IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-03-21
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04:40:59 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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08:34:44 <LordAro> peter1138: that's too much
08:36:10 <peter1138> Yeah. Pretty sure it's a bad reading, but the graph doesn't otherwise look obviously wrong 😮
08:37:16 <LordAro> that was my thought too
08:37:56 <LordAro> (the second half, at least)
08:57:01 <peter1138> That didn't come out right :S
08:57:49 <peter1138> Very build failure 😄
08:59:12 <peter1138> Oops, CONDVECTOR was in another commit whcih I rebased from and didn't compile locally, lol
09:01:21 <peter1138> Uh, #12345 is... a draft. Damn it.
09:13:37 <kuhnovic> Hehe. The idea is nice though, definitely more thorough than my attempt.
09:18:47 <peter1138> For ships the saveload change is quite nice, simplified because the storage format for deque and vector is the same.
09:19:05 <peter1138> RoadVehicle is trickier though.
09:21:36 <peter1138> Hmm, using a struct instead of std::pair would also avoid .first/.second ambiguity. Fortunately the types are compatible so that's not a big problem.
09:30:28 <kuhnovic> I initially went for changing it to a single queue, until I ran into the savegame stuff. That part scared me.
09:30:42 <kuhnovic> As in: not enough experience with it yet
09:31:57 <peter1138> Being the original author of it helps with being critical of it 😄
09:32:43 <kuhnovic> peter1138: I'm always torn between using a pair or a dedicated struct. I think in this case a struct is better, simply because the PF is already complicated enough, and having something with proper names might help avoid some confusion.
09:33:05 <peter1138> Okay. I can change that.
09:34:24 <peter1138> I think RV's use of erase from the beginning could be improved too. Potentially by just not including things that shouldn't be included in the first place.
09:37:49 <peter1138> Hmm, not convinced that is correct either.
10:04:47 <kuhnovic> It looks like you're always taking the first element from the RV path anyway, so I guess you can also reverse the path like you did for the ships. I'm looking at the PR on my phone so forgive me if I missed something, it's not the easiest way to review code 😛
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11:01:11 <xarick> RailwAI still manages to crash trains
11:01:54 <xarick> it's the only AI that does it, as far as I know
11:47:53 <peter1138> kuhnovic: that "special case" I added which isn't really documented seems very odd...
11:49:31 <peter1138> Seems like it might be something to do with trying to pathfind to the current tile.
11:50:10 <kuhnovic> Good that you find your own additions odd 😉
11:50:16 <peter1138> But with no explanation as to why that means it needs to remove the end of the cache.
11:51:11 <peter1138> It would make more sense if it was pop_front instead of pop_back
11:51:38 <kuhnovic> And a little search through the git history provides no clues?
11:51:51 <peter1138> No, it was there when I added it.
11:52:06 <peter1138> Maybe ships had it...
11:53:55 <peter1138> Checking the PR reviews 🙂
11:54:07 <kuhnovic> I'm afraid a lot of things have been built with workarounds for the problem fixed by #12217
11:55:27 <kuhnovic> I recently found some logic in the find-rail-depot-cmd that dealt with this specific case. I should have cleaned it up right away but I was in the middle of something else.
11:56:27 <peter1138> Yeah, the ship path cache had the same call.
11:56:40 <peter1138> It doesn't now, afaik.
11:56:58 <peter1138> I'll YOLO and remove it 😄
11:57:08 <peter1138> The other one that JGR added later makes sense.
11:58:46 <kuhnovic> FYI: I'm about to go on holidays, so don't expect too much feedback from me. But I will be keeping half an eye on discord/github 😁
12:07:28 <peter1138> I cannot trigger this case.
12:07:40 <peter1138> I think it could only have applied to ships anyway.
12:17:31 <xarick> bought this display last year
12:17:43 <peter1138> It's practically obsolete then.
12:28:17 <locosage> I'm so used to having multiple monitors I bought a portable one for my laptop
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12:42:27 <pickpacket> any idea if it's visible somewhere?
