IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-10-20
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06:49:23 <LordAro> i've read the scrollback, no idea what you lot were up to last night
06:53:23 <andythenorth> we probably stayed up changing government ministers again
07:04:52 <LordAro> well it turns out two of them weren't changed
07:05:08 <LordAro> i suppose they're not ministers though
07:08:18 <pickpacket> we somehow managed to get a new government. Unsurprisingly the conservatives decided to cooperate with the fascists to get a majority in parliament
07:09:04 <pickpacket> at least everyone agrees on continuing supporting Ukraine so that's something
07:09:22 <pickpacket> And so far nobody has outlawed tea, so I'm good
07:15:40 <pickpacket> but! Hyperloops and shit! I mean, what would gameplay beyond 2050 look like?
07:16:05 <pickpacket> I'd like to play something like 1850 to 2100
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07:16:51 <JustANortherner> pickpacket: Like normal trains, just all electric.
07:17:47 <JustANortherner> Normal trains have lasted 200 years after all, and Musks Hyperloop is just a comedy
07:18:17 <pickpacket> JustANortherner: the game introduces maglev in 2020 :) Not very realistic either, as it turns out
07:18:39 <JustANortherner> Same with Monorail! Unless you're building a theme park and want it to go around the place
07:18:45 <pickpacket> completely agree with the comedy factor :D
07:19:26 <pickpacket> another thing that hasn't held up is that oil and coal continue to be very profitable far into the future
07:19:53 <JustANortherner> Looks at the UKs rail network seeing more Coal traffic as it gets profitable again π
07:21:50 <JustANortherner> All imported coal from China like, none of that British stuff
07:21:55 <pickpacket> Noooo... crapadoodledo
07:25:01 <pickpacket> oh well. Maybe the game isn't too far off
07:25:37 <JustANortherner> All you need next is Intercity trains being Commuter trains on sections!
07:26:00 <pickpacket> do we even have commuter trains?
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07:27:03 <EmperorJake> pickpacket: You've tried the Vactrain set right?
07:28:07 <JustANortherner> pickpacket: The UK? Yes, of course... they're just all in London π
07:29:16 <pickpacket> JustANortherner: I meant in the game :)
07:29:28 <pickpacket> EmperorJake: no. I wasn't aware of it
07:30:00 <pickpacket> Now I just want to play instead of working
07:30:09 <JustANortherner> Oh, yes, with certain GRFs
07:30:24 <JustANortherner> RUKTS has plenty of commuter trains included for example
07:30:41 <EmperorJake> Anything can be a commuter train if you're brave enough
07:31:22 <JustANortherner> You sound like the UKs rail network there Jake...
07:31:43 <JustANortherner> On a 4-car Intercity train as we speak and it's acting as a commuter train from Wolverhampton to Birmingham...
07:31:51 <JustANortherner> Well, more Stoke to Birmingham
07:33:06 <pickpacket> Would be cool with electrified roads, and sharing rails between companies (could pay licenses/fees automatically as an added running cost)
07:33:34 <JustANortherner> Sharing rails between companies is doable between things like JGRs Patch Pack, which has the Infrastructure Sharing patch included
07:33:45 <pickpacket> honestly though I haven't even played enough to fully try out and appreciate all existing features
07:34:02 <pickpacket> is Path Pack a NewGRF?
07:34:26 <JustANortherner> Patch Packs are different versions of the game made to enhance the players experience should they wish.
07:34:39 <JustANortherner> Not sure how this works through this channel, but I'll give it ago...
07:35:18 <EmperorJake> Infrastructure sharing is a lot of fun in multiplayer
07:36:54 <JustANortherner> I don't usually play MP these days, but playing in Single Player, I set up multiple companies via the Idle More AI and effectively have then compete against one another, but sharing tracks, etc. Not a bad way to do it.
07:38:43 <JustANortherner> Right, time to dash between stations in Birmingham, should probably do some pre-run stretches but trains aren't the best place for that...
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08:25:25 <petern> Oh yeah, my GUI scaling changes are going to be unpleasant for forks π¦
08:45:53 <pickpacket> petern: that's not really your problem though. It's kind of part of the deal when one forks a project
08:59:49 <dP> I dread 13.0 merge already π
09:00:26 <dP> Though gui scaling sounds to be worth it.
