IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-12-23
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00:02:23 <talltyler> Reviewing code on my phone is less than ideal 🙂
00:11:27 <peter1138> (Improvements to text strings welcome ;))
00:11:43 <peter1138> (Well, any improvement is welcome right.
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00:27:27 <rau117> PeterNviaGitHub: Maybe add possibility to use random colours for groups? Like ctrl+click on colour picker to add allowed-for-random colour
00:30:17 <emperorjake> My idea is similar except it has a dedicated randomise button instead of a hidden ctrl-feature
00:30:44 <emperorjake> And it would work for all livery selections, not just groups
00:52:37 <rau117> emperorjake: Is it possible to “control” the random in your variant? Is it just a random button that makes... random from all available colors, or can these colors also be selected?
00:52:37 <rau117> *Let's say, for the “coal” group I want only white and gray trains, and for the “iron ore” group – only pink and red ones.*
00:59:09 <emperorjake> Oh, so you want randomised colours for each vehicle in the group? That seems unnecessary and I'd prefer the ability to manually paint individual vehicles if we're going to get complex.
00:59:35 <emperorjake> My idea is much simpler to implement as it keeps the one colour per group approach.
01:00:33 <emperorjake> Part of the point is to tell vehicles from different groups apart after all
01:01:03 <emperorjake> and other games like Transport Fever will select a random line colour
01:01:30 <rau117> On color in groups there is also a small ||or maybe not so small (=|| suggestion…
01:01:30 <rau117> Make it possible to more precisely control colors in groups, it is currently not possible to select different colors for different vehicles – one color per group. Something like this
01:02:55 <emperorjake> This would be great too, yes. I believe it wasn't included with the group livery feature originally because it would make the UI too complex, but if the UI is going to be redesigned it might be a good opportunity to think about adding it
01:23:51 <rau117> *Thi is most likely a bug, and for this I need to create a bug report + separated suggestion, but i'm little bit lazy for now…*
01:23:51 <rau117> AsiaStar (and TIM) is detected as EMU and repaints pax/mail cars into its own color. Other two-head locomotives (except DMUs), are regular locomotives. And I would consider it a bug that TIM and AsiaStar are EMUs.
01:23:51 <rau117> The DMU/EMU problem is that the player does not have the opportunity to make the color of the passenger wagon different from the color of DMUs/AsiaStar/TIM.
01:23:51 <rau117> If you convert the current vanilla EMU/DMU to "regular locomotives", then the ability to make EMU+wagons of the same color remains using groups. But it became possible to make multi-colored trains from these locomotives.
01:30:03 <emperorjake> I'm pretty sure that is intentional, as there would be no trains that are classed as EMUs in the vanilla train set otherwise
01:55:42 <talltyler> “Random colour group” would probably be implemented as an additional item in the dropdown list?
02:00:33 <emperorjake> I think that would be too inconvenient to access, I'm thinking of having a dedicated randomise button to the left of the dropdown. So you can quickly press it multiple times until you get a livery that you like
02:00:58 <emperorjake> or quiclkly randomising colours of a bunch of vehicle groups in a row
02:01:38 <talltyler> Mmm, good point. If it’s next to the dropdown, that’s a better design anyway
02:01:56 <talltyler> Would be a good PR for a certain somebody 😛
02:02:27 <talltyler> (I am happy to advise, I’m just not at a computer to write any code to help)
02:02:42 <emperorjake> I'm trying to code it but I don't really know what I'm doing 🙃
02:03:19 <talltyler> Did you add the widget to the .h file?
02:03:47 <talltyler> Check out all uses of a different widget and you’ll find its definition
02:04:38 <talltyler> I do a LOT of looking at other widgets and where they’re used, to make sure I don’t miss anything
02:05:05 <talltyler> “Find all references” is the right-click item in VS
02:11:56 <emperorjake> Ah, very useful thanks, still learning the tricks of the trade
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07:54:47 <andythenorth> emperorjake: And because the ‘by train vehicle type’ colours are broken / weird
10:11:06 <xarick> hmm, break on feature doesn't seem to work upon restarting
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11:09:47 <peter1138[d]> Per group liveries is too much
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12:15:57 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, relative effort still way too high. Odd.
