IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-10-04
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05:25:04 <pickpacket> I wish I could see *why* a town hates me so much
05:25:48 <pickpacket> tokai|noir: don't be afraid of missing out :)
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07:49:52 <pickpacket> not this time apparently
07:54:23 <debdog> a station with a bad rating perhaps?
07:54:34 <pickpacket> huh. That could be it
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10:17:15 <petern> This window needs refactor
10:17:57 <glx[d]> It needs an horizontal scrollbar
10:20:12 <pickpacket> andythenorth: I just had lunch
10:21:18 <petern> Which idiot did 64 cargo types? Stupid decisions...
10:21:20 <LordAro> it needs fewer industries
10:21:34 <petern> Yeah, it is... intense.
10:21:47 <pickpacket> glx[d]: do you mean vertical scrollbar?
10:22:09 <LordAro> at least needs to work out how to divide by 2 properly
10:22:34 <LordAro> couple more pixels padding on the bottom too
10:22:43 <pickpacket> pfft. It's too many industries for my taste, but I can't see how that would be universally true. It's a pretty cool NewGRF
10:22:55 <petern> It works out the number of rows needed for cargo types and industry types, and then fills it by columns.
10:23:17 <petern> When you have multiple columns, horizontal scrollbar works better than vertical.
10:23:47 <petern> LordAro, pretty sure I have the pixel problems solved π
10:23:48 <pickpacket> I would prefer a simple list with a horizontal scroll bar though
10:35:05 <petern> in the original game there are no resizable windows, but the smallmap has a small and large mode. the buttons are down the side in the small mode.
10:48:06 <pickpacket> Some windows are resizable in 1.10.3 at least. Did you mean the original TTD?
10:49:26 <petern> What else would "original" mean?
11:04:45 <pickpacket> I have no relation to TTD... OpenTTD is "default" for me
11:07:30 <LordAro> don't worry, petern is just really old
11:09:05 <petern> That would just be TT π
11:13:59 <petern> And I'm not even the longest nor oldest OTTD dev π
11:15:59 <petern> andythenorth: salad time
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12:35:51 <andythenorth> petern: I had chicken salad
12:35:54 <andythenorth> shall we do pictures?
12:36:12 <andythenorth> the best social content
12:51:59 <petern> I think pictures of mine would be frowned upon.
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15:27:58 <supermop_toil> i love the tto ui
15:30:01 <pickpacket> what's the difference between Industries and IndustryTiles in NML?
15:31:58 <andythenorth> Tiles are per tile, and belong to an industry
15:32:10 <andythenorth> they are primarily concerned with displaying the sprites
15:32:21 <andythenorth> so most of their properties, vars and callbacks relate to that
15:32:31 <andythenorth> Industry has the production logic, and the tile layouts
15:32:50 <andythenorth> both Industry and IndustryTile can have location restrictions when constructing industry
15:33:00 <pickpacket> okay. Does that mean I need IndustryTiles to show sprites?
15:33:08 <andythenorth> they're composed into a layout
15:33:35 <andythenorth> there is a sidebar about the default baseset tiles
15:33:39 <andythenorth> but best ignore that
15:35:32 <pickpacket> Do I have to declare accepted cargoes in both? It's done very differently
15:39:59 <supermop_toil> i think you have to set which tiles accept the cargo - its possible to have tiles of a power plant not accept coal, for example. I believe in the base industries the substation/transformer tile does not
15:40:09 <andythenorth> iirc, there's a flag for making the tiles follow the industry acceptance
15:40:16 <andythenorth> that's relatively modern, so might not be in the examples
15:40:38 <andythenorth> INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL
15:40:55 <andythenorth> use that, unless you're trying to do fancy stuff
15:41:04 <supermop_toil> might be realistic to force players to drop coal off at the furnace part, but mostly it just serves to confuse players
15:41:55 <supermop_toil> pillow-y toy buttons
15:42:01 <petern> (That was 9 years ago, haha)
15:42:06 <LordAro> oh, that's what you've really been working towards
15:42:48 <andythenorth> also did we integrate Doom! yet?
15:43:08 <supermop_toil> has anyone ported openttd to TI-86 yet?
15:44:25 <supermop_toil> i wonder how non-volatile that memory is... will mine that i haven't used in 20 years still have tetris on it?