09:00:56 <dP> No idea what it actually does but anything gui must be good :)
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09:58:12 <petern> ffs, I'm the software developer, not an Excel teacher...
10:08:47 <dwfreed> if you don't know excel by now, you should not have a job where you use excel
10:09:00 <dwfreed> (general "you" not you specifically)
10:09:32 <dwfreed> like, a substantially usable version of excel has existed for 2 decades
10:42:29 <pickpacket> yes. It's called libreoffice
10:44:48 <FLHerne> eh, Calc vs Excel is the one point LibreOffice really fails for me
10:45:07 <FLHerne> although I've not used it in the last 4 years so maybe it's better
10:46:37 <FLHerne> "patch pack" in OpenTTDish pretty much means "fork"
10:47:47 <FLHerne> there used to be a lot of smallish out-of-tree feature patches on tt-forums
10:48:43 <FLHerne> so every few months someone would take a random OTTD version, apply a dozen or two of their favourite patches to it and resolve the most obvious conflicts, post it on the forum and then never update it
10:49:29 <FLHerne> and people would play it and complain about all the bugs
10:50:45 <FLHerne> later ChillCore and then JGR started making patchpacks that were actually maintained and tracked upstream development
11:11:45 <FLHerne> lots of people had their own personal (too broken to post on the forums) patched-to-the-hilt versions too
11:12:31 <FLHerne> it's a bit frustrating, most of my 2010-2015 savegames are useless because they're all from random hacked-up versions I no longer have the source for
11:15:12 <FLHerne> tbf most of them also use random hacked-up grfs I no longer have
11:45:23 <pickpacket> are any NewGRFs ever merged into the actual game?
11:46:42 <andythenorth> rivers and canals kind of ish
11:51:45 <petern> Tram road graphics were added but no trams.
11:52:05 <petern> So things that support gameplay changes, but not actual gameplay changes, I guess.
11:55:55 <FLHerne> various sprites are technically added by the openttd.grf and orig_extra.grf in media/baseset
11:56:23 <FLHerne> at a glance there doesn't seem to be any actual behaviour implemented
12:01:54 <pickpacket> trams is an interesting example. When I started playing I thought it was kind of strange that I needed a NewGRF to have trams, since it has its own toolbar
12:02:49 <EmperorJake> That toolbar was added fairly recently in the NRT update, before that tram tracks were just under the road dropdown
12:03:47 <pickpacket> are there plans to add trams to the base game too?
12:26:11 <LordAro> the tram button in the toolbar isn't a great look though
12:26:25 <LordAro> it shouldn't be too difficult to hide it completely if there aren't any trams..
12:31:25 <andythenorth> if JGRPP quietly added trams, or another fork
12:31:30 <andythenorth> then we could PR that without the drama
12:41:07 <FLHerne> I used to want baseset trams, but now I don't really see the point
12:41:16 <FLHerne> if anything, roadtypes makes it less relevant
12:43:43 <FLHerne> there are now *lots* of potential road vehicle types that the base game doesn't include, so trams don't feel like a weird special-case in being supported but not available
12:43:57 <FLHerne> agree that the toolbar button should be hidden ideally
12:51:42 <petern> LordAro, yeah, we probably don't need the disabled button state any more, I imagine it was originally there to distinguish between "This version supports trams but you don't have any" and "No tram support for you"
12:52:10 <petern> Possibly same with goals/story?
13:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> do we have a dynamically growing toolbar, or do we add spacing to keep it same width?
13:05:20 <LordAro> you're 30 minutes late
13:12:39 <Bouke> EmperorJake: What's the NRT update you're referring to?
13:16:25 <petern> Oh right, it's my fault π¦
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13:29:32 <pickpacket> Does the NRT update mean that new road types can be added through NewGRFs?
