IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-28
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00:41:58 <bungus> _pruple: are you sure? I swear I built two in a city the other day
00:42:53 <bungus> I mean you are probably sure I'm just wondering wtf I did
00:43:48 <goddess_ishtar> I've never been able to build more than one in a city
00:44:25 <goddess_ishtar> so either you have some patch doing things, or you have one conurbation that's technically two local authorities and built a statue in each
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01:43:11 <bungus> i think the latter might be what happened, it was a very spread out city and it placed the statue really far away from the other
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05:41:04 <kamnet> OpenTTD via GOG supports cloud saves?
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08:00:58 <merni> As exactly the same binary is published everywhere that seems doubtful :p
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08:44:09 <_pruple> afaia you can run openttd with an argument for the location of the config (and other files)... so they can just do that to point it at their own directory that gets backed up to their cloud?
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10:09:37 <pickpacket> The town listing has two columns: one for a smiley and one for the town name (and pop). If I were to add a symbol for a statue, or other rating modifier, where should that be added?
10:23:19 <peter1138> Oh god _zephyris, why did you make it smiley in OpenGFX...
10:24:12 <peter1138> That's just a innocuous little green circle with the original graphics.
10:28:26 <pickpacket> the town listing doesn't show the number of towns we have
10:29:47 <peter1138> There was some patches for that but I believe the general feeling is knowing the exact number of towns doesn't actually have any purpose.
10:49:20 <_zephyris> peter1138: I don't actually think I'm to blame for that, I think those gui elements got added during my hiatus...
10:49:51 <_zephyris> Well, I tweaked the smileys to be even more smiley in OpenGFX2...
14:05:21 <peter1138> Okay, Roland SC-8820 is quite nice for OpenTTD.
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14:29:41 <bungus> do you have a real SC8820? i forgot you can map it to older soundcanvas models
14:30:35 <bungus> the soundcanvas sounds so good, id like to buy one sometime but they are getting rarer and more expensive
14:31:05 <goddess_ishtar> consumer midi in general is just not really a thing anymore
14:31:16 <goddess_ishtar> it's all professional stuff now
14:31:16 <bungus> nope its a product of its era
14:31:40 <bungus> its niche now like vinyl so its only catered to enthusiasts
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14:36:03 <peter1138> bungus, yes, the SC-8820 is a compromise as SC-88s are super overpriced at the moment.
14:36:51 <peter1138> But at least the SC-8820 has the correct engine inside it, the SC-8850 is the model that is different and not as compatible.
14:40:30 <peter1138> I actually tried to get an SC-88pro off ebay last year but got sent a JV-1080 instead.
14:40:31 <bungus> tell me about it, that deck is crazy
14:40:52 <peter1138> So, er... a very nice synth, but not quite the synth for gaming MIDIs :D
14:41:13 <bungus> yeah not what you probably intended to buy it for
14:41:30 <goddess_ishtar> bungus: playing OpenTTD with a huge cabinet of MIDI equipment would be such a flex
14:41:35 <peter1138> Well, I have a use for it anyway, so I kept it.
14:41:51 <peter1138> I remember went MT-32s were < £100 on eBay, and damn I wish I'd bought one.
14:43:05 <peter1138> The Windows software synth is based off some older version, it's okay but not quite the same.
14:43:37 <bungus> its really bad compared to like fluidsynth/timidity with a soundfont
14:43:53 <bungus> which arent perfect but are a big improvement
14:44:01 <jfs> the synth shipped with DirectX (now just with windows) uses samples recorded from an SC-88, but not the actual SC-88 patches, as far as I know
14:44:58 <jfs> i.e. not the base samples from the soundcanvas ROM
14:46:18 <bungus> i wonder why they have kept the same synth and havent touched it since windows 98
14:46:36 <peter1138> Okay, I only just got this SC-8820, and I love it already :D
14:46:39 <bungus> they removed support for the midi control panel in what, windows xp? or 7
14:46:54 <bungus> probably because no one cared anymore
14:47:07 <peter1138> The JV-1080 was good but could tell the mapping was a compromise.
