IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-11-12
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00:26:28 <reldred> somebody merge that bad boy already
00:28:23 <reldred> god it looks soo goood, the retro gaming fanbois are gonna go nuts if this makes 13.0
00:28:46 <reldred> perfect little cinnamon bun roll of a feature
00:31:16 <reldred> 2.5x zoom on a high enough DPI panel is kinda nice, chonky bezels but just that little bit more text padding
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09:10:52 <andythenorth> what is ferries?
09:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> given that this is the internet, maybe it's people dressing up and roleplaying as boats :p
09:15:25 <andythenorth> I stumbled into a bit of that internet recently
09:15:33 <andythenorth> unexpected overlap of search terms
09:27:37 <andythenorth> is ferries planes?
09:54:47 <andythenorth> do mail boats also refit pax?
09:54:54 <andythenorth> or are they like buses?
09:55:00 <andythenorth> no mail for buses
10:03:38 <andythenorth> we need power to weight normalised by maximum speed 😛
11:18:49 <Samu> were the AI/GS changes even tested in-game
11:18:55 <Samu> im already finding issues
11:24:23 <LordAro> you know where to file issues, i think?
11:25:41 <Samu> yes, but I'm in such disagreement with the changes...
11:26:22 <LordAro> disagreement alone isn't enough i'm afraid
11:26:45 <LordAro> but if you can justify why whatever it is is a bad change, then that's a valid issue
11:31:25 <Samu> the change to allowing unchangeable settings ingame when ai_dev_tools in on is a bad idea. My AI for example, expects some of the settings to be always unchangeable, or it will misbehave. An example is the way it assigns orders. It expects these ways to be set in stone from the start. If they're now going to be changeable in-game, I'm pretty certain I will have issues with order assignments. The code isn't ready to handle that.
11:32:05 <andythenorth> how do you debug AI/GS if you can't change settings?
11:32:09 <andythenorth> let's step back a bit 🙂
11:32:17 <andythenorth> ask, what is the intent?
11:32:24 <FLHerne> Samu: that's kind of the point of it being behind dev_tools though
11:32:34 <FLHerne> if you're the developer, you know which settings to not change
11:32:53 <FLHerne> it's not for general users
11:32:59 <Samu> problem may be the possibility of new found bugs being reported because of that
11:33:29 <LordAro> you're perfectly within your rights to say "not a bug, this should not be changed in game unless you know what you're doing"
11:33:38 <Samu> AIs have always had been programmed with that in-game setting to be unchangeable
11:33:53 <andythenorth> dev tools always introduce the possibility of bugs
11:33:54 <LordAro> just as we tell people the same if they've changed newgrfs in-game because they've enabled newgrf_dev
11:34:06 <LordAro> or whatever the setting is
11:34:11 <andythenorth> running with python pdb or c++ with gdb introduces the possibility of bugs
11:34:44 <andythenorth> changing preferences files under an app introduces the possibility of bugs
11:34:57 <andythenorth> occasionally I crashed OpenTTD by changing a grf under it on the filesystem
11:35:04 <LordAro> andy introduces the possibility of bugs
11:35:34 * LordAro introduces the possibility of bugs
11:35:47 <LordAro> as i frequently do at work
11:35:53 <LordAro> broke the nightly build the other day
11:36:09 <reldred> we need to break the nightly build more often
11:36:21 <reldred> users these days don't know fear like they used to
11:36:53 <LordAro> usually it just stops running (because github workflows like to timeout) and no one notices for a week until james raises an issue
11:38:38 <andythenorth> will I write a GS?
11:38:41 <andythenorth> are we all ready for that yet?
11:39:10 <reldred> I want fine grained control of industry spawn
11:39:11 <andythenorth> might wait until TrueBrain is back active again
11:39:33 <LordAro> will that push people to work out how to practically run multiple GS at the same time?
11:40:01 <Samu> by the way, the dropdown settings are still unable to be changed with the new rules
11:40:20 <Samu> the dropdown is enabled, but changing it has no effect
11:40:47 <LordAro> that one sounds like a bug
11:41:13 <Samu> yeah... if that's the direction the changes are going...