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13:32:42 <EmperorJake> That's how we get cool stuff like trolleybuses and suspended monorails, as well as roads that match industry/station tiles for eyecandy
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13:50:18 <FLHerne> well, there were suspended monorails before that just remapped the tramway
14:17:24 <EmperorJake> Trolleybuses too yes
14:17:57 <EmperorJake> would be nice if someone updated that old trolleybus set to work with NRT
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14:25:50 <supermop_toil> interesting set of headline push notifications while on the subway this moring
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14:27:46 <supermop_toil> FLHerne: there is a famous Deborah Kaas sculpture that was on the brooklyn waterfront for years that says YO facing manhattan and OY facing brooklyn
14:28:57 <supermop_toil> petern: notification at court street was "meeting with backbenchers", one stop later at whitehall after going under the river it was "resigns"
14:45:22 <supermop_toil> ok also this just happened at my subway stop:
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15:17:12 <petern> Hardcode conservatives be like "Bring back Boris!!1111!!"
15:50:42 <petern> UK Government isn't politics at the moment, it's pure satire.
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15:53:21 <andythenorth> Boris is 3rd most likely
15:54:23 <andythenorth> It has been fun putting clips from In The Thick Of It in one window and the news in another
15:54:53 <andythenorth> βResignation of Nicola Murrayβ is so like real life today
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15:58:10 <LordAro> actually no, leave yes minister for the times when politics is going "well"
15:58:17 <LordAro> Hacker would be a damn sight better than the current lot
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16:09:32 <petern> Club ride tonight, wonder how long this will last
16:25:08 <supermop_toil> doesn't seem to be any good way out in the short term
17:21:00 <TrueBrain> are we in time for the nightly? I dunno π
17:21:13 <TrueBrain> seems so. So quick glx[d], merge it! π
17:22:24 <glx[d]> and I check the logs to be sure everything was correct
17:23:18 <glx[d]> (mostly create key for vcpkg cache, then use the key in a later step)
17:23:34 <TrueBrain> I like that you can see the cache status on the web now
17:23:40 <TrueBrain> the Actions GUI overhaul is nice
17:23:54 <andythenorth> we should add politics to the game
17:23:58 <TrueBrain> means I can do away with all the credentials in all the repos
17:24:11 <petern> andythenorth: crash the economy
17:24:19 <glx[d]> yesterday it seems eints tried to commit at the exact same time a PR was merged
17:24:26 <andythenorth> 'press this button to appoint a new prime minister'
17:24:31 <andythenorth> we could let the towns do it
17:24:35 <TrueBrain> glx[d]: that sometimes happens, yes. And then eints fails π
17:24:42 <andythenorth> so the PM is chosen just by a few people in the richest town
17:24:51 <andythenorth> GS is so under-exploited for lolz
17:24:55 <andythenorth> we need to make it easier
17:24:58 <petern> Do recessions work still?
17:25:01 <TrueBrain> the reason we use to have a dont-commit window π
17:26:07 <glx[d]> but it's hard now with the random drift of scheduled actions
17:26:26 <TrueBrain> Yeah.. happens randomly now .. Next day it corrects itself
17:27:10 <glx[d]> hmm eints workflow need some care too
17:27:37 <TrueBrain> All workflows do, sadly π
17:28:15 <glx[d]> some were already updated to latest official github actions
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17:31:57 <glx[d]> nice the only set-output I can find in openttd/actions is in annotation-check/dist
17:35:51 <glx[d]> I think it requires a dependencies update, but I don't want to touch nodejs stuff (even with a stick)
17:42:11 <petern> I need a faster PC π¦
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17:42:37 <camthesaxman> andythenorth: The game is already a neoliberal businessman's dream. A complete monopoly on the transportation industry, no taxes, no permits or regulations to follow outside of towns, power generated 100% from coal without any of them tree huggers stopping you.
17:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody ever says "my pc is totally adequate for everything"
17:55:24 <andythenorth> can we list what we don't like?
17:59:50 <glx[d]> I had the repo locally so
18:06:32 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: in life or with our computers?
18:09:03 <camthesaxman> OpenTTD runs on potato PCs.
18:09:39 <frosch> are you selling high-end pcs?
18:10:19 <camthesaxman> No, that's a good thing.
18:11:02 <supermop_toil> i dislike that i am too lazy to play ottd
18:14:40 <frosch> do you watch people play instead?
