IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-06-26
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05:32:38 <andythenorth> usually I can find an example in an existing GS
05:33:10 <andythenorth> these flags are too new for that 😛
05:48:21 <pickpacket> dP: is it even possible to run a deficit low enough to underflow without going bankrupt?
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07:08:52 <peter1138> Hmm. Selecting fallback font by "family, style" is gives me a sans-serif font for Chinese Simplified and a serif font for Chinese Traditional. Oy...
07:22:04 <peter1138> Searching for the heaviest weight is not ideal, as that may be bolder than bold...
07:37:54 <dP> pickpacket: well, idk, they were for sure running deficit for 20 years
07:38:06 <dP> but it was not that big until it wasn't
07:38:21 <dP> missed the time yesterday, will start replay again
07:38:37 <dP> hopefully it'll show something
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08:00:57 <pickpacket> I thought you went bankrupt after a few months of deficit
08:01:15 <pickpacket> how do get a replay of the game?
08:15:00 <peter1138> Save every issued network command
08:16:00 <peter1138> (And make sure you play it back in exactly the same version)
08:19:45 <pickpacket> oh! didn't know it was a multiplayer game
08:20:34 <peter1138> Well, you can remove the word "network" and it's the same principle.
08:20:55 <peter1138> Commands are issued at specific points, so if you record them, you can replay them.
08:21:51 <shoter> I am a developer of admin port library for OpenTTD and I am wondering if there is any workflow to know in advance that admin port network version is going to change.
08:21:51 <shoter> Is there a way to know in advance when NETWORK_GAME_ADMIN_VERSION changes?
08:22:21 <pickpacket> peter1138: how do you record those commands?
08:25:47 <LordAro> pickpacket: desync debug mode is the vanilla way of doing it
08:26:00 <LordAro> i believe dP has some sort of custom implementation though
08:30:42 <LordAro> shoter: as far as i know, the answer is "no". admin port format is strongly linked to the command format... which is very version specific
08:30:46 <LordAro> we're aware this isn't great
08:35:16 <pickpacket> follow PR discussions on github, maybe?
08:35:48 <LordAro> that's a terrible answer
08:36:26 <pickpacket> but based on what you said I assume it's the best way
08:36:37 <m3henry> jank but improved answer, pull the commit history and grep the log for changes to that line
08:38:45 <LordAro> m3henry: NETWORK_GAME_ADMIN_VERSION isn't the only indicator of compatibility though
08:38:55 <LordAro> that just defines the format version
08:39:21 <m3henry> what are the other ones?
08:39:49 <LordAro> it's just "does the function signature of any of these functions change"
08:40:47 <dP> yeah, technically any change to any command parameters affects admin protocol in some way
08:40:58 <dP> though I think there was a warning somewhere that they're not stable
08:41:09 <shoter> I did not need any particular change on my end usually if packets remain the same. It is first time in few years when I am forced to make a change to accomodate new version of admin port
08:44:26 <dP> oh, 10709 changed command enum, yeah, that's kind of annoying...
08:49:36 <truebrain> shoter: honestly, we should have changed the admin-version; seems nobody realised that at the time 🙂
08:49:57 <truebrain> w00p, we did realise \o/
08:50:04 <shoter> so at least that's good 😄
08:50:04 <truebrain> sometimes I am amazed ....
08:50:11 <peter1138> Huh, why is this if condition not working :/
08:50:42 <truebrain> we once tried a maillist to inform people, but as we change things so rarely, it never really worked
08:50:48 <peter1138> `if (href) { console.log(!href); }` is logging `false`
08:51:12 <truebrain> be more explicit in your if-statement! 🙂
08:51:19 <peter1138> Yeah it would log false...
08:51:45 <truebrain> like `if (!!href)` 😛
08:51:50 <truebrain> (which is terribly Javascript btw)
08:52:20 <truebrain> `if (1) console.log(!1) ` logs false too btw 🙂
08:52:22 <peter1138> It seems the value is "undefined" instead of being actually undefined.
08:53:44 <peter1138> Yeah, but test of the if was wrong, and yet I noticed that just after posting it...
08:54:03 <truebrain> we are awesome rubber duckies 🙂
08:54:16 <peter1138> So it's "undefined" but not undefined. Great, javascript...
