IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-07-17
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06:19:43 <TrueBrain> 50 tickets left for another cake!
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15:19:06 <andythenorth> it's intended that railtypes 'compatible' is only determined for lead vehicle, yes?
15:35:43 <frosch123> lead of articulated vehicle? possible
15:35:47 <frosch123> front engine of train? no
15:39:27 <andythenorth> is compatibility ever resolved for wagons (unpowered vehicles)?
15:39:34 * andythenorth could just read src probably :P
15:40:13 <frosch123> compatibility should affect train attachment
15:40:20 <frosch123> poweredness should affect purchase list
15:40:40 <andythenorth> there is a one way compatibility in effect in the test case
15:40:57 <frosch123> compatibility is mostly useless, some theoretical concept noone would have invented, if forum people weren't like they are
15:41:04 <frosch123> poweredness is the important thing
15:41:10 <andythenorth> I read the thread :P
15:41:34 <andythenorth> I have created a 'high clearance' railtype
15:42:06 <andythenorth> RAIL vehicles can traverse high clearance
15:42:07 <frosch123> how does it affect game play?
15:42:21 <andythenorth> high clearance vehicles are intended to not traverse RAIL
15:42:46 <andythenorth> it's just an arbitrary gameplay constraint
15:42:50 <frosch123> i guess my unwritten blog recommends: leave role playing to the players, keep it out of newgrf
15:42:52 <andythenorth> to trade off against electrifying
15:43:12 <andythenorth> it's a choose-your-own-adventure type role play: take the red pill or the blue
15:43:33 <andythenorth> I am quite happy to abandon it, I am just curious what's supposed to happen
15:43:44 <andythenorth> the same issue arises with narrow gauge wagons on RAIL
15:43:59 <frosch123> well, treat it like a different type of power then
15:44:06 <frosch123> diesel engines will be able to run on it
15:44:11 <frosch123> normal electic won't
15:44:20 <frosch123> your special ones will
15:44:27 <andythenorth> that already works
15:44:35 <andythenorth> the issue is that high clearance trains traverse rail
15:44:40 <andythenorth> if they're not the leading vehicle in a consist
15:44:51 <andythenorth> compatibility is only determined for leading engine
15:44:55 <glx> to mix a DC+AC engines you use a diesel to shunt ?
15:45:30 <frosch123> that behavior is correct for poweredness: elecric engines may be pulled on normal track
15:45:36 <andythenorth> I wonder if I should update the wiki
15:45:51 <frosch123> i think something enforces compatibility to be a superset of poweredness
15:45:58 <andythenorth> we already have a 'dual gauge' grf out there that 'breaks' narrow gauge trains
15:49:05 <andythenorth> so only determined for engines
15:50:09 <andythenorth> so all compatible_railtypes does is prevent the train driving onto railtypes where it would be unpowered (and get stuck)?
15:50:48 <glx> I think it's assumed that if it can attach, it can run, but might be unpowered
15:51:58 <glx> works fine for electric vs diesel, different story for gauges
15:52:36 <frosch123> that function ORs compatiblity, shouldn't it AND?
15:53:10 <frosch123> ah, no, it only computed poweredness
15:54:01 <andythenorth> wiki should have a note, 'wagons are compatible with all railtypes' or similar?
15:54:36 <andythenorth> no it's more complicated
15:55:26 <andythenorth> "wagons are compatible with *all* railtypes when travelling, but will only be shown in 'new vehicles' menu for depots matching their compatible track type"
15:56:30 <frosch123> compatible_railtypes is used about nowhere :p
15:56:45 <frosch123> maybe compatible_railtypes is mostly not implemented?
15:56:59 <andythenorth> I suspect it's used in depot buy list
15:58:26 <andythenorth> !v->IsFrontEngine()
15:58:38 <andythenorth> is this an optimisation?
15:59:01 <glx> it's to prevent running trains to enter in incompatible tracks
15:59:19 <glx> like a monorail/maglev junction
16:00:19 <glx> but allows RAIL engine to enter ELRL track
16:02:37 * andythenorth reading IsEngineBuildable
16:02:47 <andythenorth> wagons are also engines, but with power 0 yes/no?
16:04:40 <glx> yes, prop 0B is 0 for a wagon
16:05:25 <andythenorth> ok so compatible_railtypes is used for building / autoreplace
16:05:45 <andythenorth> and a few custom cases for ELRL to provide legacy support
16:06:06 <andythenorth> and in the pathfinders
16:06:40 <andythenorth> are the pathfinders why it can only be checked for lead engine?
16:06:45 <andythenorth> otherwise too slow?
