IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-09-28
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07:55:37 <petern> How is it nearly work o'clock already 😦
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09:27:11 <petern> andythenorth: can't we just have program-less programs, like we have server-less servers?
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10:24:11 <petern> "Please give me rights to do X" erm, nope, I'm the developer, not the rights assigner...
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10:41:07 <andythenorth> principle of least access, least privilege
11:00:18 * pickpacket always has permissions for pretty much everything
11:01:08 <pickpacket> my team handles all the services. Internal IT handles all the f***ing Microsoft blah
11:11:30 <petern> Oops, forgot how hot the black peperamis are... whew!
12:06:30 <andythenorth> do we have a preferred / winning html template language currently?
12:06:48 <andythenorth> 'we' = the world, not OpenTTD
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12:29:04 <petern> When/why did we decide that pressed buttons need their content to be shifted?
12:29:20 <petern> I wonder if it was something I did...
12:39:28 <petern> I should look for tar.gz, 7zip and lha towns.
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14:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> what about tar.xz?
14:33:53 <pickpacket> A couple of days ago the game generated a map with Slutville when I played. I feel like something went a bit wrong there
14:34:26 <pickpacket> actually it probably wasn’t ”ville” at the end, but it did start with Slut
14:35:09 <LordAro> there are a few banned combinations
14:42:05 <FLHerne> it's a good thing there aren't descriptions
14:42:33 <ag> That's a very inappropriate name for a town
14:42:51 <FLHerne> > Tioranin This world is most notable for Tioraninian vicious brew but ravaged by unpredictable civil war.
14:43:04 <FLHerne> ag: they're generated by semi-randomly combining syllables
14:43:18 <FLHerne> which is why they're all kind of weird
14:44:16 <ag> X as in any language or region
14:46:06 <FLHerne> well, sometimes those are disconcerting when they're places I know of
14:46:38 <FLHerne> also because the town naming knows nothing about geography
14:47:08 <FLHerne> so you get Portsmouth on the top of a mountain or whatever
14:47:13 <ag> X on sea which is nowhere near sea
14:47:39 <FLHerne> perhaps there should be town-naming scripts
14:47:49 <ag> Or London being the smallest settlement on the map
14:48:49 <petern> "ancient loathing of sit coms" sounds legit tbh
14:49:19 <ag> Sounds like a news article headline
14:55:03 <petern> # 9. Lerela This planet is a tedious little planet.
14:55:27 <petern> That's quite a few dull or tedious places.
14:56:05 <andythenorth> what was the 4th Dimension Elite clone?
14:56:21 <andythenorth> it was impossible to get past level 7 on the version I had, the planet unlock code was wrong
14:56:30 <andythenorth> I think we even wrote to ask them
15:07:51 <supermop_toil> "Ususorian edible poet." i'm getting hungry
15:26:15 <petern> 1 person streaming OpenTTD on Twitch.
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17:58:52 <TrueBrain> your mouth is open, please close it, the draft is annoying 😛
18:01:37 <andythenorth> your tongue is out, you'll catch flies on it 🤑
18:28:13 <supermop_toil> ottd supports touch bar?
18:34:32 <pickpacket> I need my NewGRF to be compatible with OpenTTD 1.10.3. I add a couple of new industries and a couple of new cargoes. Do I have to add specific vehicles for these too?
18:35:18 <andythenorth> not if you have set cargo classes, and you don't want specific cargo sprites
18:35:42 <andythenorth> but you won't get base set support that way, players will need grf vehicle
18:35:57 <andythenorth> but backwards support is over-rated IMO 🙂
18:36:16 <andythenorth> is this because the Android client is stuck behind due to world circumstances?
18:37:23 <Brickblock1> The Android Client is new enough but other ports might not be
18:37:28 <pickpacket> nah it's because Debian Stable has the older version. I want to be compatible with that
18:37:40 <andythenorth> oh distro things 🙂
18:38:15 <andythenorth> adding your own vehicles to a cargo / industry grf was historically considered wrong, but I'm not convinced it is wrong
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18:38:32 <andythenorth> but it's quite laborious, when you could just depend on grfs
18:38:37 <pickpacket> I didn't quite understand your answer 🤔 If I set cargo classes, does it work in the older version?
18:39:01 <andythenorth> it will work with well-coded grf vehicles (most are), but not base set vehicles
18:39:14 <pickpacket> I don't mind the idea of specific vehicles, except for the amount of work involved.
18:39:19 <andythenorth> base set vehicles had no concept of classes before 12.0
18:39:44 <glx[d]> 1.10.3 will still need newgrf vehicles
18:39:51 <andythenorth> you could copy vehicles from OGFX+
18:40:01 <andythenorth> but your project rapidly grows
18:40:15 <andythenorth> you'd need a full set of train wagons, all generations of road vehicles and planes
18:40:22 <andythenorth> I think it's overkill
18:40:29 <andythenorth> why is Debian so far behind?
18:40:33 <andythenorth> is that just what Stable means?
