IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-05-29
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05:55:06 <Rau> petern: I hope this is a bug and not what the industry window will look like…
05:55:06 <Rau> Because using sub-menu to see how well this mine works is an extremely inconvenient feature.
05:55:06 <Rau> Having a production history is a good thing. But sacrificing fast... instant access to current production is pointless.
05:59:01 <Rau> Oh, my bad. It just says «display **chain**», not «display **history**»…
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07:45:51 <TrueBrain> that was just cute 😛
07:47:23 <TrueBrain> it does remind me I wanted to check if the cache on the online server-listing is still useful
07:48:36 <TrueBrain> most likely some cache is needed, but maybe not 5 minutes anymore 😄
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12:44:40 <TrueBrain> sorry, should I have waited longer?
12:46:06 <petern> Didn't think anyone was around :p
12:46:24 <TrueBrain> owh, you wanted to slip it in? 😄
12:55:16 <petern> Hmm, make objects accept/produce cargo seems like a bad idea. You can just spam a few objects down to create yourself a money earner without having to care about industry chains or town growth.
13:02:10 <jfs-> yeah it would rather have to be some kind of objects that only occur "naturally" then
13:02:33 <petern> It works for HQ because you can only have the one.
13:02:56 <jfs-> it would have to be that objects linked to an industry, as discussed many times before
13:03:17 <jfs-> either objects required for the industry to be built, or for it to function, and/or that the industry creates
13:04:00 <petern> Hmm, objects linked to industries is an interesting idea, but isn't that just a 'sparse' industry tile?
13:04:23 <jfs-> not quite, it's basically farmland but generic
13:04:36 <jfs-> or the subtropic lumbermill that cuts down trees
13:04:49 <petern> They're not objects either 😄
13:05:11 <jfs-> yes but people have asked for a way to make "farmland, but not the same farmland" for their newgrf industries
13:06:21 <jfs-> and if it was some kind of directly linked to industry production, then you could have the situation where the farm gets surrounded by houses or infrastructure that it no longer has any land to operate out of and can't keep up production
13:06:25 <petern> Isn't farm land already linked to the farm industry? In which case it's not that much of a stretch to add custom drawing with the industry involved.
13:06:37 <jfs-> (yes that has some potential for abuse in multiplayer)
13:07:28 <jfs-> I don't think the farm cares about there being farmland. I think perhaps it tries to create some more if there isn't much in the surrounding area, but otherwise it's only decoration
13:08:12 <jfs-> the subtropic lumbermill is the only industry whose production depends on there being some resource physically present on the map
13:14:52 <andythenorth> GS can plant objects
13:20:10 <jfs-> do objects already have flags for creation and destruction restrictions?
13:24:35 <jfs-> ah no it seems to be missing "can not be built by players"
13:28:32 <petern> I think that's done by class at least.
13:28:52 <petern> You can't place default transmitters in game, for instance.
13:29:27 <jfs-> but that's a general "only available in scenario editor" restriction, but maybe that's also good enough
13:31:03 <jfs-> but that might also prevent GS from enumerating them, but then again that might also be just fine, if the GS maybe has another way to check if an object exists that it just so happens to know about
13:31:17 <glx[d]> petern: would be annoying to be allowed to place them but not to remove them
13:40:26 <TrueBrain> blegh, every time I restart WSL, vscode cannot decrypt the authentication tokens anymore
13:40:30 <TrueBrain> and I have no clue why not 😦
13:40:45 <TrueBrain> everything works fine as long as I keep WSL running .. but as soon as it cycles .. poef
13:47:59 <TallTyler> petern: That sounds an awful lot like trying to force people to play the game the "right way." I'm in a multiplayer server where we're all cheating for money and funding towns and industries wherever we want. Should we ban that? 😛
13:48:39 <TallTyler> The easy solution is, if you don't want to play the game that way, don't use that object set 🙂
13:51:53 <andythenorth> BUT MULTIPLAYER OMG
13:52:12 <andythenorth> also someone might complain somewhere about the game being ruined
13:52:44 <TallTyler> The game is already ruined though? 🤔
13:52:44 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: I keep wondering about the event if it should be more clear that it is "own expenses" kinda thing 😛
13:53:13 <andythenorth> definitely don't want people turning up expecting free entry
13:53:21 <TallTyler> Noted, just edited the event
13:53:29 <TallTyler> Will also update the GH discussion
13:53:59 <TrueBrain> maybe also reword the "officially planned" about lunch/dinner
13:54:11 <TrueBrain> I would avoid the word official 😛
13:54:17 <TrueBrain> just drop that word 🙂
13:54:37 <TrueBrain> "location is not known yet"
13:54:47 <TrueBrain> just anything to avoid the world "official" 😄 😄
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13:56:28 <TrueBrain> I did worse for OpenTTD meetups 🙂
13:56:58 <TallTyler> Why is it specifically warning you about France? 😛
13:57:09 <TrueBrain> have you even been in France? 😛
13:57:18 <EightMegsAndConstant> I mean, it would've been worse if I still lived in Ireland.
