IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-10-18
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08:09:51 <pickpacket> I'm a little on the fence when it comes to the tea tree fields. Right now they're animated; you can see people walking around on them. I'm not sure I want it that way. It's hard to decide
08:10:33 <pickpacket> the animation is silly, but then again the whole thing is supposed to be silly. I've just spent so much time making "serious" sprites now
08:23:58 <andythenorth> generally the game world doesn't have people in it 😛
08:24:27 <andythenorth> but it's a game, there's a lot to learn from the Toyland type thing 😛
08:24:50 <andythenorth> Toyland is actually the best climate: discuss
08:25:31 <petern> The graphics are too eye-burning for me to ever play the gameplay on it.
08:27:17 <andythenorth> but I look at it quite often to remind that it's a game, not a detailed model railway simulator 😛
08:27:33 <andythenorth> actual game....brrr no
08:33:48 <petern> 219MiB of unfinished, woo!
08:34:50 <petern> Ah, V is still alive though 😄
08:38:24 <pickpacket> andythenorth: yeah, that's the thing :) *maybe* the silliness should be more subtle
08:38:41 <pickpacket> maybe it's silly enough with a tea mod at all
08:40:21 <pickpacket> I spent soooooo much time making those animations 😆
08:40:47 <pickpacket> not to mention making them work
08:42:29 <pickpacket> that said it still doesn't flow very well. It would benefit a lot from twice the number of frames... which is a lot of work
08:43:35 <pickpacket> not prohibitively so, but every sprite I have to draw means the mod takes longer
08:47:27 <andythenorth> pick your animations carefully L:P
08:52:01 <EmperorJake> It looks neat though, I'll have to port it back into XIS2
08:52:24 <EmperorJake> I've already done the electric arc furnace so it should be possible
08:53:18 <pickpacket> andythenorth: oh my... that looks pretty horrible to draw and sync 😅
08:56:30 <andythenorth> it was fun, but not sustainable 😛
08:56:44 <andythenorth> there are 100 or so industries, they can't all have anything like this detail 😛
09:12:36 <pickpacket> I still can’t decide whether to have animated fields or not
09:13:13 <pickpacket> I almost started drawing animations for the forklift last night…
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10:35:01 <petern> Have you ever, ever felt like this? When strange things happen...
10:36:18 <andythenorth> Are you going round the twist?
10:36:29 <andythenorth> hmm mac compile is failing locally
10:36:33 <andythenorth> dunno if that's me or not
10:36:49 <andythenorth> `src/3rdparty/fmt/format.h:1963:38: error: expected unqualified-id
10:36:49 <andythenorth> return write_nonfinite(out, std::isinf(value), specs, fspecs);`
10:37:34 <andythenorth> maybe I'm missing deps, there have been recent XCode updates and that's usually a shit-show
10:39:36 <LordAro> fmt itself appears to have changed its code
10:39:47 <LordAro> no usages of isinf anywhere
10:45:11 <petern> Does `src/3rdparty/` update automatically?
11:01:50 <andythenorth> do I need to install a specific older version of fmt?
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12:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so... regarding ufos... i have two trains of thought now... the first one is, i replicate the pseudorandom movement of the tileloop in the ufo tile selection routine, or during the regular tileloop i mark a tile with "if an ufo were to select a tile now, it would pick this tile", with a chance scaled in a way that the tile semi-frequently changes
12:44:21 <petern> Second option is a no IMHO, would require map storage for a very niche event.
12:45:02 <LordAro> pause the game while spawning a ufo, and just loop over the entire map
12:53:55 <JGR> Spawning a UFO is an extremely rare event, and iterating over the map is not that slow
12:54:13 <JGR> It's not necessary to do something overly clever
12:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: i wasn't really thinking of map storage, more like a global variable _next_ufo_tile or something
12:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but that would probably need storing and syncing...
12:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll see if i can refactor the tileloop movement so i can reuse that
12:59:59 <JGR> Making the tile loop even fractionally slower will have a hugely bigger impact than making UFO spawning more expensive
13:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you're right, i wasn't really thinking about speed, and focused on "how can i avoid duplicating code"
13:04:58 <FLHerne> remove all disasters, add a GS [-like] hook API to cause disasters, reimplement UFOs in that? :p
13:05:07 <FLHerne> or don't, and let someone else do it if they feel like it
13:05:41 <andythenorth> I didn't read the PR properly but
13:05:56 <andythenorth> is this 'choose a random tile of a specific class' again?
13:10:44 <JGR> Performance doesn't really matter in this case, so could linearly iterate the whole map twice
13:11:20 <JGR> Once to count the number of candidate tiles, pick a random one, then iterate again to get to it
13:12:07 <andythenorth> I'm going to put my pony in the race about finding industries of type X then
13:12:24 <andythenorth> I think frosch had some work around finding sea tiles by class also
13:13:00 <JGR> As all you need is the tile type, and linear map iteration is cache friendly and therefore cheap
13:21:40 <glx[d]> Tile type, and human owner
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14:29:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there's actually no reason the UFO needs to pick the tile in one giant loop, it could just iterate over the map and store the search state inside the disaster vehicle
14:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that means we can completely ignore the complexity of the search algorithm
15:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> as the time spent for the algorithm to run can be spread over many movement steps of the vehicle
15:07:28 <petern> It could move about (with a state machine to prefer same direction) until it reaches a suitable tile. No extra search... Though that might still end up with bias again, heh.
15:11:19 <JGR> I can see that, bit it still seems rather overkill for "pick a random rail tile"
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15:52:32 <petern> Signals on bridges/tunnels?
15:58:25 <andythenorth> goes it throw out 'vehicles never expire'?
15:58:34 <andythenorth> instead, just hide them
15:58:44 <andythenorth> then can use 'show hidden' to build old stuff
16:01:57 <TallTyler> That’s an intriguing idea
16:02:17 <TallTyler> Would autorenew/autoreplace work for automatically hidden vehicles?
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16:07:32 <andythenorth> 'this vehicle is no longer available'
16:07:53 <andythenorth> I quite often cascade engines now, for roleplaying reasons 😛
16:07:58 <andythenorth> faster engines -> long life on freight
16:08:19 <andythenorth> flherne gave me the idea 😛
16:08:36 <andythenorth> I would just leave them in the buy menu, but it fucks with the whole concept of tech tree replacement
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16:14:08 <andythenorth> oof fricking ffwd latch
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16:17:18 <TallTyler> If you’re cascading old trains in depots, why do you need them available to buy new?
16:21:52 <andythenorth> I replace A > B, the C > A
16:22:08 <andythenorth> often different parts of the map
16:22:34 <andythenorth> weird roleplaying crap
16:22:42 <andythenorth> I should make 'choo choo' noises too 😄
16:23:30 <TallTyler> Vote for the horn button PR 😛
16:28:08 <pickpacket> tireeed. I need to make a decision about those tea farm fields. Whether to have them animated or not
16:28:35 <pickpacket> right now I'm leaning towards no, but... I dunno
16:28:56 <TallTyler> This game needs silly animation
16:29:08 <TallTyler> I love the animated forklift tile in ISR
16:29:28 <TallTyler> andythenorth: can we have animated forklifts in CHIPS 3 plz?
