IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-06-06
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00:12:05 <petern> Yeah, when we mentioned using a static NewGRF, we simply meant a separate static NewGRF, not using the baseset as one.
00:12:30 <petern> "We"... I don't remember who mentioned it 🙂
00:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> might have been me?
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05:29:35 <Rubidium_> well, some parameters/settings for the extra GRF of the base set wouldn't be that bad I think. However, other NewGRFs will definitely not be able to inspect what settings it has. So other NewGRFs cannot know whether the tiles are with or without borders
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05:46:28 <Brickblock1> i don't see how other grfs wouldn't be able to read them since they are currently able to test what baseset is in use by checking the extra grf
05:50:00 <Rubidium_> something with desyncs...
06:20:57 <TallTyler> I thought it was possible, since there’s a single train GRF that checks for NightGFX. I forget which but Google can probably find it
06:23:26 <TallTyler> Maybe it’s not automatic, I can’t check right now
06:31:42 <Brickblock1> They seam to be two completely separate.grfs. But it is possible to check which I have done.
06:43:41 <Rubidium_> yikes; so if a NewGRF (accidentally) changes vehicle properties based on the used based set, that might desync people. Would be fun... "you may only play if you use my base set, otherwise you will desync out pretty quickly"
07:01:11 <zephyris> Is there documentation anywhere on what is allowable/enabled in base/static/newgrfs? I assumed that base/static can only do (in nml terms) replace and replace_new, plus parameter and climate switches, and anything else was ignored. For newgrf, I'd assumed they can do anything except read which baseset/static grfs are active.
07:02:03 <zephyris> My surprise was that base/static grfs can read which newgrfs are active, but if there're restricted to replace/replace_new then that's not a desync risk.
07:02:59 <zephyris> (with the possible corner case of classic map generation sprites, but I think mapgen is done server server side and downloaded to clients, so not an issue.)
07:22:43 <Brickblock1> I don't think there is any documentation and generally static grfs can only replace graphics and define features
07:37:27 <EmperorJake> Hmm, it would be possible to make a killswitch that completely disables the GRF if zbase is detected 🤔
09:27:31 <frosch> EmperorJake: i think the killswitch is normal ottd behavior
09:28:14 <frosch> if a grf tries to read or check about a static grf, it will be disabled, to prevent leaking of any other information
09:28:21 <frosch> though i guess it may be considered a leak itself :p
09:31:51 <Rubidium_> frosch: but the extra GRF is not static, but it can be different between clients. So (assuming it can be probed, which is implied by the earlier comments), I could make a NewGRF that only does something when a particular base set is detected
09:31:54 <frosch> hmm, sorry, i am talking nonsene
09:33:05 <EmperorJake> Not that I would actually do it, horribly mismatched graphics is punishment enough for anyone using zBase
09:33:08 <frosch> the static-grf behavior is inverse to what i said: if a grf qeuries something about a static grf, the static grf is disabled to make it "not present" consistent for all clients
09:40:38 <frosch> anyhow, in good news: there will be no train strikes till next week. the meeting is safe 🙂
09:57:16 <frosch> maybe a silly question: the survey preview shows savegame-stuff also in the intro menu. is the title-game somehow filtered out from the survey data?
09:58:35 <TrueBrain> it is impossible to send a survey-result from the intro menu yes 🙂
09:58:40 <TrueBrain> it only sends it when leaving an actual game
09:59:10 <TrueBrain> and yes, the preview in the intro menu gives another suggestion, but I wouldn't know what other information to show; so I was like: meh, it is fine
09:59:12 <frosch> i assumed also for crashes and things
09:59:22 <TrueBrain> a crash is send regardless of how it happened
09:59:36 <TrueBrain> could even happen on startup crashes (once someone is opt-in)
10:00:38 <TrueBrain> it only does it when you were in-game
10:00:46 <TrueBrain> `if (_game_mode == GM_NORMAL) {` is before it
10:08:13 <petern> Oops, I broke dropdowns more :/
10:19:27 <frosch> i was looking into the baseset/static grf difference... LoadSpriteTables is kind of evil. we have a global _grfconfig which contains the active grfs (both non-static and static), and LoadSpriteTables prepends the baseset to it just before loading grfs and then removes them again. So _grfconfig is different during loading grfs than during the rest of the game
10:22:46 <petern> Either Windows has broken me, or Gnome has got shitter and shitter over the years.
10:25:08 <frosch> i only know gnome in the default centos configuration. and in that state it feels like trolling the user. imo it does not even qualify as a window mwnager, because it fails at "managing" windows. fvwm95 does a better job
10:27:20 <frosch> gnome always had this useless (because mostly empty) bar at the top, and the useful (for swithing windows) bar at the bottom. then centos default config disabled the bottom bar
10:27:47 <frosch> the only valid usecase seems to be: start a webbrowser, fullscreen it, and ignore the rest of the system
10:31:30 <petern> Having no bottom bar is the default Gnome config.
10:32:03 <petern> Apparently Gnome users don't need a taskbar by default.