18:40:44 <andythenorth> how is that even compliant with infosec?
18:40:56 <andythenorth> that means no UK government supplier can use Debian Stable
18:42:24 <Brickblock1> I remember when I tried to install openttd on Ubuntu it worked but the version was super old and I did not know how to un install it.
18:42:33 <Heili_> Debian Stable does get security updates when needed, but OpenTTD updates tend to be not security related
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18:43:02 <andythenorth> is there no way to just run the 12.0 binary on Debian?
18:43:22 <andythenorth> there seems to be a cohort of Linux users who are captured by their distro
18:43:37 <andythenorth> who are quite different to the "yolo it's all mine, freedom" type of Linux user
18:44:28 <andythenorth> seems to be like being a mac user, without the excitingly aggressive elimination of backwards compatibility 😛
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18:56:32 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: just include one MPS whatever truck that carries 40 crates of anything, available 0-50000
18:56:50 <supermop_toil> and disable if any other RVs loaded?
18:56:57 <supermop_toil> is that possible?
19:06:06 <pickpacket> andythenorth: I can probably add the repo for the testing version and install from there
19:06:46 <pickpacket> and quite frankly I'll rather do that than build a dozen vehicles 🤪
19:17:30 <pickpacket> ugh. I'm reading the NML tutorial but quite frankly I learn better dissecting existing code
19:17:52 <pickpacket> does anyone know of a fairly small NewGRF written in NML that I can look at?
19:21:19 <pickpacket> quite frankly I've said quite frankly a lot lately
19:24:04 <andythenorth> ogfx + grfs are big but simple
19:24:11 <Brickblock1> I have this but it might not be relevant for industries and contains some garbage.
19:24:47 <frosch> pickpacket: for compatibility with 1.10 you probably also need an old version of nml
19:24:50 <andythenorth> oh maybe those repos are on coop
19:25:34 <pickpacket> frosch: that's not a deal breaker, but having to make a huge set of vehicles is :P
19:25:36 <frosch> i guess the one packaged by your distro will work
19:26:04 <frosch> why? there are plenty of other vehicle sets
19:26:04 <andythenorth> I don't have any simple grfs to offer 😐
19:26:04 <pickpacket> NML is distro independent
19:26:33 <frosch> "apt-get install nml" exists nevertheless
19:26:40 <frosch> it's 0.5.3 in debian stable
19:27:07 <pickpacket> frosch: I was told that if I create new cargoes for 1.10.3 I'd need to create new vehicles as well because cargo classes weren't a thing
19:28:16 <Brickblock1> Cargo classes existed but were not used by the base game only new grfs
19:28:45 <andythenorth> pickpacket: that might be lost in translation 😉
19:29:09 <andythenorth> if you are happy to load other vehicle newgrfs (not yours) then you don't need to make vehicles
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19:29:40 <andythenorth> if you only want to use the vanilla vehicles provided by the OpenTTD client, then you need 12.0, or you write your own vehicles
19:29:46 * andythenorth clarifications :)
19:31:04 <pickpacket> oh! Can I expect *all* NewGRFs to support cargo classes?
19:33:44 <andythenorth> all recent, well-coded newgrfs
19:33:48 <andythenorth> sorry for confusion
19:33:56 <andythenorth> both English, and the world of OpenTTD
19:34:00 <andythenorth> contain confusion
19:34:14 <andythenorth> 'recent' is last 10 years or more
19:35:45 <Brickblock1> The only grf that I know of that doesn't is Swedish trains but I have made a separate grf to fix it.
19:50:58 <pickpacket> Definitely going for cargo classes
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19:54:39 <FLHerne> there are a handful of grfs that do support cargo classes, but fail to provide vehicles (or a usable vehicle progression) for every combination
19:55:22 <FLHerne> Bob's British Road Vehicles was one, but the latest version is improved
19:56:28 <FLHerne> but FIRS has set the bar pretty high for cargo support in all recent grfs
19:56:34 <andythenorth> should Steeltown import alcohol for towns?
19:56:40 <andythenorth> or should it be clean living?
19:59:12 <supermop_toil> beer street and gin lane?
