IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-12-24
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00:00:23 <reldred> people don't write bug reports, they just write two+ page essays disagreeing with your entire premise for doing something.
00:33:52 <_glx_> ah yes we have a new andy 🙂
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00:40:15 <reldred> talltyler: I've been pondering that actually, the newrocks patch in JGRPP allows selecting different rock graphics based on whether the tile is rainforest or not but otherwise there's no distinction.
00:40:59 <reldred> except for the valid tree types
00:41:08 <talltyler> Let’s fix this one in vanilla though 😉
00:41:40 <talltyler> Scenario Editor is very confusing because you have to plant rainforest trees to create rainforest tiles…that is a separate issue though 😄
00:42:28 <reldred> Tile transitions would need a few sprites to say the least, because you can transition from desert straight to rainforest and also regular tropic to rainforest.
00:42:34 <emperorjake> We could go one further and allow rainforest tiles to have different ground sprites
00:42:46 <reldred> That's what I was assuming yeah
00:42:54 <reldred> and what I was getting at with tile requirements
00:43:31 <emperorjake> That would make tropical the best climate, hands down
00:43:43 <emperorjake> No reason to play any other climate
00:43:44 <reldred> I mean it already is 😎
00:47:23 <reldred> Tropic and arctic were always my favorites. Let's get rid of temperate and reuse their tiles and trees for the other climates.
00:47:33 <reldred> and get rid of toyland and nick their id's
00:50:42 <emperorjake> I never play on temperate anymore
00:51:17 <fairyflossy> Speaking of climates, I wonder how feasible a setting to override GRFs disabling stuff by climate would be. It's still disappointing that the French Narrow Gauge set disables itself in Tropical.
00:52:04 <fairyflossy> It's probably easier said than done, I imagine, there's probably cases where overriding it would break things
00:52:09 <reldred> I mean with OpenGFX2+ and base set settings you could pretty much just make the four selection icons just select a different set of base graphics settings and potentially even whole newgrf's and recover the id's for other purposes.
00:57:44 <_jgr_> fairyflossy: It'd likely be more pragmatic to just edit the GRF, either by asking the author or doing it yourself
01:00:02 <talltyler> Woof. That’s all the issues cleaned up. kuhnovic’s new ship pathfinder will close at least two or three more once it’s finished and merged. 😄
01:04:10 <emperorjake> Climate restrictions in GRFs should be deprecated. Only NO_CLIMATE is useful for articulated parts and such
01:10:25 <_jgr_> The current climate is a GRF global variable
01:13:26 <_jgr_> You could lie to GRFs on an individual basis on what the value is to get round such issues, but it'd be a UI/configuration hassle
01:13:44 <_jgr_> Simpler to just not use uncooperative GRFs
01:14:22 <reldred> And it may set off another OTL style grf author dummy spit
01:18:01 <reldred> Are your inlaws that bad talltyler ? 😛
01:18:39 <talltyler> They are fine, we’re just hanging out watching (American) football and I’m understimulated
01:18:59 <reldred> I drive down to my parents tomorrow, though my dad has landed himself in hospital with pneumonia
01:19:12 <reldred> not that he talks to me much anyways but oh well.
01:20:01 <talltyler> Tomorrow I have an 11-hour train ride to visit my family, and I brought my laptop so I can update my NotDaylength PRs with TrueBrain’s review items 🙂
01:23:01 <talltyler> What’s Christmas like down under? Summer BBQ?
01:23:37 <reldred> but yeah bbq's the norm for most
01:24:06 <emperorjake> It's been pleasantly rainy the past few days where I am
01:25:43 <reldred> Yeah it's only 20C here atm
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02:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> as opposed to here, where it's unpleasantly raining :p
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05:04:18 <alfagamma7> It's a nice weather here today
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08:57:11 <reldred> anyone here using vcpkg with vs code on windows to build? I never had any problems getting it to work on VS2022, but vs code is doing my head in.
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09:55:11 <andythenorth> Rau still trying to gatekeep reddit I see
09:55:48 <andythenorth> A) anti-social B) pointless, like trying to hold back the see
09:56:40 <locosage> hm, I need some place to put a clickable list of industries...