13:57:31 <TallTyler> Only traveling through on Eurostar
13:57:50 <TrueBrain> there are silly rules you need to know when traveling through France .. like you need to have a breath-test with you .. you cannot project your mobile on your in-car entertainment system
13:57:58 <TrueBrain> so the warning is kinda useful 😛
13:58:09 <EightMegsAndConstant> My car is from 1991 so one of those won't be an issue for me.
13:58:20 <glx[d]> breath test is not required anymore
13:58:28 <TrueBrain> no? Wow ... progress! 😛
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13:58:49 <vincent1234567890> It was only cause the police there where cheapskates
13:59:07 <TrueBrain> it is a nice way to push the expensive to your population 🙂
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13:59:14 <KerbMario> aw you must be 18 to attend
13:59:57 <glx[d]> yeah breath test were totally wasteful, they don't conserve very well in a car
14:00:11 <glx[d]> and nobody was required to use them anyway
14:00:40 <vincent1234567890> If you got pulled over they had you use yours
14:00:50 <vincent1234567890> At least if i remember right
14:01:10 <KerbMario> KerbMario: would have come maybe then
14:01:18 <glx[d]> no they have to used theirs anyway
14:01:40 <vincent1234567890> Well thats stuppid then
14:01:44 <glx[d]> it was just for self testing
14:02:13 <EightMegsAndConstant> I had a look at flights but they all connect through Scotland(!?!)
14:02:21 <jfs-> KerbMario: I don't think anyone's going to check, but it's purely due to liability of the rest of us
14:02:25 <vincent1234567890> Well i was considering coming but realised i dont have time then
14:02:47 <jfs-> but like, if you're under 18 and attend with a guardian it's probably fine?
14:03:34 <glx[d]> most annoying thing in france is probably the low emission zones
14:04:00 <glx[d]> and the required crit'air stuff in these area
14:04:40 <EightMegsAndConstant> I'm surprised there's no direct car ferry to Zeebrugge
14:04:43 <glx[d]> but I think germany has similar stuff
14:05:28 <TrueBrain> how long does it take to make a file with 16M entries?
14:05:37 <glx[d]> oh pool stuff doing nasty things ?
14:06:11 <EightMegsAndConstant> I've been doing some nasty stuff with macros on my 2D RPG project which K&R says are fine and legal, but GCC still warns me about.
14:06:21 <petern> Pool still uses C-style allocations/clearing, basically.
14:06:22 <EightMegsAndConstant> Namely redefining macros without undef'ing them.
14:06:29 <TrueBrain> following K&R in this day and age is ... special 🙂
14:07:08 <EightMegsAndConstant> I did add all the appropriate undefs but they did startle me slightly, I'm not literally writing C89 lol.
14:07:16 <TrueBrain> 1.5M entries .. oof, this is taking longer than I would like
14:07:52 <TrueBrain> the question is ... can OpenTTD load it? I dunno .... 😄
14:08:01 <petern> Having to redefine macros is definitely an antipattern.
14:08:17 <EightMegsAndConstant> I was using X macros to make things a bit easier to maintain.
14:08:42 <EightMegsAndConstant> IE updating a bunch of parallel lists.
14:09:43 <glx[d]> we use macros to fill some tables, but they are undefined right after use
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14:14:43 <TrueBrain> `terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::__cxx11::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >'` I can crash the game with a broken `.nut` file .. guess I should do something about that?
14:14:43 <TrueBrain> owh, I might not have updated my code in that case
14:14:43 <TrueBrain> good; I will not look into it further 😄 Tnx 🙂
14:14:48 <KerbMario> glx[d]: Koblenz has a museum with some trains
14:14:48 <KerbMario> wait it's a saturday
14:14:50 <KerbMario> that means I'm not at home and can''t go anywhere
14:15:24 <glx[d]> TrueBrain: uncatched throw
14:15:24 <glx[d]> but I though I fixed that
14:15:24 <glx[d]> compiler throw string and catch SQChar
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14:41:54 <TrueBrain> well that was fun 🙂 Always nice when people claim something works on 2.x and 3.x, but only give proof for 3.x 😄
14:45:07 <TrueBrain> owh, I guessed the 1.10+ correctly; lol .. should have checked before hitting the green button, but what-ever .. I was correct 🙂
14:50:43 <andythenorth> was it flat docks?
