IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-03-29
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07:01:25 <andythenorth> what if vehicles, instead of expiring, were hidden
07:01:50 <andythenorth> "cannot clone train, vehicle is no longer available" is quite annoying message
07:02:08 <andythenorth> I guess reliability etc would be a headache
07:14:44 <petern> Yes, I'll just go out and buy that 1960s Citroen DS 23 for original prices...
07:15:29 <petern> Making clone aware of autoreplace settings might be handy.
07:17:18 <andythenorth> petern: infinite supply of used vehicles 😛
07:17:46 <andythenorth> hmm variants, model remains available, 1/3 the price, 3x the running cost, 15 year lifespan
07:18:06 <petern> Can't they just 3D print them to order these days...
07:18:35 <andythenorth> wasn't Tornado 3D printed?
07:18:59 <petern> Should I do a bike ride in dodgy weather or just sit around at home all day?
07:21:49 <andythenorth> riding in bad weather has health benefits
07:21:53 <andythenorth> if you do it often
07:24:11 <Rubidium_> looks like you should take a pedalo ;D
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07:48:17 <pickpacket> The Floss '47' is available from 1962. Does it ever stop being available? I can't recall
07:54:57 <petern> Cheat to 2050 and console reset_engines to check.
08:01:31 <pickpacket> I would, except I'm at work :P
08:14:03 <pickpacket> Had I worked from home I could have checked 😉
08:15:01 <pickpacket> I’d like to fill in information about end-of-availability dates for all the trains on the wiki
08:18:36 <Rubidium_> can't you just run OpenTTD in a web browser at work? If you can connect to here, why not to OpenTTD in a web browser?
08:36:10 <pickpacket> Rubidium_: I have it installed on my work computer. The problem is people seeing it ,9
09:13:19 <petern> Or hearing it... HONK HONK
09:19:20 <pickpacket> petern: I wish it was
09:19:47 <pickpacket> I want to eat now, but all of my colleagues here at the office have meetings until 12
09:40:20 <dP> andythenorth: interesting idea, can also be another option for "vehicles never expire" setting
09:40:36 <dP> I don't find vehicle hiding particularly useful in it's current form
09:43:50 <dP> especially with newgrf that have shitton of vehicles hiding them all every time is a quite tiresome
09:44:26 <dP> and having hidden state shared in the company is confusing
09:45:19 <dP> for citymania I was thinking of having hiding tracked for each client and stored in the db for each game mode so it can be restored at the start of each game
09:51:31 <discord_user_f4a0790> dP: This
09:54:43 <pickpacket> can vehicles be hidden?
09:55:21 <petern> engine types can be hidden from purchase lists, that's not quite hiding vehicles 🙂
09:55:32 <discord_user_f4a0790> But if you’re doing multiplayer then it hides them for everyone on your company
09:56:05 <discord_user_f4a0790> pickpacket: Ctrl click on them
09:56:23 <discord_user_f4a0790> Clears up the purchase menu
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10:13:49 <petern> Okay but Citroen "oli", what were they thinking...
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11:44:18 <andythenorth> petern: yeah I should
11:44:26 <andythenorth> we have loads of tomatoes and things
11:44:31 <andythenorth> aren't they rare now?
11:44:45 <petern> Apparently. I think I must have them all.
11:45:48 <andythenorth> Oli, I like it. Looks like you could stand on the roof etc
11:45:58 <andythenorth> my friend has a defender, you can just walk all over it
11:45:58 <pickpacket> andythenorth: is it possible to add more industries to FIRS at this point? Or is FIRS compatible with other industry NewGRFs?
11:46:22 <andythenorth> pickpacket you can make your own FIRS with truegrf
11:47:40 <petern> Ah you know you're playing a quality Doom WAD when you enter a room with a modelled toilet, sink and mirror...
11:48:18 <pickpacket> andythenorth: I tried truegrf when I started making tea tea deluxe, but I found it a bit difficult :P
12:04:07 <pickpacket> I’d rather run FIRS + some other industry NewGRF. But is that possible?
12:04:42 <Brickblock1> It is but if firs changes it could break
12:04:58 <Brickblock1> You can't add your own cargoes
12:05:22 <Brickblock1> Or you can but not if all slots are used
12:20:09 <petern> What do you do on your annual leave? Go on holiday, do fun activities, or sit on your computer making PRs...?
12:22:21 <andythenorth> take your computer on holiday and sit making PRs
12:23:58 <petern> While on a bike ride...
12:25:36 <pickpacket> petern: I dunno... mostly try to entertain the kids. This year I'll have them by myself for three weeks. In a 48 square metre flat...