09:56:52 <locosage> how good of an idea is to put them in company goals
09:57:03 <locosage> and hope they don't overflow to mess the order xD
09:58:57 <alfagamma7> andythenorth: Who's Rau?
09:59:16 <alfagamma7> Also Christmas and New Year's day on Monday
10:01:29 <emperorjake> It's a public holiday so we get the day off anyway
10:01:46 <emperorjake> Rau is that guy who keeps insisting people use presigbals
10:02:33 <emperorjake> In Australia if a public holiday falls on a weekend we get an extra day off anyway
10:03:43 <reldred> monday and the tuesday
10:03:57 <reldred> I'm back at work on wednesday
10:55:42 <merni> emperorjake: that would be so nice
11:59:32 <peter1138> Reddit drama? Surely not!
12:12:02 <peter1138> LordAro, such wind.
12:21:31 <peter1138[d]> Clickable list of industries... Like the industry list?
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12:37:01 <locosage> except I want only some of the industries and in certain order
12:37:38 <locosage> also separate list for each company
12:38:07 <locosage> with some non-industry entries
12:42:47 <peter1138[d]> Is that story book/goal list style stuff?
12:46:35 <locosage> it's just a log of received rewards
12:46:40 <locosage> industry is a type of reward
12:47:05 <locosage> thb even chat would work if there was a way to link location
12:48:13 <locosage> mostly just need last few industries
12:49:45 <peter1138> storybook can link to tiles, hmm.
12:49:55 <locosage> yeah, I just realized that
12:50:12 <locosage> was thinking of storybook buttons before but they're huge
12:50:23 <locosage> but linking elements themselves may be ok
12:50:24 <peter1138> Dunno, not really seen them :)
12:50:44 <locosage> anyway, I already did that with company goals so will do for now
12:51:01 <peter1138> But linking to towns / industries / vehicles etc rather than just by tile might be fairly simple addition?
12:52:02 <locosage> well, industries don't move so it's pretty much the same as location
12:52:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: Quite windy here
12:52:54 <locosage> but I was thinking of unifying linked object types when writing league tables, didn't get to it though
12:52:56 <peter1138> Yes, but if the game knows it's a meant to be a link to an industry it could display it differentl.y
12:52:58 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: Html for the UI obvs
12:53:33 <andythenorth> Just use a browser in wasm for all stats / charts / storybook stuff
12:54:05 <peter1138> Which game data does that have access to out of the box?
12:54:50 <peter1138> I didn't find any drama on Reddit, I guess I should stop looking.
12:57:18 <peter1138> - More Than 255 Active GRFs In A Game
12:59:08 <andythenorth> We just run a http server inside the client?
12:59:36 <andythenorth> Ooh we could multi-thread the display then?
13:00:30 <andythenorth> And we could optionally connect the browser to the server in MP, allowing custom servers like CM without patched clients?
13:00:44 <andythenorth> Leagues and lobbies and stuff
13:01:14 <peter1138> Send window widget layouts from server to client :p
13:01:27 <peter1138> Custom UI that still fits our widget system ;)
13:01:44 <andythenorth> I heard you like Bootstrap
13:01:52 <peter1138> Worst thing for UI.
13:02:04 <andythenorth> Except all the others 😛
13:02:11 <andythenorth> Just like democracy
13:04:03 <peter1138> - More Than 64 Road/Tram-type Slots (Or A Separate Menu For Eyecandy Roadoverlays)
13:11:08 <emperorjake> Objects that can be built over roads would negate the need for too many roadtypes
13:15:19 <talltyler> GRF authors do silly things
13:15:37 <peter1138> Object tiles are not road tiles.
13:15:39 <talltyler> Objects are incredibly misused too, like with overlapping sprites
13:16:19 <reldred> If the functionality they want doesn’t exist, they do what they can with what they have.
13:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a valid case for "road decoration" objects
13:17:22 <talltyler> Oh I’m not condemning them, but saying maybe it would benefit everyone if we gave them the proper tools
13:17:36 <talltyler> “We” being the proverbial “somebody”
13:17:53 <reldred> Road stops put an end to overlaps for the most part
13:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe also separate roadtypes from sidewalk types
13:18:24 <peter1138> Almost nobody is making road stop NewGRFs.
13:18:47 <peter1138> Pavements already are separate from road types.
