IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-01-10
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04:40:43 <kamnet> I like the XIS hotel for being near urban areas and I like the old FIRS hotel for more remote areas. I like the hotel quite a bit. If you had an economy with tourists and workers that might be interesting but kinda hard to sort out when it comes to trains at least.
04:41:41 <reldred> auto refit to available cargo 🙂
04:42:18 <kamnet> But that means dirty tired workers in your nice clean first class cars
04:42:53 <kamnet> But yeah basically workers, tourists, all passengers.
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10:57:47 <Samu> } while (_settings_game.ai.ai_start_next == 0);
10:58:17 <Samu> if it is the first time, it always is the next times... the "while" part is... misleading that it could be anything else
11:44:50 <petern> Hmm, must be cold, the heating has come on.
11:54:41 <pickpacket> is it possible to build a merge of two train tracks where no train on one line has to stop and wait for a train on the other line?
11:55:55 <petern> If two trains are arriving at the same time, one of them has to stop.
11:59:55 <glx[d]> But there are ways to priorise one of the tracks
12:00:55 <Gwyd> Or you can timetable them to be different
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12:15:05 <dP> pickpacket: iirc there were some designs on coop wiki but they're too complex for any practical purpose
12:18:12 <pickpacket> haha, yeah that looks a bit impractical
12:33:55 <dP> hm, I suddenly came up with prio merge idea I've never seen before
12:34:15 <dP> use paths of diferent length to adjust train arrival time to fit in the gap
12:38:24 <LordAro> the 2 trains need to arrive at exactly the same time though
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12:39:06 <petern> Disable all signals and train collisions, then they can just carry on like nothing is there.
12:39:36 <FLHerne> that seems like the logical conclusion from making road crossings work that way :p
12:40:05 <FLHerne> anyone know offhand what the case is where road vehicles drive through the ones in front?
12:40:12 <FLHerne> I see it happen sometimes and it looks very odd
12:40:34 <FLHerne> but don't pay enough attention to remember exactly when
12:41:24 <pickpacket> FLHerne: I've never seen that
12:42:26 <LordAro> petern: i'm curious how well that would work
12:43:05 <pickpacket> LordAro: I typically have a backbone of two tracks (one each direction) going through the entire map. Cargoes are collected in each end and more or less all trains end up spending the majority of their travel on that line. The merges can be quite problematic
12:43:08 <FLHerne> station loading states might go wrong with multiple trains
12:43:35 <pickpacket> When I scale up and add more tracks I don't know how to basically tell half of the trains to use the new tracks
12:44:14 <pickpacket> a majority of them end up using the same track, whether the new or the old, which means my merge problems are only slightly reduced
12:45:06 <pickpacket> the map I'm currently on I've ended up separating them by cargo -- coal and passengers on one line and all other cargo on a second
12:45:24 <pickpacket> it's not ideal, but it removes the most problematic merges I had
12:45:59 <pickpacket> I'd rather have a shared backbone, because I find that fascinating and interesting to make it work
12:46:26 <pickpacket> and getting utilization up to near 100% would be really cool
12:46:38 <LordAro> pickpacket: sounds like you should take a look at the openttdcoop wiki
12:47:30 <FLHerne> look at the Mergers, BBHs, etc.
12:47:46 <FLHerne> but is the logical conclusion of that style of gameplay
12:53:15 <pickpacket> Now I know what I'll be doing tonight :D
12:53:29 <petern> Making you network ugly
12:54:11 <LordAro> it took me a long time to "unlearn" the ottdc style
12:54:18 <LordAro> and i was never that involved
13:06:57 <andythenorth> is this a prio merge?
13:07:45 <andythenorth> here are 2 super merges
13:07:55 <andythenorth> at least one has tunnels
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13:13:02 <JustANortherner> These are awful Andy, wow...
13:22:22 <dP> those are prio merges in a sense that rebuilding them should be a priority :p
13:36:30 <petern> I think you're meant to flatten the terrain first...
13:47:23 <glx[d]> This road would appreciate a tunnel
14:02:27 <Samu> what's your opinion on doing a Random every tick?
14:10:07 <andythenorth> petern: I had to use a mountainous map
14:10:21 <andythenorth> I couldn't find whichever magic combination of settings produces actual 'hilly'
14:10:26 <andythenorth> instead of just 'flat with bumps'
14:13:12 <TallTyler> The trick is not to crank either variety distribution or smoothness to either end of the scale -- somewhere in the middle is best
14:14:59 <LordAro> Samu: don't if you don't need to
14:19:11 <andythenorth> I might have done it wrong
14:33:10 <petern> Font Smoothness: Smooth
14:34:14 <LordAro> smooth with a capital smoo
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15:08:20 <pickpacket> I think I might just let my tracks jam now and then...
