IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-06-22
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00:24:40 <debdog> I think I'll stick with OpenGFX
02:37:49 <k-man> if the coverate of a station doesn't cover the whole forest, does it still work 100% efficiently, or do i need another station the other side to cover the other side of the forrest?
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03:46:03 <dwfreed> TrueBrain: discord bridge just restarted
04:46:38 <k-man> are you an openttd player?
05:00:28 <k-man> why is steelmill not fundable? it doesn't show up as an option to fund that industry
05:03:20 <debdog> hmm, Steel Mill is here. but that might depend on NewGRFs active
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05:03:33 <emperorjake> Are you in the correct climate?
05:14:00 <k-man> I think i didn't understand how that window worked. thanks
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05:23:07 <peter1138> Okay, so focus closing made sense, but focus stealing turns out to be a problem 😦
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05:42:59 <peter1138> It's also been a problem for a while with a gamescript window popping up and cancelling whatever build you had active
06:03:30 <peter1138> Urgh, I thought maybe only close if focus was lost due to interaction (clicking, keypress) instead of just a window opening up. But then once it's lost focus once that's it...
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06:24:57 <pickpacket> peter1139: speaking of: if I have a build tool open and pinned it's a little annoying that it's still closed when I open another build tool
07:23:06 <peter1138> pickpacket's browser
07:23:58 <pickpacket> peter1138: :O How did you get that screenshot!? Have you installed spyware on my computer!?
07:24:45 <peter1138> My main argument against keeping the build toolbars open together is hotkey conflicts, but that's not much if you don't ever use the hotkeys (how...)
07:25:07 <pickpacket> oh! Learning the hotkeys is on my todo list
07:25:18 <pickpacket> I desperately need it
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07:26:20 <merni> the only time I use hotkeys is when I hit them accidentally when trying to name a train/station :p
07:26:20 <ahyangyi> I only remember 123456QWE, time to learn more hotkeys :S
07:26:39 <peter1138> The default is simply 1 through 9, then some extras that need learning.
07:26:58 <ahyangyi> ( here's the proof I can't count beyond 6)
07:27:01 <peter1138> But S for signals, B for bridges, T for tunnel.
07:27:25 <merni> ahyangyi: One... two... five!
07:27:55 <peter1138> R for remove, D for destroy (although that actually opens the landscaping toolbar even if another toolbar has the function)
07:27:58 <ahyangyi> peter1138: Nice, learning these three should save me much time
07:28:12 <ahyangyi> oh, and I do use D a lot
07:28:39 <ahyangyi> it's so natural that I forgot the key. I can just press on that magical button when I want to destroy things 😄
07:38:24 <emperorjake> I use A-S-R all the time
08:10:00 <pickpacket> peter1138: what's the difference between remove and destroy in this case?
08:11:48 <ahyangyi> Destroy is to remove everything on a grid; remove is to remove one particular thing
08:12:28 <ahyangyi> like removing a signal while keeping the railroad in tact
09:01:04 <peter1138> That's... interesting wrapping.
09:04:51 <dP> I've ran out of keys on the keyboard to bind for hotkeys xD
09:18:19 <jfs> Do you have a macro pad you can use to get F13-F24 with?
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09:20:21 <truebrain> peter1138: lol ... I had similar effects with my survey popup 😛
09:20:31 <truebrain> the part where padding is added after the width is calculated 😄
09:22:57 <LordAro> truebrain: you seem to have lost your 'T'
09:23:44 <truebrain> yeah, Discord usernames rolled out
09:23:53 <truebrain> and they didn't allow capitals ..
09:23:56 <truebrain> so I am all small now 😦
09:24:06 <truebrain> over time all Discord usernames will become small boys
09:24:36 <truebrain> at least the usernames will be unique .. so that is helpful 😛
09:24:53 <truebrain> reminds me I had to check why the bridge crashed last night
09:26:12 <truebrain> I am so happy if I migrated this to the new infra .. at least there I can debug what happened
09:26:41 <truebrain> owh, I think it went OOM
09:26:59 <truebrain> do you see what I see? (in a singing tone)
09:28:45 <ahyangyi> Is that a memory leak or just Python garbage collector being lazy?
09:28:58 <truebrain> no, the GC is not that lazy
09:29:08 <truebrain> when memory runs out, the GC is preasured, so it will free what it can
09:29:19 <ahyangyi> Oh yea, the x axis is date
09:29:37 <ahyangyi> the GC can't be so lazy as to do nothing in a month
09:29:57 <truebrain> I think it is related to how many people are connected or something
09:30:06 <truebrain> but I also disconnect people if they have been idle long enough
09:30:40 <truebrain> in all honesty, I didn't actually gave it that much memory to play with ..
