IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-07-15
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00:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate when that happens... saying "it's fixed" without leaving a hint what was actually wrong
00:50:15 <_glx_> driver or OS probably
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02:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well... obviously...
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04:33:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #11138: Fix #11137: assertion failure due to interpreting string as number
04:33:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 closed issue #11137: [Bug]: Assertion failure when using settings filter
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07:10:46 <peter1138> Oops, I sat here too long.
07:10:49 <peter1138> And it's not raining yet.
07:10:51 <peter1138> Hmm
08:27:14 <peter1138> Now it is. Wait long enough...
08:36:05 <andythenorth> this is neat
08:36:06 <andythenorth>
08:36:22 <andythenorth> especially after 7 mins, it covers search strategies
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08:43:35 <andythenorth>
08:43:35 <andythenorth> "Diagonals"
08:43:42 <andythenorth> need a smaller mouse 😛
09:41:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry commented on pull request #11068: Feature: Set default company secondary colour for new games
09:55:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #11068: Feature: Set default company secondary colour for new games
10:10:13 <truebrain>
10:10:13 <truebrain> traffic to one single blog-post on our domain .. lol
10:12:24 <peter1138> The MacBook could easily handle that.
10:13:53 <truebrain> traffic was 8 times the normal during that spike 🙂
10:15:03 <truebrain> what might be more importantly, it also meant a spike in downloads
10:15:10 <truebrain> about 3 times more downloads during that period
10:15:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler approved pull request #11068: Feature: Set default company secondary colour for new games
10:16:51 <locosage> no noticeable spike in mp activity though
10:16:59 <locosage> and Spiff effect is also over
10:17:29 <truebrain> what is kinda funny to see, that most of those visits weren't done by a browser
10:17:36 <truebrain> either an app or a python library
10:17:52 <truebrain> shows a bit how most of those users visit the web 🙂
10:17:52 <locosage> robots, they're everywhere
10:19:09 <truebrain> it also shows some .. I think an app, directs all traffic via a single location
10:19:25 <truebrain> like, it is visible they were individual users, but they all have the same source address
10:20:24 <truebrain> so ~60% of the visits was by app, but after that Firefox won from Chrome .. also shows a bit what kind of people visit HN 🙂
10:20:43 <truebrain> as in a normal day, Chrome is far more popular than Firefox 😛
10:21:26 <truebrain> stats are fun 🙂
10:22:10 * andythenorth looks up 'self-referential'
10:22:12 <andythenorth> and 'meta'
10:22:32 <andythenorth> "I wrote a blog post about infra to survive HN traffic, then posted it to HN"
10:24:25 <truebrain> and that is the lovely thing about this kind of infra .. Cloudflare handled it with ease 😛
10:24:34 <truebrain> as for them, this amount of traffic is not worth mentioning 😄
10:25:09 <truebrain> another random fun fact: the most CPU consuming process are the TURN servers
10:25:14 <truebrain> which is kinda surprising to me
10:25:47 <truebrain> all they do is receive a packet, validate it is an OpenTTD packet, and send it on the wire again ..
10:26:08 <truebrain> it might be that my APM is being CPU intense here .. time to remove that anyway, as it was only useful in the beginning 🙂
10:28:20 <peter1138> APM?
10:30:03 <truebrain> Application Performance Monitoring
10:30:16 <truebrain> it basically traces how long things took on a per-request level, sampled
10:30:30 <truebrain> so you can find out if it is your query that is creating these long response times
10:30:34 <truebrain> or just a function you fucked up 😛
10:39:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain opened pull request #199: Remove: APM (tracer / honeycomb), as it consumes more CPU than it is worth
10:41:09 <truebrain> hmm, looking over what functions I traced, I doubt it is the reason for the CPU usage on the TURN service 😛
10:41:37 <truebrain> ah .. but I also added it to the protocol handling .. that makes more sense
10:45:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain opened pull request #23: Remove: tracers (APM) for all protocols
10:50:05 <peter1138> So a bit like the vehicle performance monitors in OpenTTD... they take up a non-insignificant amount of processing time, depending on platform.
