IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-06-19
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01:35:16 <Gadg8eer[m]> Does anyone want to join an OpenTTD Guilded server?
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07:21:38 <CK2347> petern: That's impressive
07:38:53 <pickpacket> That is indeed impressive. Some kind of race?
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08:30:47 <andythenorth> all these new grf features 🙂
08:30:59 <andythenorth> might have to start actually using version checks in my grfs 😛
08:44:45 <TrueBrain> 60% non-cache, 40% cached .. still growing 🙂
08:45:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: as long as you filled in in correctly in BaNaNaS .. I am sure you survive the few people not using that 😛
08:48:44 <CK2347> andythenorth: Bloat moment
08:59:49 <LordAro> TrueBrain: seems to be taking a while?
09:00:05 <TrueBrain> for caches to warm up? That is normal
09:00:12 <TrueBrain> Cloudflare caches in their POP
09:00:17 <TrueBrain> so you first need more than one request per file in a POP 🙂
09:00:41 <TrueBrain> So OpenGFX by now is pretty much cached in many places
09:09:00 <TrueBrain> every good CDN has many many datacenters all over the world, as close to the user as possible
09:09:04 <TrueBrain> those are called POPs
09:09:41 <TrueBrain> as you want to cache as close to the user as possible, to serve them the information as quickly as you can
09:40:20 <TrueBrain> `error parsing logpush job from resource: Key is missing` I love clear errors!
09:40:32 <petern> What's a generic term I can use instead of "export to Excel"...
09:41:11 <petern> Probably "export to spreadsheet", but that's SO LONG!
09:42:50 <petern> Font-awesome doesn't have a "spreadsheet" icon, but it does have an excel file icon. It's not great...
09:43:17 <petern> Could be taken to mean delete...
09:47:51 <TrueBrain> mostly Cloudflare documentation is pretty good .. but for LogPush filters they dropped the ball .. nowhere it mentions you have to add a `where` key .. lol
09:48:02 <TrueBrain> petern: it indeed is not great
10:04:02 <pickpacket> petern: export to csv instead?
10:22:18 <petern> Yes but I went to font-awesome because that's the system this stuff is already using.
10:22:47 <petern> Export to CSV when it is actually Excel is not that good 🙂
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10:36:36 <petern> I guess "Excel" is fine in that case anyway, heh.
10:44:00 <petern> Nearly salad time already :/
11:02:14 <LordAro> i do believe i am perilously close to andythenorth right now
11:03:49 <LordAro> closer than that, even
11:08:02 <TrueBrain> You are looking at his face?
11:10:41 <pickpacket> petern: I meant to export to csv instead of spreadsheet :)
11:11:19 <petern> Idealistically, yes, but there's a lot of stuff that CSV doesn't do.
11:14:40 <LordAro> TrueBrain: not quite that close
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11:16:32 <justanortherner> LordAro: In England?!
11:17:53 <LordAro> which was not true an hour ago
11:18:46 <justanortherner> No one wishes to be in England
11:24:48 <andythenorth> pickpacket: that's grf compatibility, not OpenTTD compatibility 🙂
11:25:40 <andythenorth> LordAro: should I be concerned about something?
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11:36:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: probably not
11:36:52 <justanortherner> andythenorth: I think it's Aro who should be concerned about you tbf....
11:37:35 <LordAro> (i am currently sat at a train station that i believe is fairly close to you)
11:38:29 <andythenorth> Parkway? Temple Meads?
11:39:02 <andythenorth> last train I went to catch there didn't arrive
11:39:10 <andythenorth> we had to go back to Temple Meads
11:39:18 <andythenorth> stuff and things in the Severn Tunnel
11:39:27 <justanortherner> You should get the 1222 train Aro
11:39:38 <justanortherner> It's only like... an hour and 10 mins down...
11:42:44 <petern> Looking at my audio levels thinking "nice, this album didn't succumb to the loudness wars" ...
11:42:58 <petern> I'm playing from vinyl. Of course it hasn't...
11:46:01 <LordAro> my train did in fact arrive
11:46:27 <LordAro> i'm sat on the floor, but still
11:51:04 <andythenorth> no it's my train
11:53:48 <TrueBrain> so ... Cloudflare has logpush, which pushes logs to a bucket for you to look at .. it claims to be of `.log.gz` .. turns out, it is not compressed at all 😛
11:56:27 <LordAro> justanortherner: one of them
12:00:21 <k-man> how do i click in a mini viewport and make the big map scroll to that location?