12:16:47 <peter1138[d]> Still, 104 miles to go.
13:12:32 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe that grey text on grey is a bit hard to read.
13:13:26 <peter1138> "to show" -> "are set up"?
13:16:01 <truebrain> yeah, that is better
13:16:58 <truebrain> I was thinking things like "There are no road vehicle groups yet", but that all sounds weird
13:17:24 <peter1138> Yeah, it's weird, in most other lists if it's empty it's empty.
13:17:54 <truebrain> consistentcy is overrated anyway
13:18:08 <peter1138> Subsidies window shows "- None -"
13:18:08 <truebrain> even spelling of the word consistency doesn't have to be consistent, I guess
13:18:45 <peter1138> But I that doesn't work in the company colour window.
13:18:48 <truebrain> lol, yeah, that wouldn't fit this window 🙂
13:19:11 <truebrain> but here too, "(no subsidies are offered)" would be better 😛
13:20:35 <truebrain> or even: "are currently offered"
13:22:16 <peter1138> It has precedent I guess :)
13:22:23 <truebrain> wth happened there? 😛
13:22:36 <truebrain> that `-` is in a weird place 😛
13:23:21 <peter1138> ":-" used to be fairly common for some reason.
13:23:40 <truebrain> that looks just weird
13:26:57 <truebrain> those British people ....
14:06:17 <alfagamma7> peter1138: I was taught that in school for some reason
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14:08:47 <_glx_> and it's very hard for me to not put a (non breaking) space before colon
14:49:00 <xarick> look at my paint skills
14:55:40 <pickpacket> Looks like I’ll be donating ~£25 to OpenTTD at the end of the year 🙂
14:59:12 <peter1138> dbg: [misc] [32bpp-to-8bpp] 116 us [avg: 116.0 us]
14:59:57 <peter1138> But probably not ideal.
15:00:08 <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 262144 Dec 23 14:53 32to8bpp.dat
15:00:36 <peter1138> Embedding it would be nicer.
15:02:12 <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 15656 Dec 23 15:01 32to8bpp.dat.lzma
15:02:22 <peter1138> Such a small file :)
15:14:55 <truebrain> Generate on first start?
15:15:40 <truebrain> Should #11620 be a discussion?
15:18:04 <peter1138> Yeah. I tried constexpr generation, but it's too complex :D
15:18:43 <peter1138> But a build-step to generate a header file is also an option.
15:19:32 <peter1138> I probably care too much, it's not that much time to generate. Although my PC is moderately fast.
15:20:40 <truebrain> In general we had chats before about generating info on first start
15:20:47 <truebrain> Like NewGRF scan info
15:20:58 <truebrain> So it would set a good example 🙂
15:21:31 <peter1138> It's my code so hardly a good example :D
15:22:15 <truebrain> Anyway, a runtime cache will most likely also be fine .. the overhead is really small compared to the rest of the game 🙂
15:23:48 <alfagamma7> Bought a new laptop last week
15:23:48 <alfagamma7> Hope to get better performance now
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15:30:32 <peter1138> Hmm, it'll affect your performance graphs :D
15:33:07 <truebrain> Not noteworthy, I hope 😛
15:33:44 <truebrain> Well, for the small games it will 🙂
15:34:18 <alfagamma7> I am still sticking to my laptop turned desktop for now
15:34:21 <truebrain> Well, no, as I don't load 32bpp grfs 😄
15:34:28 <alfagamma7> The previous one that is
15:34:48 <alfagamma7> The battery is gone for good
15:34:52 <truebrain> At least, I assume you only create the cache if it is actually used? 😄
15:35:38 <truebrain> Ah. Well, a possible optimization! 😛
15:35:59 <peter1138> I could go back to the old strategy of calculating the nearest colour when that colour is used.
15:36:44 <peter1138> That spreads it out a bit, and mostly the whole palette range isn't used.
