IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-05-22
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00:28:46 <EmperorJake> Could we add a flag to bridges so that newgrfs can prevent towns from building them? This would be great for something like the modular bridges set.
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03:47:49 <EmperorJake> It would be a simple addition to prop 0E misc flags, which only uses only one bit currently
04:12:15 <EmperorJake> Oh wow I didn't realise new bridges got so far as to have a working branch and sample GRF. It would be nice to have, but my suggestion could be considered separately because it could easily be added to the current bridge spec.
04:59:37 <pickpacket> I have a problem with my Tea Tea Deluxe mod. It looks like the number of tea tree farms on the map is dropping over time as tea tree farms without stations decrease production. I don't see this with other primary industries like coal, iron ore, oil rigs
04:59:44 <pickpacket> what have I missed?
04:59:53 <pickpacket> or am I just imagining?
05:07:16 <pickpacket> Is it because I set life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_ORGANIC; ?
05:07:49 <pickpacket> Maybe it should be life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_ORGANIC;
05:07:58 <pickpacket> *life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_EXTRACTIVE;
05:08:04 <pickpacket> but that feels... wrong...
05:09:33 <Rubidium_> if there is no callback 29, then extractive and organic industries should behave the same production wise
05:10:07 <Rubidium_> (according to the specs)
05:11:03 <Rubidium_> and the code seems to agree with that
05:12:35 <Rubidium_> *maybe* they are easier to place due to small size, and as such it takes a while to reach equilibrium?
05:13:47 <pickpacket> I dunno. They have a slightly lower probability of generation than coal mines, for example
05:15:29 <pickpacket> they're larger than a coal or iron ore mine, too
05:16:27 <pickpacket> if the industry list showed the number of elements currently in the list this would be easier to verify
05:18:26 <Rubidium_> try the fund new industry window with a sufficiently new version of OpenTTD
05:21:45 <pickpacket> tea tree farm can't be funded
05:22:07 <pickpacket> It can be prospected for of course. Forgot that
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08:44:25 <andythenorth> hmm increased random bits eh 🙂
09:08:50 <petern> Is it food time? I'm kinda hungry.
09:33:50 <petern> Hmm, I've eaten all the snacks I bought on Friday, good job I didn't buy too much.
10:47:07 <TallTyler> The small map shows industry totals 🙂
11:47:38 <petern> Ah the old default-title-from-branch-name trick...
12:00:14 <petern> I have cheated by eating.
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12:38:29 <TrueBrain> lol, that really sounds like a GPT response ..
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12:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it was kinda expected that the spammers are the first to jump onto the AI bandwagon
12:54:00 <petern> Hmm, found a spare NAS but... it's from 2006.
12:54:21 <petern> > The N5200 is able to be outfitted with up to five 3.5" SATA hard disks, enabling a maximum capacity of 3TB of storage!
12:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a bios limit, or was that just counted with HDD sizes from back then?
12:55:10 <petern> Yeah, it's difficult to know.
12:56:05 <TrueBrain> and another case to update to C++20
12:56:07 <petern> 3TB would be a 600GB limit, which seems odd even for then.
12:56:08 <TrueBrain> it is getting really tempting 😄
12:57:38 <petern> > There's no issues with the disk size (750GB was just the biggest available when the 5200 came out, I'm using 5 x 1TB Samsung Spinpoint F1 drives),
12:58:29 <glx[d]> as long as you don't use FAT32 it's fine 🙂
12:59:49 <petern> That's the other thing, a 17 year old Linux is quite terrifying :p
13:06:36 <petern> And of course there's a video of someone putting Debian on it.
13:08:05 <petern> By soldering a VGA socket on to start with. Hmm. No.
13:09:11 <glx[d]> could not install in text mode ?
13:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't such a thing coming with an interface to upload a new image?
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17:11:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause where is the policy about "not SimCity" ? 🙂
17:12:01 <andythenorth> think it might be less of a policy, more "a thing some people say" 🙂
17:13:19 <andythenorth> (house placing might be compatible)
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17:33:01 <petern> Heh, manually placing town buildings seems to be the opposite of "less sandboxy" to me.
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18:11:55 <andythenorth> WASM town thing?
18:22:03 <TallTyler> Where’s the house placing discussion I’m missing?
18:22:33 <Brickblock1> It is on tt forums newgrf development
18:24:09 <TallTyler> Oh, what a silly place
18:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is that compatible with "Stay faithful to the original gameplay"?
18:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you want to place individual "houses", you can also code them as industries... they just won't have "population"
18:39:21 <TallTyler> Or we add specs to industries to produce and receive cargo, like houses 🙂
18:40:01 <TallTyler> Company HQ already does, although it’s hardcoded
18:40:02 <petern> Company HQ is technically an object 🙂
18:40:27 <TallTyler> Yeah, I was looking at that code recently for my cargo/economy scaling project
18:40:30 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> something that was always on my wishlist was objects that have vehicle paths (like roads)
18:43:09 <petern> We have a special tile type that can have roads on it.
18:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and when we finally have state machines, we can use those for things like drawbridges, onramps, ...
18:50:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is placing houses contrary to original gameplay? genuine question, not trying to win armchair arguments
18:51:15 <andythenorth> maybe the content API should do it
18:51:21 <andythenorth> I can probably write a GS to do it
18:51:28 <andythenorth> it will just be...terrible
18:52:18 <JGR> It's not really about gameplay at all
18:52:29 <JGR> It's just for decoration/worldbuilding/etc
18:52:52 <JGR> Model railway layout stuff
18:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not done with just enabling the house picker ingame. you also need to modify the game mechanics for closing down houses
18:59:32 <andythenorth> also how does it interact with grf?