16:29:41 <TallTyler> ISR = Industrial Stations Renewal
16:30:07 <TallTyler> Also moving dock cranes
16:30:22 <TallTyler> Maybe even the regular cranes too
16:30:33 <TallTyler> I want total visual overload 😛
16:31:46 <TallTyler> I feel the same way about passengers on station platforms: an enthusiastic “yes please”
16:32:37 <TallTyler> I should make a station set, because I clearly don’t have enough projects
16:34:39 <petern> andythenorth: Like old-school UKRS
16:38:48 <andythenorth> I make a sound running
16:38:52 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I have tried doing actual in-depot cascades but it's kind of a chore
16:39:13 <andythenorth> I did look at extending Horse model availability
16:39:17 <andythenorth> so there's a bigger overlap
16:39:33 <FLHerne> TallTyler: am I a bad person for not liking the horn PR? :-/
16:39:45 <FLHerne> OpenTTD already has a vast number of buttons
16:40:07 <andythenorth> so I could extend Horse model life, but sometimes it's....an electric loco from 1930 that still works for freight in 2000
16:40:14 <andythenorth> and I want to 'move' it
16:40:17 <TallTyler> I actually thought about putting it in the title bar where it would take up less room, but that wouldn’t make sense
16:40:18 <FLHerne> and a vast number of requested/patch-exists features that add yet more
16:40:56 <FLHerne> so it seems like a waste to use a fairly prominent button space for a very niche feature
16:41:32 <FLHerne> In what situation are you going to honk the horn, and how many times will you do that before it ceases to be funny?
16:41:34 <TallTyler> Maybe a hotkey would be possible, but what if you have multiple windows open?
16:41:49 <FLHerne> for most players it's probably single digits
16:42:25 <FLHerne> livestreamers maybe more because then repetitive things are funny
16:43:44 <TallTyler> When you have multiple windows open, is one “active” like an operating system window?
16:44:16 <FLHerne> Perhaps make trains honk when you click "pass signal at danger"
16:44:45 <FLHerne> and would satisfy the desire to make something honk
16:44:58 <TallTyler> Yet more dangerous when people start clicking that to make it honk 😛
16:45:12 <TallTyler> I prefer the hotkey idea
16:45:17 <FLHerne> that would be half the fun
16:45:32 <TallTyler> But if you have a train window and a ship window open…which one honks?
16:59:56 <andythenorth> the space for the horn was created for the train livery choose button no?
17:20:18 <andythenorth> oh I can't find the PR for train livery?
17:20:24 <andythenorth> what number was it ?
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17:55:26 <Arastais> Does anyone know how I could make any given object a station?
17:55:26 <Arastais> To be more specific: I want to create a station when I place an object. Right now I'm doing this by mimicking what `CmdBuildRailStation` and `CmdBuildRoadStation` do. The problem occurs when trying to draw the object/station:
17:55:26 <Arastais> 1) The Game thinks it's a rail station, when that's not what I want. I don't know how to specify otherwise and
17:55:26 <Arastais> 2) The StationSpecList* is nullptr. `AllocateSpecToStation` (i.e. what `CmdBuildRailStation` does for custom StationSpecs) doesn't change this. **Neither does `st->AddFacility`**
17:55:26 <Arastais> 3) The game thinks it's a custom station spec index, which may seem true, but even if I pass an index of an existing station it thinks so as well
17:55:28 <Arastais> Basically, the game doesn't know how to draw the station. I want it to be an airport, not a rail station. Also, I want to do this with multiple types of objects and be able to join them together, like how stations normally do. I've replicated `CmdBuildAirport` in some parts as well, and it doesn't make a difference.
18:06:17 <TallTyler> Why does it need to be an object?
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18:23:09 <Arastais> well I don't mean an object like a antenna or smth, best example would be like if train depots were part of the stations
18:23:55 <Arastais> basically any tile that has some other functionaliy than loading/unloading should count as a station tile in the sense of clicking it and catchment area
18:30:46 <nielsm> okay I have a thought, and hear me out: per-company base costs, controlled by GS (overriding any base costs set by NewGRF)
18:32:13 <andythenorth> 'research tree'? 😛
18:38:33 <nielsm> "what if some companies had advantages for running costs based on what they were doing"
18:38:50 <nielsm> (or disadvantages, or for construction/destruction)
18:39:58 <nielsm> and you could also do things like modify the cost of clearing farmland tiles over time, early on it might be wild west and later it becomes very precious
18:40:35 <nielsm> or allow doing it per-town in addition to per-company, and then you can have a town that really dislikes you changing the terrain around
18:41:09 <nielsm> or your home town in a citybuilder maybe lets you eminent domain anything for a song
18:44:01 <TallTyler> Do fields belong to industries?