12:01:00 <justanortherner> LordAro: Coulda narrowed it down 😂
12:02:00 <glx[d]> There's a button for that near window title IIRC
12:11:36 <pickpacket> andythenorth: would grf compatibility mean to check if other active grfs are compatible?
12:13:24 <LordAro> justanortherner: i could have
12:18:05 <justanortherner> @LordAro looking at the time and the fact you're on the floor, did you happen to board the 1244 towards Edinburgh?
12:18:37 <TrueBrain> please stop doxing people
12:18:51 <TrueBrain> if people want to tell you stuff, that is fine; but please stay on this side of the line, tnx 🙂
12:22:57 <jfs-> petern: Export as table? Export tabular?
12:23:02 <LordAro> i will neither confirm nor deny
12:23:40 <petern> Nah, I stayed with Excel because it is actually an Excel file. I just dislike 'advertising' it 🙂
12:23:54 <LordAro> but also what TB said
12:24:09 <LordAro> i was vague about andy until he himself revealed that it was bristol
12:32:44 <k-man> why does my signal menu bar only have about half of what is pictured here?
12:33:21 <k-man> my signal selection bar doesn't seem to have the pre signals
12:33:25 <petern> Because you're not using an old version.
12:33:45 <petern> Block & pre-signals aren't needed for the average user, so they are hidden by default.
12:33:51 <k-man> ok. where can i read on the new signal goodness?
12:34:14 <k-man> i always used to like putting in the advanced signaling
12:34:31 <k-man> though its been so long since I played i can't remember how
12:35:02 <petern> If you can't remember you probably don't need to 🙂
12:35:32 <petern> But on the signal window, there's an expand button on the top right. That might expand your choices, if you really want.
12:35:57 <k-man> ok so i need to read up on path signals?
12:36:38 <petern> Probably. They're not new any more. They work a lot better than pre-signals did for the normal usecases.
12:36:52 <LordAro> they've not been new for.. 15 years?
12:37:10 <k-man> LordAro: ok ok! no need to rub it in
12:37:48 <k-man> i'm reading. it looks good
12:38:33 <k-man> how do i delete a signal?
12:38:46 <k-man> far out i can't remember how to do anything
12:39:49 <petern> With the signal tool selected, also select the bulldozer tool (default hotkey is R)
12:40:44 <k-man> i think i'm too tired. I'll have another crack another day. thanks guys
12:50:49 <TrueBrain> sorry (not sorry) about removing `@seen` 😦
12:51:39 <petern> Is that really all there is to it?
12:51:55 <TrueBrain> couldn't believe that myself 😛
12:52:25 <TrueBrain> ah, no, found a second place
12:59:50 <TrueBrain> now I need to think how I am going to copy the log-files from the old DorpsGek to the new .. hmmmmmmm
13:02:20 <LordAro> so what are the log files needed for, if not that?
13:02:48 <LordAro> oh, DorpsGek does them too?
13:03:05 <TrueBrain> as no other bot was capable of doing it properly anymore 😛
13:03:19 <TrueBrain> not sure anyone actually still uses it ... but okay 🙂
13:04:26 <andythenorth> pickpacket: it's check against older versions of the same grf, some are savegame safe, some are not
13:07:14 <TrueBrain> LordAro: didn't you use that link a while ago yourself btw?! 😛
13:07:20 <TrueBrain> to dig something up from the archive 😄
13:10:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, i didn't know it was DorpsGek doing it though
13:10:15 <LordAro> probably obvious if i'd given it any thought
13:10:18 <TrueBrain> ah; well, now you know! 🙂
13:16:27 <TrueBrain> and guess what ... discord.com doesn't have IPv6 support 😛
13:16:34 <TrueBrain> this is just so sillyyyyyyyy
13:17:14 <TrueBrain> yeah, let's go back to IRC, unacceptable
13:19:00 <peter1139> I can't see that reaction :-)
13:19:10 <TrueBrain> so how did you know it was there?! 😛
13:34:59 <TrueBrain> owh, I remember vaguely that Discord banned Cloudflare Workers from interacting with their API .. we will see if that is true or not 😛
13:37:10 <TrueBrain> that seems to no longer hold truth .. good 🙂
13:37:50 <TrueBrain> right .. now all I have to think about is how to transfer the logs .. hmmmmm
13:44:06 <petern> For some reason we have a Squarespace site (yes, as a tech I'm peed off about it) but.. they also do not support IPv6... jesus people.
13:45:07 <TrueBrain> the more I read why some sites don't have IPv6, I think people have this notion that when you change your edge to IPv6, you also have to change your internals to IPv6 .. but there really is no need for that ..