15:36:52 <peter1138> But someone said I should precalculate it :o
15:37:15 <truebrain> It seems you fell in a rabbit hole 🙂
15:37:43 <peter1138> Problem with precalculating the whole thing on demand is... there's no clear way to know when it's needed until it's needed. And at that point you are mid-rendering.
15:38:15 <truebrain> So just calculate it when needed and cache it. Premature optimization has its risks 🙂
15:38:19 <peter1138> Hmm, generate in a thread on a startup and hope it's not needed in the first 1 second :D
15:40:54 <truebrain> If then it actually show up in a profile, maybe time to look at other things, but I am guessing that for your current use it doesn't show up 🙂
15:41:29 <peter1138> Oh, breakpoints don't work when you start outside of the IDE.
15:41:29 <locosage> precalculate it with less precision, increase it in a background thread xD
15:42:36 <alfagamma7> What IDEs do you guys use?
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15:45:17 <peter1138> Okay. If you are using 8bpp graphics, then it does not need all 262144 entries.
15:45:32 <peter1138> Because only ~213 colours are used.
15:46:40 <peter1138> An individual lookup is between 0 and 1µs.
15:46:53 <peter1138> So... precalculating was premature optimization.
15:47:30 <truebrain> But did you have fun while exploring? 😛
15:47:47 <peter1138> Hitting the constexpr evaluation limit was a bit of learning :)
15:48:03 <truebrain> Did not expect that to exist tbh ..
15:48:04 <peter1138> In fact, learning how to do it as a constexpr table was fun, even though it didn't work.
15:48:32 <peter1138> I increased the limit 100 fold, and it took several minutes to compile. And still failed.
15:49:11 <peter1138> TICC/TOCC says 0.0µs to 0.1µs
15:49:25 <peter1138> Does that even need a lookup table? :D
15:50:25 <peter1138> Given the amount of pixels that are drawn, that was not an entirely serious question :)
15:51:03 <truebrain> Now benchmark a table access! (Down another rabbit hole he goes!)
15:51:27 <peter1138> I could allocate the table on first use...
15:51:30 <peter1138> But it's only 256KB.
15:52:02 <peter1138> I did actually do that originally, but that was when it was only used by the sprite loader.
15:52:48 <locosage> well, measuring best case isn't particularly indicative
15:52:58 <truebrain> We can always make it on-demand if that turns out to be an issue 🙂
15:53:05 <locosage> try full 32bpp lag on first map scroll or smth
15:53:09 <peter1138> I tested with zBase too.
15:53:20 <locosage> though I didn't see any noticeable issues with caching on demand in cmclient
15:53:35 <peter1138> I've already been doing that with 32bpp-to-8bpp sprites.
15:53:42 <peter1138> I thought I had a massive slowdown.
15:53:51 <peter1138> So I tried it with native 32bpp and... it was still slow.
15:53:57 <truebrain> But you were just sleepy? 😛
15:54:05 <peter1138> i.e. the slowdown is something else.
15:55:52 <peter1138> truebrain, 256KB is a compromise. If you make the lookup larger you have to do more lookups, so it's slower.
15:56:08 <peter1138> And the next size up from 256KB is 2MB.
15:56:35 <truebrain> Yeah, I liked your idea of 6bit instead of 8
15:56:47 <truebrain> Seems like a good balance
15:56:48 <peter1138> Eh, confusing symbols there, sorry :D
15:57:11 <peter1138> I actually found 3 bits works mostly okay, but there is some noticable blotches.
15:57:32 <truebrain> And 256KB is nothing in modern standards
15:57:40 <peter1138> Because it's mapped to our palette rather than being a standard posterization.
15:57:45 <truebrain> Sure, someone will complain, but .......
15:58:52 <truebrain> It really helps most of the 32bpp mimic the 8bpp look and feel 🙂
16:00:32 <peter1138> Hmm, I guess I should test with 40bpp mode.
16:00:46 <peter1138> I compile with SDL1 instead of SDL2 so I don't get access to Hardware Acceleration.