08:54:57 <truebrain> be be explicit, be explicit! 😛 It is more common to do things like `if (href === undefined)` or `if (href !== undefined)` .. the `if (href)` is just not that common to use, honestly 🙂
08:55:24 <truebrain> I only know of Python that has `if href:` strongly defined .. most other languages have weird edgecases 😛
08:56:50 <peter1138> That's what I mean. `if (href === undefined)` isn't matching, but `if (href == 'undefined')` is
08:57:36 <truebrain> lol .. that is just .. annoying 😄
08:57:44 <shoter> truebrain: Btw why are people doing in OpenTTD code `!!boolean_value`?
08:57:44 <shoter> Is it to ensure that `!!boolean_value` has either `0` or `1`? Because `true` can be anything else than `0`
08:58:06 <shoter> I was just so suprised by such if statement that I tried to understand why is it being done in such way
08:58:23 <pickpacket> it’s a common thing in C as well
08:58:33 <truebrain> it is old C in most cases; these days we tend to be more explicit
08:58:44 <truebrain> as changing "some integer" to a boolean is rarely a good idea 🙂
08:58:56 <truebrain> (there are exceptions; but back in the C-day it was much more common)
08:59:36 <m3henry> A colleague of mine had never seen it before last week, which I found rather suprising
09:00:01 <m3henry> He's not a greybeard, but definitely a fair few years my senior
09:00:14 <shoter> In my field of work (C#) I've never seen such statement
09:01:22 <truebrain> shoter: and keep it that way 😛
09:04:52 <peter1138> And of course, it's because I stored undefined in a place (dataset) that only understands strings.
09:06:14 <pickpacket> m3henry, shoter: I saw it a few times in old C projects some 15 years ago. It’s not something you do in modern languages like C#, or modern projects in any language for that matter
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09:18:59 <andythenorth> pickpacket: python that generates squirrel
09:43:07 <peter1138> "Oh cool, this nearly works now" "Oh crap, keyboard input..."
09:43:48 <peter1138> Fuck browsers, I shouldn't have to implement nice UI myself 😭
09:47:39 <pickpacket> my friends keep telling me I should get a new computer. I don't understand why.
09:49:48 <peter1138> Being able to use a good development environment simplifies 1, 2 and 3 in one go.
09:54:47 <pickpacket> of course it does :D
09:55:02 <peter1138> Ah yes, and `<optgroup>` doesn't support nesting.
10:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ask andy about compile times
10:34:23 <andythenorth> cycle times are one of the highest impact items for development
10:34:51 <andythenorth> some programmers are able to hold all the state in their head, and only need to compile once an hour
10:35:10 <andythenorth> so a 10 minute compile is fine, coffee break, eye rest, thinking time
10:35:57 <andythenorth> but for anything with interfaces, e.g. network code, remote data fetch/store, and above all UI
10:36:04 <andythenorth> rapid cycles are essential
10:36:42 <andythenorth> oops, I did serious, sorry 😦
10:36:58 <andythenorth> peter1138: selects are horrific, but at least they're simple 😛
10:37:12 <peter1138> They're too simple, that's the problem.
10:38:17 <peter1138> Well, not long til breaklunchfast.
10:38:35 <andythenorth> I had cheese and a orange
10:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> could be worse, could be fastlunchbreak
11:33:22 <peter1138> Alright, I have sausage roll and... a salad.
12:17:28 <pickpacket> what do you guys do for a living?
12:18:10 <pickpacket> I'm a devops engineer, whatever that means. Today it means that I'm trying to stay awake watching Azure classes. And they use *powershell*... eeeewwwww...
12:35:09 <pickpacket> peter1138: full time OpenTTD dev? ;)
12:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is the definition of "a salad"? a mix of foods that isn't cooked?
12:37:14 <truebrain> something that suggests healthy
12:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i know plenty of "salads" that are probably not "healthy"
12:38:11 <peter1138> For me it's something that has lettuce of some variety as its basis.
12:38:20 <peter1138> But, yeah "pasta salad" is anything but.
12:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, the pasta better be cooked before being mixed in :p
13:28:30 <peter1138> What's the green, pasta?