18:17:44 <pickpacket> camthesaxman: and oil! Not only coal
18:19:35 <andythenorth> supermop specifically my computer π
18:20:38 <pickpacket> Did someone say tea? I definitely heard someone say tea. Iβll put the kettle on
18:22:02 <andythenorth> my list would be so boring, maybe I should put it in a gist π
18:22:51 <JustANortherner> pickpacket: You should become American and microwave it for that true experience π
18:24:46 <camthesaxman> Why do people hate microwaving water for tea?
18:28:09 <frosch> for the same reason music enthusiasts prefer golden plugs and sockets
18:31:34 <andythenorth> we can discuss high-end hifi cables again π
18:32:51 <JustANortherner> camthesaxman: Because microwaved water is infinitely worse than properly brewed water
18:34:20 <supermop_toil> what about gamma rayed water?
18:36:28 <andythenorth> JustANortherner: do you also need the correct mains cable for the kettle?
18:36:38 <andythenorth> de-ionised gold-plated copper?
18:36:44 <andythenorth> with the correct twist direction
18:36:51 <JustANortherner> The cable is a cable, not that arsed about it
18:37:01 <andythenorth> high-end hifi lolz failed π¦
18:37:20 * andythenorth has been known to microwave a cold cup of tea in extremis
18:39:33 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: gamma ray hifi interconects
18:40:10 <andythenorth> correctly boiled
18:40:39 <supermop_toil> vibration isolating spike feet for the kettle
18:41:50 <supermop_toil> ugh now i have a google meet invitation, for a meeting this afternoon that follows one teams and one zoom meeting
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19:08:53 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:20:44 <andythenorth> we did what now? π
19:21:28 <andythenorth> oof I can't build, the macos build fails locally for me
19:21:33 <andythenorth> I will wait for nightly π
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19:27:16 <frosch> there is a preview build in the PR
19:27:27 <frosch> you can try that one, if you just want to look
19:29:33 <andythenorth> I should fix my build but eh
19:29:48 <andythenorth> I think Apple broke fmt or something
19:30:36 <andythenorth> `src/3rdparty/fmt/format.h:1963:38: error: expected unqualified-id
19:30:36 <andythenorth> return write_nonfinite(out, std::isinf(value), specs, fspecs);`
19:35:21 <frosch> hah, no osx stuff on godbolt either
19:36:06 <andythenorth> I did an xcode update, and OpenTTD stopped compiling π
19:36:22 <andythenorth> quite frequent this happens, but they're mandatory for security
19:47:31 <andythenorth> I should scroll up to where Aro told me how to fix this issue π
19:50:47 <Bouke> Are we defaulting to enabling hardware acceleration? If no: should we?
19:57:09 <JGR> Bouke: It is off by default on osx, default on on other platforms
19:57:57 <frosch> i think we discussing defaulting it to "off" for intel drivers
19:58:11 <TrueBrain> we still haven't? π
20:01:31 <Bouke> Should we also enable it on OSX?
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20:01:44 <TallTyler> So, one last PR that Iβve been sitting on for two years since it got derailed into a discussion about messages in general. Iβd love to either get this merged or have it get rejected so I can just close it and forget about it. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8966
20:03:04 <JGR> Bouke: Is there any measurable performance improvement on OSX with it on?
20:03:25 <andythenorth> LordAro: ok so where does fmt live normally?
20:03:38 <TrueBrain> Bouke: the reason we disabled it on OSX (there is special code to do that, which is a hint on its own :D), is because performance decreases with OpenGL from the testing we did back when we introduced this
20:03:41 <Bouke> I just assumed it would yield better performance, haven't checked.
20:03:42 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's brew or xcode providing fmt
20:04:09 <andythenorth> `/usr/bin/fmt` probably xcode
20:04:12 <Bouke> Performance as reported by in-game framerate?
20:04:22 <JGR> TallTyler: For what it's worth I've since found that some players are adamantly against the idea of having to add depot orders and complain about this being on by default in my branch
20:04:30 <andythenorth> Bouke: have you got a mac build currently?
20:04:35 <andythenorth> (working mac build)
20:05:02 <Bouke> andythenorth: I can try? Command line or within Xcode?
20:05:10 <LordAro> it's just a header file, in src/3rdparty/fmt
20:05:45 <andythenorth> how does that break with xcode then? Or is that 2+2=5?