14:47:10 <bungus> what are you testing with it?
14:47:28 <bungus> try the descent soundtrack too
14:47:33 <peter1138> Unfortunately OpenTTD's MIDI on Linux is kinda broken :(
14:48:45 <peter1138> Hmm, actually maybe that was my MIDI routing before.
14:49:03 <peter1138> aplaymidi doesn't send any notes off when you exit it, so skipping tracks is... not good.
14:49:11 <peter1138> But pmidi seems better.
14:49:50 <bungus> i had to install a bunch of packages that werent included as dependencies as normal with arch to get timidity to playback, but after that it works just fine with soundfonts
14:50:14 <bungus> oh are you talking hardware routing
14:50:18 <kamnet> merni: Went over to GOG and somebody asked about any other difference between Steam and GOG other than GOG supporting cloud saves. I didn't know if this is something GOG itself did or if a feature got added that I missed.
14:50:20 <jfs> bungus: why put any more work into a thing that exists purely for backwards compatibility with old games?
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14:51:23 <shrekshellraiser> kamnet: GOG games don't have a launcher and don't require an account to install/launch last I used it
14:51:25 <jfs> games using MIDI for music or anything else stopped being a thing just a year or two after that soft synth first appeared... arguably it had already stopped being relevant then
14:51:38 <peter1138> Hmm, no, pmidi does not note-off with OpenTTD either :(
14:51:42 <bungus> everyone who cared about midi got better solutions or real hardware, and yeah lack of interest
14:51:56 <peter1138> Presumably OpenTTD kills it in a different way than what ^C does.
14:52:08 <jfs> and I think the GOG launcher does some generic savegame syncing, they also have it for DOS games running in dosbox
14:52:22 <bungus> gog has a launcher to download your games through but its not like steam where its used as DRM
14:54:11 <peter1138> Yeah, changing that to SIGINT fixes it.
14:55:09 <peter1138> We have a fallback to SIGKILL, maybe we should do SIGINT, SIGTERM then SIGKILL.
14:57:15 <peter1138> Hmm, pitch bend seems excessive.
15:04:28 <peter1138> Moving to the next track does not work still. Hmm.
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15:12:13 <peter1138> Ah, got the Descent base music set working... incorrect case in the filename in the obm file.
15:13:11 <peter1138> Oh, System Shock might sound better now.
15:16:30 <truebrain> kamnet: This has indeed always been enabled on GOG. Not a functionality we deliver, but during evaluation of OpenTTD something GOG decided to enable. We don't even know what exactly they sync 😛
15:31:12 <peter1138> Duke Nukem 3D had nice music too.
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16:02:08 <peter1138> Okay, killing that Cyberdemon was just the start...
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16:49:06 <peter1138> Come on monsters, kill each other! :D
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17:24:37 <peter1138> Ah, striving.mid. Design for Gravis Ultrasound, but sounds better with SC...
17:25:51 <peter1138> I still have a Gravis Ultrasound, but of course no ISA slot.
17:34:27 <bungus> the only way to really do that stuff anymore is having an only win98/dos machine with period accurate hardware
17:35:03 <peter1138> ISA yes, but the GUS isn't a particular good card.
17:35:07 <bungus> a lot of things just stopped getting updated that were essential to make a lot of old PC gaming stuff work
17:35:27 <bungus> no it's not you need a soundblaster
17:35:36 <bungus> but those are also mad expensive now
17:35:59 <peter1138> I did have an AWE64 Gold later, not sure where that went.
17:36:16 <peter1138> Also had an SB Live! but that developed a fault that would reset the computer.
