IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-12-02
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02:26:03 <_pruple> hmmm... nightlies are not nightlying?
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02:36:54 <Rubidium> they somewhat are, but something vcpkg related is broken for Linux I guess, and that also prevents the other builds from being deployed
03:11:55 <johnfranklin> Do TaI and UK town sets limit population? It seems that the population could not exceed 1000 in very early era
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03:20:41 <_pruple> the ancient one (that uses modified original TTD graphics) limits towns to a preset size per year. The newer one (with the big coloured block placeholder graphics) limits yearly growth to a configurable percentage.
03:21:22 <_pruple> both only work if they're the only town set loaded, because of course the way they limit growth is by not building any buildings - if another set can build buildings instead, it will.
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07:43:11 <peter1138> Those build actions are above my paygrade :o
07:50:44 <peter1138> LordAro, am I riding today?
07:51:01 <peter1138> Sorry, stupid keyboard :/
07:51:50 <_pruple> are you riding today?
07:52:18 <_pruple> the sun's going down and it's dropped below 30 here, so I'm going to the shop
07:56:12 <andythenorth> I am selling christmas trees at the school fair today
08:03:42 <andythenorth> why don't Horse railcars carry pax + mail combined?
08:03:48 <johnfranklin> generation x still in school? 😛
08:04:11 <andythenorth> does Sunshine have combined pax + mail DMU?
08:05:38 <peter1138[d]> You can't flip them
08:06:30 <emperorjake> andythenorth: They did in Horse 1, iirc
08:06:43 <andythenorth> Sunshine doesn't combine them
08:07:36 <dwfreed> andythenorth: security reasons :D
08:07:36 <johnfranklin> andy should be in southern england according to weather forecast
08:22:28 <_pruple> andythenorth: No it does not (unless you build the metcam as two separate heads and refit one)
08:23:04 <alfagamma7> andythenorth: that's awfully high
08:45:39 <_pruple> _pruple: building metcam heads separately was added to allow this (somewhat prototypical) formation
08:50:29 <andythenorth> in "I pretend I'm not a foamer" news, sometimes a single-ended cab car (motor or trailer) was added to an existing formation also
08:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> why don't Horse railcars carry pax + mail combined? <-- wasn't there a problem with autoreplace when combining cargos?
08:54:55 <andythenorth> JGR might have fixed that
08:55:04 <andythenorth> I think that was one reason though
08:55:21 <andythenorth> the other is that multi-cargo can only be done with articulated vehicles
08:55:38 <andythenorth> so no depot flip
08:56:02 <andythenorth> and it's unpleasant to compose an 8/8 sprite over a 7/8 + 1/8 articulated vehicle
08:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> we never developed a spec for articulated flip
08:56:24 <andythenorth> offsets and turning gets more complicated when a sprite extends over an invisible vehicle
08:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's easier to do 1+6+1
08:57:03 <andythenorth> yes, Horse 1 did that
08:57:13 <andythenorth> I imagine....a 0/8 vehicle is out of the question?
08:57:38 <_pruple> by the time you've done articulated flipping, you may as well do full reversing of consists 🙂
08:58:07 <_pruple> unless your spec for articulated flipping is "set a flag and let the grf author work it out"
08:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> _pruple: i think the implementation problem was that you need to go forward and backward through the vehicle chain
09:00:07 <_pruple> yes, but if you worked out reversing the vehicle chain for [these vehicles built as an articulate], you may as well expand it as a feature to apply to the entire train.
09:00:44 <_pruple> I'm not suggesting either would be easy or should be done 😛
09:01:45 <andythenorth> /me considers a super realistic DMU building thing with variants
09:02:32 <andythenorth> also brake coaches with 50:50 split mail / pax
09:02:56 <andythenorth> or I could finish one of the many many other unfinished projects instead 😛
09:03:15 <andythenorth> I failed the ADHD clinical screening tests
09:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> _pruple: i'm definitely suggesting both should be done. but if it were easy, someone would have done it already :)
09:11:16 <johnfranklin> Is sunshine trains in NFO?