13:29:21 <peter1138> Looks similar (but not the same) to carbonara
13:31:16 <Rubidium_> there doesn't need to be "greens" in a salad
13:32:39 <Rubidium_> although Brittish dictionaries tend to lean more towards vegetables, whereas American dictionaries don't as heavily
13:33:11 <ahyangyi> As long as potato salad is a salad
13:33:47 <ahyangyi> Or fruit salad, they don't have greens inside either
13:33:55 <Rubidium_> "small pieces of food (such as pasta, meat, fruit, or vegetables) usually mixed with a dressing (such as mayonnaise) or set in gelatin"
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13:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the green part is pickles
13:36:55 <peter1138> Ahh, yeah, I can see that now.
13:37:36 <pickpacket> shoter: I've never tried C#. Done... uhm... a few other languages in my career though 😅
13:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (dictionary says "pickles" is an american word, but doesn't list a british equivalent)
13:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but... everything that is 33% mayonnaise can't be healthy :p
13:45:45 <pickpacket> Eddi|zuHause: unless you suffer from mayonnaise deficiency
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13:57:27 <m3henry> Personal pet peeve: unsalted salad
14:11:21 <ahyangyi> *insalata non salata*
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14:32:37 <FLHerne> unsalted salad implies you put salt on salad normally?
14:32:47 <FLHerne> seems a strange idea to me
14:39:03 <emperorjake> All salad dressings include salt, if you've been eating undressed salads you're missing out
14:41:54 <belajalilija> emperorjake: ^^¨
14:48:51 <truebrain> OpenTTD GitHub received a crazy amount of stars in the last 24h .. where did someone publish something about OpenTTD? 🙂
14:54:00 <Rubidium_> did reddit open up again or something?
14:54:35 <AlphaGamma3521> I guess everyone is reading Maizuire's blog again
14:59:43 <m3henry> "salad" comes from latin: herba salata (salted herb)
15:00:27 <AlphaGamma3521> Thanks for the info
15:00:51 <peter1138> Hmm, so I found how to put BS5 colours back to the same as BS4... but do I want to...
15:24:18 <andythenorth> do they change much?
15:24:25 <andythenorth> I haven't ported anything to 5 yet
15:24:45 <andythenorth> but you can probably just copy old theme vars to v5 theme
15:26:02 <peter1138> Basically that, yes, but my environment was not set up to build it from source. I only referenced the prebuilt minified css.
15:26:31 <andythenorth> well you can always write crude over-rides 😛
15:26:35 <peter1138> But I think any update I make to it will overwrite my changes.
15:26:58 <peter1138> Yeah, if you want to write absolutely loads of them.
15:27:16 <peter1138> background colours, text colours, border colours...
15:27:16 <andythenorth> does 5 declare variables in css yet?
15:27:22 <andythenorth> tokens or whatever they're called in css
15:29:37 <peter1138> But there's a lot of variables you'd need to override.
15:41:54 <jfs> oh, I fell for it again, changes in other parts of the code breaking my code
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15:46:57 <peter1138> Out of date already 🙂
15:50:01 <Rubidium_> oh... forgotten `git rebase --continue` before the push :(
15:57:01 <Rubidium_> grmbl... should've just ran the script again
16:05:00 <peter1138> Silly bootstrap documentation. Link to "latest" version is often nothing of the sort.
16:09:12 <pickpacket> linking failed because...?
16:11:26 <peter1138> Killed. You may be running out of memory...
