IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-09-26
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00:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> care to enlighten us nondiscordians?
00:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a double negative. maybe "concord"?
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00:22:49 <TallTyler> "This channel provides a bridge to a relic of the past. You may have heard your great-grandfather talk about it. Before people sent telegraphs, they would use IRC. Some people never stopped. This channel is for them."
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01:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds accurate
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07:16:56 <pickpacket> I'm at work now, but this evening I'm planning on trying to get my NewGRF working. It's just that I really don't know how to debug it. Debug output gives me nothing, and I haven't been able to get anything from the in-game console
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10:55:38 <FLHerne> pickpacket: disassemble it with grfcodec, look at the NFO
11:22:03 <petern> This seems a bit unreasonable for a beginner with presumably a simple GRF.
11:23:11 <pickpacket> yeah... that's a steep learning curve...
11:23:30 <pickpacket> If I knew NFO I would write it in that :P
11:27:58 <pickpacket> what happens to cargo supplied by secondary industries? I.e. I specified Tea Tree Farm as a primary industry that supplies Tea Leaves, and Tea Factory as a secondary industry that accepts Tea Leaves and supplies Tea Tea Deluxe, but what happens to that? I'd love it if cities would accept it like they do goods, mail, and passengers. Is that
11:27:58 <pickpacket> something I have to fix myself somehow? And do I need to create custom vehicles for these two new types of cargo?
11:29:20 <TallTyler> You’d have to make something that accepts it, whether it be a house or an industry that appears in cities.
11:30:09 <TallTyler> You don’t need to create vehicles though, all modern NewGRF vehicles use cargo classes to determine what they can carry.
11:31:06 <Brickblock1> base game also uses cargo classes now
11:32:57 * pickpacket writes "Add Tea house" to list
11:35:17 <pickpacket> I'd love it if cities accepted tea without any specific building for it, but tea houses will do for a start.
11:35:53 <pickpacket> wait... if my NewGRF produces something that isn't accepted by anything, could that be what crashes everything for me?
12:00:48 <TallTyler> No, that doesn’t cause a crash
12:27:51 <pickpacket> Sooo... there was a value in the yaml file... "available: false"
12:28:14 <pickpacket> I changed it to true and now the NewGRF works. Except there are *no other* industries on the map...
12:29:24 <TallTyler> Did you disable all other industries?
12:29:43 <TallTyler> Or does TrueGRF do that automatically?
12:29:49 <petern> World domination of tea.
12:29:55 <pickpacket> Looks like TrueGRF does that
12:29:56 <petern> No other industry is needed
12:30:03 <pickpacket> petern: you have a point
12:31:09 <TallTyler> If you decide to make a Tea House to accept the Tea Tea Deluxe, I’d suggest going the industry route rather than a house. I use a house in my industry sets and it causes a lot of support questions. 😛
12:31:25 <pickpacket> this is both in the TrueGRF web game and locally, btw
12:31:41 <pickpacket> TallTyler: yeah I was thinking making it an industry based in cities
12:34:33 <pickpacket> could this have to do with industry and cargo IDs?
12:47:19 <TallTyler> No other industries present? It’s probably something built in to TrueGRF. Most industry sets do that since they tend to conflict unless you design them not to, or only use common cargo types like passengers.
13:03:56 <andythenorth> at some point TrueBrain will show up with questions or answers 🙂
13:36:15 <petern> andythenorth: Have you made a TTD .ttf yet?
13:41:10 <petern> Just get the VDU 23 commands out.
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15:52:03 <nielsm> well that was interesting. I was about to install Quake 3 from my old cd on a retro pc, and when I open the jewel case, I find my Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD on top of the Quake 3 CD
15:59:30 <petern> I wonder what "Fox omntera;" was meant to be...
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16:27:23 <petern> "Fix includes" seems to be it.
16:50:39 <frosch> you can get an arm5 development board, if you port ottd to it, and blog about it
16:55:46 <petern> I have an ARM7500, based on ARM7, which is of course ARMv3...
16:56:16 <petern> Not sure there was an ARM5, but there was ARMv5.
16:58:43 <andythenorth> not sure what ARM I have
17:01:29 <petern> fccache.c? What's that...
17:02:54 <petern> Hmm, part of fontconfig.
17:03:28 <andythenorth> RISC looks like programming grf 😛
17:03:50 * andythenorth is not suggesting that grf is RISC :P
17:04:11 <petern> Have we JITted NewGRF yet?
17:04:20 <andythenorth> 'would be faster'
17:07:25 <petern> Hmm, don't have a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to plug in to the A7000+
17:12:19 <andythenorth> I never did get an emulator working reliably 😛
17:12:31 <andythenorth> having an ARM CPU doesn't particularly win me much there
17:12:43 <frosch> andythenorth: it's the other way around. GRF are CISC. va2 have an accumulator and can only do operations with that. there are tons of registers with special meaning
17:12:51 <frosch> in RISC registers are pretty interchangeable
17:13:57 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: This. TrueGRF uses a WYSIWYG approach, so the industries that you see is what you get. And if you don't enable any .. Well, not sure 😄 but don't 😉
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17:46:56 <glx[d]> #10053 is weird, blame the distribution ?