09:31:45 <truebrain> (96 MiB of RAM it is allowed to allocate)
09:36:11 <LordAro> looks too monotonic to be related to the number of connections
09:36:35 <LordAro> looks like 1 bump a day
09:38:30 <peter1138> truebrain: In this case there is no extra padding added.
09:38:55 <peter1138> So it might be the layouter.
09:40:35 <dP> jfs: I don't even have have a numpad
09:41:08 <dP> I have a programmable keyboard though so I could in theory add some more layers just too lazy to code it
09:41:26 <dP> and it gets quite confusing with more layers, especially since I don't play that often
09:42:28 <peter1138> 32 key stream deck, complete with OpenTTD icons on it.
09:43:45 <peter1138> Problem is those types of devices are a bit awkward if you are actually using your keyboard as well. Got to move your arm...
09:44:41 <peter1138> Gah, HTML input type=color doesn't support no value.
09:49:56 <pickpacket> peter1138: what happened to petern?
09:51:13 <pickpacket> (I had to change my discord name from BW to therealbw... Not even TheRealBW)
09:51:58 <peter1138> By the time I got around to setting my username, someone already had "petern", or "petererer" which is the other name I often use. Fortunately "peter1138" was available, which surprisingly isn't a given.
09:52:35 <orudge> Funnily enough, my IRC name has remained the same for around 23 years with no issue :D
09:53:47 <peter1138> Blessed with a long-but-still-single-syllable last name, yes.
09:54:54 <peter1138> Neither Twitter nor Reddit peter1138s are me.
09:59:12 <peter1138> I wonder, that dot on a new line might be related to the language being RTL but the string being LTR. Speculation.
10:05:40 <peter1138> Yeah, ItemizeBidi() splits it into two runs, "The current font is missing some of the characters used in the texts for this language. Using system fallback font instead" and "."
10:24:56 <truebrain> peter1138: yeah, that is what bidi does on most platforms from what I have seen .. a `.` is a rather special character there 🙂
10:41:25 <peter1138> Is it breakfast yet?
10:43:28 <Rubidium_> more like elevenses
11:30:27 <pickpacket> peter1138: should be lunch time for you now
11:34:58 <peter1138> Indeed. Guess what I have...
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11:46:30 <pickpacket> the discussion on exclusive transport rights did not go the direction I intended, though it *did* go the direction I assumed it would so I guess that's something
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11:47:37 <pickpacket> me: "I think X is broken. Here are two very simple alternatives that make it less broken.", forum: "How about these two million more complex alternatives?"
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11:56:45 <truebrain> hmm .. cleaning up the CDN is a bit tricky .. for nightlies we keep the sources around .. and on a CDN you pay for something like "List". I don't want to traverse every folder since 2004 every time we clean up, to find out it is already cleaned up 😛
12:06:08 <pickpacket> guys... how complex is our infrastructure and how big is our bus factor?
12:09:44 <LordAro> i do worry about that occasionally
12:10:55 <LordAro> in theory everything's in public repos (with secrets & access to secrets being appropriately secret)
12:11:09 <LordAro> but in practice... i'd still quite like to see a big document explaining how everything is linked together
12:12:55 <peter1138> It's self-documenting 🙂
12:13:17 <truebrain> that is the honest answer, yes 🙂
12:13:33 <truebrain> if the Infrastructure as Code is not documentation enough, I am pretty sure no document in the world will help you any further
12:14:52 <truebrain> well, s/in the world/docs written by me/ 😛
12:15:03 <truebrain> as it is basically: what is Pulumi? what is Nomad? what is AWS? etc 🙂
12:15:30 <pickpacket> I’ve never heard of Pulumi or Nomad 😝
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12:15:44 <talltyler> I was thinking about the bus factor when most of us were in Brussels 🙂
12:15:53 <truebrain> that would have been the end of OpenTTD 😛
12:16:06 <orudge> so at least I could have kept paying the bills :P
12:16:07 <talltyler> From a freak waffle shop explosion
12:16:10 <truebrain> orudge had all the keys to the castle!
12:16:12 <pickpacket> LordAro: how many can give access to these secrets?