17:41:23 <bungus> honestly sound in old PC games is overrated, the true experience is playing everything through the PC speaker
17:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a win 3.11 driver for pc speaker
17:42:44 <bungus> I was not fortunate and my family didn't have enough money for frivolous things in the family computer like music
17:43:03 <bungus> PC speaker is where it's at
17:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, most DOS games had PC speaker support. but windows somehow didn't
17:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but there weren't very many windows games in that era
17:43:50 <bungus> yeah you had to run a lot of games through DOS mode
17:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, running games in windows made little sense, it was just eating into performance, and memory
17:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd usually have a boot disk that just loaded the bare minimum
17:46:04 <bungus> did you ever use dead floppies as coasters
17:46:37 <Wolf01> The good old floppies with autoexec.bat to load drivers and set expanded memory for DOS games :P
17:48:16 <Wolf01> I miss the times where the software ran on the bare metal and not on a virtualized space
17:48:23 <bungus> Games being split between 6 different floppy disks that stopped you and asked you to load a new disk to keep playing too
17:50:00 <bungus> one of my favorite things that basically doesn't exist anymore is cracktros and demos
17:50:59 <bungus> Especially on the very old computers, people did crazy things with video and object and shader rendering with no hardware at all
17:51:08 <bungus> Very technically impressive
17:52:22 <rau117> Question about the recent bugfix regarding “city is not allowed to build roads”. In my opinion, the bugfix only added problems.
17:52:24 <rau117> Previously this worked as expected. If a city is prohibited from building roads, then the ban applies everywhere.
17:52:24 <rau117> Now the game simply ignores the setting in the scenario editor.
17:52:26 <rau117> The first 2 pictures are 13.4. The game gives a warning, but works as specified in the settings.
17:52:26 <rau117> The second 2 pictures are nightly 20231026. The game does not issue a warning and simply builds roads, ignoring the settings.
17:52:28 <rau117> Now is it possible to prohibit the city from building roads in the scenario?
17:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> in my experience, it's best to have the scenario editor paused
17:57:02 <rau117> rau117: And indeed, before it worked exactly as specified in the settings. Some people found it inconvenient to switch the setting, so it was forcibly turned disabled for everyone.
18:19:32 <rau117> rau117: I hope this proposal will be noticed. ||I'm sorry, but I can't do it myself.||
18:19:32 <rau117> In the city menu in scenario editor, make toggle buttons like this. So you don't need to search trough the settings to change it.
18:20:18 <truebrain> talltyler: What I always said about that, is that it would require someone to sit down and write out what we want to auto-save
18:20:31 <truebrain> it is not completely trivial what we want there .. only the .sav files? Also autosave.sav?
18:20:48 <truebrain> etc etc. It is not "difficult", but it does require someone actually writing it out
18:22:01 <truebrain> how most games use Steam's Cloud Saves, is that you can wipe your disk, reinstall Steam, and continue playing
18:22:19 <truebrain> for OpenTTD that is somewhat more tricky due to self-downloaded content, like NewGRFs, AIs, etc
18:22:34 <truebrain> so if we don't use it for that, for what do we use it? What benefit does it bring the user? (other then saying: Cloudsaves enabled)
18:22:44 <truebrain> basically that. So far nobody took the time or effort
18:26:05 <bungus> steam cloud just saves config files and saves
18:26:52 <bungus> the steam workshop could be the equivalent to bananas and when you use the steam cloud, it redownloads everything directly from the workshop
18:26:56 <Rubidium> though aren't NewGRFs just complicated configuration files, like what vehicles there should be, how they look and what their statistics are
18:27:20 <bungus> yes, but newgrfs are huge
18:27:56 <Rubidium> I'd argue most are smaller than Windows' configuration file
18:28:55 <truebrain> thank you for proving it is not trivial, and someone should write it out 🙂
18:29:21 <bungus> youd be storing graphics and audio files, and while they are essential to load up saves synced between computers they are out of scope of what cloud saving is about
18:29:33 <truebrain> btw, Steam Workshop is not going to happen, period.
18:29:39 <rau117> It is worth saving at least openttd.cfg, hotkeys.cfg, windows.cfg and possibly secrets/private.
18:29:39 <rau117> But then you will have to separate the hardware settings from openttd.cfg so that different devices have different settings for resolution, basic graphics, sound, and so on.