15:58:39 <petern> Not just battery backed?
16:30:45 <petern> Well that's weird, `#include "safeguards.h"` works fine when it should really be `#include "../safeguards.h"`
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16:35:39 <LordAro> i imagine cmake is adding -I. or similar to the compiler?
16:36:09 <glx[d]> supermop_toil: the TI-85/TI-86 tetris ? with link play ?
16:37:03 <glx[d]> or .. full path is in include path
16:52:40 <Wolf01> Meh, google dismisses iot core on august 2023... I didn't receive any communication yet, I need to find an alternative service :(
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17:00:01 <supermop_toil> glx[d]: i didn't have my own cable, always had to borrow one to get games
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17:47:16 <WoozyDragon4018> supermop_toil: bruhh ππ
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17:50:27 * andythenorth has been busy working
17:59:35 <pickpacket> I'm slowly getting somewhere, I think. I'm struggling because the tutorial covers making a road vehicle, but making a new industry seems to be very different
18:04:22 <pickpacket> "The cargos that are accepted by this tile. CargoID is a cargo type from your cargo translation table, amount is the acceptance of the given cargo in 1/8 units." --- Whaaaa...? "cargo translation table"? Eighths of units?
18:04:39 <pickpacket> INDTILE_FLAG_ACCEPT_ALL makes sense though
18:04:51 <andythenorth> if you're in NML
18:05:02 <andythenorth> and you use the accept all flag
18:05:17 <andythenorth> you can ignore all of that part of the docs
18:05:53 <andythenorth> however I can explain if you want π
18:07:28 <pickpacket> andythenorth: I'll probably love an explanation at some later point but right now I just want the simplest solution :D
18:07:47 <pickpacket> When an ID for anything is given as XXh what does that mean?
18:10:21 <jfs-> Bouke: you already have them, that backtrace you posted contains symbol names for all the stack frames including those in openttd code
18:11:08 <Bouke> jfs-: I kinda was expecting line numbers to go with those offsets?
18:11:47 <jfs-> oh... I'm not sure they would make much sense with an optimized build tho
18:13:10 <JGR> Line numbers won't be included in vanilla release builds, if that is turned on they're still mostly correct and useful though
18:14:20 <Bouke> I thought that's what debug symbols are for? To map offsets to line numbers?
18:14:40 <Bouke> (and also offsets to function names of course)
18:15:31 <jfs-> but like, that backtrace seems like total nonsense to me... it's in some macos input system and then making a savegame load/save stream filter and then suddenly handling a socket event and cleaning out the companies pool?
18:15:31 <jfs-> were you in a network game when it happened? loading a game? saving?
18:15:37 <FLHerne> tile acceptance is in n/8, where 8/8 in a station's catchment area is required for the cargo to be accepted
18:15:48 <FLHerne> for industries and town buildings
18:16:20 <FLHerne> so if you want any one tile to represent the whole industry, just make them all 8/8
18:16:30 <Bouke> I *think* I was about to do a save of a network game.
18:16:44 <pickpacket> FLHerne: but can a tile be 2/8 within a catchment area? Either the tile is in or out, no?
18:16:50 <FLHerne> if they were all 3/8 a station would have to include at least three tiles in its catchment area
18:17:00 <JGR> The stack trace is not necessarily wrong, the issue is that the symbol offsets are very large
18:17:48 <FLHerne> like a lot of industry features, it's not really obvious what the point is :p
18:17:49 <JGR> Implying that it's using the wrong symbols
18:18:19 <FLHerne> you can add a lot of complexity, but all it does is confuse players for the sake of very marginal 'realism' improvements
18:18:54 <FLHerne> it makes more sense with houses
18:20:22 <JGR> `CleanPool() + 226451` indicates that it's not actually in that function
18:21:09 <petern> I know templates can expand a bit but that's a bit excessive π
18:22:04 <JGR> You might have better luck using lldb or addr2line
18:34:41 <Bouke> I cannot reproduce the crash at will. I only have this crash log and the 12.2 binary. Is there any way to get a usable crash location / stack trace?
18:35:23 <JGR> Is the binary form the website/github, or one you compiled yourself?
18:43:59 <Bouke> (note: it's the macOS build)
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18:57:39 <JGR> I've dumped the symbol table, and the address does fall into a large gap
18:58:03 <JGR> The previous symbol is indeed the CleanPool function
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18:59:22 <Bouke> So would've "proper" debug symbols have helped here? I mean the compiler must've known what contributed code contributed to that offset?