12:25:58 <pickpacket> I really don't know what to do with them to avoid disaster
12:33:39 <pickpacket> I don't want to :(
12:34:04 <pickpacket> thinking that maybe I can plan a trip for us for a few days. Traveling is *expensive*
12:34:17 <pickpacket> and it's not like hotel rooms are any more spacious
12:34:46 <pickpacket> nor train compartments
12:36:20 <pickpacket> I requested three weeks, but I'm going to ask my ex if I can rescind on that and have two weeks instead. Then I'd have one week first, then she'd have two, and then I'd have one again
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12:45:39 <FLHerne> pickpacket: You can add your own industries, but FIRS uses pretty much all the cargo slots
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12:46:14 <FLHerne> actually, I don't know what happens in the FIRS Basic economies
12:46:55 <FLHerne> are the cargos that don't appear in game still taking up slots, or not?
12:47:49 <MatthiasU> Resurrecting openttdcoop would work of course … I might be able to help with that
12:50:48 <FLHerne> it's been intermittently dead and resurrected a few times recently
12:51:16 <FLHerne> (last couple of years)
12:52:43 <pickpacket> MatthiasU: what's zbuild?
12:56:05 <MatthiasU> @pickpacket zbuild or zbasebuild is the tool you need to convert the Blender source files in the zbase (or abase) baseline newgrf to nice 32bit PNGs
12:56:55 <MatthiasU> I'm using jgrpp which has 16 sprites that aren't in zbase; I want to fix that
12:57:42 <pickpacket> I'd never heard of neither zbase nor abase 😆
12:58:06 <FLHerne> I think zbase was already forked to abase a while ago?
12:58:25 <FLHerne> oh, still uses the same build tool then
12:58:33 <MatthiasU> you can find them on the download screen if you scroll to exactly the right position 😛
12:59:10 <FLHerne> pickpacket: they come up here from time to time, when TrueBrain complains about the download size
13:00:10 <dP> pickpacket: you missed nothing 😜
13:01:41 <MatthiasU> dP: depends whether you like 32bit baseline graphics. I for one am not a fan of pixel graphics. Like, at all. Ugh.
13:02:07 <MatthiasU> except for Minecraft of course +g*
13:02:17 <petern> It's not that they're 32bpp pixel graphics, it's that they're terrible 32bpp pixel graphics.
13:03:33 <MatthiasU> petern: are there any that are better?
13:03:54 <petern> Well the original TTD 8bpp graphics are a lot better.
13:04:17 <dP> also wth, why can't I react to any of the petern messages :/
13:04:24 <petern> I've seen some decent non-baseset (afaik) 32bpp graphics too, not sure what though.
13:04:53 <ag> 32bpp doesn't fit in a 8bpp game honestly
13:05:21 <dP> petern: ui stuff like cursor didn't age well though
13:05:44 <petern> 32bpp works fine, badly made 4x zoom does not.
13:06:18 <ag> other than Rollercoaster tycoon ofc
13:09:01 * pickpacket loves the 8bpp graphics
13:09:15 <pickpacket> if it ain't fixed, don't break it
13:10:29 <pickpacket> my love for 8bpp could be partly because I think that's hard enough to draw nice sprites in :) 32bpp would be oh so much harder
13:11:37 <TallTyler> Just more colours 😉
13:11:46 <TallTyler> You probably mean extrazoom
13:12:09 <TallTyler> Bits per pixel is just the number of colours available per pixel, not the number of pixels
13:18:09 <dP> 4x is a nightmare, 16 times the amount of pixels to get wrong xD
13:23:03 <pickpacket> TallTyler: 🤦 I meant zoom levels...
13:24:18 <pickpacket> though to be fair I think the 8bpp palette is plenty good enough too
13:29:38 <TallTyler> 4x zoom is fine if you render the sprites from a 3D model. I’ve done with from magicavoxel using GoRender and it looks quite nice, I just prefer the pixel look. GETS is like this.
13:33:53 <Timberwolf> I'd quite like a rendered base set in the style of turn of the century isometric, sort of Sim City 3000 or Gangsters aesthetic.
13:34:11 <Timberwolf> Not enough to learn a modelling package made this century and actually make one, mind.
13:34:18 <MatthiasU> TallTyler: I do mean extra zoom levels – but in this context "extra zoom" and "32 bpp" are somewhat synonymous because IMHO without an alpha channel that's larger than a single bit, sprites built from a 3D model don't look right.
13:34:18 <MatthiasU> Anyway, to get back on topic, if nobody has that `zbasebuild` code around, maybe somebody knows how to contact the openttdcoop people so that I can offer my help resurrecting the site?
13:35:02 <TallTyler> Timberwolf: You wouldn’t want to use your usual workflow? I did some houses in it and quite liked the workflow - building with cubes makes even more sense for buildings than for trains.
