IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-05-18
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06:31:28 <petern> Oh yes, the rabbit-hole part.
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06:52:26 <TrueBrain> Someone is having fun 😄
06:55:15 <petern> I'm looking at these pointers and wondering if they even need to be pointers.
06:58:38 <petern> Ah in the layout case probably, as the value is passed into vector as a pointer.
07:00:00 <petern> CompanyProperties probably not, but SlObject needs something to load into.
07:33:17 <petern> Not sure though, that's likely additional overhead. And it's passed around a lot. Hmm.
07:36:29 <TrueBrain> lol, what package in fedora core supplied `useradd` .. now that is a mystery 😛
07:38:05 <TrueBrain> like .. how am I to guess that?
07:45:56 <LordAro> utils for /etc/shadow, of course!
08:08:23 <petern> Okay, we're not ready for const Font * :/
09:43:39 <orudge> TrueBrain: the 'free' plan for Zero Trust?
09:44:18 <orudge> TrueBrain: Done. I gave it the subdomain 'openttd' but it says you can change that if required later.
09:44:27 <TrueBrain> awesome, that was quick 😄
09:45:25 <petern> Windows' task bar has decided that not all programs need to have an icon.
11:15:16 <petern> Not seen that for ages 😄
11:21:04 <petern> Not to be confused with Smallmap.
11:21:30 <LordAro> SmallMap is dead, long live Smallmap
11:23:51 <petern> Hmm, I'm using that OpenTTD instance as... a MIDI player. But it's playing the Doom music, which sounds a bit odd when it doesn't loop every track.
11:28:46 <petern> (We tell people to just use an external music to play non-MIDI music. I use OpenTTD to play MIDI music)
11:42:23 <LordAro> should we be excited about zeph using nml (and finding bugs in it) ?
12:07:56 <petern> Can we replace/rename strecpy? My linter complains because it matches the name of an unsafe Oracle function... 😄
12:10:22 <LordAro> apparently there are currently 220 remaining usages of it
12:16:21 <Rubidium_> #10745 removes another 3
12:17:02 <Rubidium_> and #10810 will probably remove quite a few as well, though that still requires a lot of work
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13:30:30 <petern> newgrf.h:157 seem wrong. "We implicitly test" and then it goes on to explicitly test (and assert...)
13:42:40 <frosch> maybe it also needed a change to "availability"
13:43:32 <TrueBrain> seems logic, what you say 🙂 I am not sure if this overrides the other
13:45:07 <TrueBrain> yeah, replaced-by is just a frontend hint 🙂
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16:27:47 <petern> To align or not to align... that is the question.
16:30:07 <petern> Carefully choose member names so it's accidentally aligned...
16:31:12 <TrueBrain> `vvvariable`, `variable12`, yeah, that works 😛
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17:15:39 <zephyris> LordAro: Depends if you think I'm a useful pixel pusher or a loose cannon!
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17:43:27 <TallTyler> Somebody has to maintain OpenGFX, right? 🙂
17:43:54 <LordAro> so one of the many internal sites we at work have is a super dubious php thing that, among many other things, has links to delete things via GET requests
17:44:10 <LordAro> on tuesday we bought a licence for a set of SEO tools for the marketing people, that happens to include a web crawler
17:44:22 <LordAro> can you guess what i've spent this afternoon doing?
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17:44:44 <andythenorth> We once built a wiki tool with that feature
17:45:45 <andythenorth> Google crawler came by
17:46:40 <LordAro> this is very much internal
17:46:47 <LordAro> it's just never had a crawler come by before
17:46:56 <Rubidium_> LordAro: looking for the email where you warned management about it?
17:47:13 <LordAro> beyond the occasional browser pre-fetch making things seem "unreliable"
17:47:24 <LordAro> Rubidium_: we've been trying to replace this for at least 3 years now
17:47:30 <LordAro> the code makes my eyes bleed
17:58:25 <LordAro> is there a 'trains always turn around at stations' setting?
17:59:11 <CK2347> Maybe referring to 90 degree turns setting?
