:07 <andriydohniak> I will check what did the Spiffing brit do here
21:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause> probably ignore half the things, and just let it break
21:43:28 <andriydohniak> Ok, Spiffing fork used a bitset, gona copy it
21:43:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: tbf, squirrel3 docs are much better
21:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't watch a lot of that, but all the statistic stuff seemed to have been broken
21:53:17 <peter1138> It was not complete for sure 🙂
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