09:12:22 <johnfranklin> Using PNML to define functions and definitions helps me to save lots of work
09:13:12 <johnfranklin> Although you might think my "GRF mechanics" as "bad features"
09:13:40 <_pruple> newgrf is bad features all the way down
09:14:18 <andythenorth> johnfranklin: it's a rite of passage
09:14:25 <andythenorth> in future, when you delete all that code, you will be enlightened
09:15:36 <johnfranklin> I am turning 20 in two days:P
09:16:41 <johnfranklin> My openttd experience, say, is turning 2 in ~20 days, maybe
09:19:37 <johnfranklin> And for trains I have more hellish things, although it is not as hellish as NFO language...
09:21:59 <johnfranklin> running cost, cargo age period, only attach MU wagons to MUs, MUs can only start with some lengths...
09:22:55 <andythenorth> yes, there is a spec, you must explore it 🙂
09:23:24 <andythenorth> when you are twice as old, you will know why
09:23:40 <_pruple> and at least you're not reducing the hp of the locomotive to simulate the drag of the dynamos on the passenger cars
09:23:53 <_pruple> nobody would be that silly
09:24:41 <andythenorth> I am considering class 31/4 and 37/4 variants for Horse 😛
09:25:01 <andythenorth> variants mean all BAD FEATURES are now ok?
09:25:06 <andythenorth> because they're just action 0 props?
09:26:02 <johnfranklin> I don't want to use variants... There are some still using pre 13.1 since they only have phones, no PCs
09:26:25 <andythenorth> _pruple: what if we got peter1138 to add a UI for editing props in game?
09:26:29 <_pruple> I'm just waiting for the nightlies to work again so I can add more bad features 🙂
09:26:42 <andythenorth> per vehicle type, per vehicle, or both?
09:27:01 <andythenorth> then we can model exact trains
09:27:07 <_pruple> per vehicle, definitely
09:27:15 <andythenorth> some class 37s are faster than others
09:27:20 <_pruple> a full vehicle-customisation mechanic
09:27:33 <andythenorth> arbitrary, or grf author sets the ranges?
09:28:03 <_pruple> also per-pixel rgb liveries. paint your wagon.
09:28:06 <andythenorth> different prime mover / alternator / traction motor / control gear / springs / fuel tanks / ballast
09:28:11 <andythenorth> also....gear ratio
09:28:24 <andythenorth> gear ratio is the most essential
09:28:43 <johnfranklin> I think with gear ratio we can potentially get 255^2 vehicles in TTDP
09:28:46 <andythenorth> it's sad that the game doesn't actually model acceleration curves
09:28:59 <andythenorth> TE and HP are not effective proxies for it
09:29:41 <_pruple> if OpenTTD is missing one essential feature, it's accurately modelled, animated wheelslip
09:29:48 <andythenorth> consumable sand?
09:29:58 <andythenorth> sand range, visit depot for refill
09:30:03 <andythenorth> or a sanding tower waypoint
09:30:23 <johnfranklin> Cities Skylines moment
09:30:49 <johnfranklin> Where sands are acquired and used by terraforming
09:31:05 <_pruple> johnfranklin: sounds like a job for gamescript
09:31:27 <andythenorth> aren't they all?
09:31:30 <andythenorth> regearing in GS?
09:34:11 <andythenorth> Horse after 1990
09:34:26 <andythenorth> speeds are very fragmented
09:34:28 <johnfranklin> Horse before 1900 is weird
09:34:35 <andythenorth> it barely exists before 1900
09:35:04 <johnfranklin> Because 60 mph was too fast in 1860
09:35:09 <_pruple> openttd before 1900 is weird
09:35:31 <andythenorth> 1905 start is the best start in 1905
09:35:50 <andythenorth> 1930 isn't the best start in 1905 though
09:35:52 <johnfranklin> I always start openttd games in ~1880
09:36:02 <andythenorth> everyone has to make poor choices sometimes 🙂
09:36:14 <andythenorth> _pruple: pls discuss vehicle speeds
09:37:12 <emperorjake> class 67 gotta go fast
09:37:39 <johnfranklin> Horse is very good
09:37:50 <johnfranklin> With "bad features" is better
09:37:58 <andythenorth> all the other generations do 15mph speed increases, except gen 5 -> gen 6
09:38:13 <andythenorth> and there's a boring set of gen 6 mail and pax cars that are boring
09:38:41 <andythenorth> and there's a weird mix of engines available in gen 6, but only 115mph
09:38:52 <johnfranklin> I think speed should not increase linearly?