12:16:38 <orudge> That said, I don't claim to understand much of our infrastructure these days, but I daresay I could figure it out :)
12:16:39 <truebrain> orudge: more than just bills .. you also have full access to everything 😛
12:16:51 <truebrain> orudge: you 100% could 🙂
12:17:07 <pickpacket> orudge: you have no idea how deeply grateful I am to you for handling the economy. The most boring part of any project 😆
12:18:13 <orudge> and if I should get hit by a bus, donations are in a bank account named 'OpenTTD'. I will however try to avoid buses for the foreseeable future :p
12:18:37 <truebrain> well, honestly, if you get hit by a bus, we are in a bit of trouble .. as I think the LLC is also only on your name? 🙂
12:19:04 <truebrain> so that will be annoying ... hopefully someone close to you understands IRC enough to tell us 😄
12:19:19 <truebrain> but yeah, just don't get hit by a bus plz
12:19:36 <orudge> Another company director can be appointed (ideally while I'm not dead) if anyone wishes to volunteer :D
12:20:04 <truebrain> well, I just read LordAro sometimes worry, so he might be the ideal person 😛
12:20:15 <truebrain> (and we closed the loop 😄 😛 )
12:24:29 <pickpacket> Wait what? Is there an LLC?
12:24:47 <orudge> There's OpenTTD Distribution Ltd
12:25:10 <pickpacket> Interesting. For billing purposes?
12:25:19 <LordAro> pickpacket: steam & codesigning certificate, iirc?
12:25:22 <orudge> which exists purely to distribute OpenTTD on certain platforms that require a legal entity (such as a company) to sign an agreement
12:25:28 <orudge> Steam, Apple, code signing certificate, really
12:25:34 <pickpacket> LordAro: ohhh. Makes sense
12:25:55 <orudge> It has assets of, I think, £4, the last time I did the accounts :D
12:26:19 <pickpacket> does the company have any need for funds? License fees or something?
12:26:50 <orudge> The only source of income for the company is me, on behalf of the OpenTTD project, basically just covering any expenses that the company incurs
12:27:05 <orudge> (primarily the Apple developer programme membership fee, certificates, etc)
12:27:26 <merni> orudge: let's get the company playing openttd
12:27:29 <orudge> Anything else (server expenses etc) are paid by me personally out of the OpenTTD funds
12:27:32 <merni> it'll have millions in a few years
12:30:57 <truebrain> `In 'cleanup.txt' are all the files this script wants to delete. Please validate this list and rerun this script with '--cleanup-confirm' to actually delete those files.`
12:31:19 <orudge> You could post the list and we could check it? :)
12:31:23 <truebrain> especially as it is a long long long long list this first time 🙂
12:32:07 <truebrain> orudge: I could .. but I also made a backup first 😛
12:32:42 <truebrain> and I didn't write the actual deleting part yet .. as I am scared 😛
12:33:50 <truebrain> I am sure I once upon a time already had a script for this, as up till 2019 everything is nice and clean ... lol
12:35:41 <orudge> all I see there is old nightlies, so seems fine :D
12:36:02 <truebrain> that "seems" part is the issue 😄
12:38:01 <peter1138> > ci/woodpecker/pr/woodpecker Pipeline failed
12:38:01 <peter1138> Having a CI checking things before merging is nice 😄
12:41:11 <truebrain> owh, and last nights Linux nightly isn't that much bigger than the one before, so I guess the binary isn't 200+ MiB 😄
12:41:48 <truebrain> now to wait for my backup to actually finish .. then we start the big S3 cleanup .. all that so I can migrate it to Cloudflare, and pay a lot less for bandwidth 😛
12:41:52 <peter1138> Hmm, my WSL virtual drive is getting a bit large 😦
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12:44:25 * orudge has been on IRC since before some folk here have been born, he suspects :P
12:54:30 <AlphaGamma3521> Great fan of yours
13:28:07 <truebrain> owh, the irony .. there seems to be a bug in AWS CLI, as the backup I was making from this S3, isn't .. correct. Files are in the wrong directory, sometimes 😄
13:30:37 <truebrain> right ... actually deleting files now ..... pam pam pammmm
13:41:57 <truebrain> okay ... now for openttd-nightlies ... that will take a while to crawl through all that 😛
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13:50:44 <truebrain> owh, hmm .. index.html is not updated correctly
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14:11:33 <truebrain> it isn't really quick, to catch up on 3 years of old files 😛
14:18:09 <truebrain> okay .. the script actually seems to work fine .. I still don't like deleting files from a CDN 🙂
14:21:24 <LordAro> keep everything forever!
14:23:31 <truebrain> 2020 and 2021 done ... this is taking for evvvaaaahhhhh
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14:35:32 <truebrain> right .. someone can review that if they like 😄
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17:18:50 <LordAro> truebrain: fun problem that will probably make you scream - somewhere, the internal docker IP range (172...) for a couple of servers is getting added to DNS, making sshing into them mildly more difficult than it should be
17:19:33 <truebrain> With an open mouth: how?