13:50:00 <TrueBrain> okay, seem to have found how to transfer logs over .. so let's test that out 🙂
13:53:55 <TrueBrain> `"Exceptions":[],"Logs":[],"Outcome":"exception"`
13:53:59 <TrueBrain> I love the exception of no exception 🙂
13:54:25 <petern> Most of these places are probably using IPv6 for internals anyway.
13:57:15 <TrueBrain> I think they are scared shitless of that 😛
13:58:06 <LordAro> i've yet to be able to concinvvince our office to make any use of it
13:58:41 <LordAro> tbf i've not been able to think of any usecase for it either
13:58:55 <LordAro> external website uses it, at least
13:59:03 <petern> > This website is pending domain owner verification
13:59:48 <petern> Oh dear, they also default to forcing www.
13:59:51 <TrueBrain> okay .. I think I am ready to migrate DorpsGek over ... now how to plan this out .. hmm ... it takes a few minutes to get done, so I guess in a moment nobody is talking would be ideal .. so tonight or something
14:00:13 <LordAro> petern: is that not normal?
14:00:43 <petern> Not for a decade or so.
14:00:57 <TrueBrain> google.com does it too
14:01:23 <TrueBrain> lol, IRC logs are 500MiB of data in total .. haha
14:01:32 <TrueBrain> we have a lot of chats recorded 😄
14:01:50 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 11 years, 36 weeks, 6 days, 13 hours, 42 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
14:02:01 <TrueBrain> enjoy it while you can 😛
14:05:11 <DorpsGek> LordAro: I have not seen anything.
14:06:34 <TrueBrain> right, initial sink initiated .. that should work at least
14:08:56 <TrueBrain> it is annoying how long it takes for the sync to start .. this is an AWS service, but it takes over a minute before the first byte is send
14:12:54 <TrueBrain> `Files transferred: 28893`
14:14:22 <TTDguy> anybody know if the subreddit will open again? i have a lot of bookmarks of guides/screenshots/etc which would be a shame if they were never accessible again
14:14:51 <TrueBrain> I guess that is more a question to the CEO of Reddit 😉
14:16:13 <LordAro> nothing to do with us
14:16:21 <TTDguy> ok so assuming reddit doesn't budge the subreddit is gonna remain locked indefinitely?
14:16:45 <LordAro> or rather, the management of it is nothing to do with us
14:17:47 <LordAro> i imagine archive.org has most of it somewhere
14:17:50 <petern> You could ask the subreddit mods I guess. That's not us.
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14:31:11 <TrueBrain> Okay ... scale down Dorpsgek on old infra, wait for termination, sync logs, scale up on new infra, and that should be it .. so that is not too bad
14:31:21 <TrueBrain> owh, I need to delete a DNS record in between those moments
14:32:17 <TrueBrain> well, after dinner than .. as if things break, I can fix it in peace after dinner .. before dinner I will be annoyed 😄
14:33:38 <TrueBrain> `"Exceptions":[{"Name":"Error","Message":"get: Client Disconnect (10054)","TimestampMs":1687184203232}],"Logs":[],"Outcome":"exception"`
14:33:46 <TrueBrain> why is that an exception ... isn't that just expected behaviour? 😛
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16:34:12 <TrueBrain> right ... it is done
16:34:32 <TrueBrain> logs back till 2007 work fine .. and of today too 🙂
16:38:31 <TrueBrain> hmm ... something is not completely correct yet 😛 Let's see ...
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16:46:24 <TrueBrain> `"message": "Request with a GET or HEAD method cannot have a body.",`
16:46:29 <TrueBrain> yeah ... that sounds a bit bad ...
16:51:49 <TrueBrain> wauw, yes, this library we use for DorpsGek is ... doing something silly 🙂
17:00:32 <TrueBrain> no, broken software; there is a difference 🙂
17:02:33 <pickpacket> I'm writing a NewGRF with upgrades to the AsiaStar, based on the refurbishment made on the EuroStar in 2004 and the new model in 2015. I need help translating the specifications into OpenTTD values.
17:02:47 <TrueBrain> funny .. so the GitHub API accepts a GET with an empty body .. but this isn't actually a valid request, as a GET request should have no body
17:03:08 <TrueBrain> so this is only noticed if you proxy it through Cloudflare, and have a library that creates these weird requests in the first place
17:04:30 <glx[d]> pickpacket: if you use units in nml it should translate properly
17:05:28 <glx[d]> oh tractive effort is "magic"
17:05:58 <glx[d]> tractive_effort_coefficient 0 ... 1 (float) Set to 0 Fraction of the vehicle weight that is available as tractive effort. Tractive effort (in kN) is calculated as (TE coefficient) * 10 * weight (in tons), with 10 being an approximation of the acceleration of gravity (9.81 m/s). A good value for rail tracks is 0.3.
