IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-08-24
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05:02:17 <kamnet> Hey Devs, can somebody take a look at this post and determine if it's spam or if it's legitimate? I've had two people report it for spam, but no explanation as to why, and I'm not smart enough to know for sure.
05:08:05 <LordAro> looks like they're in the wrong forum, rather than it being spam
05:08:11 <LordAro> doesn't look anything to do with OTTD
05:14:39 <kamnet> It's probablyspam then. I remember Kronos being something to do with timekeeping and scheduling management for businesses, didn't know if it was also a name used by something that could time in with OpenTTD.
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06:31:08 <andythenorth> specifically, using the North tile can be confusing to the player for some shapes of industry
06:31:39 <andythenorth> so I was curious if we could calculate the approximate center of the layout
06:31:39 <andythenorth> (xy dimensions / 2)
06:34:11 <dP> imo using any tile would be confusing without preview
06:34:32 <dP> though I guess even with preview it would make more sense to use center
06:35:46 <andythenorth> I don't know how to pick out a tile or anything, otherwise I'd try patching now 😛
06:35:52 <dP> also, the line you linked does prospecting, you probably meant the else part of that if
06:35:52 <andythenorth> but I only have about an hour today
06:37:12 <dP> btw, there is another funny bug there that it starts with first_layout + 1
06:38:30 <dP> hmm... how does irc bridge handle editing?
06:38:55 <andythenorth> maybe it doesn't
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07:13:53 <dP> a random thought: industry placement step of map generation can probably be easily multithreaded
07:14:52 <dP> mt placement checks and do actual placement in one thread, should still have low failure rate
07:18:41 <andythenorth> is that MP safe?
07:18:49 <andythenorth> might be stupid question
07:18:57 <dP> ofc, map generation is always safe
07:26:07 <dP> great, more spam in the server list :/
07:43:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think industries in awkward places on a hill would be fun to serve :p
07:43:29 <FLHerne> just reduce the production quantities a bit to make it more feasible
07:43:52 <FLHerne> road shuttle or fun twisty branchline
07:49:37 <andythenorth> uuf, injecting relative offsets for sublayouts is hard
07:49:55 <andythenorth> hard / tedious /s
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08:39:34 <andythenorth> switch (FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES, SELF, industry_foo, relative_pos) {
08:39:34 <andythenorth> relative_coord(4, 5): [STORE_TEMP(0, 0), STORE_TEMP(0, 1)];
08:39:39 <andythenorth> I didn't know that could be done
08:40:03 <andythenorth> in nfo terms, I guess it obviously works 😛
08:40:16 <andythenorth> didn't know nmlc could expand it all though
08:43:59 <peter1138> Why is it so complicated?
08:44:04 <peter1138> Can't we just gameplay?
08:56:28 <andythenorth> this is the metagame 😛
08:56:56 <andythenorth> it's probably less fun if it's your day job
08:57:02 <andythenorth> see also: why I won't do the website css 😛
08:58:06 <peter1138> I wish my day job was programming OpenTTD ;D
08:59:08 <LordAro> that's another "CS made it so", i think?
09:01:16 <peter1138> Different climates are actually a difficulty level.
09:01:32 <LordAro> not just a "engines have an expiry date, wagons don't" thing
09:14:29 <peter1138> I should probably delete this old code from my old employer that no longer exists...
09:15:04 <peter1138> First commit in svn 2006, last commit in git 2019.
09:15:22 <peter1138> All still there, for posterity.
09:46:14 <andythenorth> meh, this height check within a sublayout is too ... hard 🙂
09:46:21 * andythenorth commits it to a spare branch
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09:47:01 <andythenorth> I'm sure it could be made to work, but eh 😛
09:49:03 <andythenorth> I have NFI what's supported inside the placement check in terms of temp registers, vars etc
09:49:11 <andythenorth> can't be arsed to read it all 🙂
10:06:59 <andythenorth> these stupid split layouts 😄
10:07:05 <andythenorth> are almost impossible for player to build
10:08:36 <andythenorth> but only in certain areas of the map 😛
10:08:46 * andythenorth must have errors in checks somewhere :P
10:29:36 <dP> I don't really understand the point of split layouts
10:31:04 <peter1138> Hmm, VS Code's 3-way merge editor seems a bit crap.