13:19:09 <reldred> Fridaemon, Andy, I dabbled in it a while back before Fridaemon took it over
13:19:37 <reldred> I think Flogeza was working on some
13:21:09 <peter1138> Perhaps the content classifier doesn't pick up road-stops properly?
13:21:29 <emperorjake> There's a Korean roadstops GRF as well
13:21:39 <peter1138> That's the only one I'm aware of.
13:22:48 <peter1138> (That plus the other one which is JGRPP-only)
13:23:58 <emperorjake> Is there any reason Fridaemon's roadstops is still JGRPP-only although vanilla supports roadstops now?
13:24:32 <reldred> I probably need to show him how to swap between NML branches so he can compile a regular OpenTTD version
13:25:06 <_jgr_> The road stop GRFs that are output from my NML branch will work fine on vanilla
13:25:09 <peter1138> Hmm, there is another road stop set somewhere.
13:25:21 <reldred> He’s not super duper technical, a lot of newgrf authors aren’t.
13:25:32 <peter1138> But vanilla OpenTTD carefully doesn't tell me what NewGRF it is :D
13:25:38 <peter1138> Ah, sprite aligner might.
13:25:41 <emperorjake> JP+ suspended Monorails has custom roadstops too
13:26:05 <reldred> Andy’s new in progress NML chips has road stops too
13:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you had an explicit "sidewalk type" feature, you could expand it to more types
13:26:21 <peter1138> Is that not on bananas? That might explain it.
13:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and catch most of the things people use objects for
13:26:32 <emperorjake> so all Fridaemon needs to do is remove the version check?
13:26:41 <peter1138> pavement types are chosen by townzones, so...
13:26:45 <emperorjake> should be done ASAP if it's that simple
13:27:02 <_jgr_> emperorjake: Well, modify it to include OpenTTD 14.0 as well
13:27:42 <peter1138> Hmm, "jp+ suspended monorails" doesn't have the road-stops tag. Maybe that's not automatic or something.
13:29:05 <emperorjake> Wait, what if a roadstop GRF provides road waypoint graphics? That won't work in vanilla
13:29:32 <peter1138> It won't break though, they just won't be available to use.
13:29:34 <reldred> That’s just class WAYP, how are they being handled? Ignored gracefully?
13:30:12 <peter1138> Yes, they are all still loaded as normal, but the UI won't let you pick WAYP for roadstops.
13:31:13 <talltyler> We should upstream road waypoints, it should be pretty simple at this point
13:32:10 <reldred> Hmm, I’ll have to check in with Fridaemon about OpenTTD compatibility then, he did ask me to help him add snow awareness to his templates. Still sitting on my desktop 😔
13:39:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: “Nobody” did the docs yet, probably 🙂
13:42:18 <merni> also, 14.0 is not released... newgrfs that work only on nightly may not be very popular
13:42:27 <_jgr_> The docs were all there last time I checked
13:46:50 <_glx_> merni: and that doesn't help to find bugs
13:49:35 <xarick> which one requires less operations in squirrel? `"" + noise` vs `noise.tostring()`
13:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you're optimising on the correct level
14:01:12 <xarick> wow, 0 difference in number of ops for both
14:22:19 <talltyler> reldred: It would be wonderful if you could help with this 🙂
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14:32:03 <andythenorth> _jgr_: Did I do them and forgot? Or were there elves?
14:37:40 <_jgr_> I added the stuff which seemed to be missing
14:42:25 <andythenorth> I should update the spec status page, but I’m not goibg to edit wiki tables on my phone 🙂
14:50:46 <xarick> question: Given the goal of 65535 to reach for town_noise and a station limit of 64000, how many airports with noise 2 must I place before I can start placing airports with noise 1 to reach the goal?