17:06:36 <pickpacket> glx[d]: yeah, I just don't know which values to put in. The power output is given as "16,414 hp" or "7,644 hp" or "4,559 hp" depending on catenary voltage
17:06:58 <pickpacket> the AsiaStar has 8000hp flat
17:07:20 <Brickblock1> Just choose whichever one you feel is right
17:08:36 <Brickblock1> You could make it detect what railtype it runs on and change power based on that but that seems a bit odd for a set that isn't hyper realism focused
17:09:05 <pickpacket> Brickblock1: in the game there's only one electric rail, though
17:09:29 <Brickblock1> Not if you use grfs which provide more than one
17:10:11 <pickpacket> oh, yeah, the wiki page doesn't say anything about the weight of the drive train either. And it gives a bunch of different values for tractive effort too
17:10:26 <pickpacket> uh, guess I said that already
17:10:30 <andythenorth> wikipedia data is believed unreliable, at least by train enthusiasts
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17:10:42 <andythenorth> also published figures are often rounded or otherwise nominal
17:10:52 <andythenorth> and hp differs from hp at rail
17:11:20 <pickpacket> andythenorth: do you know where I can find more reliable (and complete) info?
17:11:21 <andythenorth> pick values that are approximately realistic, but make sense for gameplay
17:11:42 <andythenorth> one thing to note...do you increase top speed?
17:12:24 <andythenorth> you'll need to increase HP just to maintain a baseline relationship of hp and speed
17:12:30 <pickpacket> the refurbished 373 has a top speed of 300 km/h and the 374 can reach 320 km/h
17:12:41 <andythenorth> if you want acceleration to also improve, you need to increase HP non-linearly
17:14:33 <pickpacket> Honestly I was about to just make some shit up for a train engine in between AsiaStar and monorail, but then I found out that the EuroStar had received upgrades
17:14:35 <andythenorth> weight is another factor there
17:14:47 <andythenorth> I would read the stats, then make some shit up
17:15:52 <pickpacket> I'm tempted to use the higher power output value of the 373 but that's *twice* the power of the AsiaStar :D
17:16:42 <pickpacket> the second highest is lower than the AsiaStar though.
17:17:25 <pickpacket> but for reals... the AsiaStar has an output of 8,000 hp, the 373 up to 16,000 hp and the 374 has 21,000 hp
17:20:34 <pickpacket> Hmmm. the X2001 has 9,000 hp and a top speed of 305 km/h. Should probably put it a little below that
17:22:10 <pickpacket> I'll make some shit up
17:26:26 <jfs-> the X2001 comes out earlier than your improved AsiaStar 300 (that's a good name IMHO) so a player can choose to build/upgrade to monorail to try to get an earlier competitive advantage, or stay on conventional rail
17:27:27 <jfs-> but true, the power rating should probably not be too much greater
17:28:26 <jfs-> otoh there might be an argument that monorail is more difficult to accelerate on since you have less surface contact: the thing that makes it more efficient at running also makes it harder to reach speeds
17:33:19 <pickpacket> ooooh! I like the AsiaStar 300. My working name was AsiaStar B, but that's a lot less interesting
17:35:43 <pickpacket> huh. The Millenium Z1 is designed the same year as I set the refurbished AsiaStar (from now on called AsiaStar X) to be introduced.
17:37:43 <pickpacket> errrrrhhhh... air_drag_coefficient and length?
17:40:16 <andythenorth> air_drag_coefficient might not be worth bothering with
17:40:24 <andythenorth> curve speed multiplier might be worth a look
17:41:46 <andythenorth> length is length, no?
17:41:54 <pickpacket> I've only made two train carriages before 😅 they're simpler
17:42:06 <andythenorth> length is just vehicle length
17:42:08 <pickpacket> Length of the vehicle in arbitrary units. Use a value of 8 (equal to the predefined constant VEHICLE_LENGTH) for a full-length vehicle.
17:42:30 <andythenorth> if you're just adjusting default sprites, it's probably 8/8
17:42:50 <andythenorth> there are some pitfalls there, as the length unit varies depending on grf version
17:46:27 <pickpacket> I'm just gonna make some cosmetic changes to the original, of course :)
17:46:45 <pickpacket> "The modifier is applied after the normal curve speed calculation is done using the formula max_curve_speed * (1 + curve_speed_mod)." <-- what's max_curve_speed, then?