12:43:48 <_glx_> Opensfx release workflow is annoying, it runs on forks too
12:50:32 <pickpacket> peter1138: that's pretty cool
13:37:59 <xarick> there are no more pdb files?
13:46:09 <xarick> I don't know what to do with 12347
13:46:38 <kuhnovic> peter1138: Ask Xarick if you can get his 70K ship save, that might trigger something 😉
13:47:17 <peter1138> I have that but this is an RV condition
13:47:48 <xarick> wow steam page has no vertical scrollbar
13:50:07 <LordAro> (curl vs libcurl, etc)
13:50:10 <LordAro> xarick: looks fine to me
13:50:43 <LordAro> it's not a site you can visit
13:50:53 <LordAro> only MSVC knows how to visit
13:54:54 <xarick> the dump isn't too helpful
13:55:46 <peter1138> And "curl with the OS" is indeed not the same as a usable library component 🙂
13:56:38 <LordAro> (and also we do (technically) still support versions of Windows older than 2018 :D )
13:57:38 <peter1138> LordAro, that last comment though, about "mods" deleting posts...
13:57:55 <peter1138> Pretty sure none of us moderates the Steam comments...
13:58:16 <LordAro> but yeah, they seem to be having... troubles
13:59:31 <xarick> I can't navigate on steam
13:59:42 <xarick> for some reason they removed scrollbars
13:59:54 <xarick> they must think I'm on a phone or something
14:00:24 <LordAro> though the scrollbar appears just fine for me
14:02:44 <peter1138> If you're in Steam itself, yeah, the browser is trash in there.
14:05:20 <peter1138> > Oh, OpenTTD is awesome for mods and multiplayer. But, yeah, if you just want to play solo in the base game... the original is kind of better.
14:06:46 <peter1138> No, original as in Dosbox + TTD.
14:07:56 <peter1138> Basically we ruined it, right? Maybe they're all CS...
14:09:40 <talltyler> Someone is deleting posts. reldred told the guy to put the crack pipe down and now that comment has disappeared. Maybe Steam moderates its own comments?
14:10:35 <xarick> openttd going steam was a mistake
14:10:56 <peter1138> We don't actually pay attention to the comments on there.
14:11:06 <LordAro> can always rely on xarick for a balanced and nuanced opinion
14:12:30 <xarick> now someone invisible is moderating your content
14:14:32 <merni> Are steam comments content now?
14:15:01 <merni> Moreover "our" (OpenTTD's) content?
14:15:32 <xarick> you're getting the blame for something you didn't do, like removing comments..
14:15:50 <merni> Ignorant people exist everywhere
14:16:14 <merni> Before openttd was on steam the devs were probably being blamed for tt-forums decisions
14:24:25 <peter1138> And all those posts about "devs" "refusing" to implement things 🙂
14:25:53 <kamnet> LordAro: Looks like someone named Leo is deleting the posts. I don't know who that is since I haven't done any moderation on Steam in forever. Maybe truebrain knows? But from what I can see the deleted posts were back-and-forth bickering between two users
14:30:32 <_jgr_> Someone silently moderating it sounds like good news to me
14:31:15 <kamnet> Looks like Leo might be a Valve employee or bot
14:32:45 <locosage> original does feel more like a complete game
14:32:50 <locosage> openttd is kind of all over the place
14:34:11 <peter1138> But "OpenTTD should be the same as TTD" is a bit of a weird take.
14:42:02 <emperorjake> I can't understand why anyone would want to go back to the original, without all the QoL features
14:44:21 <peter1138> Some of it is just "well don't use that feature then"
14:44:48 <peter1138> Build on slopes. Who wants to turn that off?
14:45:04 <kale91> people getting irrationally attached to legacy features that are right behind a setting anyway? crazy
14:49:20 <peter1138> The heuristic is pretty... simple. As such it doesn't actually have to be anything to do with the video driver.