16:12:53 <pickpacket> oh! I had this problem some other time... what did I do then? hmmm
16:14:24 <pickpacket> that was on my RPi though. I had no trouble compiling this a few days ago
16:15:00 <pickpacket> huh. Appears to work now
16:17:24 <Rubidium_> maybe dmesg/syslog/something similar can shed some light why it got killed
16:17:48 <pickpacket> May have a look if it doesn't work now
16:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to change some configure options for faster (less efficient) compiles
16:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> like, disabling LTO
16:20:03 <ahyangyi> 99% of the time when some process gets killed, it's OOM
16:20:11 <ahyangyi> in my experience at least
16:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having some issue where processes get killed for OOM, even though there's plenty of swap free... and i can't find out what the real limit is it is hitting
16:21:40 <jfs> yeah disabling LTO (link-time optimization) is probably what you need to do
16:22:29 <jfs> since that requires the compiler to load the complete program into memory and wiggle it around a lot, and that requires tons of memory
16:24:44 <pickpacket> my changes work! I'm so happy
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16:27:03 <pickpacket> first commit changed so that a company can only buy exclusive rights is no company currently holds them
16:27:29 <pickpacket> second commit disabled the option to do so in the GUI if another company holds them
16:27:38 <pickpacket> now going to have a look at bribery
16:28:33 <pickpacket> the idea is that if you bribe a town where someone (else than you) has exclusive transport rights and that bribe succeeds then those rights will disappear
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16:40:28 <peter1138> Yeah that's not really correct 🙂
16:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be two separate bribe options
17:07:21 <pickpacket> Why? I thought it sounded pretty smart to incorporate in the usual bribe
17:07:55 <pickpacket> having ”bribe for X” and ”bribe for Y” seems more confusing to me
17:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't thought much about it, was just throwing it out there
17:09:17 <pickpacket> peter1138: it’s not correct now, but if I make a PR of it and get it approved then it will be 😉
17:10:20 <pickpacket> Eddi|zuHause: I think it sounds like a pretty great idea, tbh. Makes sense that underhanded methods need to be used to shred a contract
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18:43:04 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:13:50 <andythenorth> I should write GS
19:13:53 <andythenorth> but I am playing tanks
19:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> we make choices every day.
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20:39:20 <michi_cc[d]> Hmm, JGR seems to have been become an invisible ghost on the IRC bridge... 🙂
21:10:03 <dwfreed> if he hasn't spoken since the last time the discord bridge restarted, then he won't be on IRC until then
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21:24:34 <sinas128> a man shrouded in mystery
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21:51:34 <peter1138> Might be the underscores in his Discord username.
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22:00:16 <dwfreed> So I guess truebrain will have to figure it out then
22:00:57 <truebrain> name starting with a `_` .. that is new 🙂
22:01:00 <truebrain> will fix tomorrow 😛
22:03:02 <dwfreed> yep, everybody with usernames starting with _ seems to be broken
22:04:08 <truebrain> yeah, starting with `_` isn't allowed by IRC 🙂
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22:05:05 <truebrain> by IRC library? I don't know 😛 But that is holding it back 😄
22:05:12 <truebrain> there are 3 users that can't connect to the IRC network 🙂
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22:06:27 <dwfreed> your irc library may not allow it, but ircds do
22:06:38 <truebrain> I really don't care about that semantic 😄
22:07:31 <dwfreed> I think the only characters allowed in nicks that they aren't allowed to start with is numbers
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22:19:50 <dwfreed> oh yeah, - is not allowed to lead
22:20:22 <LordAro> regex looks ok though
22:21:40 <LordAro> can't see anything obvious in the irc library that does any sort of sanitisation at all
22:22:29 <LordAro> literally just issues a NICK command
22:27:29 <truebrain> owh, it already removed `_` .. so why is this an issue ... 🙂
22:28:53 <truebrain> ah, no, it removes everything but `_` .. okay, hmm ..
22:29:10 <truebrain> sadly, it doesn't actually log anything about this, so it is a bit of guess work 😛
22:30:32 <truebrain> need to run it in debug to see what actually happens
22:30:54 <truebrain> and I don't want to! 🙂
22:33:22 <truebrain> bit sad, I forgot to route the logs to Cloudwatch for this service, so even in debug mode, I won't be able to see the logs 😛
22:33:25 <truebrain> and fixing that is just annoying
22:35:00 <truebrain> no, that is for message relaying
22:35:14 <truebrain> NICK happens in a different path
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22:43:01 <truebrain> funny, it works when I test it locally 😄
22:45:34 <truebrain> I see zero reason why this wouldn't work on production .. lol
22:47:15 <kamnet> _jgr_: I was as well. I was surprised nobody else snagged kamnet - in Asia it's a hugely popular name.
22:47:21 <truebrain> now I am a bit afraid what kind of Discord weirdness this is ...
22:47:39 <truebrain> hmm ... can I get my test-bot in here for a bit .. I guess I can ..
22:50:52 <truebrain> you can't have two bots with the same identifier active at the same time, ofc 🙂
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22:58:37 <truebrain> meh; in general this username has been a bit of an issue ofc ... let me try to make a change, and we can see if we like it or not
23:00:19 <truebrain> owh, I am a peanut .. I was testing the wrong thing.. haha; owh well, nevertheless ..