14:51:02 <petern> I'll get back onto docks eventually
14:52:22 <andythenorth> it's not like I have time to make a grf for them 🙂
14:52:25 <andythenorth> so many projects
14:52:46 <andythenorth> unrelated QoL issue, I want to make a group from shared orders list
14:53:05 <andythenorth> but I have to go to the full list of trains, find the numbered train, then ctrl-drag to create a new group
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15:03:16 * glx[d] tries backport script for the first time
15:09:50 <glx[d]> oh of course backporting language failed as it expects python3 executable (mine is just python)
15:10:24 <EmperorJake> andythenorth: Just switch to JGRPP already 😛
15:10:39 <andythenorth> that's one answer yes
15:15:12 <CK2347> All hail our Lord , our saviour , JGR!!
15:18:50 <andythenorth> JGRPP is not for me
15:18:55 <andythenorth> it's for a different kind of player
15:31:56 <glx[d]> ok and backport-languages.py is not windows path compatible
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16:01:24 <andythenorth> TallTyler: I had attention span issues reading that issue discussion 🙂
16:01:34 <andythenorth> whatever JGRPP does is probably correct
16:01:38 <andythenorth> the rest is probably weird
16:03:25 <TallTyler> I had the same problem 🙂
16:03:43 <TallTyler> I chimed in early on and then haven't had the concentration to stay up-to-date on where the conversation went later
16:04:20 <andythenorth> it should just be whatever JGRPP does 😛
16:04:24 <TallTyler> It would be probably be a really easy cherry-pick, but we have to decide if it's the best approach, and that's more work... 😦
16:04:49 <andythenorth> the pattern is establishd
16:05:00 <andythenorth> it's just an oversight that nobody finished the list
16:05:04 <petern> You can't cherry pick this stuff because JGRPP didn't switch to our command system.
16:05:04 <andythenorth> mistakes get made
16:05:12 <petern> However, I'm now working on it.
16:05:22 <TallTyler> Well, cherry-pick and then rewrite the whole thing 😛
16:05:31 <petern> No point in cherrypicking.
16:07:06 <andythenorth> oops, I've disabled 'new vehicle' messages for all engines 😄
16:08:43 <TallTyler> I find preview offers annoying but not quite annoying enough to justify a new setting
16:11:05 <andythenorth> oh I've accidentally disabled preview also 😛
16:19:42 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: extend the dialog with "Always accept" and "Always ignore", easy 🙂
16:22:05 <andythenorth> and some cookie preferences
16:22:25 <petern> Including an artifical 3 minute delay to "update your preferences" when you decline?
16:22:44 <TrueBrain> black out the whole screen till you made a choice
16:23:03 <andythenorth> is daylength yet?
16:23:09 <andythenorth> or should I set the clock back in my game 😛
16:33:20 <TallTyler> Daylength is blocked by some tech debt
16:33:40 <TrueBrain> nothing blocking you from working on that, is there? 😄
16:33:42 <TallTyler> I wonder if we need a third timer type, for System Timer
16:33:53 <TallTyler> For linkgraph and network things
16:34:45 <TallTyler> The only things blocking me from working on tech debt is time (new job) and motivation 🙂
16:35:10 <TrueBrain> pffff, time ... nobody has that issue!
16:35:53 <TallTyler> It's sort of a chicken and egg problem, I need time to make infinite time 😛
16:36:17 <TrueBrain> I don't have time to read this nonsense 😛
16:37:04 <TallTyler> I don't have time to write it, so problem solved
16:51:02 <jfs-> TallTyler: what does the linkgraph need that's special? it just needs to join the worker every N ticks, is that actually unique?
16:54:00 <TallTyler> I haven't looked into it, it's just on TB's list of tech debt to solve first
17:08:11 <petern> Also bah, can't take a reference to an object that only exists as a parameter.
17:09:36 <petern> Hmm, or I'm doing this command stuff wrong 😄
17:25:37 <andythenorth> will 'go non-stop' avoid any waypoints?
17:25:55 <andythenorth> is 'avoid waypoint X' a thing?
17:27:57 <jfs-> I imagine that's a much harder pathfinding problem
17:33:48 <petern> It will not stop at the waypoint, at least...
17:34:23 <andythenorth> I wanted "don't use platform X" 😛
17:34:29 <andythenorth> but I could just split the tracks
17:36:05 <glx[d]> split and waypoint to the not X
17:48:23 <frosch> waypoints can also span multiple tracks, and have distant join
17:48:34 <frosch> so put a waypoint on all platforms but X
17:48:47 <frosch> or use jgrpp routing restrictions 🙂
17:54:17 <pickpacket> holy cow... I rebalanced appearance probabilities for my industries such that teahouses and tea factories are less common at map gen. Of course that means everything else is *more* common, and since tea tree farms are as common as coal mines but more visually distinguishable it looks like the map is absolutely filled with them
17:56:08 <petern> Oops, I managed to put every vehicle in one group.