16:01:20 <peter1138> (Although the button is still there and it pretends it does stuff...)
16:01:47 <peter1138> I think... I have a patch for that.
16:05:04 <peter1138> Anyway, the performance hit with this PR is now nil unless you use MB's newstats.
16:05:15 <peter1138> And even then, only some specific ones.
16:05:24 <peter1138> I'm not sure any other NewGRF uses this feature.
16:08:47 <peter1138> Self-resolved \o/ :D
16:12:09 <peter1138> Hmm, no, 40bpp mode fails :/
16:16:51 <_glx_> oh most likely they were intellisense errors and build actually never started because cmake could not configure
16:20:44 <peter1138> Okay, due to how 40bpp-anim works, it's actually possible to do the remap in purely 8bpp space.
16:21:04 <peter1138> (But only if only 8pp graphics are used.)
16:23:21 <peter1138> So you use use hardware acceleration and 8bpp graphics, there's no lookup penalty at all.
16:23:28 <peter1138> And that is probably the most common case.
16:50:19 <peter1138> I'd be surprised if 9416 wasn't totally obsolete by now.
16:57:12 <talltyler> If it’s obsolete we should close it. I don’t know how to verify that though, at least on mobile I don’t see any merge conflicts.
17:01:08 <peter1138> Hmm, 1.46 seconds to load 32bpp sprites, 2.2 seconds to load 32bpp sprites as 8bpp.
17:01:20 <peter1138> That's a slowdown :/
17:01:32 <peter1138> (But already it's slow.)
17:02:16 <_glx_> talltyler: there are conflicts
17:03:08 <_glx_> in strings.cpp (and most likely expected)
17:03:55 <peter1138> FormatString uses a StringBuilder now, parameter handling has been changed too.
17:04:16 <pickpacket> Kids want me to make a mod that only changes ”passengers” to ”cats”
17:06:30 <peter1138> Hmm, precalculating the lookup doesn't really improve it.
17:06:53 <peter1138> Brings it down to 2 seconds, which is better but not worth it.
17:07:11 <merni> pickpacket: I mean you could just create a language file that does that
17:07:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler closed pull request #10376: Fix: [Script] Ensure building/removing rail lines can't be backwards and allow building/removing rail lines coming from or heading to the void https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10376
17:14:03 <pickpacket> merni: can it contain only that string?
17:16:05 <merni> pickpacket: Yeah it would fall back to English for the rest, iir
17:16:21 <merni> That's what incomplete official translations do, anyway
17:17:10 <brickblock19280> It should work by just overriding cargo 0 name I did it with firs once renaming coffee to tea
17:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> pickpacket: the more elaborate solution would be to make an "industry" grf with the cargo properties. that could also change the icons in the station window
17:23:01 <brickblock19280> I don't think that. Would be a problem since name is a property and not a callback
17:29:47 <talltyler> A custom translation would be way more work than just refining the Passengers cargo
17:30:19 <peter1138> Refined passengers... soylent?
17:30:35 <talltyler> You’ve already done Tea, just do that for passengers (header, cargo definition, and a cargotable with only PASS)
17:35:47 <peter1138> Our new andythenorth :)
17:37:59 <talltyler> Those are some big shoes to fill. I can’t draw nearly well enough. 🙂
17:55:34 <xarick> a big negative number is actually the smallest value 😦
17:59:41 <Rubidium> well... have fun with std::numeric_limits<...>::min() ;)
18:35:35 <talltyler> Whew, I think that’s all the PRs I can review without booting up my laptop to test things.
18:35:45 <xarick> omg, bing chat character limit is now 2000 😦
18:40:26 <xarick> oh, only for the balanced mode, okay, acceptable
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18:49:56 <LordAro> talltyler: good work <3
18:57:18 <xarick> the 3 searches together
19:02:20 <xarick> AreTilesQueued is still the overall winner
19:02:35 <xarick> but not by much anymore
19:50:31 <peter1138> Hmmm, 7990 sprites with no NewGRFs seems high.