10:36:22 <glx[d]> andythenorth: Seems nml doc is not fully correct about the return of `relative_coord()`
10:37:28 <glx[d]> I guess it's `00yxYYXX` like var43
10:43:24 <andythenorth> dP: Nothing to do with realism, it’s for station coverage
10:43:24 <andythenorth> Increases relative area for placing stations/track
10:43:41 <andythenorth> It’s so broken in game though, might have to abandon
10:45:24 <andythenorth> The amount of flat are needed is now huge
10:46:29 <andythenorth> And the offset between nominal north tile and actual industry tiles can be large, which is unintuitive when trying to build industries
10:51:56 <andythenorth> Lol every time I try fancy layouts I end up deleting them and putting classic TTD 5x5 style rectangles back in
10:53:03 <dP> andythenorth: lol, would've never guessed xD
10:54:43 <andythenorth> There are only 4 sides to an industry 😝
10:54:58 <dP> imo station spreading solves it pretty well
10:54:58 <andythenorth> So if 3 or 4 pickup stations are needed
10:55:37 <andythenorth> Station distant-tile walking solves it
10:56:08 <andythenorth> But I often mess up and delete the wrong stations :p
10:56:08 <dP> distant join, whatever you call it
10:58:48 <dP> in cmclient I have highlights that kinda help to navigate the station mess
10:59:19 <dP> ugh, my printscreen hotkey messed up the removal mode
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11:13:51 <dP> I'm not entirely happy with how they work rn but it definitely feels like a right way to go
11:15:35 <dP> yeah, it's actually a station joining highlight so if it's locked on one station it won't switch to another even in removal mode
11:15:40 <dP> definitely need to change that
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11:22:15 * andythenorth wondering how to move industry placement point when player funding
11:22:31 <andythenorth> Centred on layout, not N tile
11:23:00 <andythenorth> Or better some walk around 4 centre-ish tiles, or some other jitter
11:23:22 <dP> I don't think you can, don't remember the game allowing negative offsets
11:24:03 <andythenorth> This would be a client change
11:24:52 <dP> can even do that in cmclient actually since it can always calculate north tile itself
11:25:16 <dP> I'd just do a center tile and a preview
11:25:27 <dP> jitter would be annoying if you want it in a specific spot
11:27:50 <dP> getting a preview would probably be a pita though
11:37:40 <dP> yeah, it's been around for some time already
12:09:08 <andythenorth> Preview would be preview of the first found valid layout, I guess we’d have to click again to confirm it 😛
12:09:53 <andythenorth> Not sure it’s needed but not against it either 😉
12:10:37 <dP> first found valid layout is what'll be built
12:10:52 <dP> unless something changes on the map ofc
12:14:13 <dP> actually, I can switch layouts on MMB
12:14:27 <andythenorth> Personally I don’t care about really precise placement or layout. But preview might help players with difficult industries like ports
12:18:48 <dP> yeah, precise funding is confusing even with vanilla industries and it gets ridiculous with newgrfs
12:35:46 <dP> ecs mammoth coal mine funding spot
12:36:02 <dP> haven't played ecs for like 10 years but still remember that dumb shitt
12:36:10 <glx[d]> ecs is a pain, tourist centers being the worst
12:36:41 <EmperorJake> Neuschwanstein castle was worth it tho
12:37:06 <glx[d]> yeah but almost impossible to get
12:38:11 <dP> luukland servers had a quest just to build one xD
12:43:05 <dP> hmm... I remember porting iron-horse to grf-py before the trip... now to remember why 😅
12:44:14 <dP> This branch is 11 commits ahead, 227 commits behind andythenorth:master.