17:48:00 <glx[d]> oh it's in bootstrap, we never test thta 🙂
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18:05:38 <LordAro> probably get them to test master, given recent changes
18:05:48 <petern> I think it's looking for fallback glyphs during bootstrap as the specified font is missing one.
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18:06:46 <petern> Easy enough to try with Fira Sans I guess.
18:06:57 <petern> But I'm on Windows so no fontconfig 🙂
18:08:39 <frosch> we initialise and deinitalise freetype
18:09:16 <frosch> multiple initialisation is supported by freetype, they check whether their singletons exist already
18:09:29 <frosch> but deinit is: first one to trigger it, does it
18:09:40 <frosch> so if multiple users init/deinit, there is a problem
18:10:08 <frosch> on my system sdl2 does not link fontconfig
18:13:14 <petern> Oh, so we (de)init FC, SDL2 (de)inits FC, and boom...
18:14:29 <frosch> so far the theory, i can't prove it 🙂
18:18:21 <petern> Hmm, can't see a reference to FontConfig in SDL_ttf on github.
18:19:52 <andythenorth> shall I go for the full 64? 😛
18:35:01 <petern> fontconfig rather than freetype, I guess
18:36:49 <frosch> i was so confused that freetype linked png
18:39:06 <petern> Uh... why would it do that?
18:41:53 <frosch> "support of PNG compressed OpenType embedded bitmaps"
18:47:27 <petern> libsystemd, let's just blame Lennart
18:51:56 <andythenorth> "cargoflow_graph_tuning"
18:52:59 <andythenorth> let's try some of that
18:57:27 <frosch> is "machine elements" a dead end?
18:59:36 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:05:20 <andythenorth> frosch: will go for export
19:05:31 <andythenorth> I am going to wormhole cargos that go to ports
19:05:37 <andythenorth> should give graphviz an easier time
19:09:54 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: speaking of 90s music, dj last night was playing an italo-disco remix of fatboy slim
19:16:23 <supermop_toil> i should try current firs
19:17:13 <andythenorth> I am about to ruin Steeltown
19:17:24 <andythenorth> might be FIRS 5 when I've finished these tweaks
19:18:10 <andythenorth> ok wormholing the bulk terminal / wharf inputs does improve the layout a bit
19:18:17 <andythenorth> I need to add boxes for those cargos
19:20:42 <frosch> you can add "constraint=false" to edges to make then not affect the positioning
19:20:57 <frosch> instead of the wormholing
19:27:02 <andythenorth> think I tried it last time I was tuning the graph 🙂
19:27:11 <andythenorth> it has....results
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19:36:38 <frosch> maybe you need multiple graphs per economy
19:36:52 <frosch> one with ports only, one without ports, ...
19:37:19 <andythenorth> what about one per cargo?
19:37:29 <andythenorth> and one showing the sub-graph for cargos and industries 😛
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19:37:35 <frosch> you have those in-game
19:37:54 <andythenorth> I was going to suggest a mini-map link also 😛
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19:38:20 <frosch> how about a gs which suggests routes?
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19:39:13 <andythenorth> the font is a bit small on my screen, but eh
19:39:47 <frosch> i wonder whether there is a better svg viewer meanwhile
19:39:52 <frosch> this one is still randomly stuck
19:40:04 <andythenorth> I upgraded it earlier this week to see if that helped
19:41:08 <frosch> did you consider electro town economy? same vehicle cargo in the end, but battery stuff before
19:41:33 <andythenorth> I did wonder about it
19:41:35 <frosch> lots of copper and cobalt
19:41:44 <andythenorth> this one is very peak fossil fuels
19:42:50 <frosch> lithium is so weird.. it's not rare, yet noone needed it in the past
19:43:40 <frosch> what is the engine plant doing with sand?
19:44:03 <andythenorth> strictly they try and recycle the foundry sand, but gameplay
19:44:43 <andythenorth> a lot of stuff is going to town at the end
19:44:55 <andythenorth> for which I need to make FIRS GS actually do something
19:45:06 <andythenorth> even if it's just award random encouragement awards
19:45:07 <frosch> but crankshafts are forged, not casted
19:45:31 <andythenorth> they can all get put together in the assembly plant 😛
19:45:44 <andythenorth> I did try adding screws and bolts and stuff, but it just doesn't work
19:46:22 <andythenorth> I keep making it more realistic, then reversing, to get good cargo splits
19:47:05 <frosch> maybe the electrical parts supply could stall every now and then for a few months
19:47:22 <andythenorth> supply chain simulator
19:47:40 <andythenorth> the problem with the GS is that I got completely distracted by placing pylons
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20:20:03 <andythenorth> doesn't actually improve the layout...yet
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21:21:46 <frosch> well... is it time to drop the graph and replace it with a table? industries in rows, cargos in columns? "IN"/"OUT" in cells?
21:22:15 <frosch> certainly would not look as fancy
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21:29:14 <andythenorth> I think maybe the town industries need moved to an entirely separate graph
21:29:24 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to make graphviz lay them out horizontally
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21:29:56 <andythenorth> with 56 cargos, this is never going to look simple 😛
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21:42:19 <andythenorth> do we have a list long enough? 😛
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continue to next day ⏵