19:50:54 <peter1138> Original sprites end at 4896
19:51:06 <peter1138> Have we really added 3000 sprites...
19:51:58 <andythenorth> All those group livery icons 😛
19:52:24 <andythenorth> but also things like river sprites for all climates
19:52:27 <peter1138> Hmm, monospace font?
19:54:34 <peter1138> SPR_NEWGRFS_BASE is 6140
19:55:52 <peter1138> With OpenGFX2 Hi Def its 9555 sprites on load.
20:10:19 <xarick> I think openttd has some memory management issues when it comes to lists
20:10:40 <xarick> I know that I'm working with 16 million items, but still.... 18 GB ram usage?
20:11:42 <_jgr_> This is because OpenTTD maintains reverse mappings of lists for sorting/iteration purposes
20:11:55 <_jgr_> You should avoid using large lists in scripts
20:12:41 <xarick> the memory limit isn't breached in the framerate window though
20:15:29 <_jgr_> The framerate window memory totals are only an approximation
20:15:49 <xarick> seems bugged, it's 1.27 MiB
20:15:59 <xarick> while task manager peaks at 18 GB
20:16:25 <_glx_> well lists are not accounted there I think
20:17:54 <_jgr_> The RB trees for the list mappings will likely be much larger than the list squirrel object itself
20:21:05 <_glx_> yes squirrel allocated only 1.27M
20:21:18 <_glx_> the rest is not counted
20:21:37 <_glx_> because it's indirectly allocated by openttd itself
20:25:28 <xarick> it's strange. The simplest function which involves two rectangles takes more cpu time, just for the overhead, only because it uses one extra list. I disabled all valuation of tiles, it's just cycling them. I expected it to be the fastest.
20:26:06 <xarick> there was a large stall at the beginning and at the end
20:27:17 <xarick> have you seen the functions?
20:28:47 <xarick> 61 vs 52, the simplest vs the most complex
20:29:25 <_jgr_> Squirrel is not the language to use if you want to do anything efficiently
20:32:53 <xarick> I'm gonna try capture the stalls in the benchmark
20:34:01 <xarick> just noticed the framerate window isn't that good for representing stalls
20:34:19 <_glx_> it's affected by them too 🙂
20:35:43 <peter1138> Run it in a separate thread ;0
20:36:09 <_glx_> but usually I think it happens when the script is not doing pure squirrel stuff (because pure squirrel stuff is limited)
20:36:55 <truebrain> allocating 18GB of RAM, for example 😛
20:38:20 <_glx_> we should have kept lists for OpenTTD-squirrel communication only 🙂
20:38:35 <_jgr_> List valuate calls are not interrupted, so could easily cause a stall on large lists
20:39:31 <_jgr_> It's be rather difficult to write any non-trivial AI or GS without squirrel lists
20:40:40 <truebrain> and ofc lists were designed to be easy in use; not to be fast or least-amount-of-memory 🙂
20:41:08 <_glx_> main issue is non pausable valuate
20:41:21 <truebrain> that is part of the "easy in use" 😛
20:41:39 <truebrain> easy solution: cap lists to max N items 😄
20:42:01 <_jgr_> I had a go at reducing the memory cost of lists but it was a bit fiddly
20:42:11 <_glx_> oh the max can be very low for custom valuator written in squirrel
20:42:33 <xarick> _jgr_: fastforward including the stalls
20:43:13 <_glx_> and if you happen to start a valuation when near the allowed instruction quota for this tick
20:43:28 <xarick> I really wonder if this measurement is accurate
20:43:40 <truebrain> it is time for an andy: WASM when? 😛
20:43:54 <peter1138> limiting the size of lists is probably sensible.
20:45:10 <xarick> I just wanted them not to stall
20:45:12 <truebrain> that is what you get for abusing a system then complaining issues arise from that abuse ...
20:45:47 <_glx_> VehiculeList itself can be big
20:46:41 <peter1138> Hmm, up to 1 million vehicles can exist.
20:46:57 <peter1138> That's still 16x smaller.