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13:49:52 <Wolf01> \o/ steam deck arrived
13:50:27 <Wolf01> Of course I'll install OpenTTD
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14:32:43 <Wolf01> Ok, the game works quite well, the mouse is too sensitive, no music, it might need a massive control rebind as except the directional cross which must be bound to the directional keys all other buttons trigger a keystroke
14:33:49 <Wolf01> So with left stick you open toolbars etc, the right stick/pad controls the mouse
14:34:09 <Wolf01> Needs a radial menu :D
14:38:08 <Wolf01> Oh yes, really better now (custom controls)
15:25:50 * andythenorth tries finding tile heights again
15:38:24 <LordAro> Wolf01: sounds like the android ui is needed :p
15:47:41 <Wolf01> Yup, but at least the custom controller layout made by someone seem to work well, I might need to customize it further for my needs
16:00:51 <andythenorth> nearby_tile_height maximum offset is 9
16:31:29 <andythenorth> quite happy with how these look in game
16:31:41 <andythenorth> minimap looks stupid though
16:31:46 <andythenorth> such andythenorth problems
16:43:23 <peter1138> Some kinda miracle, brakes now stop and don't squeal :D
17:10:30 <andythenorth> nah these outpost layouts have to go
17:11:14 <andythenorth> time unbreak my savegame by replacing all the industries again
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17:16:18 <andythenorth> better than the split one above?
17:27:41 <FLHerne> I like the split one better :p
17:28:02 <FLHerne> the minimap always looks stupid
17:30:03 <andythenorth> what's the appeal of the split one?
17:30:28 <andythenorth> I'm curious to try and make an idea work, but the 'debit' column outweighs the 'credit' column for these so far
17:30:50 <andythenorth> I was happier when it was just a small outpost
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17:45:48 <andythenorth> lots of gaps in existing FIRS industries
17:45:58 <andythenorth> I guess they're OK because they're smaller?
17:46:09 <andythenorth> 1 tile, not several
17:50:27 <andythenorth> smaller gaps less weird
17:53:08 <dP> split industry just appears to be separate industtries
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17:53:49 <Brickblock1> I think people would get used to it and under stand it is only one
17:54:27 <andythenorth> ok debit column:
17:54:27 <andythenorth> 1) limits industry placement as requires a large flat area
17:54:27 <andythenorth> 2) looks terrible on minimap
17:54:27 <andythenorth> 3) makes it weird AF for players placing industries, as the North tile can be very far from the actual industry tiles
17:55:33 <andythenorth> 1) more flexible station building (in the specific case where you don't want to use distant-join stations or build one huge connected station)
17:55:33 <andythenorth> 2) subjectively, produces more interesting visuals when vehicles move through the industry, not just around it
17:56:06 <andythenorth> a long time ago there was an idea of allowing industries to place 'fields'
17:56:42 <andythenorth> frosch patched it 😛
17:57:17 <andythenorth> tiles that 'belong' to an industry, but can be overbuilt by player
17:59:02 <andythenorth> separately FIRS Steeltown really can't be used on 512x512 mountainous very rough maps with zero variety distribution and high water
17:59:10 <andythenorth> not sure whether to delete it or not
17:59:24 <andythenorth> I've generated a few hundred maps now, it's quite convincingly broken
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18:24:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: it just looks nice :p
18:25:52 <FLHerne> real steelworks usually seem to have multiple dense complexes (around each blast furnace, etc.) separated by a lot of wasteland and transport/storage infrastructure
18:26:17 <FLHerne> looks a bit weird in your screenshot in the middle of woodland unconnected to anything
18:26:27 <FLHerne> but all industries do
18:26:37 <andythenorth> I can address 1 of the issues so far
18:26:59 <FLHerne> with a station and a load of NewObjects filling it in it'll look cool
18:26:59 <andythenorth> I can ban layouts where the nominal north tile (0, 0) is a long way from any actual industry tiles
18:27:27 <FLHerne> does FIRS use flag > The industry is always built near towns (i.e. near town sign; additionally the industry is allowed to replace houses) (toy shop)
18:27:36 <FLHerne> for the industries that have to be near towns?