17:59:59 <LordAro> that alone wouldn't cause the train to turn around like that
18:00:14 <Rubidium_> petern: +1, -132 strecpy with #10810 :)
18:00:20 <LordAro> it isn't a "must use 90 degree turns if they're available :)
18:00:39 <CK2347> Maybe pathfinder issues
18:00:55 <CK2347> I haven't played Vanilla openttd for a long time
18:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> my first guess would be a "first red signal" penalty bigger than "turn around at station" penalty?
18:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or track reservation
18:06:03 <LordAro> it's not "go all the way around" big though
18:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a number of signals after which reservation is ignored
18:11:14 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: placing a signal after the station is _wrong_ though. then the single-track section could potentially deadlock
18:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably tweak penalties to "fix" this situation
18:12:16 <Rubidium_> I reckon it's indeed related to its own reservation. Though maybe it's not the cost of the reservation, but the fact that it starts pathfinding after the reservation and does not consider it already passed the station?!?
18:12:42 <nielsm> also, the savegame was originally created with a ton of newgrfs and those were removed from the game before the reporter uploaded it, which makes it really annoying to load
18:13:23 <nielsm> as far as I know, the pathfinder does consider passing over reserved track to be most costly than passing over idential unreserved track
18:13:43 <nielsm> so the train's own reservation is making the already-reserved path most costly than taking the detour
18:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the no-90-degrees setting will probably "solve" this, but it might reappear in a more extensive network
18:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> we'd have to introduce a special case for "ignore own reservation"
18:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which is probably difficult to check inside the pathfinder
18:18:17 <nielsm> or make trains always follow the reservation then have made before stopping at a station, together with never reserving past the end of platform for a scheduled stop
18:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> we're going through elaborate extra steps to continue reserving after a platform
18:19:13 <nielsm> and/or make trains drop their existing reservation when making a scheduled stop, but not drop existing reservation when making an implicit stop
18:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> we could remove that. but it'll reinforce the concept of "stations have builtin signals", which they don't
18:19:47 <LordAro> mm, adding an order to stop at Hagsaker still means that it reserves the path all the way through
18:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the "most correct" solution is to ignore all reservations until the first non-reserved tile
18:21:16 <nielsm> deprecate the "disallow train reversing in stations" setting and default it to enabled
18:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very wrong
18:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "we remove a feature just because some guy found a weird corner case after 20 years"
18:22:38 <nielsm> in original TT, that setting is part of the difficulty, it's disabled on "easy" and enabled on the harder difficulties, but in my opinion having it disabled makes the game harder, not easier
18:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to disable reversing, until we fixed the pathfinder to make more intelligent choices about when to reverse
18:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ... because particularly it clashed with "firstred twoway eol"
18:24:26 <nielsm> ideally, the train should continue along the reservation it made before entering the station, even if that reservation will bring it in a wrong direction, but that would effectively mean that trains can never reverse in non-terminus stations
18:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make much sense either
18:26:20 <TallTyler> ^^ I've proposed a selection of dates, and one location, that line up with my work trip for Germany. Go cast your vote if you're interested in attending!
18:38:46 <nielsm> it turns out that taking the train to brussels will actually be cheaper than flying, but also a gigantic hassle
18:41:21 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:41:47 <LordAro> hmm, eurostar isn't completely unreasonable
18:41:51 <LordAro> (just mostly unreasonable)
18:42:00 <jfs-> this is not reasonable, especially not at night
18:42:24 <LordAro> we may have different views on train pricing
18:42:58 <LordAro> eurostar return (and that's not including actually getting to/from london, nor anything else) is ~£150
18:43:44 <LordAro> but apparently i can do York to Brussels in 4.5 hours
18:43:59 <frosch> hmm, frankfurt to brussels is only 3 train hours, that's shorter than to north germany
18:44:04 <jfs-> this looks more reasonable, until you get to the "wait for 4h42m at köln hbf in the middle of the night"
18:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> jfs-: does that include 4h at a random staton during the night?