14:51:13 <xarick> i'm bad at math, gonna try asking bing chat
14:54:42 <andythenorth> If bing is rebranded gpt, you are probably better at maths than that 😛
14:56:48 <xarick> I'm gonna assume it's correct
14:57:58 <johnfranklin> x airports with noise 2
14:57:58 <johnfranklin> 2x + 1*(64000-x) = 65535
14:57:58 <johnfranklin> 64000 + x = 65535
14:58:55 <peter1138> This will be a really fun AI :-)
15:01:29 <talltyler> I hope infrastructure maintenance is turned off or it’ll go bankrupt in a hurry
15:25:43 <xarick> alright, got the condition I was looking for
15:27:02 <xarick> `if (GSInfrastructure.GetInfrastructurePieceCount(_company, GSInfrastructure.INFRASTRUCTURE_AIRPORT) < (0xFFFF - 64000) / (GSController.GetSetting("min_noise_level_increase") - 1)) {
15:27:02 <xarick> /* Keep building big noise airports */
16:21:20 <peter1138> This'll be a long rebase.
16:21:27 <peter1138> Perhaps it's time for a rewrite :)
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16:59:04 <peter1138> Yeah. Commit one is being rewritten :D
17:14:07 <peter1138> Well, this is going badly :D
17:29:08 <_jgr_> talltyler: If there is wider interest I can look into turning it into a PR
17:33:26 <peter1138[d]> Accidentally invoked the CGA palette...
17:34:09 <merni> Can we have that as an option? :p
17:42:27 <peter1138> Yeah, memcpy a byte array into something that is no longer a byte is going to break. "Fortunately" C lets you do that anyway.
17:45:27 <peter1138> One of my previous rebases must have gone really bad because this commit contains a ton of stuff that was originally later in its own commit :o
17:48:23 <talltyler> _jgr_: Road waypoints are frequently requested by players, they are commonly used in the JGRPP multiplayer games I’m involved in, and it follows the pattern of rail and sea waypoints. Not sure what other developers think about them, but I would review and approve. 🙂
17:50:58 <peter1138> Ah std::variant fun :)
17:57:48 <talltyler> C’mon Amtrak WiFi, I want to push my commits 🫤
17:59:10 <_jgr_> talltyler: Similarly if there are other things which would be likely to be merged if I PRd them I can look into them in due course
18:06:42 <talltyler> - flag for road vehicle collision modes (elevated trams)
18:06:42 <talltyler> - bridges over stations
18:06:42 <talltyler> - shaded trees on hillsides
18:06:42 <talltyler> Possibly more, I don’t have my list on me. But obviously these are only my interests, not necessarily things other developers would go for.
18:07:12 <talltyler> I am very excited for the new timetable autoseparation PR in vanilla 😄
18:08:05 <_jgr_> I find that list a bit surprising, I wouldn't expect any of those to get in smoothly
18:11:43 <talltyler> That’s my personal wishlist, which I plan to eventually attempt to upstream. I am aiming for scratching my own itches, not argument-free PRs 😉
18:12:19 <_jgr_> The only obvious non-trivial one that I can think of might be two railtypes per tile for parallel tracks
18:12:36 <_jgr_> I can't imagine anyone complaining that that kills their preferred play-style
18:13:14 <peter1138> I even have my own patches for Bridges-over-Stations that I never progressed.
18:13:56 <peter1138> Oops, this commit is now spreading :/
18:21:20 <talltyler> Yes, two railtypes per tile has been requested before. It’s on my list somewhere.
18:21:20 <talltyler> I think Andy made an issue or two about it
18:25:16 <xarick> is it possible for a GS to open a Window for the player?
18:27:20 <xarick> I think I underestimated either the size of intercontinental airport or the map size
18:27:43 <xarick> 1024x1024 map not sizable enough
18:29:07 <peter1138> Helidepot with lots of noise.
18:29:23 <peter1138> Or rather, helistation.
18:29:55 <xarick> yeah, but i wanted to use official units
18:35:02 <peter1138> A NewGRF airport can make a 1x1 255 noise airport, so it's a valid (and easier) test.
18:35:51 <talltyler> j0anjosep: I see you typing 😉
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18:42:00 <talltyler> Okay, I’ll change the button 😦
18:42:06 <xarick> okay, maybe this is doable... I think I got the right parameters
18:42:15 <xarick> I'll show you a screenshot soon
18:45:32 <_glx_> xarick: yes and it can even highlight widgets in it
18:54:26 <xarick> it can check if a window is open, but not open it for me 😐
19:21:53 <peter1138> Hmm, this feels very out of order :)
19:35:01 <_glx_> Ah right, it makes sense for tutorial to show where to click to open a window, and wait for the player to actually open it
19:41:15 <xarick> 64000 stations and only 65027 noise
19:56:20 <peter1138> 255 noise helistations.