18:29:39 <rau117> Saves and autosaves can also be a problem - on a 4k map with trees, the save takes up about 30 megabytes. Against this background, newgrf is not such a big problem.
18:29:40 <truebrain> we are talking about Cloudsaves here 🙂
18:30:36 <bungus> i know, and im drawing the comparison between cloud saving how steam does it compared to theoretically how you would do it
18:31:10 <bungus> steam isnt saving the files for mods or user content in the cloud saves, its just config files and save files
18:32:09 <talltyler> We should hash this out in a GitHub discussion so there’s a permanent record of how we came to whatever conclusion we reach 🙂
18:33:25 <talltyler> (I am on a train right now and am not that personally interested in cloud saves, so someone else would have to start said discussion)
18:33:56 <truebrain> talltyler: that has been the generic response over the last 2 years, yeah 😄
18:34:16 <bungus> you can setup cloud saves very easily already using other programs and tools
18:34:39 <bungus> have it watch for folder updates and change files when it detects something
18:36:48 <bungus> i think if people really want it that bad, then a forum post with instructions and details how to setup cloud saves yourself would be better than programming anything
18:37:22 <_jgr_> rau117: Uploading credentials/secrets to the third party cloud service doesn't seem like something that it would be a good idea to enable by default
18:37:53 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:38:01 <truebrain> lol, I wrote a s/ line to fix JGRs response, but instead, it tried to apply it to my own last sentence ... Discord is weird 😛
18:38:49 <jfs> in fact, if you install windows 10/11 and accept all defaults/"microsoft recommended" during the OOBE, then it will sync your Documents folder to OneDrive, and OTTD puts all the data in a subfolder of Documents
18:40:05 <peter1138> There's a whole range of password management products that do exactly that :D
18:40:09 <bungus> microsoft is really bad at it especially with needing a command line command to get past the forced MS account login when installing a new OS
18:40:12 <peter1138> (And no, I don't use them either.)
18:40:38 <bungus> but also, if you install anything with default settings without checking what the installer is trying to do, you are going to have aa bad time
18:40:43 <truebrain> peter1138: well, most of them use local encryption, and only store a blob of encrypted shit on the server .. so let's not compare apple with oranges here 😛
18:44:02 <goddess_ishtar> jfs: yeah, I enabled that accidentally and it has been a pain ever since
18:44:22 <bungus> you can get rid of it very easily
18:44:24 <goddess_ishtar> filesystems were not meant to be in the cloud
18:45:00 <goddess_ishtar> bungus: the next PC I had I disabled it, and the old one I haven't used enough to care about it really
18:45:04 <rau117> _jgr_: For me these are just default passwords for the server/company and invite-code for previous server. For me personally, this is not such important information and I can agree to upload to Steam.
18:45:04 <rau117> I don’t know, maybe others have more valuable data.
18:45:04 <rau117> Of course, it would be ideal to have a switch for “what exactly do you want to download”. I wouldn't load my saves...
18:45:21 <bungus> you can just go into the programs & features menu and uninstall onedrive
18:45:37 <truebrain> talltyler: look at what you did ..... 😛
18:45:45 <bungus> to remove the menus from windows explorer even after its removed you have to do some powershell commands
18:46:01 <bungus> but onedrive wont sync or hijack your documents if you uninstall it
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19:07:21 <peter1138> It's enwettenating.
19:12:09 <peter1138> Ahhh, DOSBox using SC-8820.
19:13:33 <peter1138> Shame Debian has a rather elderly version of DOSBox.
19:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> just throwing my dime on the cloud save debate: just the .cfg and .sav files. newgrfs can be re-downloaded from the sav file meta infos. and custom downloads are the responsibility of the player. most people who would use cloud saves wouldn't even run into that situation.
19:18:45 <peter1138> Oh the glorious Duke3D theme.
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19:37:23 <_zephyris> Adding my 2¢, keep it simple. It's called clouds saves for a reason. Just sync the .sav files, OpenTTD has robust game setting and mod/NewGRF data in the saves. And, like Eddi says, advanced users downloading and installing NewGRFs manually etc. are unlikely to be surprised at any issues.
19:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, and autosaves should be treated the same as other .sav files, so should also be cloud synced
20:39:22 <pickpacket> Wha…? Cloud saves? This sounds interesting
20:39:39 <peter1138> Nobody is implementing it.
20:40:52 <pickpacket> I can see how handling infra for that would be a nightmare
20:41:33 <pickpacket> and if a user wants it then just put the save files in their dropbox or syncthing or smth
20:42:01 <pickpacket> Still a fun thought experiment, though!
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22:32:52 <truebrain> I am not in favour of making our life more difficult to support the fetishism of a single distro 😛 any of you disagree? 🙂
22:38:09 <truebrain> (Mainly, it is not actually solving any issue, as these are header-only libraries)
22:41:08 <_glx_> and it doesn't work (at least for emscripten)
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22:42:56 <truebrain> It really feels like creating a problem where there is none 😄
22:43:49 <_glx_> yeah when vendoring we just don't care about system libs, and we don't even interfere
22:44:32 <truebrain> Anyway, if anyone disagree, let me know, otherwise I will write some nice words tomorrow and close the PR 🙂
22:44:55 <_glx_> I can understand the requirement when you provide a lib, but we are just an exe
22:45:23 <truebrain> When we would dynamically link against a library I would also understand, as there can be security implications
22:45:35 <truebrain> But with header-only libs that just isn't the case
22:46:37 <truebrain> I didn't consider the issue of system library being too new .. that too is an issue for these kind of libs 😛
22:47:06 <_glx_> yeah like our custom squirrel2
22:47:36 <truebrain> Just a lot of overhead in a vein attempt to maybe possibly use the system library; but okay, I might just be missing something
22:47:37 <goddess_ishtar> version promiscuity
22:49:42 <goddess_ishtar> _glx_: there doesn't seem to be a reference anywhere, just a list of the APIs that OpenTTD makes available
22:49:42 <goddess_ishtar> what are the major changes from the Squirrel 2 spec?
22:50:46 <truebrain> Pick one 😛 we very poorly documented what we changed .. like .. we didn't. At all 😛
22:51:30 <truebrain> (Ignore the Codechange and Cleanup commits)
22:51:56 <FLHerne> from a theoretical purity point of view I kind of like the change
22:52:05 <FLHerne> it seems completely pointless practically though
22:52:14 <truebrain> FLHerne: Good summary 😄
22:52:17 <FLHerne> I mean, if it's the same version it's the same version
22:52:43 <_glx_> I just checked nightly runs, the upgrade worked well it seems
22:52:47 <FLHerne> and if it's a different version it won't match, or shouldn't given what it says
22:52:48 <truebrain> Lot of code to help 2 users, basically 🙂
22:53:14 <goddess_ishtar> I'd rather take "works well under practical circumstances" over "theoretical purity"
22:53:48 <truebrain> I don't like code we never actually test ourselves
22:54:25 <FLHerne> I suppose the only beneficial case is if there's an important fix (point release or backported) in the distro's version of one of these libs that hasn't reached OTTD
22:54:53 <FLHerne> but they're so tiny that seems relatively unlikely, and the opposite case is probably more likely in fact
22:55:36 <_glx_> hmm but it rebuilds everything every time now
22:55:47 <_glx_> seems the cache is not updated
22:56:12 <truebrain> debdog: Kinda. I has to be an exact version match, so the odds of that are slim
22:56:13 <FLHerne> I remember having some serious flaming rows with distro packagers when I had time for FOSS