13:35:25 <TallTyler> I was doing 1x zoom but it felt a lot like Minecraft
13:35:57 <Timberwolf> My tools are good for pixelly stuff, but I think to get something in that sort of Gangsters/Constructor mould you'd need something with better lighting and modelling of arbitrary shapes.
13:36:21 <petern> One problem with rendered 32bpp 4x sprites is alpha on tile edges, that's a bad idea.
13:36:36 <TallTyler> I haven’t played either, so I don’t know the style 🤷
13:37:15 <dP> petern: you can render plane and just cut the tile out
13:42:02 <FLHerne> sadly I don't think it's yet seen a release
13:46:51 <petern> Ah yes, first picture from 14 years ago 🙂
13:47:23 <FLHerne> last one from less than 2
13:47:30 <Timberwolf> Yeah, Gold Rush is lovely, but also shows the difficulty of doing this kind of thing as a one-person project in your spare time.
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13:50:52 <petern> It also suffers from trying to be too different in a way that isn't supported for basesets.
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15:01:15 <petern> Decino: <kills a cyberdemon with 2 bfg shots>
15:01:30 <petern> Me: <fires 4 shots, it's still alive, i'm not>
15:01:59 <petern> Correction, 6 this time...
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16:05:47 <petern> "Now that you stopped this thing from happening, can you add a method to allow this thing to happen?"
16:24:39 <FLHerne> well, presumably they went to the trouble of doing it for a reason
16:26:21 <FLHerne> I don't understand why though
16:26:53 <FLHerne> it seems analogous to the base game's rivers-vs-canals thing which I find annoying
16:28:12 <FLHerne> petern: that particular objection seems a bit non-sequitur
16:32:13 <petern> I knew it... another archvile and cyberdemon
16:33:54 <FLHerne> "Flag A was supposed to be used for something else, so we stopped from being used for B" isn't an argument against enabling doing B
16:34:39 <petern> Read my message more literally.
16:34:51 <FLHerne> if anything, that multiple authors misused A for it suggests B is useful
16:35:55 <FLHerne> I don't quite get why people want it, but clearly they do
16:38:34 <FLHerne> petern: I don't see how to read it more literally than what it says :p
16:38:55 <petern> There is no need to add a flag to do what he wants.
16:39:27 <petern> (You can simply revert (or tweak) the change that prevented it.)
16:40:23 <petern> I don't say we can't do that behaviour, I say we don't need a new flag to do it.
16:40:41 <FLHerne> Ok, I understand what you mean now
16:40:44 <petern> Everybody is so used to reading between the lines they can't read literally any more...
16:41:43 <petern> If they can actually explain why this needs to exist that would be helpful.
16:42:07 <FLHerne> well, the fact you proposed #10546 (ish) and #10574 strongly implies you don't want to revert it
16:42:52 <FLHerne> so reading your last message as a suggestion to simply revert it is unexpected
16:43:06 <andythenorth> there is a detailed explanation in discord jgr channel of why people do this
16:43:15 <FLHerne> I agree with the explanation
16:43:40 <petern> This it the openttd-development channel, or there is, uh, an open issue on github for it...
16:44:23 <FLHerne> yeah, given it's not bridged I won
16:44:27 <petern> And no, your reading between the lines is my opinion, if I was suggesting a revert I would write that.
16:45:25 <FLHerne> my sloppy wording, I mean conditionally suggesting a revert if the behaviour is wanted
16:45:58 <FLHerne> if _HIDDEN being used for this is 'wrong' then a new flag would seem desirable
16:47:15 <andythenorth> or we explore why this behaviour is wanted at all
16:53:53 <FLHerne> belatedly, *won't have seen anything in there
17:05:49 <andythenorth> TL;DR some kind of 'magic road' is wanted?
17:06:07 <andythenorth> EmperorJake: ? ^
17:09:59 <andythenorth> yeah that's the point I'm not understanding: why can't the player build these roads?
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18:08:15 <TallTyler> Another example, Wasteland generates ruined roads that are not player-buildable
18:10:20 <FLHerne> or do they function something like dirt tracks
18:17:19 * andythenorth wonders if this is a case of "roadtype list UI sucks as a drop down list"
18:17:31 <andythenorth> are we just hiding them to keep the list shorter?
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21:03:35 <pickpacket> My gf is getting seriously addicted to this game
21:04:30 <pickpacket> Called me earlier and said ”what are you doing tonight? Can we continue on that multiplayer map?”
21:05:22 <pickpacket> been on the phone with her for two hours while we both played separate maps, talking about station ratings and stuff
21:06:08 <pickpacket> Kuhnovic: I’m committed to our relationship, but I’m not going to marry anyone again 😆
21:06:23 <pickpacket> But yes, she’s a keeper for sure
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