20:47:25 <xarick> 4096x4096 was a mistake?
20:47:37 <peter1138> Storing tileindices in a list is a mistake.
20:47:45 <_glx_> yes, don't put the whole map in a list
20:47:58 <peter1138> You can almost certainly just calculate.
20:49:03 <xarick> well, I'm using these lists to find the tiles with a noise increase of exactly 2 for the intercontinental airport.
20:49:17 <peter1138> e.g. OpenTTD's TileIterator iterators from top corner to bottom corner, but does not contain a list of each tile.
20:49:22 <xarick> so that I place these airports at the furthest place away from the town
20:49:41 <peter1138> Have you considered the pointlessness of what you are doing?
20:50:01 <xarick> er... yes I guess it's pointless
20:50:01 <peter1138> It's even more pointless than converting 32bpp sprites to 8bpp. Why bother?
20:50:22 <_glx_> (and all that to confirm an overflow/underflow we already know is possible but unlikely to happen)
20:51:31 <xarick> yeah, I'm still working on it
20:56:16 <xarick> I'm skipping this benchmarking phase, gonna focus on filling the town with airports now
21:07:41 <peter1138> Did you do the thing where you make a 1x1 heliport have 255 noise?
21:22:42 <xarick> no, i'm unable to do newgrf's
21:26:22 <peter1138> You can edit the source code though.
21:26:27 <peter1138> table/airport_defaults.h
22:05:51 <andythenorth> peter1138: “Where I go, others must follow”
22:14:32 <andythenorth> Benchmarking Squirrel and GS is quite lol 🙂
22:29:05 <peter1138> Hmm, FileCloser vs FileDeleter...
22:33:59 <peter1138> FileDeleter requires .get() everywhere. Hmm.
22:40:26 <xarick> ` /* Create a list of distances and store the number of times that distance was counted */
22:40:26 <xarick> if (!_distances_table[noise].rawin("distances_list")) {
22:40:26 <xarick> _distances_table[noise]["distances_list"] <- GSList();
22:40:28 <xarick> if (!_distances_table[noise]["distances_list"].HasItem(distance)) {
22:40:28 <xarick> _distances_table[noise]["distances_list"].AddItem(distance, 0);
22:40:30 <xarick> _distances_table[noise]["distances_list"].AddItem(distance, distances_list.GetValue(distance) + 1);
22:40:32 <xarick> I forgot how to create a key,val in a table. I'm getting the index distances_list doesn't exist.
22:43:59 <xarick> I tried `_distances_table[noise].distances_list.AddItem(etc..` didn't exist either
22:53:24 <talltyler> I am the FileCloser 👀
22:54:02 <peter1138> It seems both ways have merits.
22:54:11 <peter1138> But having two ways is annoying :)
22:54:27 <peter1138> But also, spamming .get() because FILE is a unique_ptr is a pain.
22:56:05 <xarick> `_distances_table[noise].distances_list.AddItem(distance, _distances_table[noise].distances_list.GetValue(distance) + 1);` So confusing, but oh well
23:05:04 <talltyler> Should I close #10367 as “we know, but it’s not a bug and not planned to fix”?
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23:05:21 <talltyler> Sprites don’t resize sort of by design
23:05:33 <peter1138> Well I have a patch for it ;)
23:10:40 <_glx_> so many different ways to do the same thing
23:19:04 <xarick> The "Break on" feature is slightly broken, btw.
23:23:03 <_glx_> it works for me (but I tried only with one window)
23:23:04 <xarick> how to explain it... you type in something there, it breaks on match. Now if you start a new game, open the debug window, you have the something you typed there, but it no longer breaks on match. You need to click on it
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23:34:30 <peter1138> I assume I broke it :)
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23:39:16 <_glx_> yeah but was easy to miss
23:39:31 <_glx_> static to non-static can have side effects
23:40:33 <peter1138> It's xarick's fault for requesting multiple windows.
23:44:05 <_glx_> lucky we are in this channel to see the non existing bug reports 😉
continue to next day ⏵