20:05:56 <andythenorth> /me out of depth here
20:09:35 <Bouke> Bouke: My non-scientific testing yields better performance with hardware acceleration: 16.4 vs 18.8 FPS (512Β² zoomed out all the way).
20:09:59 <andythenorth> not sure what to replace π
20:10:16 <andythenorth> files from fmt github are
20:10:28 <TrueBrain> Bouke: try zooming in instead π You are now measuring OpenTTD's overhead for drawing stuff π
20:10:52 <TrueBrain> Video Output is the measurement affected π
20:11:22 <JGR> Hardware acceleration or not also changes which blitter is used
20:11:57 <TallTyler> JGR: Iβd ask if itβs too much work to simply turn the setting off but Iβve seen the answer to that π
20:13:44 <JGR> A newish player is not going to know where to look to find that
20:14:54 <JGR> The whole servicing thing and the implications thereof is not really obvious unless you're already familiar with the game
20:16:08 <Bouke> TrueBrain: Ok zoomed in all the way, with the window smaller than before (not full screen). Same window sizes between runs. Still better with HW acceleration: 2.03 vs 0.75ms vs for graphics rendering.
20:16:56 <JGR> Spamming depots everywhere is a typical strategy to make the problem go away
20:17:50 <nielsm> the 40bpp blitter used for hw accel just passes 8bpp sprites along as-is, right? and lets the fragment shader do the palette lookup stuff
20:19:56 <frosch> andythenorth: maybe replace the "std::isinf" with "!std::isnan"
20:20:07 <frosch> or just delete it, ottd has no inf or nan π
20:20:28 <TrueBrain> Bouke: I read 0.44 vs 0.38
20:21:05 <TrueBrain> anyway, benchmarking was done, OSX had more problem than benefit from it .. in some PR are details, but .. finding that is always tricky π
20:21:19 <TrueBrain> it would require some more research to flip that switch again π
20:22:33 <Bouke> andythenorth: I just built `Version string: 20221020-master-g664771d085` locally. App Store shows no updates for Xcode.
20:24:29 <andythenorth> not sure about the command line tools version
20:27:02 <andythenorth> `src/3rdparty/fmt/format.h:1963:39: error: expected unqualified-id
20:27:02 <andythenorth> return write_nonfinite(out, !std::isnan(value), specs, fspecs);`
20:27:16 <andythenorth> replacing format.h with the version from github doesn't work either
20:27:24 <andythenorth> Bouke: which macOS?
20:27:53 <Bouke> andythenorth: 12.6 (latest)
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20:28:18 <andythenorth> `fmt --version` isn't support
20:28:56 <JGR> `fmt` the binary and `fmt` the thing in OpenTTD's source code are not the same thing at all
20:29:18 <JGR> Other than they both vaguely do string formatting
20:30:15 <andythenorth> ok well that simplifies the job π
20:30:16 <JGR> You can just replace `std::isinf(value)` with `false` and call it a day
20:31:50 <andythenorth> and cmake again?
20:32:28 <andythenorth> ok, and same for this? `fmt/format.h:1910:13: error: expected unqualified-id
20:32:28 <andythenorth> if (!std::isfinite(value))`
20:33:28 <andythenorth> ok so I just keep going on these π `error: expected unqualified-id
20:33:28 <andythenorth> if (std::signbit(value)) { // value < 0 is false for NaN so use signbit.`
20:33:47 <TrueBrain> tnx for doing this glx[d]
20:33:54 <andythenorth> can I just delete all these conditionals in format.h?
20:34:08 <andythenorth> replacing them all to `false` seems to be the same as doing that
20:34:38 <andythenorth> do I even want to know what this is doing? )
20:35:12 <JGR> You're at risk of getting wrongly floats printed with the wrong sign, but that doesn't really matter for a test build
20:36:14 <glx[d]> and that should also refresh the timeout π
20:36:18 <Bouke> so andythenorth 's stdlib is somehow broken?