11:41:21 <Samu> I'm still against though
11:41:53 <LordAro> look at it this way, newgrfs cannot be changed in game, correct?
11:42:05 <andythenorth> don't need to run multiple GS
11:42:05 <Samu> now i gotta be extra careful when checking other ppls ais
11:42:19 <LordAro> in the same way, uneditable ai settings cannot be changed in game
11:42:21 <andythenorth> we already allow imports
11:42:39 <andythenorth> a python app doesn't run multiple python apps
11:42:50 <andythenorth> all mutating shared state
11:43:07 <LordAro> Samu: something that would be useful is some indication that a setting is "uneditable"
11:43:17 <LordAro> maybe you could PR that
11:43:33 <LordAro> idk, just an additional '*' on the setting or something
11:47:39 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: If only Open Source would pay the bills 😢
11:48:10 <andythenorth> we should charge to lift limits
11:48:22 <andythenorth> e.g. more grfs for €
11:49:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: people can run multiple (python) apps though
11:49:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: $8 for a verified checkmark
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11:49:46 <FLHerne> they're not expected to find a single application that does everything they want at the same time
11:52:17 <Samu> the reset button is not resetting settings that are unchangeable in-game which now are changeable, as I suspected
11:53:18 <andythenorth> on servers and stuff?
11:53:26 <andythenorth> maybe you get more terraforming rights for $$
11:53:43 <andythenorth> rate limited for raise/lower land, premium account is unlimited
11:53:54 <andythenorth> or a track budget
11:55:29 <Samu> I have yet to check what happens in the scenario editor later when i get more time
11:57:00 <glx[d]> I can't remember how eints handles pending changes on release
11:57:02 <Samu> I remember there were some strict handling of save/load configuration slots, something that is intended to never be altered
11:57:05 <petern> He's been asleep all this time
11:57:28 <andythenorth> hmm wonder if we could 'sell' enough OpenTTD one time special editions to fund a year of dev
11:57:32 <andythenorth> how many players are there?
11:57:44 <andythenorth> making it a permanent job is probably boring anyway
11:57:55 <andythenorth> needs to be more like a project
11:58:02 <Samu> if now the slots can be changed to other scripts in the editor, then the save data becomes invalid
11:58:45 <glx[d]> Already the case if AI is deleted from disk before load
11:58:45 <Samu> saving code is not prepared, i think it just re-saves the data
11:59:40 <andythenorth> how about ransoming a cool feature? 😛
11:59:50 <andythenorth> no release if we don't get € 75k
11:59:51 <glx[d]> Data is discarded after load
12:01:15 <Samu> need to check what happens when loading then saving in the editor, how it handles the ai saved data between edits
12:03:15 <petern> Spot someone who doesn't understand what developer tools means
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12:03:41 <JustANortherner> andythenorth: £3.99 Morrisons Salad Bar is where its at
12:04:02 <petern> Pizza hut all you can eat
12:04:14 <JustANortherner> Nah, because then you're at Pizza Hut...
12:04:56 <andythenorth> but playing Blitz in platoon
12:05:07 <LordAro> i should get my bike out
12:05:14 <LordAro> actually feel well enough to actually try
12:05:22 <andythenorth> did some gardening
12:05:43 <petern> I should put my bike away
12:06:04 <JustANortherner> I should buy a bike...
12:06:09 <petern> The sun came out only at coffee stop
12:06:16 <JustANortherner> Might be more reliable than, and just as quick as, the bus...
12:08:48 <petern> For utility purposes, yes
12:09:18 <petern> Can't do 20mph average on a club ride with one, though
12:09:27 <reldred> I need to get an ebike at some point
12:10:43 <andythenorth> I'm a big advocate
12:10:49 <andythenorth> I think they're game changing
12:10:59 <andythenorth> (unless it's really bad weather)
12:12:57 <LordAro> petern: could probably do 20mph if it's flat enough
12:14:15 <reldred> hmm, 11.1km commute to work
12:14:22 <petern> You could, being a youngster
12:14:42 <reldred> Slight downhill on the ride in
12:14:53 <reldred> ebike cheating on the ride home
12:15:09 <reldred> could work could work
12:15:36 <petern> I used to cycle 25km in, and have to clean up without a shower
12:16:14 <JustANortherner> I definitely wouldn't cycle all the way...