09:39:01 <andythenorth> and others in gen 5 + gen 6 that are 125mph
09:39:02 <johnfranklin> Say, HST 125 was 1970s thing
09:39:18 <andythenorth> and there's also 140mph in gen 5, with the high speed rail
09:39:41 <andythenorth> so gen 5 -> 120 mph unified
09:39:46 <andythenorth> no gen 6 speed bump
09:39:53 <andythenorth> remove the gen 6 pax + mail cars
09:40:07 <emperorjake> Or go 90-100-110-125
09:40:09 <andythenorth> expand the high speed range
09:40:25 <andythenorth> if you play from 1900 ish on
09:40:35 <johnfranklin> 90-100-110-125, yes, they are "reasonable" speeds
09:40:42 <andythenorth> there's a lot of needed micro-managing yak-shaving in 1930, upgrading trains
09:40:45 <andythenorth> then again in 1960
09:40:49 <andythenorth> then again in 1990
09:41:01 <andythenorth> by 2020, upgrading trains is old news in terms of game development
09:41:06 <_pruple> I guess the optimal upgrade cycle for locomotives is speed / power alternating, rather than both at the same time
09:41:19 <andythenorth> NARS Horse might work along those lines
09:41:27 <andythenorth> faster -> but not enough power
09:41:29 <_pruple> then once you reach a certain point, freight locomotives (which are limited by wagon speed) just go to power increases
09:41:33 <andythenorth> same speed -> more power
09:41:50 <_pruple> and express locomotives, which have hit the meaningful power limit, just go to speed increases
09:42:03 <andythenorth> gen 6 of Horse is about trying to jam in realistic trains to gameplay
09:42:13 <andythenorth> whereas IRL there's not much stats development
09:43:01 <_pruple> sunshine has the neat trick of not doing 21st century, which avoids that problem 🙂
09:44:38 <johnfranklin> Okay, I should work on my set again
09:45:43 <andythenorth> maybe with Super Daylength 2 I can do the same
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09:48:49 <andythenorth> every type of class 37 ever built
09:49:15 <_pruple> every individual loco as a variant
09:49:27 <andythenorth> 309 individual class 37s, and sub-variants for each rebuild they got
09:49:39 <andythenorth> that's it, that's the entire grf
09:49:49 <andythenorth> generated from a spreadsheet
10:01:32 <andythenorth> ok so 120mph Horse from 1990 (gen 5)
10:01:47 <andythenorth> but add more engines that can use high-speed lines, at 140mph
11:00:27 <_glx_> _pruple: My fix was supposed to work (it did on my fork when testing) but unfortunately they updated the runner image so vcpkg is broken again
11:08:40 <_pruple> clearly linux is more trouble than its worth 🙂
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11:17:46 <_glx_> Seems some sdl2 dependency tree modifications are causing it
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13:48:56 <talltyler> New revenue stream everyone, let’s sell player’s data to Amazon. 😛 (probably not what’s being suggested here, to be fair)
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14:53:16 <andythenorth> can confirm coldness
15:25:17 <peter1138> Now you need to make sure your cargo icons look nice ;)
15:29:27 <peter1138> Need a bigger monitor for FIRS 5
15:30:50 <peter1138> Is that drop down list better than this button list?
15:34:35 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I could do what andythenorth did and add a More... button.
15:35:22 <peter1138> By default only list the cargo types that have > 0 stations
15:36:19 <talltyler> Almost anything is better than that button list, mostly because the two-letter cargo code is incomprehensible
15:36:31 <rau117> Well... for vanilla I would still choose buttons. Especially if the drop-down list closes if you remove the mouse from its area.
15:38:11 <_jgr_> I'd sort of assumed that the full cargo name would be shown in the tooltip, but testing it now and it isn't
15:38:40 <_jgr_> Other places where cargo abbreviation buttons are used have useful tooltips
15:38:41 <rau117> Hmm... is it possible to make a list in 2 columns?