15:13:35 <LordAro> pickpacket: i recommend pro game 5
15:13:56 <LordAro> should be on the wiki
15:16:48 <LordAro> the save should be somewhere
15:17:10 <pickpacket> yeah, the page with the save linked to that image
15:20:08 <pickpacket> andythenorth: all the merges you showed have the exact same problem as mine. If two trains arrive at the junction at the same time one will have to stop
15:20:30 <andythenorth> mine are deliberately lolz 🙂
15:20:52 <pickpacket> mine are accidentally lolz
15:30:30 <petern> pickpacket: Because there is no way to stop that.
15:31:15 <TallTyler> There are some circletron designs to keep trains moving until there’s space for them on the main line but I don’t know if they work
15:31:24 <Samu> LordAro, I wanted replayability via restart. ;/
15:31:35 <pickpacket> they probably do, but the question is if it's worth it
15:32:04 <TallTyler> IIRC they’re enormous and ugly, but it depends on the player 🙂
15:32:17 <pickpacket> if a train has to stop and takes a moment to get back to full speed, is that much different from circling around for a while at full speed for no reason? :)
15:32:53 <TallTyler> I think the idea is that it enters the main line going full speed and doesn’t slow down other main line trains while accelerating
15:37:07 <dP> I like how cyclotron discussion keeps going in circles 😜
15:39:22 <petern> Programmable signals pls
15:40:16 <Samu> is SavedRandomSeeds gonna do what I think it does?
15:41:19 <petern> It's for temporarily using a different random seed.
15:43:57 <supermop_toil> i for one would be pretty annoyed if the train i was on was stuck going around a loop
15:46:03 <petern> Going around in a loop seems to mean you need to ignore pathfinding some how.
15:49:12 <supermop_toil> hard to get pink buildings right in the dos palette
15:49:34 <supermop_toil> have to use a few brick colors, a few actual pinks, and some tans
15:54:56 <MnHebi> petern: Oh there is...enough programmable signals and enforced speed limits ;)
15:55:52 <supermop_toil> petern: where is the fun in that
15:56:09 <supermop_toil> what color is that? cream?
15:57:03 <supermop_toil> have to dither white or tan with pinks to get it
15:57:18 <supermop_toil> this is a little more clearly pink
15:57:47 <supermop_toil> but those pinks don't exist in the palette - you have to go REALLY pink
15:58:21 <petern> The in-game cream is halfway between cream and pink
15:58:43 <supermop_toil> oddly the verdigris roofs are easily represented in the palette
15:58:51 <petern> supermop_toil: The fun is you can pick a limited range of extra colours, and carry on drawing and be happy with the result 😉
15:59:48 <supermop_toil> having only 8 shades of green instead of millions is a little easier at times
16:00:17 <supermop_toil> rather than trying to get it just right, you just pick, "this is the closest i can get"
16:00:54 <petern> That's why I suggest a limited range, rather than just anything from 32bpp.
16:00:58 <andythenorth> combine different ranges
16:01:25 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: that's what i am doing for the hotel pink at the moment
16:02:18 <supermop_toil> the rail terminal i might leave as white not cream, as about half of the mission-style buildings in HNL are just white
16:02:40 <supermop_toil> the other half are various beiges, tans, creams, and pinks
16:03:17 <supermop_toil> but white with tile roof looks too similar to the old Ogfx tropic base set to me
16:04:08 <supermop_toil> do stations have an age callback? maybe i will make it get less white with age
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16:09:31 <Samu> I'm currently abusing SavedRandomSeeds and RestoreRandomSeeds, testing vs desyncs and none so far!
16:12:17 <Samu> regression test also becomes unaffected
16:17:08 <Pruple> petern: that's what the ol' firstred_twoway_eol 1 does, isn't it? 🙂
16:21:11 <petern> No idea, I don't mess with such things.
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16:43:45 <supermop_toil> just timetable all your trains so they arrive at the junction when it's clear
17:02:02 <petern> Build single train point to point lines everywhere.
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17:53:17 <andythenorth> is it beer time?
17:53:21 <andythenorth> with apologies to non-drinkers
17:53:24 <andythenorth> but I think it might be
17:54:01 <LordAro> first i need to go buy milk
17:54:09 <LordAro> because i've just got back to my flat, and it's a bit empty
17:56:56 <petern> I do have milk though.