12:16:23 <JustANortherner> Mostly as my commute is over 200km each way...
12:16:34 <JustANortherner> But to the station seems a plan...
12:17:06 <petern> That's excessive whatever method
12:17:14 <andythenorth> petern: how far is the ride? 😛
12:17:55 <JustANortherner> petern: Cheaper to live in the North and work in the South, especially as I,
12:17:55 <JustANortherner> 1) only need to go to the office once a week.
12:17:55 <JustANortherner> 2) get free train travel all the way to/from the office
12:18:04 <petern> I don't even travel to parental unit as 150km is too far
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12:18:10 <JustANortherner> Only thing it costs me is about 6 coffees...
12:19:28 <JustANortherner> Yes, three each way
12:21:04 <petern> That's cheap for 200km
12:21:36 <JustANortherner> One in Manchester when I get to the station, assuming bus to Manchester is on-time and the coffee shop ain't too busy.
12:21:36 <JustANortherner> One in Birmingham when I change trains and stations.
12:21:36 <JustANortherner> One when I get to my last station to walk to the office with.
12:21:36 <JustANortherner> Reverse and repeat.
12:22:09 <JustANortherner> My connection time in Manchester works out to around 15 minutes to walk to the station, get a coffee and get on the train
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12:25:07 <reldred> Probably going to have to get some cheap chinese thing
12:25:23 <andythenorth> reldred: it's worth getting a good one, but prices doubled since I bought mine
12:25:32 <andythenorth> I paid £2500 and it's now £5k new
12:27:48 <reldred> Yeah I really want something I can ride trails with as well, so I might get a cheaper bike that's easier to get into as the initial outright cost, and then use the savings from the nearly $100/wk in diesel I'm paying to slowly save up for a marin or a specialized or something
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12:29:33 <reldred> I need to get fitter before I worry about getting back into trails
12:30:04 <petern> Besides you wouldn't want to use a bike suitable for trails on a commute
12:30:27 <andythenorth> I took mine around some stupid things
12:30:34 <andythenorth> there's a self-built BMX pump track
12:30:39 <andythenorth> I went round that a few times
12:30:47 <andythenorth> and the local MTB flat trail route
12:31:09 <reldred> petern: I may, there's good dirt riding spots in town 👀
12:31:12 <andythenorth> it's quite sketchy on a 25KG bike with tiny wheels
12:32:55 <reldred> I grew up on BMX bikes, the concept of the ergonomic advantages of a proper road bike are absolutely foreign to me.
12:33:22 <reldred> I cannot miss what I have never experienced
12:35:07 <andythenorth> it may be chipped to remove the speed limit, couldn't comment
12:39:42 <andythenorth> I _might_ have clipped 50 mph on it in a specific situation
12:39:53 <petern> I've done that without a motor
12:40:06 <andythenorth> it's quite....a thing
12:40:11 <petern> Not sure I'd want to on something with tiny wheels
12:41:55 <andythenorth> it was not sustained
12:42:09 <andythenorth> it can sustain 40 mph downhill
12:42:18 <andythenorth> motor tops out about 34mph, won't push after that
12:42:21 <andythenorth> the rest is gravity
12:42:44 <LordAro> you mean won't push after 15mph, surely? :p
12:47:57 <andythenorth> it is indeed for public safety
12:48:02 <andythenorth> that ebikes are limited
12:48:12 <andythenorth> and also all non-electrified cyclists
12:52:47 <reldred> I don't go super nuts on decorating but I do enjoy what is possible now with road stop graphics and some nrt and objects magic
12:53:58 <petern> We're not speed limited
12:56:29 <andythenorth> imagine if you cycled beyond your limit
12:57:06 <petern> My legs/lungs/heart would give in
13:01:18 <LordAro> i came close to throwing up once
13:01:28 <LordAro> had to sit down for a few minutes
13:01:40 <petern> More likely on MTB for me.
13:01:42 <reldred> I've had that a few times back when I did martial arts
13:08:19 <LordAro> 193 is as high as i've ever seen
13:08:29 <LordAro> so i don't know what on earth you're doing :p
13:33:42 <andythenorth> are ferries planes?