18:44:20 <nielsm> and I'm considering the idea of instead of setting a fixed cost then set a fraction multiplier
18:44:32 <nielsm> fields do have an industry id yes
18:44:43 <frosch> is "cost" an interesting objective?
18:44:46 <nielsm> (originally they didn't, but at some point that got added)
18:45:00 <TallTyler> I would also appreciate GS control over cargo delivery revenue, although this might conflict with the cargo profit callback (which I’m not sure anybody but me uses)
18:45:06 <frosch> yes, fields are removed if the farm closes down
18:45:51 <frosch> gs are terrible at "callback" things
18:46:16 <frosch> i guess a gs could evaluate your company on a monthly basis, and pay you a subsidy depening on your usefulness to the public
18:46:35 <frosch> but gs directly interacting with cargo delivery does not work
18:46:41 <nielsm> yeah GS work best by either doing things on their own pace, or by setting parameter values the game can then use to determine outcomes
18:47:48 <frosch> nocargoal and siliconvalley essentialy track how much your company transport to where
18:48:25 <frosch> but there are no good gameplay "rewards", except town growth
18:48:55 <frosch> service all coal mines nicely, and gs spawns a new one?
18:49:33 <frosch> some people also play "colonization" games
18:49:36 <TallTyler> Darn, no Railroad Tycoon 3 supply and demand then 🙁
18:50:07 <frosch> where most of the map is empty at the beginning, and then towns and industries are founded and funded from some seed of civilization
18:50:10 <Wolf01> So, who put a bus on a level crossing to check if behaves like OpenTTD?
18:50:56 <frosch> TallTyler: another thing gs can do, is set things in advance, so a gs could set the price of coal for the next month
18:51:22 <frosch> (not available in the api right now, but possible in theory)
18:51:29 <TallTyler> Colonization sounds similar to Migrations GS
18:53:19 <TallTyler> It’s pretty neat. The intended setup is one town and multiple industries per town allowed, then it spawns towns near industries and controls their population based on production
18:55:24 <andythenorth> gs could set town-local prices
18:55:35 <nielsm> and the comment doesn't seem to quite match what the code actually does
18:55:42 <andythenorth> which would permit monthly supply and demand
18:55:54 <andythenorth> it worked amazingly in RT3
18:55:59 <nielsm> question is if the code was documented wrong, or the comment describes the actual intention and the code is wrong
18:56:00 <andythenorth> but I don't know if it fits TTD world
18:56:02 <frosch> simutrans also has some kind of scripting, though i looked at it in 2012 the last time :
18:57:19 <frosch> so, i did not explore further :p
18:57:56 <frosch> but in theory you could also assign payment rates for towns, areas, or similar, and change them over time depending on some demand/supply model
19:01:00 <TrueBrain> wow, more than 70 users logged in to TrueGRF .. that is a higher number than I expected
19:01:36 <TrueBrain> 93 projects are created with TrueGRF
19:02:31 <frosch> jfs-: i think the code was written at a time when most industries closed down regulary, i.e. before firs blocked all closure, and before "stable" economy was added. so the code seems to assume "there are more industries than expected -> no industries close down -> the player is servicing them all -> we better increase the limit to spawn new ones"
19:03:39 <frosch> TrueBrain: do you know why sentry numbers are dropping lately? :p
19:03:52 <frosch> i mean, i guess it's not a bad thing, just surprising 🙂
19:04:17 <TrueBrain> there are some unusual errors lately, but no, I do not know
19:05:15 <frosch> bananas-server used to trigger >500 reports per week, but in past 3 weeks it went down to 250, 50, 33