17:57:49 <pickpacket> petern: I hardly do groups any more
17:58:26 <petern> Oh I see, a blank VehicleListIdentifier is valid.
17:58:33 <glx[d]> I usually have vehicles in one group (the ungrouped one)
17:58:44 <pickpacket> glx[d]: yeah, me too
17:59:20 <petern> You can disable groups then.
17:59:55 <TrueBrain> Hm .. how difficult would it be to transform Squirrel into Javascript or Typescript .. syntax-wise they are kinda compatible..
18:01:06 <pickpacket> I need a little bit of help. I've tried to start a new game a couple of times in the last week, but each time I do I just get analysis paralysis looking for the perfect spot to put my first station, where it can be expanded later in the game
18:01:12 <pickpacket> how do I get past that?
18:01:19 <TrueBrain> Meh, first need to get through this infra migration .. boring stuff
18:04:40 <jfs-> pickpacket: remember that you can always tear up and rebuild, once you know the shape of your network
18:31:16 <andythenorth> petern: best use of groups
18:33:03 <petern> Oops, she ordered chinese food
18:39:05 <andythenorth> sometimes I wish there was a better way
18:39:23 <andythenorth> that blocks 2 lines though
18:39:30 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:41:32 <petern> Well you could put a signal just before
18:42:36 <andythenorth> really needs a diver under
18:42:48 <andythenorth> but it should be on the secondary line, not the main
18:42:56 <andythenorth> but can't do a diagonal tunnel
18:43:25 <petern> Maybe you need a waypoint 😉
18:43:31 <andythenorth> underground waypoint
18:43:54 <andythenorth> I always feel guilty building infra
18:43:58 <andythenorth> must be a British thing
18:44:21 <andythenorth> also I have a total fear of slopes in the game
18:44:59 <andythenorth> meanwhile, is this a cloverleaf? 😛
19:01:46 <andythenorth> now the signal spacing is horrible because bridges
19:02:45 <andythenorth> but mostly grade separated
19:02:53 <andythenorth> there's an X crossing hiding under the bridges
19:04:04 <andythenorth> wonder if we could even diagonal tunnels ever
19:06:21 <andythenorth> do tunnels just store a start and end tile?
19:08:22 <andythenorth> also is it still considered cheating to use RVs?
19:08:24 <andythenorth> or did we get over that?
19:09:46 <petern> Who ever considered using RVs as cheating?
19:10:46 <andythenorth> it was strict coop server rules
19:10:48 <andythenorth> actual ban and kick
19:11:02 <andythenorth> I spent too much time in coop irc, it broke my thinking 😛
19:11:25 <andythenorth> I need some sort of therapy
19:12:57 <petern> I'm not sure why you reference old obscure rules for a specific server as if it's the game's rules.
19:16:06 <andythenorth> it's totally nonsense
19:16:25 <andythenorth> but then again I salute every magpie I see
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19:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <petern> Isn't farm land already linked to the farm industry? In which case it's not that much of a stretch to add custom drawing with the industry involved. <-- the usual stopper to that was what happens to the tiles when the industry is closed?
19:56:38 <pickpacket> andythenorth: … salute magpies?
19:59:21 <andythenorth> why do I never bridge over tunnel entrances?
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20:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and why did we never implement overbuilding tunnel entrances?
20:05:22 <andythenorth> could ctrl-click on variants close all?
20:05:31 <andythenorth> we have similar in minimap for industry toggle on / off
20:11:29 <petern> LOL, actually add the new file would be useful.
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20:42:34 <andythenorth> flyover this time
20:42:45 <andythenorth> dive under tunnels require more tiles 😛
20:43:06 <andythenorth> tunnel entrance with slope? 😛
20:45:37 <andythenorth> trench and cover 😛
20:47:34 <andythenorth> maybe we could simulate this somehow 😛
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21:06:18 <andythenorth> hmm how to build a dock here 😛
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22:08:10 <petern> Oops, dozing in front of keyboard
22:08:26 <petern> These patches are not writing themslves...
22:10:59 <andythenorth> oof yeah, sleeping errors
22:11:18 <andythenorth> this is nice and tidy though
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22:17:35 <TallTyler> Why does Steeltown have farms? Seems like they just get in your way 🙂
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23:02:39 <debdog> who else would harvest steel from steelroots than a steelfarmer?
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