23:00:54 <truebrain> indeed, I cannot join IRC with a `_` as start of my nickname
23:03:48 <truebrain> dwfreed: turns out, it is not allowed in the ident
23:04:39 <truebrain> `(Invalid username [~_test])`
23:04:43 <truebrain> you get when you try 🙂
23:05:25 <truebrain> and this IRC library uses your nickname as username, which seems like a sane thing to do
23:05:29 <truebrain> but ... yeah ... you can't 😄
23:05:46 <truebrain> luckily for me, there is another bug in my code, which prevents these connections from retrying
23:07:20 <_glx> ah yeah even with this alternate nick I still use glx as username
23:07:22 <truebrain> so basically, in `USER`, it cannot start with a `_` .. I wonder if there are other rules ..
23:12:10 <truebrain> from what I can read in the RFC, it should be allowed, to have a username start with a `_`
23:12:16 <truebrain> seems usernames are more relaxed than nicknames even
23:13:45 <truebrain> hmm, no, seems the specs are just a bit ambigious, and they don't actually define the limitations of `username` (or `user`, depending on which RFC you look at)
23:13:50 <truebrain> great! So I don't know what to filter for 🙂
23:14:07 <truebrain> dwfreed: would you happen to have an idea what is allowed and what is not?
23:14:30 <truebrain> is stripping out `_` alone enough?
23:19:15 <truebrain> I think you can have more than one user with the same username on IRC
23:19:43 <truebrain> yeah, DorpsGek exists 3 times with the same username
23:22:26 <truebrain> could really use some expert input on #194, as I am rather unsure if there are additional constraints 🙂
23:22:59 <truebrain> In other news, for when I am done with the infra migration, I think I found a nice way to get us all back our correct names (`TrueBrain`, `glx`, `peter1138`, etc).
23:23:02 <peter1138> "x=x" vs "x = x" bugs me 😉
23:23:18 <truebrain> as on Discord we now have a concept called "global usernames"
23:23:25 <truebrain> peter1138: write an angry letter to Guido 😛
23:24:28 <peter1138> Yeah, I figured it was a language constraint, as I can't imagine you doing that otherwise!
23:26:08 <truebrain> if there are more conditions, we will add them .. but let's first get everyone to talk on IRC again 😛
23:30:14 <truebrain> so bridge will reset in a sec .. let's hope everyone can read what _glx_ writes after 😛
23:31:54 <truebrain> not YET 😛 It is slow 🙂
23:32:09 <truebrain> just wait for the massive IRC disconnects 😄
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23:34:05 <truebrain> talk ! TAAALLLKKK ! 😛
23:34:30 <truebrain> darn it ... still nothing?
23:38:06 <truebrain> developing this late is not smart 😛
23:38:20 <truebrain> I can't test this code currently, but "it looks fine" 🙂
23:39:55 <truebrain> and if the IRC ghost agrees with that statement, we are just going to roll it out to production and see what it does 🙂
23:41:23 <truebrain> so 5 more minutes _glx_ , and you should have a voice again 😛
23:42:13 <truebrain> what is funny is that highlights are translated to your IRC nick
23:42:17 <truebrain> but you just aren't there 😛
23:44:30 <truebrain> it will find a valid name 😉
23:45:09 <truebrain> yeah, and after that it starts to add numbers
23:45:12 <truebrain> it will find a valid name 🙂
23:45:46 <truebrain> on IRC it looks like I am talking to myself; a normal day in the office, basically 😛
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23:46:32 <truebrain> think carefully about your first words 😄
23:46:54 <truebrain> stupid IRC and its little rules ....
23:47:17 <truebrain> right, way too late ... time to get some sleep!
23:47:52 <_glx_> oh but indeed `glx` as discord username would have been fine (it was fine with glx#7256)
23:48:27 <truebrain> the important thing is that you can talk with LordAro again 😄
23:49:16 <_glx_> strange it was not noticed earlier
23:51:44 <truebrain> most talk is between Discord users these days .. so that might have been part of it
23:51:59 <_glx_> oh the restart of thursday killed me
23:52:03 <truebrain> but yeah .. you lost your voice on IRC 5 days ago .. sorry mate .. did not expect there to be different rules for `username` 😛
continue to next day ⏵