18:27:42 <FLHerne> or is it all custom switch checks
18:27:54 <andythenorth> no the near towns check is not useful enough
18:27:59 <FLHerne> [unrelated question, I was just reading the page]
18:28:11 <andythenorth> town industries might use the replace house flag
18:28:34 <andythenorth> FIRS uses a giant circular tile search that is 99% definitely broken
18:28:43 <andythenorth> ok some layout revisions
18:29:02 <andythenorth> this is less flexible as it can only have a station built one way through it
18:29:23 <andythenorth> doesn't look so stupid on minimap
18:30:44 <andythenorth> ok I continue with this
18:30:58 <andythenorth> perhaps the 'Steeltown is broken' issue is separate
18:31:21 <andythenorth> it requires 4 or 5 specific map gen settings to really reliably break it
18:31:41 <andythenorth> and is broken irrespective of the gaps
18:31:54 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop testing with those settings, as it 's distracting 😛
18:35:03 <Brickblock1> would it be possible to make the forest industry way larger without affecting spawning?
18:35:41 <andythenorth> any question about 'larger' is followed by 'may not spawn'
18:36:14 <Brickblock1> but it does work on hills does it not
18:36:22 <andythenorth> FIRS forest can build on slopes, so it would stand a better chance yes
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18:57:28 * FLHerne flinches at the 1-tile corner radii ;-)
18:57:38 <FLHerne> at least they're not 90° turns
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19:01:28 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:26:10 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: over buildable fields a la locomotion is probably best for 'split' industries
19:27:29 <supermop_toil> where the whole industry 'property' is bounded by fenced land that can be build over by player, but leaves the industry looking somewhat cohesive
19:28:39 <supermop_toil> some industries might look decent completely disconnected
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19:47:01 <andythenorth> NewExtendedFences :p
19:47:42 <andythenorth> Gameplay though? :p
19:48:04 <supermop_toil> idk if there is any actual gameplay in the game
19:48:40 <glx[d]> isn't there one gameplay per player ?
19:49:07 <supermop_toil> everything is kinda pointless, apart from the small joy of watching little things move around
19:49:22 <andythenorth> 25000 different metas
19:49:41 <glx[d]> and whatever you do, you'll get complains
19:50:18 <andythenorth> Today the main openttd channel in discord…I literally don’t understand, but it’s all still the game 😀
19:50:35 <supermop_toil> although i would be particularly interested to see what the complaints are about adding richer fences
19:51:10 <andythenorth> Some people don’t like the FIRS ones
19:51:15 <glx[d]> with how the game works, you can be sure fences will be broken
19:51:41 <andythenorth> GS could place fences
19:52:16 <andythenorth> Related: seems some objects can be overbuilt with tracks?
19:53:27 <Brickblock1> Yes there is a flag that makes them work like bought land
19:56:40 <andythenorth> Ok so if objects can be overbuilt this is just a GS issue
19:56:55 <andythenorth> Placing objects around industries
20:00:52 <supermop_toil> objects that trees can grow on?
20:01:04 <supermop_toil> land owned by non-players?
20:02:16 <andythenorth> No multi GS patch needed
20:02:30 <andythenorth> GS could be redesigned to be cooperative
20:02:41 <andythenorth> Without spec change
20:03:00 <andythenorth> GS already has library modules
20:03:09 <andythenorth> Put the behaviour in libraries
20:03:36 <andythenorth> Define which events should be bubbled for each library
20:03:56 <andythenorth> Just needs someone to bother 🙃
20:04:21 <TallTyler> You can’t libraries without a parent script, can you?
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20:09:03 <andythenorth> it needs a parent script
20:09:37 <andythenorth> all the library modules will be known on bananas yes?
20:10:04 <andythenorth> and we could expose their interface
20:10:22 <andythenorth> so then a web-based TrueGS could compose a custom script
20:10:33 <andythenorth> it might explode, but that's inherent to content
20:10:44 <andythenorth> we just need to clone TrueBrain again
20:10:51 <frosch> when gs was launches, we expected there would be "patchpacks" combining multiple gs. but it never really happened
20:10:57 <andythenorth> I have considered it
20:11:05 <andythenorth> if I had a spare andythenorth
20:11:26 <andythenorth> dP: wrote the pylons placer, which I want to revisit and release as a module
20:11:38 <andythenorth> the problem I have with GS is that it is programming
20:11:44 <andythenorth> and I can't really program
20:16:10 <andythenorth> frosch: unrelated to Doom gif
20:16:25 <andythenorth> might we give the industry random placer pre-filtered list of tiles?