19:03:13 <JGR> If you do a local build with `-DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo` you should get better crash logs
19:03:55 <JGR> The compiler will have known but it won't have written that information anywhere for a release build
19:13:14 <pickpacket> ugh... does anyone have a GIMP pallette for the DOS colours?
19:14:59 <Bouke> Should we include that build flag with the release builds on the website?
19:15:26 <nielsm> it makes the output file significantly larger
19:18:19 <JGR> Macosx seems to produce a disproportionate number of crash bug reports so it may still be worthwhile?
19:19:45 <JGR> The macos binaries from my branch are about twice the size of the 12.2 ones from the website because of debug tables
19:20:04 <JGR> It's basically impossible to do anything with bug reports I get from mac users otherwise
19:21:23 <TrueBrain> (Oops, linked Linux, bit lower same code exists for MacOS)
19:21:57 <Bouke> TrueBrain: Apparently, but that's been there for 2 years -- so shouldn't 12.2 already have shipped with them?
19:22:14 <TrueBrain> If they aren't, means something stripped the binary
19:22:29 <TrueBrain> Which was not by design
19:23:30 <JGR> If it was stripped the stack trace would not have any symbols at all
19:24:49 <andythenorth> might be time I taught nmlc to say *which* pixels are animated
19:24:55 <andythenorth> not just their bounding box location
19:25:08 <andythenorth> exact pixel positions would be much more useful
19:26:21 <frosch> c++23 is said to have a stacktrace library π
19:26:46 <frosch> but who knows when/if that is available for osx
19:32:52 <andythenorth> meh nml pixel_stats doesn't track x,y locs
19:32:57 <andythenorth> maybe I should just write my own thing
19:33:00 <nielsm> but it's not like that would help having debug symbols in the binary
19:33:19 <andythenorth> it's really common that other people's sprites have spurious animated pixels
19:33:23 <andythenorth> and I have to manually fix
19:33:38 <andythenorth> particularly their are browns and yellows where the RGB value is almost identical
19:33:58 <andythenorth> total pain in the arse
19:34:06 <frosch> andythenorth: feed them through rgbaeater
19:34:22 <frosch> it's one of the many thing to integrate into nml
19:35:25 <andythenorth> oh V wrote docs and stuff π
19:35:26 <andythenorth> --disallowed_colour_indexes
19:35:52 <andythenorth> all I want is the actual x,y position
19:36:07 <andythenorth> quite often there are *supposed* to be some animated pixels in the spritesheet
19:36:13 <andythenorth> but not everywhere
19:36:23 <Bouke> So we've established, based on the stacktrace, that `-DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo` is enabled for the build, but that we expected a more detailed stacktrace?
19:36:49 <frosch> Bouke: that stacktrace in the issue is broken
19:36:54 <frosch> stack corruption or something
19:37:00 <frosch> more debug symbols would not help there
19:37:13 <TrueBrain> I guess the only way to get "more" is to disable optimizations, honestly π
19:38:07 <frosch> there is no point in "more" if already the first frame is wrong
19:38:21 <TrueBrain> frosch: there is a reason it is quoted π
19:38:23 <frosch> there is no "ServerNetworkGameSocketHandler" in a singleplayer game
19:39:21 <TrueBrain> frosch: so basically this means you can write non-OS specific crashlog code? π
19:39:25 <frosch> and then alternating between savegame compression and unicode input
19:39:49 <TrueBrain> would be nice ... I always dread having to add that to any application of mine
19:39:59 <Bouke> (it was a network game)
19:40:02 <TrueBrain> especially as OpenTTD's is .. hard to understand π
19:40:08 <Bouke> (see also the greyed out fast forward button)
19:41:02 <TrueBrain> it is almost a reason to upgrade to C++23 π
19:41:43 <JGR> A replacement stack trace library won't produce better results if the symbol table is still very short for whatever reason
19:41:54 <frosch> TrueBrain: it's only available for gcc currently, and possibly only linux
19:42:09 <TrueBrain> yeah .. well .. new good things start somewhere
19:42:17 <nielsm> does it also have a platform-agnostic way to assign helpful names to threads? that does not involve (explicitly) raising SEH exceptions on windows
19:45:32 <Bouke> So based on the stacktrace in that issue, there's no way to further fix this? I would have to attach a debugger and try to reproduce the crash? And (apart from C++ 23) we have no solution to improve the crash reporting (on macOS)?