22:56:26 <_glx_> oh of course it's not, the key doesn't change
22:56:38 <truebrain> For example fmt might work for the next month on fedora 39, then we update .. and it won't use the system version anymore
22:56:39 <goddess_ishtar> FLHerne: that's a mood
22:56:58 <FLHerne> > if ( PYTHONINTERP_FOUND AND PYTHON_VERSION_STRING VERSION_GREATER "3.4.2" )
22:57:13 <goddess_ishtar> yelling at upstream is a time-honoured programmer tradition
22:57:14 <FLHerne> Ubuntu: Oh, but we have 3.4.0 s/\.2//
22:57:23 <FLHerne> Ubuntu users: aaargh the highlighting is insane your software is borken halp
22:57:35 <truebrain> FLHerne: I totally gave up on distros tbh. Their concept simply doesn't work for "latest version" of software
22:57:45 <truebrain> You are always years behind
22:57:55 <FLHerne> similarly, gentoo had a sed script that basically rewrote the entire buildsystem into a pile of horrible bugs
22:58:01 <FLHerne> for apparently no reason at all
22:58:25 <truebrain> Snap, nix,... are a more decent approach
22:58:27 <FLHerne> and SUSE kept begging to support completely outdated version of everything (but did at least test thoroughly)
22:59:05 <truebrain> (Or any container approach, honestly)
22:59:16 <goddess_ishtar> obviously you should run Linux From Scratch
22:59:22 <FLHerne> tbf, I find Atch packaging works pretty well
22:59:40 <truebrain> goddess_ishtar: Well, our generic linux build might just work 😛
23:00:09 <truebrain> I like that it just depends on a libc not older than 10 years 😄
23:00:15 <FLHerne> it moves fast enough that the versions of everything are always in sync, so you don't have the pointless back-compat hell
23:00:31 <truebrain> FLHerne: That is nice. Never tried it
23:01:14 <_glx_> "Cache hit occurred on the primary key ubuntu-20.04-vcpkg-release-1, not saving cache."
23:01:19 <goddess_ishtar> is it still in fashion to make fun of Arch users for saying they use Arch?
23:01:24 <truebrain> Ubuntu 22.04 has podman 3, which is so old, it is not even funny. So you end up with endless ppas etc ... it even comes with node16 which is out of support .
23:01:32 <_glx_> cache is nice, but I want to update it
23:01:54 <truebrain> _glx_: Put the date in the cache key? Dunno
23:02:02 <truebrain> Someone must have solved this issue 😄
23:02:27 <truebrain> Most likely by using fallback keys
23:02:36 <FLHerne> truebrain: at least it's not Debian Stable
23:02:53 <_glx_> yeah we use fallbacks for other targets
23:02:58 <truebrain> And don't get me wrong, for productions servers it is great
23:03:03 <truebrain> For gaming pcs ... no
23:03:11 <_jgr_> I never got the impression that Fedora was a distro for people who like games
23:03:33 <goddess_ishtar> I use Mint, mostly because I find using Ubuntu painful but I still want access to their ecosystem and Cinnamon has a very gentle learning curve
23:04:02 <FLHerne> yeah, my server is on Debian Stable, what I hate are the people who insist on running their desktop on it and then telling upstream about things that were fixed five years ago
23:04:04 <_jgr_> I always assumed that is was for people who wanted RHEL but didn't want to pay for it or usel CentOS 😛
23:04:09 <truebrain> I want to try NixOS, but I am scared
23:04:23 <goddess_ishtar> there is still a rather large chunk of software that assumes that all Linux is Ubuntu
23:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a large chunk of people that think all of germany is bavaria
23:05:02 <goddess_ishtar> they distribute their Linux client as a .deb package and a tarball, and that's it
23:05:10 <truebrain> Eddi|zuHause: AND TALK REALLY LOUD
23:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> truebrain: SCHMETTERLING!!!