18:59:37 <andythenorth> but these are just things
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19:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what interaction with grfs do you mean?
19:09:32 <pickpacket> Primary industries that don't receive service are likely to shut down. I get that, but; shouldn't they be replaced by new instances being generated?
19:10:46 <pickpacket> I've started a game where I just set up a train line to not go bankrupt, and then I'm running it on fast forward to see what happens
19:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a calculation how many of each type of industry should be on the map. the initial map generation can vary significantly from that. so some industries may close down without a direct replacement being needed
19:11:10 <pickpacket> I haven't kept track of all industries, I just focus on coal and tea tree farms
19:12:35 <pickpacket> Coal mines have gone from 142 in 1950 to 55 in 2010, and the tea tree farms have gone from 179 to 58 in that same time
19:13:13 <pickpacket> meanwhile banks and oil rigs have been popping up all over the place (and teahouses of course)
19:13:43 <pickpacket> of course oil wells have all disappeared, but the oil rigs just get more and more numerous
19:14:15 <pickpacket> I haven't looked at secondary industries at all
19:17:02 <pickpacket> the result is that primary industries which have not yet received any service close down over time, while tertiary industries increase
19:18:43 <pickpacket> I might be lying there, actually. I don't know how the number of power plants have changed, but teahouses inherit their appearance chances and conditions from the temperate banks and are thus increasingly common the longer the game goes on
19:20:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: player wants to build town according to their own plan, but house grf may demolish, replace, etc what they've placed
19:20:55 <andythenorth> then we have requests for flags or callbacks such as 'protect if player placed'
19:21:44 <pickpacket> andythenorth: but... it's not a city-building game...
19:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes? but what sets newgrf houses apart from base game houses in that regard?
19:23:35 <andythenorth> base game authors don't make requests
19:23:47 <andythenorth> CS is not in our github 😛
19:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure what you're actually asking
19:26:44 <andythenorth> if we make placing houses possible, what does the newgrf spec require?
19:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if there's a destry house callback with a "this building is protected" flag, there's no way to prevent the house grf from stomping on the ground and making the building a pile of dirt with 0 population instead
19:27:48 <andythenorth> which players won't like
19:27:53 <andythenorth> because model railroading
19:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why there would be a callback like that anyway
19:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's the reverse
19:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that callback would never be called for such a player-protected building
19:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> because the removal would be stopped earlier
19:37:42 <andythenorth> it's not an area of the spec I've ever used
19:37:51 <andythenorth> not trying to gatekeep house placement 😛
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20:09:19 <pickpacket> I think I'll write a forum post about this production/closure problem (well, what I perceive as a problem anyway)
20:11:31 <andythenorth> pickpacket, this may have changed, but the guidance for years was "make a GS to fix that"
20:13:33 <JGR> But then you have two problems
20:15:19 <andythenorth> only two general classes of problem
20:15:28 <andythenorth> if you're using GS you have at least two problems there
20:15:32 <andythenorth> the first being GS
20:16:02 <andythenorth> I should pitch better eh 😛
20:23:26 <pickpacket> andythenorth: soon you’ll tell me to use regex somewhere in that solution too
20:24:59 <pickpacket> I would argue that a GS is a workaround rather than a fix, but then if players in general feel that this is expected and intended gameplay rather than a problem a GS is definitely the way to go
20:26:12 <pickpacket> If it *is* generally perceived as a problem then it should be reported as a bug or a changed behaviour should be a feature request. Imho
20:27:59 <andythenorth> do we have an idea of what the correct behaviour is?
20:28:42 <pickpacket> No. And before there are concrete suggestions to discuss and test nothing can be done about it
20:29:24 <JGR> They simple solution is to just turn both industry closure and opening off
20:29:40 <JGR> This doesn't requires loads of hoop jumping via GS
20:32:00 <andythenorth> "the FIRS solution" ^
20:32:16 <andythenorth> it's a bit of a hammer
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21:31:42 <gnomechomsky> Anyone got an idea about that one?
21:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the pathfinding thing? it ignores reservations after some number of signals (i think 10), which is probably any random numbers going in a loop... so it chooses that loop if the length is less than the reservation cost
21:42:00 <andythenorth> so the search box...
21:42:17 <andythenorth> isn't so useful if action 0 name prop is not set 🙂
21:42:58 <andythenorth> I dropped that to save filesize
21:44:01 <gnomechomsky> Eddi|zuHause: Yes I had a hunch it was ignoring them after signals but I don't have a computer to check
21:44:38 <gnomechomsky> I've got a branch which fixes this issue with reservation costs if anyone's keen 😏😏
21:44:53 <JGR> You have forgotten to set all orders as non-stop
21:45:00 <JGR> If you do that the train behaves correctly
21:50:47 <gnomechomsky> glx[d]: oops I thought all that stuff was handled by the hooks. Thanks for catching it
21:51:10 <gnomechomsky> And the API change thing, I forgot to edit
21:51:17 <glx[d]> we don't have anything checking the style
21:52:10 <glx[d]> but .editorconfig is included in the repo
21:52:28 <glx[d]> and visual studio should use it
21:52:46 <glx[d]> (the else thing is typical from VS)
21:53:10 <gnomechomsky> What ide is it compatible with?
21:53:32 <gnomechomsky> Ah, all of them?
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21:56:05 <glx[d]> seems some cleanup would help
21:56:37 <gnomechomsky> Where do they come from
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22:06:04 <glx[d]> seems u+FEFF is also zero width NBSP (but this usage is deprecated)
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22:24:25 <petern> andythenorth: Hmm, so filtering/sorting based on the callback string if set
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