16:07:12 <frosch123> you have to check it for the front engine, otherwise the train would fall apart
16:07:21 <frosch123> however, you could cache the AND result in the front-engine cache
16:07:26 <frosch123> and use that for testing
16:07:40 <frosch123> it's done for powerness, but not for compatibleness
16:08:24 <frosch123> i.e. it's correct that CheckCompatibleRail only checks for IsFrontEngine
16:08:42 <frosch123> but it's wrong that it checks using v->compatible_Railtypes, instead of something else
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16:09:36 <frosch123> i guess you can fix it by changing ConsistChanged
16:10:37 <frosch123> compatible_railtypes should be the intersection of all individual compatibilitities, intersected with the union of all powernesses
16:10:56 <frosch123> that way the train only runs on track, which are compatible with all parts, and at least one engine is powered
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17:00:14 <TrueBrain> my DHCP server is broken, so there was no other way :P
17:01:33 <TrueBrain> and tell them the secret numbers I am looking up? Sjees
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18:01:38 <andythenorth> oops, fell asleep
18:14:49 <andythenorth> hmm there might be a funny Horse edge case I should test
18:15:15 <andythenorth> there are driving cab cars which have a small amount of power so they can lead the train (track type is RAIL)
18:15:29 <andythenorth> then an ELRL loco is attached to rear end of train
18:15:42 <andythenorth> probably they will drive on non ELRL tracks currently, but really slowly
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19:57:38 <frosch123> maybe that fixes it
19:57:48 <frosch123> if it does, someone needs to figure out PBS
19:58:08 <frosch123> PBS does some other magic with railtypes, when checking reservations
20:01:56 <andythenorth> I should test it
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20:08:25 <frosch123> i only checked compilation, it may crash on start :)
20:08:57 <andythenorth> haven't thought of any interesting edge cases to test yet
20:09:11 <andythenorth> the trivial cases work as expected now
20:11:46 <andythenorth> the 'stopping' case remains present, when consist with AC engine + DC engine crosses from AC to DC or vice versa
20:11:58 <andythenorth> I saw the code for that is elsewhere though
20:12:48 <frosch123> what is the stopping case?
20:14:34 <andythenorth> engine 1 is powered on A, engine 2 is powered on B
20:14:48 <andythenorth> briefly whilst crossing the gap, the consist becomes unpowered
20:14:55 <andythenorth> the player can then restart it
20:15:10 <andythenorth> glx found the line
20:15:17 <frosch123> i guess if it has enough speed it could make it
20:15:33 <andythenorth> otherwise it will stop anyway
20:15:34 <frosch123> but in the end i don't know what to do if it stops for other reason
20:16:08 <andythenorth> if power is 0, won't it just come to a halt anyway?
20:16:17 <glx> no power so stopping, but with momentum it gets power again and can be restarted manually
20:16:22 <andythenorth> maybe stopping helps the player find it
20:16:56 <glx> stop is not instant except on signal or blocked
20:29:48 <andythenorth> I could adjust power by railtype, and use the user bits :P
20:29:56 <andythenorth> to provide a small amount of coasting behaviour
20:30:18 <andythenorth> can I fit a game date into user bits? :P
20:31:01 <andythenorth> also power by railtype is surely cached? :P
20:31:25 <glx> power is cached on consist change
20:32:06 <frosch123> i guess ottd should supply some minimal recover power, if power is 0 otherwise
20:32:11 <frosch123> then we can disable the stopping
20:32:33 <frosch123> if the train has enough momentum, it will rush through
20:32:40 <frosch123> otherwise slowly crawl until it is repowered
20:32:56 <andythenorth> don't we do that on hills already?
20:33:05 <andythenorth> I read the code once, I remember some minimal hill speed
20:33:06 <frosch123> yes, something like that
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21:28:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I expect images of that
21:28:53 <TrueBrain> 1hp .. that are a lot of pax ;)
21:33:18 <frosch123> not sure whether there are train versions of "car stuck girls"
21:33:19 <TrueBrain> "Ladies and gentlemen, as you might have noticed we came to a complete stop as our manager is incompetent. Please get out and start pushing"
21:34:30 <andythenorth> there is probably a thomas the tank engine episode for it
21:34:36 <glx> luckily it should not require too much power to move steel wheel on steel
21:35:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: btw. of course i did not check, whether the vehicle actually moves with 1hp
21:35:13 <frosch123> i just assume that the uphill-min thing kicks in
21:35:43 <frosch123> though that may only exist for realistic acceleration
21:35:51 <frosch123> no idea how original acceleration does it
21:42:42 <andythenorth> can't find a trigger for it
21:42:59 <andythenorth> other than by changing grfs
21:43:11 <andythenorth> the transition across 2 railtypes now works fine, no stopping
21:43:53 <frosch123> can you manual stop it and restart it?
21:48:56 <andythenorth> oh manual stopping takes very long time :)
21:50:12 <andythenorth> it basically works fine
21:50:20 <andythenorth> if I had Twitch I could stream it :P
21:51:42 <andythenorth> the braking / deceleration rate seems off
21:51:53 <frosch123> ah, "stream"... do we have any plans for 20-years-of-newgrf next month?
21:52:09 <andythenorth> but streams are fun
21:52:20 <andythenorth> there are some very early grfs to see
21:52:25 <andythenorth> was NewShips the first?
21:52:44 <frosch123> maybe, but probably noone has the first version of it
21:52:58 <frosch123> also, noone likes mb :p
21:57:22 <frosch123> that's a "we do not want newgrf thread" :)
21:57:29 <andythenorth> "meh I have no interest of discussing things with you Dalestan, I find your tone offensive and your reasoning annoying."
21:57:47 <frosch123> but it never hurts to highlight TrueBrain and glx with "GPMI" :)
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22:02:16 <andythenorth> eh also, bedtime :P
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