14:49:55 <xarick> oh I see, I just start multiple openttds at about the same time, some of them show this message, some don't
14:53:02 <LordAro> just staggering starting them a bit more would be fine
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14:53:46 <belajalilija> locosage: i think it is just the case of games that constantly get updates never feel complete to the user
14:54:18 <peter1138> And if they don't get updates they consider it abandoned.
14:54:31 <belajalilija> but certain games done need them
14:55:21 <peter1138> All my fault. Ruined the game with cargo icons.
14:56:25 <belajalilija> like, gta iv, atomic heart, bioshock, COD 2 all feel like complete games, but war thunder, openttd, minecraft, etc dont, i think it is because you can look back on something and think "how did we ever live without that?" and at the back of your mind you know an update will come that will give you that feeling again
14:57:49 <xarick> currently 15 OpenTTDs open
14:58:05 <xarick> let's see if I can still play Path of Exile without slowdowns
14:58:06 <LordAro> was minecraft the first game with "constant updates" ?
14:58:23 <LordAro> i guess not, but games got a lot more "final" when they were distributed via CD
14:58:40 <LordAro> the internet ruined everything
14:58:55 <kamnet> peter1138: If that's how they feel, then they can download OpenTTD 1.0 and the original graphics and sound and be happy.
14:59:02 <peter1138> Live For Speed started life in 2003, and is still being developed.
14:59:08 <peter1138> I think even OpenTTD 1.0 is too diverged.
14:59:32 <LordAro> someone in that thread referenced 0.4.7
14:59:39 <LordAro> which isn't even the newest of the 0.4.x series :D
15:03:16 <belajalilija> LordAro: i think the idea that things were more final is more due to the fact that updates didnt really happen, gta iv was supposed to have a rural area iirc, vice city was meant to have the florida everglades, locomotion was meant to have japanese stuff, but it all just never happened, i think there's advantages and disadvantages to the culture of games we have now
15:03:43 <belajalilija> i think i saw this threat you are all talking about, or a similar one
15:03:56 <peter1138> I did link to it earlier.
15:04:04 <belajalilija> i mean a few days ago
15:05:00 <LordAro> it was a lot harder to justify updates when they have to be distributed via CD expansion packs ...or dial-up
15:06:34 <belajalilija> i never experienced that world
15:07:03 <LordAro> when all you've got to do is make a new 3D model to add new content (I am massively simplifying) and push it out over the well established distribution network, the cost of doing so is a lot lower
15:07:05 <belajalilija> i was born in 1997 so i only really got the tail end of it when dialup was pretty much dead
15:07:36 <truebrain> kamnet: Steam has automoderation, where Steam also keeps an eye on things
15:08:00 <LordAro> i'm only a couple years older, but all I had was a PentiumIII & dial-up until about ~2008 :p
15:08:34 <peter1138> Eh, we never had updates when games came on floppy disks, or cassette tape.
15:08:53 <LordAro> "insert disk 5 of eleventy billion"
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15:18:49 <audigex> We had a computer before we had internet. Windows 3.1, couldn't even guess what the processor was
15:18:49 <audigex> Second was Windows ME (end then changed to 98 by a repair shop when I messed up the install) and 56k dialup. Celeron II if I recall, and ended up with a GeForce 6200LE after the integrated graphics died. This is where I met Transport Tycoon
15:18:49 <audigex> Third computer was a Pentium 4 3.06GHz, and that's around the time we got 0.5Mbps broadband.... not even a router, just a USB broadband modem. Which was fine, nothing else in the house could use the internet
15:52:26 <kamnet> My first computer in 1993 was an 8088 system built in the heaviest case I've ever seen in my life, wrought steel inside finish and it had the audacity of having a carrying handle, an RLL hard drive, dual full-height 5.25" floppy drives, and a green monochrome monitor. Thus I named it Godzilla. I then acquired an 80286 system with an EGA display, and was thus named Thunderzilla. In 1995 I saved up
15:52:26 <kamnet> money and bought a bare-bones 486 system, 8MB RAM for $200. I had also acquired a large capacity HDD (probably under 200 MB), a half-height 5.25" drive, a 3.5" floppy, and an old but very usable US Robotics 14.4 kbs dial up modem, an upgrade over my internal 1200 baud modem. I don't even remember what sound card it had, but I was quite enjoying all the dial-up BBSes in my area, as well as telnet-
15:58:33 <peter1138> 1993 was very late for an 8088 system.