13:43:18 <reldred> I'm pleased with how this turned out
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13:50:09 <reldred> no that's 1x in jgrpp, truetype fonts
13:50:38 <petern> Well my interface is 2.5x.
13:51:00 <reldred> 2.5x I think would look quite nice when playing on my macbook
13:51:10 <reldred> I very much look forward to its trunk inclusion
13:51:17 <petern> That's an interesting road type and drive through stop graphics.
13:51:32 <petern> Old habits die hard eh
13:51:51 <reldred> well we're not supposed to call it master now eh
13:53:22 <TallTyler> JGRennisonviaGitHub: Can I just revert this company face feature? It's been so much more trouble than it's worth 🥲
13:55:03 <andythenorth> but the players say they'll stop hating Sam if it has ferries
13:55:09 <andythenorth> #1 most hated grf currently
13:56:13 <andythenorth> but do ferries refit mail?
13:56:58 <petern> reldred: Why not? It's the branch name.
13:57:27 <petern> It's not "hating" it's... "I want to use ferries but Sam has none"
13:57:38 <reldred> yes but that's regarded as not politically correct
14:03:31 <reldred> for newchips more buildings wot can span in multiple directions plz
14:03:43 <reldred> that station needs work I know
14:03:57 <reldred> a road station will occupy that big corner
14:05:22 * reldred should make firs/chips style road stops for jgrpp
14:05:58 <TallTyler> CHIPS buildings should use the fancy town index colour trick that FIRS objects have
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14:10:58 <andythenorth> I can't be arsed to do stations
14:11:05 <andythenorth> the cargo waiting thing is a bit bollocks
14:11:09 <andythenorth> and I can't figure out what would be better
14:11:46 <reldred> I think current cargo waiting is sufficient, though some multi-tile piles would be nice
14:12:08 <reldred> I often use those to add flavor to other station/dock/RV complexes
14:12:27 <reldred> moar buildings would be good
14:14:58 <andythenorth> it's dull having to build separate stations, 1 for each cargo
14:15:29 <andythenorth> and it looks stupid when a whole station flickers between little/lots on every tile simultaneously
14:16:55 <TallTyler> Honestly my preference would be to remove the automatic cargo sprites and do it manually, maybe with one tile per type of cargo — crates, pile, metal, etc
14:17:22 <TallTyler> If there's more than one cargo that can be stored in a pile, pick the one with the highest station rating or something
14:17:48 <reldred> then you need fifty million recolours of the dirt piles as individual station entries
14:17:56 <reldred> I don't know if that's better
14:19:33 <andythenorth> you need 64 tiles for cargo
14:19:54 <reldred> I mean I think most things can be relatively generic,
14:20:16 <reldred> it's just the mineral piles would be a suck
14:20:52 <andythenorth> just choose the tile
14:21:28 <TallTyler> Are the piles in CHIPS separate sprites or recolours?
14:21:41 <andythenorth> new CHIPS can be magical
14:21:49 <TallTyler> Generated from the recolour tables in Polar Fox when compiling?
14:23:10 <andythenorth> oh I'm in a platoon in Blitz, so that 😛
14:24:27 <reldred> hmmm, it is the morning
14:26:09 <reldred> I have to finish writing a DC network redesign proposal at some point today, only due to be presented to the board on tuesday morning which means it needs to be distributed monday
14:26:38 <TallTyler> Direct Current? Washington, DC Metro?
14:26:59 <reldred> 'om5 multimode fiber was selected because the author finds lime green quite aesthetically pleasing'
14:31:18 <petern> Hmm, I could revisit SVG
14:31:48 <petern> Or maybe revisit decent map-gen.
14:35:33 <TallTyler> Pay no mind to the initial PR title that makes absolutely no sense, I just changed it 🙃
14:48:02 <petern> I didn't find the book I was looking for, but I did find a 6502 Assembly guide...
14:58:42 <pickpacket> I have a problem with my tea tree farms. They close down now and then, which is fine, it's just that no new ones are ever spawned anywhere on the map
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17:41:17 <LordAro> petern: would you consider #10114 to be done?
17:42:04 <LordAro> and all comments addressed as far as you can be bothered?