17:48:59 <andythenorth> might vary by railtype, can't remember
17:49:27 <andythenorth> it's a function of how many 45 degree direction changes affect the consist currently, I think
17:49:48 <pickpacket> I wish all the default vehicles were described in NML too. Would be easier to just compare to those
17:55:19 <dP> doesn't ogfx trains have something like that?
17:55:28 <dP> though I'm not sure it's even nml...
17:57:43 <zephyris> It might predate nml, definitely close
17:57:47 <pickpacket> dP: there's some pnml in there, whatever that is
18:01:41 <pickpacket> I don't understand how it works, though. Like, there's a png file with sprites for the asiastar, but no file references it
18:05:49 <pickpacket> here's the pnml code for the asiastar in opengfx: base_graphics spr2965(2965, "sprites/png/trains/temperate_engines_28px.png") { tmpl_pikka_8view_88length_29px_plus6height(111, 296) }
18:08:23 <pickpacket> but there's also the apparently unused file sprites/png/trains/temperate_asiastar_88.png
18:16:30 <pickpacket> uh... how do I define a spriteset for an articulated vehicle?
18:23:08 <Brickblock1> Just like usual but you have a switch which references different ones based on what part it is you probably don't want to code it like an articulated vehicle if it should have the second engine at the back of the train
18:24:08 <pickpacket> oh. In that case what do I do? :(
18:24:34 <Brickblock1> You set the dualended property to 1
18:24:44 <pickpacket> yeah, my bad. That's what I've done
18:25:42 <Brickblock1> And use the vehicle is flipped variable to choose whether or the front or back graphics should be drawn
18:27:29 <pickpacket> This is probably interesting to someone: "DEPRECATION: nml was installed using the legacy 'setup.py install' method, because a wheel could not be built for it. pip 21.0 will remove support for this functionality. A possible replacement is to fix the wheel build issue reported above. You can find discussion regarding this at
18:27:51 <pickpacket> vehicle is flipped variable...
18:28:55 <pickpacket> I don't know how to use this. yet.
18:32:39 <pickpacket> errrh... trying to compile what I have so far and getting "Action 0 property too large"
18:37:20 <andythenorth> not seeing anything obvious there
18:37:33 <andythenorth> try commenting out props one at a time
18:37:52 <pickpacket> does anyone happen to have an nml file for a similar vehicle that I can look at?
18:40:43 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:47:11 <pickpacket> after removing half of the properties it's still "too large"
18:47:22 <pickpacket> I'd hazard a guess that something else is wrong
18:50:25 <pickpacket> found it. climates_available should not be a bitmask
18:51:02 <jfs-> pickpacket: is that during compiling, or when loading into the game? but "too large" probably refers to taking up more bytes than it should be using for the properties specified
18:51:41 <jfs-> so it isn't about containing too much data, but rather the data being mal-formatted
18:55:19 <pickpacket> jfs-: it was during compile, but it was because I had typed "bitmask(CONSTANT)" instead of just "CONSTANT"
18:56:30 <andythenorth> what version of JGRPP do I set in Bananas?
18:56:47 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is `>= 13.1.0`
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20:35:37 <pickpacket> Sprite alignment is hell 🙂 will continue that fight tomorrow
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21:39:32 <JGR> andythenorth: Just leave it off, unless you've doing something JGRPP-specific
21:42:09 <JGR> Though it seems my branch is sending 13.0 as the vanilla version at the moment
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22:18:24 <glx[d]> ok it's a "nice" one I think
22:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "You have successfully redeemed your code for: Friends of Chirper - Cities: Skylines II"
22:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how that helps me in any way, but i got there :)
22:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> also, after killing everone off for one of the milestone buildings, should i rescue my city or just play from the previous savegame?
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22:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, people are slowly moving back in
22:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think i barely escaped bankrupcy
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23:51:12 <glx[d]> unpredictable bad luck timing
23:52:28 <glx[d]> and news window "stealing" focus might be annoying in other occasions
23:57:13 <glx[d]> like while you are typing in the console or an editbox
23:57:43 <petern> Yes, maybe we should pop that up without taking focus. Same with the gamescriot popups to be honest.
23:59:04 <petern> But also, the drop-down close should have the correct company scope, and perhaps focus-closing an instant close drop-down should abort instead of execute.
continue to next day ⏵