23:05:44 <FLHerne> _jgr_: Fedora has a six-month release schedule and a fairly bleeding-edge attitude (very early adopter of systemd, Wayland, Pipewire etc.), makes it quite a good choice for desktop gaming or development
23:05:52 <dwfreed> FLHerne: my desktop is debian bookworm; it is not 5 years out of date
23:05:54 <goddess_ishtar> Eddi|zuHause: I've also heard stories that there's also a large chunk of people in the US who still think of Germany as Nazis
23:05:58 <truebrain> goddess_ishtar: I can happily report we stopped doing the tar/deb, and now only do tar 😛
23:06:01 <goddess_ishtar> it was genuinely a bit yikes to read
23:06:07 <FLHerne> dwfreed: yeah, 5 is slight hyperbole
23:06:25 <FLHerne> it can legitimately be 3 or so if the releases line up badly
23:06:35 <truebrain> dwfreed: 4 is more realistic
23:06:41 <dwfreed> there's a release every 2 years; bookworm just released
23:06:45 <goddess_ishtar> FLHerne: yeah, but that same bleeding-edge also gives it a reputation for instability
23:06:46 <FLHerne> (2 year cadence plus missing freeze and so on)
23:06:59 <_jgr_> At one point I used Slackware and cared about all that sort stuff
23:07:16 <goddess_ishtar> most of my friends who use Linux use Fedora
23:07:24 <_jgr_> Now I just want it to Just Work and Ubuntu is good enough
23:07:46 <dwfreed> _jgr_: same (though with Debian, as mentioned)
23:07:53 <truebrain> I only use WSL these days .. which means Ubunti is good enough there too 😄
23:08:13 <dwfreed> I have Debian for WSL on the PC, though I don't use it
23:08:56 <goddess_ishtar> Every time I've used Ubuntu it's been painfully slow and impossible to navigate the UI
23:09:08 <goddess_ishtar> GNOME 3 was a mistake btw
23:09:23 <dwfreed> gnome 4837 even more so
23:10:31 <_jgr_> Ubuntu doesn't have t omean GNOME, thankfully
23:11:19 <bungus> every major distro comes with flavors for the default desktop environment
23:11:20 <dwfreed> I have a friend that maintains xubuntu (ubuntu + xfce); I'm running a similar project of his that is xfce + debian; it's honestly pretty great
23:11:50 <bungus> and it's Linux, if you don't like a DE you can rip it out and install another
23:14:58 <goddess_ishtar> they didn't offer a Cinnamon version of Ubuntu until relatively recently
23:15:18 <bungus> cause cinnamon is Mint's thing
23:15:50 <goddess_ishtar> yeah and I said I use Mint because I like Cinnamon
23:16:14 <bungus> I really like KDE plasma
23:17:09 <bungus> it has the whole package that other DEs like xfce are lacking in some areas, makes it really good to use as a daily driver
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23:17:53 <bungus> I use i3+KDE on my laptop
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23:18:28 <FLHerne> I used to use KDE apps with dwm but stopped bothering when I got a larger-screened laptop
23:18:40 <FLHerne> I have room for titlebars now :p
23:18:51 <goddess_ishtar> I don't have any experience with it
23:19:03 <goddess_ishtar> I've heard that KDE apps are bloated, is that true?
23:19:40 <bungus> no lol and if it is bloated you can just uninstall the package and replace it with an equivalent
23:20:59 <bungus> i3/dwm and all those equivalent are really good for a laptop, you can control everything from the keyboard without having to move your hands to the touchpad
23:21:35 <bungus> also a little easier to tile and manage windows for productivity
23:21:49 <debdog> goddess_ishtar: some of them are. but then the gnome equivalent usually is not less bloated
23:25:59 <bungus> Ubuntu for WSL you really don't have to worry about most of this stuff though, you get the Debian package manager ecosystem and it's command line only so anything gui related is a non issue
23:27:14 <_glx_> you can run GUI app in wsl
23:27:55 <bungus> yeah I guess I meant mostly not only
23:28:16 <debdog> I can run GUI app on a 'puter on the other side of the world via ssh. what's your point? :P
23:29:01 <bungus> that when you sit in a terminal prompt all day, the GUI of programs you use is irrelevant
23:29:21 <bungus> I mean look at RMS and emacs
23:29:46 <goddess_ishtar> WSL means I have to run Windows
23:30:19 <bungus> whatchu talkin bout willis
23:30:41 <bungus> you can still use linux INSIDE windows without dual booting or using a VM
23:31:53 <debdog> but who want's that? WSL is ruining linux and the philosophy behind it
23:32:01 <bungus> I still dual boot anyway though, I use windows for gaming and linux for a dev environment or general day to day things
23:33:27 <goddess_ishtar> I have Windows on my laptop and Linux on my desktop