17:55:04 <petern> It's done as in "there's always more UI bits to improve"
17:56:23 <petern> I read that as Shitpit 😦
18:08:43 <petern> Seems a bit big for a Squash & merge
18:11:19 <petern> `script_basestation.cpp:38` -- that doesn't directly do anything else with `counter` in that function, does it somehow do magic to keep `name` alive?
18:13:24 <petern> (Yeah, looking at what `CCountedPtr` does)
18:14:35 <petern> Hmm, Text is a ScriptObject, which is a SimpleCountedObject.
18:32:31 <glx[d]> the only way to really test a huge patch
18:33:20 <petern> I should perhaps go look for my scrollbar patch
18:33:35 <andythenorth> meh I can't pull and rebase upstream
18:33:43 <andythenorth> I have patched ../src/3rdparty/fmt/format.h
18:34:55 <andythenorth> ok it's building
18:35:14 <andythenorth> hope it doesn't ruin my FPS in Blitz
18:41:57 <glx[d]> many languages warnings (but should be fixed soon)
18:42:03 <andythenorth> ok builds again 😛
18:44:57 <petern> Yeah, I followed the rule on languages 😉
18:47:08 <andythenorth> hmm wonder if I have a debug build
18:47:57 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:50:22 <petern> VS Code is weird, sometimes it uses ; for comments in ini-files, sometimes it's #
18:50:27 <LordAro> clearly should be a setting to increase bevel width independently
18:50:29 <petern> Both valid but I've no idea why it switches...
18:50:53 <petern> Mouse Pointer Size (apparently that is needed)
18:51:52 <LordAro> thr sprite is pretty small on a 4k display
18:52:09 <petern> The usual complaint is that it looks to big on anything other than 1x
18:52:17 <petern> Which I disagree with, but I'm old.
18:53:59 <petern> Shall we take bets on how long before it gets Zorged?
18:54:30 <andythenorth> I HAVE SOME THOUGHTS
18:56:06 <petern> I thought about disabling "Scale bevels" when the size is less than 2x, but... that could just be confusing.
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19:03:35 <andythenorth> oops this is weird 😄
19:04:05 <andythenorth> diagonal rivers when?
19:04:15 <andythenorth> I did drew them, but I fell out with someone and deleted the repo
19:04:34 <andythenorth> they probably need state machines or something?
19:04:37 <andythenorth> or a map rewrite?
19:04:54 <andythenorth> is that a state machine?
19:05:21 <andythenorth> you code it, I'll draw them
19:05:27 <andythenorth> I drew the current riverbanks, so eh
19:05:28 <petern> Half-tiles on slopes, dunno how I did that.
19:05:59 <andythenorth> this is not aesthetic
19:06:10 <petern> I think I got as far as using the sub-sprite system to only draw half a tile of water...
19:06:15 <petern> Which is a bit of a weird way to do it.
19:06:43 <petern> Was there a patch to flow rivers?
19:07:08 <michi_cc[d]> Yes, there was one at one time.
19:07:19 <petern> If the map stored a flow direction then you could animate the water a bit...
19:11:19 <andythenorth> traversable rapids
19:11:29 <andythenorth> boats can actually go uphill
19:16:25 <LordAro> OTTD had non flowing rivers before minecraft made them cool
19:29:27 <pickpacket> I have the kiddos this weekend. Will have to sit down tomorrow night and try to figure out why no new tea tree farms spawn in game
19:29:51 <andythenorth> if it's in gameplay, there might be enough industries on the map already
19:30:38 <pickpacket> The problem is that they close down as one would expect, but no new ones emerge. :(
19:31:38 <pickpacket> factories, oil rigs, banks, teahouses. Those all spawn in new occurrences of. Statistically at least a few new tea farms would spawn in, right?
19:32:42 <pickpacket> They have the same in-game probability to appear as common farms. My experience is that more or less the entire map is covered in farm fields after some years in a game
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19:39:39 <FLHerne> oil rigs don't spawn in after 1970
19:40:24 <FLHerne> I think there was some industry in another climate that had restrictions too
19:40:38 <FLHerne> what industry are tea farms based off atm?