20:00:19 <andythenorth> I have reworked quite a lot of the end game
20:00:29 <andythenorth> but dunno if it improved it yet 😛
20:00:37 <supermop_toil> keep steel mill production above x per month or towns stop accepting alcohol and start accepting opioids
20:00:40 <andythenorth> I'm designing for a non-existent gamescript
20:00:50 <andythenorth> I have all kinds of weird silly ideas
20:01:04 <andythenorth> like ports that progressively unlock cargos
20:01:23 <andythenorth> supplying them causes cargos to start being produced
20:01:46 <andythenorth> simple is better though
20:03:50 <andythenorth> also considering a marine fab yard, that accepts pipe and other steel, and produces scrap metal
20:08:13 <andythenorth> I could get probably do an Industrial Machines end cargo, that would look nice
20:08:31 <andythenorth> but I can't see how to do it without doubling inputs
20:09:05 <andythenorth> Steeltown has a natural rule that keeps re-asserting itself
20:09:22 <andythenorth> if a cargo goes in to e.g. step 2 in the chain, it isn't also an input in step 3
20:09:30 <andythenorth> except for limestone
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20:12:50 <pickpacket> andythenorth: have them accept alcohol, but not during the prohibition era :D
20:38:34 <andythenorth> some will take sensible defaults, usually '0' 😛
20:39:44 <andythenorth> depends how much you want to read about bytes 😛
20:40:19 <andythenorth> it's probably not wise at first
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20:45:23 <FLHerne> ^ most of NML is pretty much a 1:1 representation of NFO constructs but with human-readable names
20:45:50 <FLHerne> the bits that aren't usually seem to be a bad idea :p
20:46:47 <glx[d]> for stations, nml hides a lot of the NFO spec weirdness 🙂
20:47:34 <FLHerne> ah, I haven't looked at that yet
20:48:25 <glx[d]> it's still weird to write compared to industry tiles or objects, but it's better than plain NFO
20:56:12 <petern> Is "fullscreen" actually wrong?
20:57:10 <petern> When describing a mode or setting, "fullscreen" or "full-screen" should be used as it's an adjective. As a noun, or when describing anything occupying the entire display or screen, "full screen" should be used.
20:57:27 <Bouke> the space was added as this is referring to the mode macOS calls "Full Screen"
20:58:31 <petern> OS X being wrong as always!
20:59:28 <glx[d]> hey at least we have someone willing to touch macOS code 🙂
20:59:48 <andythenorth> ahem someone who isn't michi 🙂
20:59:54 <andythenorth> who has to do it without a mac
21:00:05 <andythenorth> I am only here because michi kept the mac port alive 😛
21:00:19 <andythenorth> although I did try the Wine thing
21:00:44 <Bouke> hear hear... without a Mac binary I wouldn't be here 😉
21:02:06 <Bouke> are there any stats on the usage of the various binaries/platforms for ottd?
21:02:09 <petern> Anyway, if they call it "Full Screen", perhaps it needs the caps.
21:03:12 <petern> I wonder what I can get sidetracked on tonight
21:04:11 <andythenorth> company colour GUI
21:04:22 <andythenorth> 'why is it weird dropdowns'
21:04:47 <glx[d]> you want a color picker ?
21:05:20 <andythenorth> I want it to be less weird 🙂
21:05:31 <andythenorth> goes it throw out? 😛
21:05:47 <glx[d]> I guess it's because the limited number of company colour in the palette
21:06:41 <andythenorth> specifically the vehicles GUI
21:06:47 <andythenorth> which is like nothing else I ever saw
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21:06:57 <andythenorth> select a line, then go to the table header, and choose the colour 😛
21:07:20 <andythenorth> I am sure there are reasons 🙂
21:08:49 <petern> Yea, I copied it from ttdpatch
21:09:16 <petern> Lots of dropdowns would also suck
21:10:04 <petern> Hmm, ok. Click on the label and popup a colour selector, maybe
21:13:21 <andythenorth> something like that
21:13:28 <andythenorth> tonight's distraction Richard
21:13:33 <andythenorth> or was it Matthew?
21:13:42 <andythenorth> can't remember, it was TV
21:14:11 <andythenorth> how about a global painting tool? 😛
21:14:15 <andythenorth> it would be silly
21:14:36 <andythenorth> select it, anything 'paintable' becomes a highlighted click target
21:14:58 <andythenorth> UI elements, newgrf sprites...etc
21:15:16 <andythenorth> chart backgrounds
21:15:51 <andythenorth> I'll get my coat
21:46:43 <andythenorth> pipework fabricator then?
21:46:55 <andythenorth> 6 cargos left before the prize
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21:47:55 <andythenorth> shard to a new newgrf
21:48:13 <andythenorth> oh limit is 64 total
21:50:21 <andythenorth> how many kinds of bolt are there in the world?
21:50:28 <andythenorth> metric, imperial
21:50:33 <andythenorth> different thread pitch
21:50:47 <andythenorth> hex, penta, square head
21:51:53 <andythenorth> anyway pipe fabricator is quite cool
21:52:06 <andythenorth> authors will love drawing those 😛
21:53:18 <petern> Sounds like work data... so you want a 12S cauliflower, 8S cauliflower, or a 6S cauliflower?
21:54:09 <andythenorth> are SKUs SKUs, or are they a container containing other SKUs?
21:54:19 <andythenorth> and how do we know if we can fulfil the order?
21:54:41 <andythenorth> and do I order 12x SKU A, or 1x SKU B, which is a box of 12x SKU A
21:55:11 <andythenorth> nobody did an SKU grf
22:01:26 <andythenorth> no really bedtime
22:01:44 <andythenorth> forklift truck factory maybe?
22:07:19 <petern> Thanks Explorer, just needed you to crash right now.
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22:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: looks like a ship part
22:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd file that under "machines"
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continue to next day ⏵