19:05:21 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:06:06 <TrueBrain> bananas-server errors are people who's connection reset
19:06:15 <TrueBrain> I am still to lazy to capture that error
19:06:21 <TrueBrain> so I guess less people have crappy connections 😛
19:06:45 <frosch> TrueBrain: but hardly any made it to bananas, i count 2
19:06:51 <TrueBrain> owh, they are all websockets errors .. so I guess less people use emscripten to play the game 😛
19:07:14 <TrueBrain> frosch: yeah, I should improve on that honestly 🙂
19:08:38 <TrueBrain> I think if I make publishing a two-button-click approach, it would see more 😛
19:09:04 <frosch> not sure whether that is a good idea though :p
19:09:56 <frosch> most users seem to be in a test/experiement state, if everyone publishes their verbatim copy of firs, or townnameset with 3 names to bananas, we seriously need a junk filter :p
19:10:17 <TrueBrain> finally a push for people to improve BaNaNaS you say? 😄
19:11:31 <frosch> i would bet on someone making a patch to filter the in-game list by grfid, and hide all Fxxxxxxx by default :p
19:29:28 <andythenorth> a filter for pre-releases you say? o_O
19:30:11 <TallTyler> DorpsGek: Will rebase tomorrow. 🙂
19:30:55 <petern> Rebasing 14 of 101, woo
19:32:54 <michi_cc[d]> Please make your objections known now.
19:38:41 <frosch> did anyone suggest to "remove ctrl" instead of "inverting"
19:38:57 <TallTyler> Yes, there was discussion about that
19:39:02 <frosch> the motivation says "noone needs drag by area", which i tend to agree with, but why keep it with ctrl pressed?
19:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i just thought "maybe ctrl as 'remove'" for all rail tools?
19:40:37 <frosch> i think dp has some other pr about that
19:40:55 <frosch> configurable modifies for "remove" and "alternate function" or something
19:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if "configure everything" is a desireable direction
19:41:55 <Arastais> Eddi|zuHause: same, when i was new to the game it confused me that ctrl didn't remove signals but instead did something completely different, so i considered it inconsistent
19:42:06 <andythenorth> signals currently weird
19:42:12 <Arastais> I will say that I do like LC-Zorg's improvements
19:43:26 <TallTyler> For anyone looking for it
19:43:48 <frosch> sorry, for derailing, the subject was signal-drag 🙂
19:45:39 <TallTyler> I’ll admit I skipped over LC-Zorg’s post the first time. I really like the highlighting option to show how far you’re affecting although I’m not sure how it would work with Ctrl removed.
19:46:29 <frosch> how often do you see the end of the track when you drag-build signals?
19:46:48 <andythenorth> I always skip LC's posts now
19:46:56 <andythenorth> the alternative is quitting the game 😛
19:49:51 <frosch> an argument to keep ctrl+drag signal is to keep it consistent with convert rail
19:50:13 <frosch> we do not have follow-track convert-rail, mostly because of the limitation on diagonal tracks
19:50:49 <frosch> though ctrl-convert-track probably does a horizontal/vertical selection
19:51:20 <frosch> yeah, signals are different in all cases
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19:58:44 <JGR> I'm not terribly keen to be honest, using ctrl at least makes it difficult to trigger accidentally
19:59:22 <JGR> Whereas a simple mouse slip is now potentially signals or more problematically unsignals an extended section of track
20:04:01 <frosch> accidential signalling cannot happen, can it? the track has to be empty, or it stops at the first existing signal
20:11:37 <TallTyler> Also #10088 should be closed as fixed (I already left a comment but don’t have the power to close)
20:12:57 <frosch> i think i fixed the latter
20:15:45 <TallTyler> I’m on mobile right now if that matters
20:26:55 <TallTyler> frosch: Didn’t help. I can try tonight on a real computer.