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19:41:47 <petern> Minimap scaling eh? I'm sure there's an ancient patch for that that does more than just add zoom levels
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19:45:04 <andythenorth> chunky bevels are so much friendlier
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19:47:53 <petern> Although they are differently-chunky. Chunky even at 1x.
19:49:04 <andythenorth> train window muchos chunk
19:49:53 <petern> I originally didn't chunkify the inner-matrix bevels, but that was kinda odd.
19:50:09 <andythenorth> I really like this, only weird thing is scrollbar tracks
19:50:17 <andythenorth> they don't look like they're in the layer behind
19:50:40 <andythenorth> also the resize handle has been like this forever?
19:50:47 <andythenorth> doesn't align to scrollbar track
19:51:41 <petern> Oh yes, because the size is not right 😄
19:51:48 <petern> I dropped a commit that had a change for that in it.
19:52:12 <pickpacket> FLHerne: oil rigs don’t spawn before 1960, but is there a not-after limit too?
19:52:27 <FLHerne> pickpacket: oh sorry, I mean land oil wells
19:52:31 <petern> Problem with the scrollbar tracks is the checker/chequer pattern...
19:52:48 <FLHerne> they stop spawning shortly after the oil rigs start, and existing ones only decrease production
19:53:12 <petern> Also maybe they should use the same shading level as matrix
19:53:13 <pickpacket> FLHerne: I *think* I based them on farms, but now that you ask I’m uncertain. It’s either that or factory though
20:00:15 <pickpacket> Probably wanted to be sure I didn’t get massive fields everywhere around it
20:01:09 <FLHerne> I see prob_in_game is much lower than prob_map_gen, is that deliberate?
20:01:18 <FLHerne> I can't find docs of exactly how those are used
20:12:53 <petern> andythenorth: literally in `widget.cpp:103` change `WD_RESIZEBOX_WIDTH = 12` to 11...
20:13:19 <petern> (It doesn't even need to recompile the whole game...)
20:16:46 <petern> That could be triggering...
20:16:59 <petern> (But it's because my UI scale was 2.25x, not 2x)
20:24:52 <petern> No sub-pixels where hurt in the making of...
20:51:12 <andythenorth> chunky bevels for your chunky trains
20:59:21 <Arastais> Are there plans to finish #7786? because with #10058 the highscore table doesn't have to be removed and the buttons could be lined up better
21:03:33 <supermop_Home> should I try my hand at drawing a font?
21:04:48 <petern> Truetype works fine...
21:05:09 <supermop_Home> to make another one?
21:05:17 <supermop_Home> and / or see how it's done
21:08:25 <andythenorth> pixel font style
21:08:59 <andythenorth> original font looks fine to me in zoom
21:09:21 <andythenorth> /me still playing tanks
21:09:26 <andythenorth> wasn't going to play today 😛
21:10:26 <petern> MMPX scaler at 4x, such wierdness
21:10:40 <petern> 3x5 font is mostly the same heh
21:37:56 <Arastais> does #10114 fix #9933? I assume no but want to make sure
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22:12:52 <andythenorth> I don't know why, but these bevels make sprites look better
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22:19:15 <petern> Arastais: no, it's kinda the opposite to fixing that...
22:19:56 <petern> The Game Options window is quite ridiculous, tbh.
22:20:18 <petern> Someone had some nice mockups though... andythenorth ?
22:20:36 <andythenorth> not for game options
22:20:48 <andythenorth> there was an idea to eliminate that window a long time ago
22:21:32 <petern> I will dig out my scrollbars patch than...
22:25:41 <andythenorth> /me plays OpenTTD
22:29:19 <andythenorth> my savegame has lost all electric rails
22:30:43 <andythenorth> 'maybe I changed grfs'
22:31:06 <petern> Why do you do this to yourself?
22:33:35 <andythenorth> never seen this happen before 🙂
22:34:21 <andythenorth> oh a train with 0hp also
22:34:55 <andythenorth> wrong railtype 😛
22:37:18 <andythenorth> hmm this debug build is dog slow
22:37:21 <andythenorth> I need to change flags
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22:59:01 <FLHerne> or buy an even faster CPU :p
23:25:58 <petern> user-select: all is a weird css property.
continue to next day ⏵