15:59:26 <peter1138> And a 286 later even more so.
15:59:32 <peter1138> We had a 386SX in 1990.
16:03:57 <peter1138> Hmm, my local builds are faster than the nightly builds on Steam.
16:04:20 <peter1138> This makes performance comparisons a bit annoying as I can't just use a ready built master 😄
16:06:06 <peter1138> I guess I could just have a separate clean git repo.
16:17:01 <peter1138> Nice, I just built 0.3.6. Had to tweak the source slightly...
16:17:27 <peter1138> 3.2s to compile from clean.
16:19:16 <peter1138> (And yes, it is still the same intro game :D)
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16:55:25 <peter1138> Presumably GetIfValid() handles the Station vs Waypoint case, but it's hidden by template magic. Do we need more C-style code? 😉
16:58:25 <xarick> i couldn't get the debug pointing to there
17:00:35 <_glx_> yeah waypoint is not a valid station, GetIfValid() handles that
17:01:05 <_glx_> hmm could it be an oilrig ?
17:01:23 <xarick> i couldn't load the savegame either
17:06:25 <_glx_> oh strange I don't have newstats.grf
17:14:18 <_glx_> (I knew that from the grf name, but needed to use grfcrawler to find the correct version
17:14:58 <_glx_> and of course the savegame doesn't crash
17:15:09 <peter1138> It's funny that after all these years, it's still one of the best station sets.
17:23:13 <_glx_> nice I can get _current_company content but it's wrong
17:33:48 <peter1138> What does that mean?
17:40:51 <_glx_> when I'm in AI::GameLoop frame, VS tells me _current_company is 0, but that can't be correct since company 0 is not an AI
17:41:33 <_glx_> I tried adding a test GS to the save (to list all stations coverage), and it doesn't crash
17:43:04 <xarick> then it's probably oil rig
18:16:36 <merni> peter1138: Well for most of all those years there was no NML support for stations, so not surprising that few people took up the challenge of using NFO
18:17:10 <merni> Also DBSet is still pretty nice despite its age
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19:34:04 <michi_cc> peter1138: I wouldn't be surprised if NewStations anad ISR are the only sets actually using all the fancy stuff the newstations specs allow. 🙂
19:45:02 <andythenorth> I substantially failed to understand stations 😛
19:45:05 <andythenorth> they seem faceted
19:45:11 <andythenorth> industries are....simple 🙂
19:47:44 <peter1138> Flat Industry Variants?
19:53:09 <andythenorth> Didn’t you do those already?
20:44:32 <truebrain> lol, not following FHS, and complaining 😛
20:45:35 <peter1138> Installing things into /opt is kinda common.
20:45:42 <peter1138> Not something I like to do.
20:45:51 <truebrain> and our binaries are compiled for FHS usage
20:47:04 <truebrain> well, tbh, not even sure if we compile `/usr/share` in the generic linux 😛
20:48:14 <truebrain> `Option Install FHS - OFF`
20:49:03 <truebrain> `Detecting Global Data directory - /usr/local/share/games/openttd`
20:49:09 <truebrain> so there are things kinda wrong, but .. yeah 😛
20:51:20 <truebrain> it is so funny, we use so many ways to try to find the language folder
20:51:25 <truebrain> still, people find ways to break it 🙂
20:51:34 <truebrain> starting it from `/opt/.../openttd` will work fine, for example
20:51:50 <truebrain> but when manipulating `PATH`, we lose the ability to detect where we actually are located 🙂
21:02:45 <truebrain> ghehe, yeah, OpenTTD uses `argv[0]` to try to figure out the location of the executable 😄 So with `PATH` that really fails 🙂
21:03:25 <truebrain> I guess one could read `/proc/self/exe` to find the path in those cases
21:04:40 <peter1138> > - Fix: Do not modify argv[0] [FS#6575] (r27886)
21:04:40 <peter1138> Sounds interesting 😉
21:05:17 <truebrain> that does sound horrible, yes 😄
21:05:22 <peter1138> `/proc/self/exe` needs symlink magic, right?