10:50:51 <truebrain> exactly
10:51:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain opened pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
10:51:28 <truebrain> and APM is very useful if you, like with game-coordinator, you collect that over a massive amounts of data
10:51:33 <truebrain> shows very clear lines
10:51:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain updated pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
10:52:10 <truebrain> but where with OpenTTD the impact is in the 0.01% CPU or so, with Python it is ... a lot heavier 😄
10:54:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain updated pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
10:54:58 <truebrain> (I btw knew it had an impact on CPU, which is totally fine ofc; but as we aren't actually doing anything with the result anymore .. time to remove it 🙂 )
10:55:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain updated pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
10:57:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain updated pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
10:57:51 <truebrain> I will get there with this CI PR! Will just take me a few more attempts it seems 😛
10:58:05 <_glx_> 1 failure at a time
10:59:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] glx22 approved pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
11:00:34 <truebrain> from what I read, CodeQL no longer needs the dependencies installed, but I have yet to experiment with that 🙂 So for now .. we duplicate some code 🙂
11:02:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain merged pull request #24: Update: [CI] switch to reusing workflows and update actions the latest
11:02:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain updated pull request #23: Remove: tracers (APM) for all protocols
11:11:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain merged pull request #23: Remove: tracers (APM) for all protocols
11:11:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/py-protocol] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.5.0
11:11:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain updated pull request #199: Remove: APM (tracer / honeycomb), as it consumes more CPU than it is worth
11:12:42 <truebrain> I will leave merging of that PR till Monday .. to not disturb all active TURN sessions 🙂
11:20:16 <peter1138> No haproxy-style safe reloading... tut!
11:20:33 <peter1138> Actually yeah, that is just reload config, not restarting a new version 🙂
11:29:30 <andythenorth> what shall we do today?
11:32:01 <peter1138> Salad?
11:32:05 <peter1138> Bicycle?
11:34:09 <andythenorth> lunch!
11:34:13 <andythenorth> cheese!
11:34:47 <peter1138> I had a little halloumi.
12:24:09 <pickpacket> peter1138: eat bicycle and go salading?
12:26:05 <pickpacket> So OpenTTD is *not* an abbreviation?
13:00:17 <peter1138> Nope.
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14:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> about as much as "googling" is not a generic term for "searching"
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15:40:49 <squirejames> It's *suspiciously similar* to a game which did have an abbreviation of TTD, but, OpenTTD itself is not one
15:41:18 <squirejames> Because * checks notes * legal stuff
15:43:26 <locosage> first rule of OpenTTD: you do not talk about TTD
16:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that isn't actually a rule :)
16:04:24 <Wolf01> The rules are written in the topic, plus "don't piss off the devs or they'll add features like NRT"
16:05:04 <peter1138> We don't add features, we only remove them.
16:05:44 <Wolf01> We still had boats :)
16:06:10 <belajalilija> you should remove all signals apart from two way block signals
16:15:05 <peter1138> We remove the things that don't work... so we should everything except path signals.
16:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what feature can we remove today?
16:17:44 <peter1138> Loading savegames.
16:20:48 <truebrain> It could be worse:
16:21:26 <belajalilija> peter1138: you could do it like C:S where you cant load a save game without closing and reopening the game
16:24:56 <peter1138> I don't know what C:S is.
16:30:01 <belajalilija> cities skylines
16:30:45 <belajalilija> if you mod the game it makes loading save games without first closing and reloading C:S impossible
16:31:17 <peter1138> Oh, well we used to do that 🙂
16:32:02 <belajalilija> ooo
16:32:59 <peter1138> Back in the days when you had to put NewGRF config in openttd.cfg instead of storing it in the savegame.
16:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> belajalilija: that's a limitation of the game engine, lots of games have that.
16:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> belajalilija: it has to do with loading and unloading .dll files
16:38:48 <belajalilija> ooo
16:39:02 <belajalilija> i dont play lots of game so it was something weird to me
16:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that doesn't apply to OpenTTD as we don't allow modding through .dll files
16:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a clear indirection layer between game code and mods
16:49:49 <peter1138> It's still poor.
16:51:07 <peter1138> That reminds me of assetto corsa... there's a launcher that is used to select which track and cars are going to be in the game, and that's it, if you want to change anything you have to exit back to the launcher and start again. Of course it's set up so that it doesn't look like a separate launcher, just the game's main menu...
16:51:45 <peter1138> And then there's Live for Speed, where you can downloaded modded cars and switch tracks ... while staying connected to a mutliplayer server.
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17:21:02 <andythenorth> hmm
17:21:05 <andythenorth> motivation issues
17:21:21 <andythenorth> I want the payoff of making something
17:21:27 <andythenorth> without the bother of making it
17:36:52 <peter1138> Well
17:44:53 <andythenorth> I should probably have had lunch
17:44:56 <andythenorth> I had a orange
17:52:12 <peter1138> Should you
17:52:15 <peter1138> I had salad, and then some...
17:54:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] glx22 approved pull request #199: Remove: APM (tracer / honeycomb), as it consumes more CPU than it is worth
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18:04:31 <peter1138> truebrain: Actually the impact of the vehicle performance monitor is rather more than 0.01% CPU...
18:04:41 <truebrain> owh boyyyyy
18:06:06 <peter1138> #7247
18:09:05 <peter1138> (Kinda forgotten about)
18:09:20 <peter1138> Old enough that I was using 1x interface 😉
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18:27:07 <andythenorth> goes it grf or something?
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18:39:24 <kamnet> truebrain: LOL *extortion". Damn that's brave.
18:40:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] eints-sync[bot] pushed 1 commits to master
18:40:03 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:49:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #11139: Fix: Integer overflow in LinkGraphOverlay::ShowTooltip for long links
18:58:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler approved pull request #11139: Fix: Integer overflow in LinkGraphOverlay::ShowTooltip for long links
19:06:12 <peter1138> Nice, .net mvc rendering different HTML for the same source depending on whether it's a View or PartialView... (or more likely depending on the model state which will be different)
19:23:43 <peter1138> Hmm, NewGRFs changing industry cargo types dynamically only seems to happen on creation, in which case it should be fairly simple to handle that special case.
19:24:55 <talltyler> I wonder if it would break games that change industry newgrfs during a running game even faster
19:25:44 <peter1138> I don't think so, the cargos are set up when the industry is created, not when the saveload is loaded.
19:26:25 <peter1138> So if the update is broken enough that the slots don't match, then it would still be equally broken 🙂
19:27:01 <peter1138> Fortuately the 16-in/16-out stuff is down by cargo type rather than slot number, so it's already fairly resilient. Might not work but shouldn't crash.
19:27:12 <peter1138> At least, not this bit of it. Famous last words 'n all.
19:27:19 <peter1138> *done
19:27:58 <peter1138> Unfortunately for industryspecs which are built to the old 2/3 system, they are done by slot number. So need to be careful.
19:28:04 <peter1138> And that's probably a majority tbh.
19:30:59 <peter1138> Okay, handling this single probably unused use-case means that #11133 isn't totally redundant, at least 😉
19:31:43 <peter1138> Where it says "allow older grfs to skip slots", the comment now means "allow older grfs to add a slot with CT_INVALID"
19:32:54 <peter1138> Thus you end up with 2/3 slots in use if 1) the industry doesn't use the 16/16 feature, and 2) the industryspec uses the feature to change cargo slots dynamically on build (instead of just in the fixed spec).
19:35:18 <peter1138> case 0x88:
19:35:18 <peter1138> case 0x89: return this->industry->produced[variable - 0x88].cargo;
19:35:31 <peter1138> I mean, I can see what that does, but it's not really necessary is it...