15:39:09 <peter1138[d]> Adding the name as a tooltip could be done but it still suffers from being a long list of buttons that makes the window very wide.
15:40:09 <peter1138[d]> Multiple columns might be worth trying.
15:44:02 <peter1138> Might benefit the rail/road type toolbars when they are very long too.
15:44:19 <peter1138> s/toolbars/dropdown menus/
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15:49:31 <rau117> It would be nice if it were switchable and not “smart”. In some cases, several columns will be worse than one, and it is up to the player to decide which cases those will be.
15:50:06 <peter1138> Up-to-the-player seems like a bad UX decision, to be honest.
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16:02:29 <emperorjake> talltyler: AXIS changed it to 4 letters but it made that window even wider
16:03:24 <peter1138> I guess the spec never enforced 2 letters :o
16:04:27 <emperorjake> It's needed with 64 cargo types
16:05:51 <emperorjake> I suppose I could have them all match the cargolabels but those don't always match the name in game
16:07:53 <peter1138> It's all greyed out because there's no stations in a fresh game ;)
16:08:24 <emperorjake> That makes so much more sense
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16:19:18 <rau117> peter1138[d]: Is it possible to switch gray cargo even without stations?
16:20:28 <peter1138> It's the same grey as used on the main toolbar dropdowns for trains/rvs/ships/aircraft if the company does not have any of that type of vehicle.
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17:12:35 <peter1138> Oh, discord crashed.
17:12:47 <peter1138> It's a web page. Thanks modern SPA...
17:13:14 <peter1138> Presumably it was an opportunity to try to sell something else to me.
17:37:09 <peter1138> Need 210 miles more.
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18:07:28 <peter1138> SRW is minimum Windows 7
18:07:48 <peter1138> Not sure what is using that though.
18:14:55 <truebrain> Luckily we don't support Vista anymore .. download an older version 😛
18:16:10 <peter1138> It's listed on the Download page.
18:16:31 <truebrain> We should remove that 😛
18:17:01 <truebrain> Vista was EOL in 2012 ..
18:17:29 <truebrain> Most likely also the only person who tried it on Vista in.. 10 years 😄
18:18:54 <peter1138> <!--This Id value indicates the application supports Windows Vista functionality -->
18:18:57 <peter1138> <supportedOS Id="{e2011457-1546-43c5-a5fe-008deee3d3f0}"/>
18:20:51 <truebrain> We never update that stuff ... well, when someone reports it is broken I guess
18:26:41 <_glx_> yeah we explicitely drop when needed
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18:28:03 <LordAro> would be interesting to know exactly what requires it
18:28:10 <_glx_> and sometime it's not a change in our code but in windows SDK
18:28:10 <LordAro> purely out of interest
18:28:19 <truebrain> If you are really bored 😛
18:31:20 <peter1138> Just find an old Vista install...
18:37:41 <michi_cc[d]> Usually missing DLL functions are from whenever MS updates the C/C++ runtimes with the VS compiler versions. New VS versions don't usually consider system long out of support anymore.
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18:40:55 <_glx_> Documentation even drops not supported versions
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18:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i need a tool that i feel should exist but doesn't seem like it does... a disassemble->filter for SSE4 instructions->replace them with alternate code->reassemble tool
19:01:37 <peter1138> Resize drop down semi-working...
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20:48:47 <peter1138> Well, my thingy doesn't work.
21:01:10 <peter1138> InvalidateWindowData(WC_STATION_LIST, st->index);
21:01:16 <peter1138> Well, that's an old bug :-)
21:17:24 <peter1138> May have been tested by building the first station as the first company? :D
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21:47:15 <peter1138> Hmm, should changing the station list cargo filter apply to all station list windows, or just the window it was changed in?
21:49:00 <peter1138> As an aside, 8192 as buffer size is insane ;)
21:49:20 <truebrain> you can tell me anything! 😛
21:49:37 <peter1138> I might do a PR to change it.
21:50:07 <truebrain> I also have been thinking we maybe should drop win32
21:50:10 <truebrain> and only publish win64
21:50:54 <peter1138> "Wait for the survey" :o
21:51:13 <peter1138> Do Steam download stats give you a good indicatiohn?