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23:33:49 <bungus> I mean people who were previously locked out of linux only programs can now run them or have a linux environment without having to dual boot or install anything, I think it has a lot more value to less experienced people
23:33:59 <goddess_ishtar> because games don't really support Linux that well and I mess with my desktop all the time
23:34:17 <bungus> people who might be afraid or intimidated by installing a new OS because they lack the knowledge
23:34:52 <goddess_ishtar> just once I want to compile Linux From Scratch just for the novelty of it, but I keep running into issues whenever I try
23:35:22 <goddess_ishtar> bungus: yeah, WSL is great if you're running Windows *anyway*, not so much otherwise
23:35:49 <bungus> I think arch is much better for the whole do everything yourself from the ground up aspect
23:35:55 <goddess_ishtar> there are some tasks that it is genuinely easier to do in a POSIX environment
23:36:36 <bungus> LFS is more of an exercise and a novelty than an actual OS
23:37:13 <debdog> seriuosly, installing a windows version compared to installing (most) linux distros, windows sucks. one has to search for drivers, pick the proper one and then install them in the correct order including several reboots. installing e.g. debian is a recreational day.
23:37:20 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, just so I can say "I compiled this entire system from source!"
23:37:58 <goddess_ishtar> I haven't actually used Arch, what's it like?
23:38:36 <goddess_ishtar> I could put it on the testing laptop
23:38:49 <bungus> the arch wiki is extremely well documented and makes troubleshooting things or looking up how to do things very easy
23:39:19 <bungus> which is essential because you have to do everything yourself more or less with arch
23:39:59 <debdog> arch wiki prolly is the best source!
23:40:06 <bungus> My favorite thing about Arch though is installing it and using it has in effect made me a smarter and more proper Linux user when it comes to how to do things the right way
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23:40:46 <goddess_ishtar> how much comes done for you out of the box?
23:40:55 <bungus> Because you have to do everything yourself you learn more about things because it's not transparently tucked away by something the distro is doing
23:41:18 <bungus> I mean when you load up the arch iso it gives you a command prompt and that's it
23:41:48 <bungus> you have to do everything yourself, but the steps on how to install the OS from scratch are very well documented
23:42:35 <bungus> there is an arch installer script that you can use now that gives you a sort of gui and installs a base OS
23:43:13 <bungus> but also, because you are relying on a script and not doing it yourself, you don't understand what exactly the script is doing behind the scenes
23:43:35 <debdog> goddess_ishtar: with "usual hardware" most installers cope and everything runs OOTB. the clue is, one can configure almost everything to ones needs.
23:43:44 <bungus> and it installs things in a non standard way that the arch wiki documentation doesn't match sometimes
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23:44:24 <bungus> yes, with arch you only install what you need
23:45:05 <bungus> which leads to situations where sometimes you might need to install one or two things that aren't marked as dependencies when installing something else to get it to work
23:45:23 <goddess_ishtar> time to see how it will run on some giant Dell laptop from ten years ago
23:46:18 <bungus> it's just a command prompt, you decide what DE or video drivers to install for it
23:47:21 <bungus> I recommend messing with it in a VM first, it's a lot easier to wipe and restart compared to real hardware
23:47:51 <bungus> which you probably will want to do a couple times while first trying to install it because you messed something up
23:49:00 <goddess_ishtar> ughhh the most annoying part about installing something new is finding media for it
23:49:12 <goddess_ishtar> I go through so many usb drives
23:49:28 <goddess_ishtar> no I mean, physically
23:49:29 <bungus> oh you mean for liveusb or installers?
23:50:19 <bungus> just use one very large thumb drive
23:51:10 <goddess_ishtar> how did I not know about this
23:52:48 <goddess_ishtar> welp that makes things significantly easier
23:58:33 <goddess_ishtar> oh that's right
23:58:42 <goddess_ishtar> this laptop is too old for UEFI
continue to next day ⏵