18:00:16 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: i've got this in the fridge at the moment
18:02:43 <supermop_toil> it's decent as far as cheap bodega beer goes
18:04:05 <petern> Hmm, I do have some whisky though
18:04:53 <supermop_toil> only whisky or any whiskey as well?
18:05:24 <andythenorth> one considers wine also
18:05:44 <supermop_toil> i finished some starward whisk(e)y from oz last week
18:06:09 <supermop_toil> now only have tequilla,
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18:25:13 <Samu> it has already been done, and answers my question why it was always doing the same between restarts
18:26:51 <andythenorth> petern: variant category separator labels?
18:26:53 <andythenorth> and subtypes of them?
18:30:42 <Samu> simplifies code even more, no need to save randomseeds
18:31:42 <Samu> but regression will have changes again, as it is tested in SP
18:32:22 <Samu> what's the better approach?
18:40:36 <glx[d]> using ScriptBase::RandomRange() seems to be the best solution
18:41:16 <petern> Yeah that's a better way than abusing save/restore.
18:41:54 <glx[d]> reproducible result when testing locally, and safe for network games
18:45:26 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:34 <glx[d]> `ScriptConfig::AddRandomDeviation` could also use that, again to have reproducible local stuff
18:47:33 <glx[d]> as I remember you complain a lot about the random deviation
19:11:46 <dP> running `bytes(1279869266)` in a attempt to get label as a string was a mistake...
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19:40:07 <Samu> was trying to look for more random stuff in scripts and came up with those
19:40:42 <Samu> well, it's multiplayer safe, but probably not gonna be repeatable with game restarts, need to test this theory
19:40:58 <nielsm> InteractiveRandom is not bound to the game state
19:41:19 <Samu> I don't know of any AI that builds / prospects industries
19:41:33 <Samu> i suppose gamescripts use it
19:41:36 <nielsm> using it will not disrupt the RNG state for deterministic game simulation, but it's also not repeatable
19:42:45 <nielsm> it's not something you need to test, it's something you can with with certainty that it has those properties
19:45:54 <supermop_toil> WHY DOES IT NEED TO BE REPEATABLE?
19:46:43 <Samu> for reproducing issues it can be helpful
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19:59:50 <petern> supermop_toil yes but we were all thinking it 🙂
20:04:11 <supermop_toil> if the game does something random, but does it in a repeatable way, isn't it just not random?
20:11:51 <Samu> weird stuff with town & industry stabilizer
20:12:24 <Samu> if i start from new game, the industries are built at the start, if i then type restart, no industries are built :(
20:12:47 <Samu> town & industry control, my bad
20:13:03 <Samu> shows how much I test GS'es
20:35:52 <Samu> _settings_game.difficulty.industry_density becomes 0 (FUND ONLY) when a GS is present somehow? why
20:36:25 <Samu> then when it restarts that's the value it uses for the restarted game, :(
20:38:05 <supermop_toil> most have pretty ugly roofs
20:50:37 <dP> Samu: some gs change settings
20:55:33 <Samu> okay, just found out it's the GS GSGameSettings.SetValue("difficulty.industry_density", 0)
20:59:04 <petern> Huh, it is absolutely pissing down.
21:04:12 <Samu> are AIs allowed to change game settings? or only GSs?
21:04:33 <petern> Can players change game settings?
21:04:51 <petern> Heh, well I guess local player can 😄
21:05:08 <petern> Can remote players in a network game change game settings?
21:05:37 <Samu> AIs are played on the local machine/server
21:06:07 <Samu> let me try GSGameSettings.SetValue("difficulty.industry_density", 0)
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21:06:43 <I-IUI-IBlakhole73I-I> what is the scripting launguage
21:07:03 <I-IUI-IBlakhole73I-I> i only know lua
21:07:34 <FLHerne> (version 2; updating to Squirrel 3 would break backwards compatibility)
21:08:02 <FLHerne> Squirrel and Lua are quite similar as languages go
21:09:03 <I-IUI-IBlakhole73I-I> im trash at scripting tho
21:12:33 <Samu> tested, AI's can use SetValue
21:13:22 <Samu> the index 'SetValue' does not exist
21:15:14 <dP> petern: they can change company settings like service interval
21:30:15 <EmperorJake> Turns out AXIS makes this window very long
21:31:13 <petern> I forgot I had ideas about tweaking it, but also someone had ideas about removing that.
21:31:24 <Brickblock1> 512 cargo types when?
21:33:12 <JGR> No-one wants a purchase list with 1024 variant trees of wagons
21:34:19 <petern> They want them hidden behind 1024 refits 😄
21:35:47 <andythenorth> JGR: that's because they want 2048
21:36:10 <andythenorth> what else can I delete from Horse?