17:19:40 <truebrain> how does that even happen ...
17:19:44 <truebrain> EasyDNS installed? 😛
17:20:05 <LordAro> it's something to do with how we add linux servers to AD DNS
17:20:32 <truebrain> yeah, okay, I can already envision why this happens ... yeah, that is a bit annoying 😄
17:20:50 <truebrain> I also always love companies that use 172 for their internal network
17:20:55 <truebrain> that doesn't break at all with WSL, Docker, ... 😛
17:21:24 <LordAro> but it gets added to DNS all the same
17:23:44 <dwfreed> I mean, there's only 3 RFC1918 ranges applicable
17:24:12 <dwfreed> if anything, WSL, Docker, and others need to learn how to use a range that is not in use
17:24:35 <dwfreed> if anything they should just use 169.254 instead
17:27:43 <truebrain> like Windows isn't using that at all .. constantly ..
17:27:51 <truebrain> not sure, if I were Docker, I would avoid that range as the plague 😛
17:28:33 <truebrain> (169.254/16 is the zeroconf range .. you shouldn't have static IPs on a zeroconf range .. that is just asking for trouble :D)
18:38:09 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:52:26 <truebrain> 100GB cached, 115GB not .. so close ...
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19:47:54 <jfs> can I ask again for someone to review #7786 soon...
20:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> too many nested inversions :p
20:13:41 <truebrain> (I am not in a serious mood): 50/50. Either it happens or it doesn't 😛
20:20:07 <Rubidium_> well... welcome to bike-shedding. Everyone has an opinion about it. Have you thought about the simplest solution? Changing the description in the UI to mention "until another company buys exclusive rights"
20:20:54 <pickpacket> Rubidium_: any reason that solution would have a better chance at being accepted? 😂
20:21:31 <talltyler> Because that’s not a change, it’s just a better tooltip to describe how it already works
20:22:31 <talltyler> And better tooltips are _always_ welcome
20:24:00 <Rubidium_> the real question is: how do we want the town to behave? Given that you can already bribe them, they're not really thinking about integrity and that giving exclusive rights to another company is "fine"
20:24:32 <pickpacket> I mean that *would* be an improvement. Right now everyone I've talked to who hasn't used or seen it used before expect it to be a binding contract that lasts a year. They're surprised to learn that someone else can buy it whilst they have it.
20:24:57 <talltyler> Bike shedding about a change or new feature is sometimes inevitable, but you’ll generally get more if you start an open-ended discussion with people who don’t really understand the development process, and less if you open a PR that actually implements a solution you want.
20:25:28 <pickpacket> The opinions about the mechanic differ, but expectation and reality differ more.
20:25:57 <pickpacket> talltyler: yeah, I'm trying to get the discussion focused on whether or not my suggested change is an improvement or not
20:27:20 <pickpacket> I wasn't as clear about that as I should have been from the start, sadly
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20:29:14 <andythenorth> not sure how I can retrieve my save here
20:29:24 <andythenorth> grf has changed on disk
20:31:44 <peter1138> Build that version again :p
20:33:27 <andythenorth> save might be slightly broken as it was saved with newer grf
20:34:34 <pickpacket> "what could possibly go wrong?"
20:49:55 <sx66> I personally reccomend `soilent industries` `north korean faces` and `playable UFO's` mods lmao
20:52:26 <sx66> From other barrel. Maybe one day I'll release my experimental GRF that allows more than one company to transfer passengers / cargo from single station other than oil rig
20:53:02 <sx66> I mean like transfer between two or more companies
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21:04:04 <andythenorth> think I connected most things here
21:09:07 <talltyler> I made a Trade Center NewGRF that does that too 🙂
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21:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> pickpacket: well, "what are the chances this solution gets accepted" is probably the wrongest question you should ask. because the chances for each individual proposal are near 0 if there wasn't yet a decision made about the whole concept
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22:28:22 <peter1138> @rubidium, is DropDownListParamStringItem a candidate for StringParameters?
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23:05:47 <iqTop[m]> ^ A peace offering ^
23:25:07 <peter1138> Better screenshots 🙂
23:25:11 <iqTop[m]> Why not make currency codes universal?
23:25:40 <iqTop[m]> Or was that the proposal? Sorry/
23:26:28 <iqTop[m]> I just didn't know if they were the same thing.
23:29:31 <iqTop[m]> <iqTop[m]> "roads_smart_road.png" <- No comments on my (poor) attempt to make futuristic roads?
23:42:22 <iqTop[m]> sigh Can someone please just humor me? I actually put effort into the future roads, even if they look like crap currently.
continue to next day ⏵