20:16:43 <andythenorth> using predicates or sets defined in advance
20:16:49 <andythenorth> e.g. 'tiles near an industry of type X'
20:19:52 <frosch> i don't see the benefit over using the location callback
20:20:21 <frosch> i see a benefit in improving the landscaping effort for making placing industries more likely in a specific position
20:20:43 <andythenorth> +1 to that as a separate thing
20:20:52 <frosch> but any industry-distance or sea-distance checks are probably not going to be faster whether issued by callback or other hard coding
20:21:15 <andythenorth> how many times does the industry placer select random tiles?
20:22:31 <andythenorth> no that's prospecting
20:23:16 <andythenorth> I am not following how the game places a non-prospecting industry at a random location 😮
20:24:58 <andythenorth> CmdBuildIndustry gets a tile passed to it?
20:25:18 <frosch> cmdbuildindustry is player action
20:26:46 <frosch> PlaceIndustry() is the random one
20:27:31 <frosch> i wonder whether we can create a histogram about placement failures
20:27:59 <frosch> are there distinct "returns" in the callback for different failure reasons?
20:28:57 <andythenorth> can't remember how that interacts with the tile check
20:29:07 <frosch> cb28 is the important one
20:29:19 <frosch> the tile check will always be expensive, because it checks N tiles 🙂
20:29:29 <andythenorth> spec says 2F has the same returns
20:29:36 <andythenorth> FIRS is very 2F dependent
20:29:41 <frosch> anyway, i meant: does firs return distinct error strings in cb28?
20:30:16 <andythenorth> all just CB_RESULT_LOCATION_DISALLOW
20:30:54 <frosch> is that easy to change, so we can record how often which problem is returned?
20:31:15 <frosch> also, do you do anythiing in 2F that should be done in 28?
20:31:29 <andythenorth> yes it's easy to change, it's not a 5 min thing now, but it's not hard
20:31:36 <andythenorth> mostly just have to add a bunch of lang strings
20:31:41 <andythenorth> and not mix them up
20:37:12 <andythenorth> so on a 512 x 512 map
20:37:21 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unsupported operand type(s) for ^: 'float' and 'float'
20:37:27 <frosch> yes, the dhcp server still works
20:37:33 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 262144
20:38:18 <frosch> we can probably extend the layouts with a "empty land" and "empty land or water" check in addition to the existing "empty water" check
20:38:49 <andythenorth> @calc 3.14 * 72 * 72
20:38:49 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 16277.76
20:39:02 <frosch> oh, you skip certain checks for player-built industries...
20:39:17 <frosch> that would not work for any ottd-internal checks 🙂
20:39:51 <andythenorth> ok so in an example case, about 48k tiles out of 262k might valid when checking for 'within 72 tiles of industry type x'
20:40:00 <andythenorth> and we roll the dice 2000 times
20:40:40 <andythenorth> so maybe not worth pre-filtering candidate tiles to select randomly from?
20:41:11 <andythenorth> dunno if I did "pi r^2 " correctly 😛
20:42:05 <andythenorth> ok a histogram might be interesting
20:42:20 <andythenorth> the pathological FIRS case I have is a lot less pathological when sea is 'very low'
20:43:14 <andythenorth> if there was no sea, it's about 1 in 5 chance of coming up with a tile within 72 tiles of industry type X
20:44:19 <andythenorth> with sea at 'high' about half the tiles seem to be sea
20:44:35 <andythenorth> that's maths I can't do 😛
20:45:46 <andythenorth> also random could just keep producing the same tile over and over?
20:49:21 <frosch> measuring is better than guessing 🙂
20:49:48 <glx[d]> depends on the measuring method
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20:50:36 <andythenorth> I'll make a branch and put strings in
20:50:53 <andythenorth> if they don't have to be used by the general playerbase it's not hard 🙂
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21:30:41 <FLHerne> what controls whether the industry placer levels land for an industry?
21:30:52 <FLHerne> or does that work only for default ones
21:35:53 <andythenorth> I suspect it's CheckIfCanLevelIndustryPlatform
21:36:21 <andythenorth> can't be used in combination with custom_shape_check
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22:53:19 <FLHerne> Yeah, that's quite nice
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