21:36:30 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: 2048 style variants
21:36:43 <andythenorth> I am puzzled about electric Horses
21:36:48 <supermop_toil> combine two BR blue 37s to get a large logo 37
21:37:11 <supermop_toil> combine two large logo 37s to get a sectorization one...
21:37:41 <supermop_toil> if your depot gets too full of uncombineable 37s, game over
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21:43:46 <reldred> andythenorth: If you delete that gorgeous little cargo sprinter I’m going to fly to the UK, hunt you down, and throw hands.
21:45:30 <andythenorth> it's mostly these on the chopping block
21:45:35 <andythenorth> they got added for a reason, there are commits about it
21:45:44 <andythenorth> but the commits don't explain the full reason, and I've forgotten
21:45:49 <andythenorth> looks to me like just livery stuff
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21:46:42 <petern> What's wrong with them?
21:47:13 <frosch> maybe they give bonus points in train whack?
21:47:56 <petern> Receive an achievement for using all variants.
21:48:00 <frosch> hmm, would train whack work as a GS?
21:48:47 <frosch> points for transporting cargo with as many vehicle types as possible: different vehicles in same consist, no consist like the other?
21:48:51 <andythenorth> I think it should be a button in the buy menu 😛
21:49:11 <andythenorth> petern: nothing, just enjoying deleting things
21:49:24 <andythenorth> variants instead
21:49:32 <Gwyd> Articulated vehicle train whack
21:56:33 <petern> Flippable articulated road vehicles?
22:02:23 <supermop_toil> almost beer time in new york
22:02:43 <andythenorth> I should have had another
22:02:51 <supermop_toil> probably getting a sazerac instead though, taking brother out for his birthday
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22:30:32 <Samu> making random more predictable :)
22:31:07 <Samu> i'm surprised there's no AIs that use BuildIndustry or ProspectIndustry
22:35:17 <Samu> can't prospect industry due to bad luck, why am I receiving this message as a player of another company?
22:36:20 <TallTyler> That's a new change, maybe it wasn't tested properly with AI
22:36:31 <TallTyler> Hmm, wonder if it does the same with network games?
22:39:23 <TallTyler> Hmm, that should be fixed...
22:40:01 <Samu> and im a spectator on the client
22:40:06 <Rubidium> TallTyler: yeah, don't attempt to show messages or whatever in Cmds. But in this situation that's a nasty situation
22:40:22 <TallTyler> Are you already opening an issue or should I?
22:40:47 <dP> Rubidium: there are some commands that show messages already
22:40:54 <dP> they just test for IsLocalCompany
22:41:01 <TallTyler> And then I'll try to fix it later this week, since I approved it 🙃
22:41:22 <Rubidium> even that's not right, as then other players in the same company get the same error
22:44:15 <Rubidium> dP: though that's the only one
22:44:31 <Samu> "due to bad luck" is kinda... unreal the way it's worded
22:45:18 <TallTyler> PRs welcomed to change the wording 🙂
22:45:21 <Samu> doesn't feel real-life'ish
22:46:48 <Rubidium> though... that's a bribe and maybe everyone in the company should know about it. Although under that same train of thought you could argue failed prospects should get the same treatment
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22:49:26 <Rubidium> so either checking for IsLocalCompanyy() could be a quick fix, or a different way should be devised that shows the message only to the client that triggered the command, and that should then also apply to bribes
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22:52:18 <petern> Don't command errors normally only go to the client?
22:52:33 <Rubidium> petern: sure, but ShowErrorMessage calls don't
22:53:06 <Rubidium> and a bribe/prospect failing still yields a "success" CommandCost
22:54:53 <Rubidium> maybe the trick CmdClearArea uses can be (mis)used?
22:56:14 <Samu> "try again!" this feels so unrealistic
22:56:40 <Samu> my bad, sorry, i can't come up with a better wording though
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23:02:28 <FLHerne> in the bribe case I think it makes sense to show everyone in the company
23:02:45 <FLHerne> oh, was scrolled up, been said
23:02:47 <TallTyler> Prospect too, because it's usually very expensive
23:03:32 <FLHerne> you can see the bank balance, if that matters you'll notice
23:03:38 <Samu> AIIndustryType.ProspectIndustry allows repeatability, it's only BuildIndustry that doesn't
23:04:07 <dP> FLHerne: it doesn't even say in which town xD
23:04:11 <FLHerne> for failed bribes it's worth showing because it has a persistent effect, you're prevented from using it for a while
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