19:45:53 <nielsm> if you don't have a memory dump file there probably isn't anything to do
19:46:06 <nielsm> but if there is a dump it might be able to reconstruct the true stack somehow
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19:46:30 <frosch> did you try loading the crash.sav?
19:46:40 <frosch> if it is game-state related, that would trigger it again
19:46:49 <Bouke> Yep the save game loaded fine and we've been playing it for a few hours afterwards.
19:47:25 <Bouke> Does OTTD write a memory dump?
19:47:40 <frosch> on linux i have "ulimit -c unlimited" enabled by default
19:47:49 <frosch> no idea whether anything similar exists for osx
19:48:42 <pickpacket> I need to be off to bed... So far I've just been trying to get a "soylent green" one-tile factory to work. I'm not there yet, and I'm struggling with the whole sprite/spriteset/spritelayout shenanigans. Will continue tomorrow evening. If anyone is curious about my progress so far: https://notabug.org/tinyrabbit/tea-tea-deluxe
19:50:17 <nielsm> pickpacket: I think you need to place the FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES block before the FEAT_INDUSTRIES block
19:50:59 <nielsm> you need to define things before you use them
19:51:32 <nielsm> so first you define the raw graphics sprites, then you define the sprite layouts, then you define the tile layouts, and then you define the industry
19:52:04 <pickpacket> oh! I'll try that first thing tomorrow :D Thanks!
19:54:03 <andythenorth> oof, I suppose I should set all the decay periods and stuff for cargos
19:54:07 * andythenorth so bored by that idea
19:54:32 <nielsm> and you need a tilelayout block too, which defines a named layout for the tiles on the map, and then you refer that layout in the layouts property of the industry itself
19:57:18 <petern> andythenorth: making NewGRFs **is** the gameplay...
19:57:39 <andythenorth> only the fun parts though
19:57:59 <andythenorth> trying to improve this is blah blah
19:58:14 <andythenorth> and dP made another chart showing how all the cargo payment stuff is bollocks for gameplay
19:58:29 <andythenorth> was it lunch? π
19:59:01 <andythenorth> our local Tesco resolutely doesn't sell them
19:59:05 <andythenorth> would have to go to Waitrose
19:59:13 <andythenorth> and the problem with Waitrose is the other customers
20:00:05 <andythenorth> but launch the rocket
20:00:11 <andythenorth> I am winning the game
20:00:22 <petern> I can do that in Excel
20:00:23 <JGR> Diffing my branch with master and that is off in mine
20:01:19 <JGR> Bourke: might be worth doing a local build with that changed and see if you get a better result next time
20:01:26 <TrueBrain> TrueBrain: called it! π π π
20:01:32 <nielsm> I wonder if the industry example in NML should be extended to show making a new tile layout and include custom tile graphics
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20:02:35 <TrueBrain> in my humble opinion, we shouldn't strip. Those few extra MiB aren't an issue anymore in this day and age
20:04:29 <Bouke> JGR: This is great! I'll try this. Now I need to get the crash reproduced...
20:05:46 <Bouke> TrueBrain: Agreed; being able to understand a crash will be worth it.
20:09:30 <frosch> is there no option to put the debug symbols into a separate file?
20:09:40 <TrueBrain> Debian does it, so there is; but is that worth the effort?