21:05:30 <truebrain> it is a symlink to the executable
21:05:34 <truebrain> it is very Linux specific
21:05:43 <peter1138> e.g. special-casing for ... yeah, that.
21:05:45 <truebrain> not sure it is actually worth it, tbh .. it is such a niche case, to use PATH for this ..
21:06:10 <truebrain> adding such a specific path to your PATH feels weird already
21:09:42 <peter1138> `std::filesystem::canonical("/proc/self/exe");` is not that much code, but definitely a special case.
21:10:21 <truebrain> the only thing I do not know, is how MacOS reacts to it 🙂
21:10:34 <truebrain> so should it be with or without APPLE? 😛
21:11:01 <truebrain> a similar issue exists on Windows, but I doubt anyone is crazy enough to modify the PATH on Windows for this
21:11:09 <peter1138> Apple has `_NSGetExecutablePath()`
21:11:12 <truebrain> it is even weirder to do it on Windows 😛
21:11:16 <peter1138> Which looks very... private.
21:11:33 <peter1138> I would suggest not doing it.
21:11:57 <peter1138> /opt/openttd-path/openttd```
21:11:57 <peter1138> is a very simple solution...
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21:12:01 <reldred> I got pinged, have I been causing trouble again?
21:12:26 <truebrain> peter1138: that, or I suggested an alias 🙂 But yeah.
21:13:30 <peter1138> And if you haven't been causing trouble, you should've been...
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21:27:22 <peter1138> So... anything else we can delete from the Steam forum? 🙂
21:27:49 <truebrain> just for context .. the conversation was so "heated" that Steam's moderation team was like: we don't understand context, but boy, we are going to hide these comments
21:29:31 <andythenorth> my grf docs repo is so stupid
21:29:53 <andythenorth> 2.36GB for src, and the same for the dist
21:30:40 <reldred> truebrain: I never even saw the reply, that might even be the first steam forum post I’ve made in 10+ years
21:30:49 <truebrain> you were the last reply 😉
21:32:45 <reldred> And that was enough for steam moderators? Huh.
21:32:59 <truebrain> your reply also wasn't all that nice; so I can see that they flagged the conversation 🙂
21:35:01 <peter1138> Nah, we're just silencing critics!
21:35:47 <andythenorth> I got silenced once
21:35:57 <truebrain> I can silence you now? 😛
21:36:08 <andythenorth> you kicked me from irc a few times 😛
21:36:14 <andythenorth> and I got forum banned
21:36:19 <andythenorth> and wiki warned for vandalism
21:36:59 <peter1138> You can always tell the troublesome regulars by the number of pages about them in the moderation section...
21:41:36 <reldred> How big is my file? 😂
21:42:04 <truebrain> we needed to increase the Dropbox storage size
21:57:57 <peter1138> Still trying to repro #12348.
21:59:20 <andythenorth> did we miss 12345?
21:59:31 <peter1138> yes, there's a gap.
21:59:34 <truebrain> is that your new pronoun? "we"?
22:01:39 <peter1138> Think it might've been an unlikely timing coincidence.
22:01:42 <andythenorth> also 'your' should be 'our'
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22:27:49 <peter1138> Nothing in 40 years.
22:55:48 <peter1138> I tried making deleted stations not disppear, and still no hits 😒
22:56:01 <peter1138> (Although the deleted stations usually end up getting reused eventually...)
23:59:19 <_glx_> yeah I fail to see the path to trigger it
continue to next day ⏵