21:51:25 <truebrain> you are not wrong; but I see too many win32 downloads for the amount of actual 32bit Windows installations that should exist 😛
21:53:03 <truebrain> if Steam is ever going to send me a 2FA code via email, I can check 😛
21:53:09 <truebrain> but for some reason, those always take FOR EVAH
21:53:20 <peter1138> The Pentium 4 2.8 GHz released in November 2002 was Intel's last desktop 32-bit CPU, apparently.
21:54:00 <truebrain> Steam only supports Windows 7+
21:54:05 <truebrain> and only Windows 7 has still a 32bit variant
21:54:17 <truebrain> it is 0.06% of the Steam population
21:54:43 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, I guess Intel Atoms are not desktop CPUs and they were made after that...
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21:57:23 <truebrain> and where Steam mentions that 0.06% of the Windows users have an actual 32bit system
21:57:38 <truebrain> 233 out of the 1067 Windows downloads today were win32.exe
21:58:16 <truebrain> that is such a significant difference, that I suspect many players are on a 32bit version, where they should be on a 64bit version
22:00:47 <peter1138> Hmm "Remove ambivalent functions"
22:00:58 <peter1138> I would've gone with ambiguous I suppose.
22:01:14 <truebrain> you can remove after my PR merges, okay? 😛
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22:01:39 <truebrain> ugh, openttd.org and Steam are never friends when ti comes to emails ..
22:01:44 <truebrain> takes for ever to get through the greylisting
22:04:08 <truebrain> ugh, another 2FA before I can look into the detailed report of how OpenTTD is doing on Steam .. this will take another 5 minutes 😦
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22:05:10 <peter1138> Why use standard 2FA when you can invent your own, call it SteamGuard, and award you an achievement for activating it...
22:05:13 <truebrain> ah, here we go .. 1.8M (!) licenses ...
22:05:44 <truebrain> 1.3M lifetime unique users
22:05:57 <peter1138> I bet some people would've paid to have it on Steam :)
22:06:59 <truebrain> okay, our users, who did respond to the Steam HW survey, report 0 32bit users
22:07:21 <truebrain> owh, there is an "other" category
22:07:34 <truebrain> 0.11%, at best, have 32bit
22:08:16 <truebrain> SteamOS is used by 0.82% 🙂
22:08:37 <truebrain> also 0.11% only has a single CPU core 😛 That group might have overlap 😄
22:09:15 <truebrain> 0.08% has 4GB or less
22:09:34 <truebrain> 5.7% has 64GB! That is a larger group than I would expect
22:09:52 <truebrain> only 60% is English
22:10:33 <truebrain> everyone has SSE2 and SSE3, 99.7% has SSSE3, and 99.5% SSE4.1 😛
22:11:37 <truebrain> anyway, too many people than realistic download win32 .. and we autoselect win64 when we detect it. So either our detection is bad, or people are silly 🙂
22:11:53 <truebrain> but, as long as Windows 7 isn't EoL (almost!), we might as well keep win32
22:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> when has windows being EoL ever stopped anyone?
22:12:51 <truebrain> (well, Windows 7 is already EoL ofc, but they now also announced that they wouldn't focus on it anymore for things like MSVC)
22:13:12 <peter1138> If that many people are playing on win32, it seems to mean it does at least still work (unlike Vista)
22:13:31 <truebrain> and we are not likely to grow over 2GB of RAM
22:13:36 <truebrain> but still .. it is weird
22:15:13 <peter1138> Over 2GB? I could try :D
22:19:26 <truebrain> No quick approval? 😛
22:22:30 <truebrain> Pretty sure this was not the result the bug reporter was hoping for.... 😄
22:29:52 <peter1138> How did we manage to make a gui filtering system, that uses global vars?
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22:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hysterical raisins
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22:32:23 <truebrain> That is how we rollllllll baby
22:33:39 <peter1138> Lots of red in my VS Code, but I think that's because it's given up updating.
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22:42:09 <peter1138> Okay, tempted to believe it's easier to just make all station list windows have the same filter and just update them all at the same time. Seems bad.
22:42:23 <peter1138> Like each window has its own filter but really it's the same :p
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