19:57:50 <xarick> let me do it the cool way
20:02:13 <xarick> oh, btw... documentation about multiple debug windows. Isn't it different now?
20:04:00 <peter1138> Windows numbers is basically... random.
20:04:19 <peter1138> Allocated incrementally but if you close one you are left with gaps.;
20:34:52 <xarick> nop! I can't do this this way
20:34:52 <xarick> ` if (GSController.GetSetting("review_settings")) {
20:34:52 <xarick> GSWindow.Highlight(GSWindow.WC_SCRIPT_DEBUG, 0, GSWindow.WID_SCRD_SETTINGS, GSWindow.TC_GOLD);
20:34:52 <xarick> GSController.Break("Please review the GS settings before continuing...");
20:35:26 <xarick> windows is not open until GSController.Break executes
20:37:15 <xarick> I need to provoke this window to popup on game start, to then highlight the Settings button
20:37:26 <xarick> can only be done with GSController.Break
20:47:23 <peter1138[d]> That's definitely wrong :p
21:18:01 <belajalilija> i dont wanna be *that* person
21:18:05 <belajalilija> but is this really happening?
21:18:23 <belajalilija> and if so, have you any idea when?
21:19:03 <peter1138[d]> Well, this is a 10 year old patch.
21:19:17 <belajalilija> ahh so its not coming to main?
21:20:00 <peter1138[d]> I'm just updating from 1 year old to 0 days old.
21:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 10 years is a pretty young patch :p
21:22:54 <locosage> how does it look with 8bpp blitter? xD
21:29:40 <peter1138> It just uses the original 16 colours in 8bpp mode.
21:33:24 <locosage> does it do 32bpp-to-8 if save with custom color is loaded?
21:33:57 <locosage> though I guess it can just write arbitrary colors into palette on cc slots...
21:34:56 <peter1138> No, my 32bpp-to-8bpp is a week or so old. This is 10 years old.
21:49:33 <peter1138> Right, now to dissect this into logical pieces.
21:50:20 <xarick> I was actually aiming for exactly 64000 airports though, but that's okay
21:50:21 <peter1138> Okay. Did it overflow?
21:50:51 <xarick> that's my next project
21:52:47 <xarick> place 4 towns in the corners, build airports circling the center, and once I get to a certain noise level, place a town inside the circle to transfer noise from the corner towns to the center town
22:10:46 <xarick> I need to tackle an immaginary town
22:12:16 <peter1138> Hmm, do default houses not have random colours?
22:13:46 <peter1138> The default 4 values for non-NewGRF houses is 0, i.e. COLOUR_BLUE.
22:18:04 <peter1138> Hmm, they do. Must be set somewhere else.
22:21:15 <peter1138> Ah, part of the tile layout instead.
22:24:02 <xarick> I can't use GSAirport.GetNoiseLevelIncrease nor GSAirport.GetNearestTown, because the town doesn't yet exist
22:26:12 <xarick> How am I gonna build my list of tiles having in mind an imaginary town
22:28:32 <xarick> Also, how much do I need to increase the towns in the 4 corners
22:28:51 <xarick> what map size will I need
22:32:53 <xarick> the corner towns must be sufficiently distant enough so that when any intercontinental airport is placed, they only get 1 noise, but this same airport must increase 2 or more noise on the immaginary town.
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23:17:11 <xarick> this is going to be very difficult to reproduce
23:18:20 <xarick> I must also keep track of these imaginary noises for the immaginary town
23:20:43 <xarick> there is a way... it's just me thinking how am I going to code all this
23:26:13 <xarick> this light blue is the space I'm going to need just to get the imaginary town to 65535 noise. A 1024x1024 map size is insuficient. A 2048x2048 should be sufficient. Need to check the distance from the corner to the blue borders
23:26:33 <xarick> that should tell me if 2048x2048 is enough
23:32:59 <Rubidium> talltyler: you're aware that #11341 (still) has a conflict?
23:46:02 <truebrain> And there is a severe lack of screenshot! 😛
23:46:31 <truebrain> Dropdown looks much better 🙂 I know you don't like it, but it is much more clear to the unaware user 🙂
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