19:36:41 <_glx_> 08 B[2] Types of cargo produced (-1 if N/A)
19:37:11 <peter1138> Yes
19:37:17 <_glx_> kinda limited
19:37:37 <peter1138> My point is that
19:37:37 <peter1138> > case 0x88: return this->industry->produced[0].cargo;
19:37:37 <peter1138> > case 0x89: return this->industry->produced[1].cargo;
19:37:37 <peter1138> Is probably clearer on what is happening...
19:38:03 <peter1138> And yes, these are the older accessors, there are newer ones that work based on cargo type rather than slot number.
19:39:20 <_glx_> it's even not directly listed in grf docs
19:39:38 <_glx_> so most likely not in NML
19:42:19 <_glx_> I don't even see how they could be used (the grf should already know what the industry produces)
19:43:05 <peter1138> Oh it's not just those two, there's also cargo waiting, rate and production/transported history. They will be useful.
19:43:59 <_glx_> but 6F and 70 are recent
19:44:15 <_glx_> well 69-70
19:44:42 <peter1138> Yes, those are the sensible ones that go by cargo type.
19:44:55 <_glx_> while 88 and 89 don't have equivalent for 16in/16out
19:46:08 <peter1138> Okay, but I'm not really sure what you're getting at? These are old variables from TTDPatch that are supported, and I just think the way it uses "variable - 0x88" to get 0 and 1 is a bit weird 🙂
19:46:43 <_glx_> yeah, it's how we used to do it
19:47:18 <_glx_> but I agree, 0 and 1 is simpler
19:48:15 <_glx_> the variable - 0xXX happens a lot in newgrf stuff
19:48:21 <peter1138> Anyway, vector .at() will throw an exception, so slightly safe than [], but not really going to do us much good 😄
19:48:53 <peter1138> Unless it's something other than "variable - ", then actually no, it doesn't happen a lot.
19:49:15 <_glx_> I remember seeing it often
19:50:08 <peter1138>
19:51:00 <_glx_> the 5 switches don't count 😉
19:51:02 <peter1138> Just industries and stations. The - 0x80 in newgrf_engine.cpp doesn't count, that's a different reason.
19:52:09 <_glx_> looks like only cargo stuff uses this construct
19:52:30 <peter1138> station goods one is the same thing
19:52:59 <peter1138> On the other hand, there are a lot more of those. ...
19:54:11 <peter1138> 8C to EC, with 8 vars, so thats the old 12 cargo types 🙂
19:54:44 <peter1138> It's kinda different I guess.
19:59:26 <peter1138> <> Python eh...
20:01:20 <peter1138> <>
20:01:20 <peter1138> LOL
20:01:35 <peter1138> "Source model: Open-source[disputed]"
20:02:08 <andythenorth> flat docks maybe? 🙂
20:02:40 <_glx_> oh the python stuff is the same with mingw (they also use pacman)
20:03:18 <peter1138> JGR gets some... interesting support questions.
20:03:43 <peter1138> "This feature that's only in JGRPP doesn't work in vanilla" ... "..."
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20:10:58 <F_Quin> Hi All
20:34:17 <debdog> o/
20:37:06 <andythenorth> goes it extend GS?
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20:56:55 <peter1138> Have you?
20:57:03 <peter1138> Is there a PR?
21:02:49 <andythenorth> haven't yet
21:02:57 <andythenorth> maybe I should give up on GS
21:03:03 <andythenorth> grf is more fun 🙂
21:03:54 <peter1138> You could extend NewGRF.
21:03:59 <peter1138> Or extend company shares.
21:04:04 <peter1138> Or extend penis extensions.
21:11:33 <andythenorth> I could
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21:19:27 <F_Quin> people actually use IRC nowadays?