10:32:23 <petern> Nor minimize/maximum buttons
10:32:43 <petern> Gnome 2 was a bit more conventional in that regards, and more configurable.
10:33:23 <petern> All the theming for Gtk/Gnome became shit with 3 as well. Everything is basically just a slightly different colour scheme instead of actual changes.
10:33:50 <petern> Of course Windows doesn't really do theming these days either.
10:44:22 <JGR> Power users are not really the target audience for Gnome
10:44:29 <JGR> Better off using one of the many other options
10:47:42 <petern> Right but it used to be perfectly adequate for us.
10:48:19 <petern> And because of focus of effort, things outside either KDE or Gnome are generally just not integrated very well.
10:48:28 <JGR> You can still use Gnome 2 or one of its various forks if you want
10:48:34 <petern> And KDE is only used by Germans 🙂
10:48:49 <JGR> I just use XFCE because I don't need anything fancy
10:48:57 <petern> Still clinging on to SuSE.
10:49:19 <frosch> i thought suse was only used by germans? :p
10:50:01 <petern> KDE is only used by Germans, still clinging on to SuSE 🙂
10:50:34 <frosch> ah, one sentence. i use kde and like it a lot, but i have not touched suse in 20 years
10:51:07 <petern> I had boxed copy of SuSE 6.something, probably 6.4
10:52:52 <petern> Also on my PC Linux reserves 1.4GB memory for pagetables.
10:56:22 <petern> Hmm, 64GB so should be 1GB, I guess other ram is reserved for other things.
11:03:44 <dP> idk, I didn't have much trouble switching to gnome 3
11:03:49 <dP> at least once it got a bit more stable
11:05:20 <dP> doesn't matter much how to start a terminal 😆
11:23:13 <petern> I managed with ion3 for a while 🙂
11:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> gnomechomsky: what became of the hostel situation?
12:19:00 <petern> > 4 files changed, 18 insertions(+), 38 deletions(-)
12:19:00 <petern> I guess that's a satisfactory fix.
12:21:33 <petern> Although not sure, it abuses NWidgetDisplay with a tempory non-display flag.
12:31:45 <petern> (When you make a change, but then decide to remove one commit before pushing...)
12:31:58 <LordAro> is that commit reference correct? GH isn't autolinking it
12:36:50 <petern> Probably a cleaner way to implement this would be a return value on OnFocusLost() which could then be tested and used to eat the event. That way there's no special dropdown handling in the general click event handler.
12:47:23 <petern> Although that's only simpler and cleaner if you always want it eat the event.
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17:05:06 <TrueBrain> C++ strings is safer, they said 😛
17:09:03 <petern> Sounds like it's the non-string parts.
17:17:13 <Rubidium_> it's the lack of strongly typed integers :D
17:17:30 <Rubidium_> JGR: are you already preparing a PR for that issue?
17:21:45 <JGR> No, I haven't done anything with it
17:25:20 <Rubidium_> hmm... do we want to fix the wrong gamelog entries...
17:26:03 <petern> Not all the data is there anyway.
17:26:42 <petern> If they were all the same size it would be feasible, but they're not.
17:27:03 <Rubidium_> well... newgrf version is written in a byte, savegame version in a uint32 and modified in a uint16. So the NewGRF version is missing... but that one is essentially hardcoded for the duration of the bug
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17:30:17 <petern> IMHO not worth complicating it.
17:30:36 <petern> If it was invalid game state that's another matter.
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18:21:57 <gnomechomsky> Eddi|zuHause: I bought one. I was going to DM you but I can't
18:22:06 <gnomechomsky> I mean, I booked at one
18:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i'm not on discord
18:22:49 <gnomechomsky> Oh, what platform are you using?
18:23:40 <gnomechomsky> I should've joined
18:24:01 <gnomechomsky> Anyway, I'm staying at "Hostel Aachen" between the 9th and 11th
18:24:10 <gnomechomsky> It cost me 20 euro a night
18:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> gnomechomsky: can you extend that to another person, or do i have to go through all the hassle of booking?
18:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (because i probably won't do that)
18:40:48 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:44:35 <gnomechomsky> Edd: i|zuHause I just checked and there's no more availability
18:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i could risk it and just show up there?
18:46:54 <gnomechomsky> Uh, I'd book a&o Aachen Hauptbahnhof
18:47:04 <gnomechomsky> According to booking.com they still have space for two nights starting 9th
18:47:21 <gnomechomsky> It's 30 euro a night instead but maybe cheaper from their own website
18:48:51 <gnomechomsky> 56 euro if you book it online
18:49:22 <gnomechomsky> slightly more expensive but being next to the station instead of a 30 min walk might be handy
18:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate everything about this already
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19:18:04 <gnomechomsky> What's the issue?
19:19:11 <TrueBrain> Eddi is now known as Marvin
19:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not too far off :p
19:20:28 <TrueBrain> all that is missing is the brains? 😛 😛
19:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate spending money, i hate making decisions, i hate interacting with faceless strangers, ...
19:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also i'm not sure whether 9€ for a breakfast is worth it
19:27:07 <petern> Hmm, trying to determine what "best" means for a fallback font.
19:28:47 <gnomechomsky> I also hate making decisions but I just did it, so long as you have extra time and backup money it's fine
19:29:08 <petern> It's picked DejaVu Serif, Bold.
19:29:20 <petern> Which is.. fine, it works, but it's not really fitting in the TTD style 🙂
19:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it picked something :p
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19:31:25 <XarothBrook> I'd love to come but I'm swimming then.
19:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so far the cheapest decision is still the night bus. but it's also the deadliest
19:36:24 <Rubidium_> oh, OS X is likely going to fail because SetFallbackFont's signature was not changed
19:37:38 <XarothBrook> Eddi|zuHause: So you're afraid of the random people in the bus, but not the random people at the meeting?
19:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> at this rate i won't be coming...
19:37:52 <XarothBrook> I mean, have you _seen_ TrueBrain ? He's scary af.
19:39:39 <andythenorth> I am doing school class camping trip 😛
19:39:43 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd be there
19:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i have, actually
19:40:01 <XarothBrook> Aw, I was looking forward to meeting you, if it weren't for my swimming.
19:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not afraid of random people. i'm afraid of faceless people (like, on a telephone, where i can't see how they are reacting)
19:45:13 <frosch> can you swim to brussels?
19:46:03 <Rubidium_> you can definitely swim in Brussels
19:46:36 <petern> Rubidium_: Ah, bad merge 🙂
20:00:13 <TrueBrain> frosch: have you seen him in a speedo? Brrr
20:00:19 <XarothBrook> frosch: Yes, but there's always the risk of sharks.
20:00:42 <XarothBrook> TrueBrain: Stop fawning over my swimwear pictures!
20:01:01 <frosch> TrueBrain: no, xaroth was not at the previous meetings, i have not met your cousin
20:01:09 <petern> I don't know what happened to 10964, it was working :/
20:01:30 <XarothBrook> frosch: Are you implying that I'm related to that madman?
20:02:24 <frosch> you denied being brothers before, so i tried cousins this time
20:02:47 <TrueBrain> I even deny knowing him
20:02:58 <TrueBrain> don't want to assume
20:02:58 <XarothBrook> Would anybody actually agree to being related to TB?
20:03:05 <pickpacket> The existence of TrueBrain implies the existence of FalseBrain
20:03:19 <XarothBrook> It implies the existence of a PinkyBrain.
20:03:24 <glx[d]> it was light before brain
20:03:26 <Rubidium_> and don't forget FileNotFoundBrain :D
20:03:30 <pickpacket> pinky and the brain
20:04:07 <frosch> "FileNotFoundBrain" sounds like you should more strict typing
20:04:14 <pickpacket> I wouldn’t mind being related to TrueBrain. Can’t be worse than some of my actual relatives
20:05:01 <XarothBrook> You'd be surprised
20:05:04 <XarothBrook> he makes terrible jokes
20:05:16 <TrueBrain> pickpacket: challenge accepted!
20:05:43 <frosch> who is going to adopt who?
20:06:33 <frosch> does that count as relative?
20:06:40 <XarothBrook> Depends on where you live
20:06:45 <TrueBrain> the adoption rate of Xaroth is low .. bit sad , but nobody likes this new version they installed
20:08:05 <frosch> i did not know that meme
20:09:46 <frosch> XarothBrook: saarland is closer
20:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Yes/No/FileNotFound, a classic
20:14:03 <petern> Hm, apparently I just didn't finish writing that one. :/
20:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> really... all decisions are bad...
20:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> like, if i want brekfast, i can't take the bus
20:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so i pay for the breakfast, and pay for the more expensive train
20:32:17 <andythenorth> my experience of modern life
20:32:21 <andythenorth> is that it has become expensive
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20:53:37 <petern> Expensive and full of cables.
20:53:51 <petern> Although that might just be synthesizers.
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21:08:18 <TrueBrain> another rejected PR
21:08:22 <TrueBrain> we are horrible developers 😦
21:09:07 <FLHerne> I'm still toying the idea, but it's expensive and stupidly inconvenient
21:09:17 <FLHerne> or stupidly expensive and merely inconvenient :p
21:10:07 <TrueBrain> it is just once a decade
21:10:10 <TrueBrain> is glx[d] joining too?
21:12:06 <FLHerne> I can catch a bus 0900 Friday and get there at 1930 for only £40
21:15:35 <TrueBrain> that is not too bad
21:17:48 <TrueBrain> (the price, not the time)
21:18:43 <FLHerne> I misread, it's 0630, but only £32
21:18:54 <FLHerne> indeed the price isn't bad
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21:49:07 <petern> Oh. Yeah that was stupid.
21:56:03 <petern> Someone did mention getting to #11111 before the weekend, so...
21:56:39 <TrueBrain> and we thank you for your contribution 😄
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