18:44:43 <frosch> jfs-: 2tt is staying near köln, you could have a pre-meetup :p
18:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i could probably get to köln for "free"... with 5 questionable transfers
18:46:36 <andythenorth> jfs-: You can go look at the cathedral
18:46:40 <TallTyler> I also considered options in Germany, but those were less reasonable for UK folks
18:46:46 <TallTyler> Wuppertal, for instance
18:46:50 <andythenorth> Koln is fun at night
18:47:59 <LordAro> I could theoretically do June 10/11, am away the other weekend
18:48:40 <jfs-> I suppose the additional cost of a flight more than makes up the inconvenience of travelling west of germany by train from denmark
18:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the most reasonable connection i found arrives at 13:42 and costs 100€ if booked in advance, or 130€ if booked spontaneously
18:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some slightly cheaper connections on other times
19:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and some really weird connections
19:00:11 <nnyby> oh damn, i would love to join but summer flights to europe from the states is insane right now, cost-wise
19:00:30 <nnyby> i should just move to europe, realistically
19:02:35 <jfs-> arriving in brussels before noon by train from direction of germany seems to be difficult, there are very few direct trains
19:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> a "normal" train connection transfers once in frankfurt and once in brussels. and "weird" connections transfer in hannover, duisburg, viersen, venlo, eindhoven, breda and mechelen
19:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> targeting noon seems to be pretty hopeless
19:08:30 <Rubidium_> sounds like carpooling might be more efficient :(
19:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> trying to arrive at noon involves taking a night train effectively in the opposite direction :p
19:08:33 <jfs-> I don't think I'd be able to attend a meetup anywhere (outside denmark or southern sweden) without including an overnight stay regardless of what time of day it is
19:09:25 <jfs-> and an overnight stay is honestly fine too, I just have to consider it a mini vacation and do something more in the city too
19:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ... but the time on the night train isn't enough to actually sleep through it
19:09:46 <TrueBrain> I assumed LordAro and petern will come by bike? 😛
19:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> are there pedal-powered ferries? :p
19:13:08 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: shocking what I am about to say, but .. you can put a bike on a ferry!
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19:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like putting a bike on a train...
19:19:21 <Rubidium_> there's a tunnel you can take your bike through, isn't there?
19:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's allowed if you aren't in a train
19:21:56 <LordAro> 3ish times, all as publicity stunts
19:22:16 <LordAro> don't let you near the maintenance tunnel otherwise
19:27:07 <andythenorth> how can I make Horse compile faster?
19:28:32 <andythenorth> won't make the nml rendering step faster 😛
19:28:51 <andythenorth> currently chameleon template step is 4s
19:28:53 <andythenorth> that's achingly slow
19:29:19 <andythenorth> it's only templating 793 items
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19:29:38 <Brickblock1> andythenorth: Write it in assembly
19:29:44 <andythenorth> that's 0.005s per file
19:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i can make the trip for about 30€, but then i'm travelling for a whole day or so :p
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19:31:18 <andythenorth> the name string callback handling for variants is quite expensive to template
19:33:01 <petern> Rewrite nml in c++? (rust?)
19:33:52 <petern> Rewrite grfcodec in c++? 😄
19:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> multithreaded grfcodec? :p
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19:35:49 <andythenorth> all of the slow I'm looking at is outside nml
19:35:54 <andythenorth> although nml is also slow
19:36:30 <andythenorth> graphics processing is also slow, 5s
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19:40:06 <andythenorth> wonder if multiprocessing will be faster
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19:41:52 <frosch> hmm, i would not have expected a place in brussels to offer tours only in french and dutch
19:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, even if i could make one of those weekends work, there's no way to do it in a single day
19:46:29 <TrueBrain> nobody is asking you to do it in a single day 🙂
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20:59:43 <frosch> TallTyler: can you edit the top/main post of the discussion? or shall i copy some info from your post to the main post?
21:31:39 <frosch> thanks, I was not sure whether you had enough permissions 🙂
21:34:30 <Rubidium_> you have a branch for that?
21:35:48 <Rubidium_> we must stop to think alike ;D
21:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or divide up the work space :p
21:39:59 <Rubidium_> oh... it's already conflicted
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