20:09:55 <TrueBrain> we are TINY, compared to any other game that people actually play π
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20:13:45 <frosch> 7MB vs. 270MB is a difference
20:14:38 <frosch> no idea how often people download osx binaries compared to zbase
20:15:05 <frosch> though i guess binaries are deducted from valve's bandwidth, not ours
20:16:19 <frosch> oh, and osx is universal, so even more
20:37:02 <Bouke> Interestingly macOS reports a different stacktrace for the same crash:
20:37:02 <Bouke> Thread 0 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
20:37:02 <Bouke> 0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x00007fff727ff32a __pthread_kill + 10
20:37:02 <Bouke> 1 libsystem_pthread.dylib 0x00007fff728bfe60 pthread_kill + 430
20:37:02 <Bouke> 2 libsystem_c.dylib 0x00007fff72786808 abort + 120
20:37:03 <Bouke> 3 org.openttd.openttd 0x0000000101d0dc27 0x101aca000 + 2374695
20:37:03 <Bouke> 4 libsystem_platform.dylib 0x00007fff728b45fd _sigtramp + 29
20:37:05 <Bouke> 5 ??? 0x00007fff8fc2f4c0 OBJC_CLASS_$_NSInputClientWrapper + 40
20:37:05 <Bouke> 6 org.openttd.openttd 0x0000000101dda036 0x101aca000 + 3211318
20:43:18 <TrueBrain> frosch: Where does that number come from? It is a bit without context π
20:43:55 <frosch> i am a bit confused about binary sizes
20:44:12 <frosch> 7MB is the current size of the offical linux-generic binary, uncompressed
20:44:38 <frosch> my local debug build makes 270MB, relwithdebug is 200MB, release is 12MB
20:44:59 <frosch> i did not try stripping my local builds
20:45:11 <frosch> but either way, my local debug builds are huge π
20:45:28 <TrueBrain> Debug builds always are π
20:45:43 <TrueBrain> I do not remember relwithdebinfo being that big, but I might be mistaken
20:45:55 <TrueBrain> I remember a 30% size increase
20:48:03 <JGR> Bouke: This is the same stack trace, the first few entries in the OpenTTD one are within the crash log writer
20:48:58 <frosch> TrueBrain: maybe the dwarfs need to compensate for something
20:49:23 <Bouke> Oh hmm these don't appear to include Pool<...> as the first frames?
20:50:02 <JGR> Compare the addresses, not the symbol names
20:54:53 <Bouke> Up until `0x00007fff728b45fd` they appear to be the same, but from there on up they are different no? (0-3 vs [00]-[02])
20:56:40 <JGR> [00] to [02] are within OpenTTD's crash log handler
20:57:21 <JGR> 0 - 3 are from after the log has been written and abort has been called from within the signal handler
21:08:35 <JGR> [05] 101dda036 is the instruction after the call highlighted here
21:11:35 <JGR> The symbols referenced in the next function down suggest that it's from one of the macos-specific files
21:13:04 <Bouke> Looks like some sort of callback from the AppKit framework.
21:13:34 <Bouke> JGR: Thanks, although I'm not that well-versed in reading semi-assembly :?
21:13:50 <glx[d]> btw all macos reports we have in issues start with Pool<..> and that's of course incorrect (even the touchbar crash reports)
21:15:39 <JGR> The function below looks like `- (NSAttributedString *)attributedSubstringForProposedRange:(NSRange)theRange actualRange:(NSRangePointer)actualRange`
21:16:00 <JGR> So possibly this is `- (BOOL)hasMarkedText`
21:16:42 <JGR> If `_focused_window` was null it would be consistent with the macos crash report
21:18:44 <Bouke> I do recall that while I clicked "save" I also clicked elsewhere in the game. So that might be it?
21:19:31 <glx[d]> Bouke: to test the crash report with cmake change, you can use master and the touchbar with 32bpp-sse4-anim
21:19:38 <Bouke> (That particular mouse is a little flacky, triggering additional mouse clicks instead of a single click)
21:35:11 <petern> Oh yeah, I was going to do more OpenTTD, but I've instead ended up replacing jquery with native javascript on my... OBS browser views... Christ.
21:35:38 <petern> (The javascript animate() works much better than the jquery animate())
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21:46:50 <andythenorth> I set industry map colours
21:46:54 <andythenorth> and watched youtube
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21:55:02 <petern> I split all the NWidget code and then stuffed it into a branch I'll never look at.
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22:20:33 <JGR> Looks suspiciously like _focused_window is non-null but dangling/invalid
22:23:41 <petern> Window::Close() clears _focused_window if it matches `this`, but ~Window() itself doesn't do so.
22:24:44 <petern> Not sure if windows are deleted anywhere though.
22:24:51 <petern> (Other than DeleteClosedWindows())
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22:46:19 <glx[d]> deletion is delayed and should not happen outside DeleteClosedWindows() (the code theorically ensure that)
22:55:01 <glx[d]> and indeed _focused_window is probably not null as EditBoxInGlobalFocus() checks that
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continue to next day β΅