21:19:35 <F_Quin> never knew this
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21:27:50 <_glx_> most of us switched to discord
21:32:48 <pickpacket> IRC ftw
21:33:09 <pickpacket> I also use discord, but I much prefer IRC if possible. A lot faster and leaner
21:33:47 <pickpacket> that said I really wouldn't enjoy IRC as much if I didn't use a instance
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21:34:48 <olionkey> no matter how new something is there is always going to be that one guy who is using the old system
21:34:55 <olionkey> Think there is an XKCD comic aboutit
21:35:44 <olionkey>
21:36:29 <pickpacket> âĪïļ
21:39:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] glx22 opened pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target
21:41:03 <_glx_> of course editing python via github is not a good idea
21:42:37 <F_Quin> I would hang but I think its only devs here as well as long time community members
21:42:54 <F_Quin> I'm not on the fourums so I think I'll go
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21:45:23 <_glx_> weird, black passed while flake8 failed for line length
21:46:31 <_glx_> oh ok black workflow doesn't work
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21:49:33 <_glx_> hmm no it works, but for some reason black seem to ignore -l (even locally)
21:58:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] glx22 updated pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target
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22:08:02 <pickpacket> F_Quin left :(
22:08:43 * pickpacket is relatively new and would love some other new people to hang around
22:10:33 <frosch123> also noone is on the forums :p
22:10:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain commented on pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
22:10:43 <truebrain> you asked for this _glx_ 😄
22:11:07 <truebrain> _glx_: `-l` does work, but not all lines are done. PEP-8 allows lines to be longer, but flake8 is like: NO
22:11:17 <truebrain> happens with strings, for example. Black doesn't know hot to split them
22:11:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] glx22 commented on pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
22:11:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain commented on pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
22:12:21 <pickpacket> frosch123: I am ðŸĪŠ
22:14:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] glx22 updated pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
22:15:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain approved pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
22:15:31 <truebrain> tnx for fixing this _glx_ 🙂
22:16:45 <_glx_> it's nice, on push I get a remainder about the dependabot PR
22:17:37 <truebrain> it is a bit odd it didn't make a PR for it .. it did for some other repos ..
22:17:45 <truebrain> but okay, in 2 weeks we update everything at once \o/
22:18:28 <_glx_> well opened 20 hours ago
22:19:05 <truebrain> the security advisory; but not a PR to update it 🙂
22:19:14 <truebrain> pressing a button does so, but some other repos it did it automatically .. guess org-settings
22:19:41 <truebrain> it is a CVE that doesn't apply to us anyway
22:22:05 <_glx_> and the 2 existing dependabot PR are the same
22:22:32 <truebrain> yeah; will be fixed next month 🙂
22:22:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] glx22 merged pull request #186: Fix: "Jump to today" target in weblogs
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22:41:37 <peter1138>
22:41:37 <peter1138> Hmm :/
22:42:09 <debdog> StackIt!
22:42:12 <peter1138> So the issue there is my WSL Debian install is... eating space and not freeing it.
22:43:56 <debdog> apt-get autoclean
22:44:16 <debdog> or, if that has not much effect, apt-get clean
22:44:31 <debdog> ...for a start
22:45:31 <peter1138> So WSL uses a virtual disk image which automatically grows. As such, it doesn't automatically shrink just because files are removed.
22:45:39 <peter1138> WSL2 anyway...
22:47:14 <debdog> ahh
22:47:31 <debdog> bad WSL!
22:47:40 <debdog> </dogtalk>
22:47:42 <peter1138> I guess I make branches out of all my stashes, then push to github, then delete and rebuild it...
22:50:07 <_glx_> seems you can compact it with diskpart
22:56:57 <peter1138> Hmm
22:57:05 <peter1138> How do I fixed newgrf_debug_data.h:277?
22:58:05 <peter1138> It's a list that references the industry produced/accepted arrays... which in this branch are no longer always 16 entries...
22:58:48 <peter1138> NIProperty doesn't appear to be used anywhere else.
22:59:19 <peter1138> So it looks like a generic framework to do something which then only has one user 😄
23:01:44 <peter1138> (I found a 10GB Business Central docker image which I'm no longer using, so that freed up a bit of space :D)
23:20:23 <_glx_> someone made a tool for that <>