20:27:30 <frosch> yeah, maybe time will fix it
20:28:25 <frosch> at least now andy is not as lonely in that team anymore 🙂
20:29:18 <andythenorth> I was in a team? 😮
20:30:34 <TallTyler> You were the team captain!
20:31:07 <Bouke> TallTyler: I can't even figure out what "Railway construction -> Build signal -> Ctrl + click plain railroad track" is meant to do? Ctrl + click builds a semaphore instead of an electric signal.
20:31:49 <petern> Urgh, clicking "accept changes" too quickly in VS Code 😦
20:32:11 <frosch> yes, ctrl+build inverts the light/semaphore thingie
20:32:37 <frosch> andythenorth: did you forget you closed 1000+ tickets?
20:32:45 <andythenorth> that was such fun 🙂
20:32:50 <frosch> (i made up that number)
20:32:58 <andythenorth> I think it's about right
20:33:40 <andythenorth> pls get me a T-shirt
20:34:30 <frosch> i have a team mate, every now and then when they have nothing to report, they say they looked at their backlog
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20:35:04 <andythenorth> performative productivity 😛
20:35:32 <frosch> not sure whehter they actually did, but for sure they did not comment or close any of them
20:35:53 <andythenorth> 'I was thinking ' is a valid thing
20:36:25 <frosch> i think it's code for "the kindergarten was closed, the kids annoyed me all morning"
20:36:51 <andythenorth> hmm I should write a GS
20:37:00 <andythenorth> can we restart GS in game yet? 😛
20:37:59 <Bouke> TallTyler: About 20 of them. Although not all of them are as relevant to me (e.g. scenario editor / timetables). But a few of them... 🤯 like ctrl+click train to stop/start. Or ctrl+click to build same bridge. Oh man...
20:38:02 <frosch> do you need to enable to script-develloper setting maybe?
20:38:30 <Bouke> frosch: About 20 of them. Although not all of them are as relevant to me (e.g. scenario editor / timetables). But a few of them... 🤯 like ctrl+click train to stop/start. Or ctrl+click to build same bridge. Oh man...
20:38:48 <andythenorth> maybe I never found the button
20:40:21 <frosch> can we add a steam achievement, if you pass a multiple-choice test on what ctrl does in various places?
20:41:04 <andythenorth> does ctrl restart GS? 😛
20:41:50 <Bouke> Bouke: Ok so my mouse was hovering the message I actually wanted to reply to (the brown message here), but the popup is for the message below. Thus causing my message to refer to the wrong message. Sigh.
20:42:19 <andythenorth> this happens in discord
20:42:34 <Bouke> frosch: Or an achievement once you've (correctly) used all ctrl+click operations
20:43:48 <FLHerne> TallTyler: noticed you keep pinging DorpsGek - that's the GitHub notifications bot, it won't talk back to you :p
20:44:07 <FLHerne> or is the Discord bridge representing that in a confusing way?
20:44:18 <Bouke> Well when assigning orders to a train I'll admit there is some cursing sometimes when a train just entered the tile of the station I'm clicking on...
20:45:15 <JGR> Bouke: Eventually you start clicking on the corners of tiles out of habit
20:45:37 <michi_cc[d]> FLHerne: Discord will show a small preview of the line that was replied to, thus an easy context hint.
20:45:40 <frosch> FLHerne: the bridge does that, if you reply to something on discord
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20:46:21 <michi_cc> Come over to the light side :)
20:46:35 <michi_cc[d]> Or dark side, how you want to view it 🙂
20:47:02 <andythenorth> mine is dark mode 😛
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20:48:51 <frosch> i guess combining highlights with images does not work that well over the bridge 🙂
20:49:54 <andythenorth> also wrong channel 🙂
20:50:00 <andythenorth> talking about actual grfs in this channel is silly
20:50:28 <Bouke> michi_cc: maybe once IRCv3 is available?
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22:23:52 <petern> That rebase works, now I need to go back and rewrite the bits I missed 😒
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continue to next day ⏵