20:36:49 <glx[d]> for some reason andy's dev env is often broken
20:36:54 <JGR> Just out of date with respect to newer C++ standards
20:37:03 <JGR> This is not an uncommon problem on osx
20:37:10 <andythenorth> it's because I have to install XCode updates
20:37:13 <andythenorth> and Apple things
20:38:01 <JGR> Whenever I have to do anything with macs or xcode at work it's invariable a miserable experience
20:39:07 <andythenorth> macOS probably suffers from having two conflicting package managers
20:39:25 <andythenorth> XCode will install the Apple-provided libs etc in the Apple specified locations
20:39:30 <andythenorth> then for everything else there's brew
20:40:00 <andythenorth> nobody actually wants XCode, but it's hard to avoid
20:40:30 <JGR> It's the only way to get anything onto an iOS device
20:41:11 <JGR> But thankfully 99+% of the time we can just develop for and use Android
20:41:23 <JGR> Even godawful platforms like Samsung TVs are less hassle than iOS
20:42:47 <glx[d]> maybe you have some incorrect include path andythenorth
20:43:32 <andythenorth> the only things that changed recently are xcode update and I pulled openttd upstream
20:46:11 <glx[d]> tried to clear cmake cache ?
20:47:06 <Bouke> JGR: what's your primary choice of poison?
20:47:18 <glx[d]> when building fails, usually clearing cache and reconfiguring helps
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20:48:29 <JGR> Bouke: I use Linux primarily, Windows where required
20:50:24 <andythenorth> is cmake cache in .cache?
20:50:29 <andythenorth> I already rm-ed build once
20:51:46 <glx[d]> it's CMakeCache.txt in build dir
20:51:50 <andythenorth> as a long-time mac user though, I concur, building on macs is horrific
20:53:03 <Bouke> So far building OTTD just works every time. Which is something I was not expecting given my prior horrible experiences with C/C++.
20:54:06 <Bouke> (But I dread the "xcode needs to install command line tools" popup... another x minutes of productivity gone.)
20:55:07 <glx[d]> before github actions we used to cross-compile for MacOS (TrueBrain managed to do something that was impossible at that time)
20:55:25 <TrueBrain> hihi, that was fun π
20:55:38 <TrueBrain> "cross compiling OSX is not possible" -"hold my beer", effect π
20:56:11 <TrueBrain> that was back in 2007 π
20:57:13 <glx[d]> and it was for both PPC and intel IIRC
20:57:36 <Bouke> haha I know that feeling! then you disappear only to reappear a few days later exclaiming "it's done"
21:02:30 <camthesaxman> JGR: Samsung TVs don't even use Android. They use Tizen.
21:03:13 <camthesaxman> Apple is just difficult for no good reason.
21:04:18 <camthesaxman> Is it still possible to cross compile for macOS? I'd be interested in that.
21:04:57 <JGR> To be fair, Tizen is not so bad to develop for
21:05:16 <JGR> Honestly, you're probably better off forking a repo and manually triggering the github action as required
21:06:09 <JGR> It is not difficult to comment out the other platforms
21:06:29 <glx[d]> yeah with github actions (and azure pipelines before) it's easy to build natively
21:07:48 <petern> Too much chat while I was away, someone summarize ;D
21:08:11 <andythenorth> oh wait that's not news
21:11:27 <TrueBrain> still insane, her plans .. I cannot believe someone actually tried that
21:13:09 <andythenorth> well we'll probably get Boris back, so eh
21:13:31 <Bouke> Can we rename the nightly bundle name for macOS? "OpenTTD.app" is rather... generic and I keep renaming them to something like "OpenTTD 20221020-master-g664771d085.app"
21:13:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: which is weirdly enough an improvement, so meh? π
21:13:58 <andythenorth> this is a field where the scale goes from 0 to 0
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21:47:23 <LordAro> no, new systemd service
21:56:13 <TrueBrain> it makes you cry, river full. Much like systemd
21:57:18 <JGR> At the risk of putting my head above the parapet, I actually like systemd
21:57:43 <TrueBrain> we had a vote about this .. nobody talks positive about systemd .. were you not in that meeting?! π π
21:59:53 <dwfreed> as a service manager, systemd is pretty great
22:00:05 <dwfreed> the 10,000 other things it has subsumed, not so much
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22:17:18 <petern> Stupid Garmin has decided I've gone out for another ride 3 times, while it's been sat indoors on a table...
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23:30:47 <FLHerne> as usual though, he's fundamentally right
23:34:12 <petern> Our monospace font exists solely for that window, heh.
23:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> enforce all readmes to be markdown
continue to next day β΅