IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-05-31
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00:01:51 <wallabra> I still wanna be able to plant trees on diagonal areas ;-;
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07:24:58 <TrueBrain> is it that time of the year again dihedral ? :P
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08:05:50 <TrueBrain> I am trying to locate a text version of CC BY 4.0 on the creativecommons website
08:06:25 <TrueBrain> but isn't that one of the more important things to make clearly available? I mean ... wuth? :P
08:06:44 <TrueBrain> adding .txt to the URL helps
08:20:10 <TrueBrain> lol, seems GitHub doesn't even recognize CC BY-NC or CC BY-ND licenses .. at least, I fail to find any :P
08:23:13 <TrueBrain> indeed, repositories that are licensed under CC BY NC SA, are just shown as "Unknown license" :D
08:42:09 <TrueBrain> funny how limited GitHub actually is when it comes to licenses .. they really nudge you in a certain direction
08:57:20 <TrueBrain> okay ... pretty complex, licenses part of TrueGRF, but I think I have something that should help everyone picking the right license and not violate other people's license :P
09:15:32 <TrueBrain> I wonder if you can change the license of a CC-BY-NC to CC-BY
09:15:44 <TrueBrain> licenses without SA are just weird :P
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09:19:45 <peter1138> Bloody execution plans
09:25:46 <TrueBrain> ~400 lines of code to have a license selection thing in TrueGRF .. joy :P
09:26:36 <peter1138> Pfft, just choose a license for them.
09:26:44 <TrueBrain> basically what I did
09:26:46 <TrueBrain> with 4 simple questions :P
09:27:14 <TrueBrain> I went with the CC .. giving them options to be non-commercial
10:01:17 <Samu> i have a commit that replaces it, but I need help how to describe it
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10:52:32 <peter1138> When a query times out unless you put hash in your joins... :/
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12:13:49 <LordAro> i am currently trying to debug a native library that's crashing/segfaulting when called from java
12:18:32 <LordAro> it's not normally this much unfun
12:47:40 <Samu> weird manipulation of company purchase costs
12:48:29 <Samu> a company is bankrupting and goes on offer for £1
12:48:40 <Samu> i have 75% shares of that company
12:48:52 <Samu> i have now 2 ways to buy it
12:49:16 <Samu> i purchase 25% shares, making it 100%
12:49:33 <Samu> or buy it from the bankrupt offer screen for £1
12:51:20 <Samu> if i buy from the offer screen, the 75% shares are also sold
12:51:38 <Samu> but if i buy it by getting 100% shares, the shares are not sold
13:03:14 <Samu> hard to tell with the screenshot, but im currently playing as company 4
13:03:43 <Samu> and on regression company, i can sell the 25% shares i have on it, even though it doesn't list my company
13:08:43 <LordAro> i wouldn't be opposed to a PR that removed shares entirely
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13:16:21 <TrueBrain> I see you found the drama-PR of 13.0? :D
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13:34:01 <Samu> dunno whether to make a new PR fixing company gui or add a commit to #9901
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13:54:13 <peter1138> Gotta love electricity prices, power costs for our colo nearly doubled...
13:57:22 <LordAro> peter1138: are you mining on it?
13:57:38 <glx> but how is it possible for a company to not own at least 25% of its shares ?
13:58:18 <TrueBrain> glx: I was thinking the same :D Sounds like this is actually a bug in another place :P
13:58:39 <TrueBrain> having a company of which you own no shares at all yourself sounds like a bug :D
14:00:03 <glx> display issue is a symptom, not a solution
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14:03:03 <TrueBrain> at least it is not limited to AIs in that sense :P
14:03:26 <TrueBrain> as in, humans can buy 100% of AIs too
14:03:30 <TrueBrain> with different companies, ofc
14:03:40 <TrueBrain> but you can't buy 100% shares of a human company
14:03:55 <TrueBrain> bit weird and inconsistent :)
14:04:08 <glx> but when you buy 100% it ends in a merge
14:04:15 <TrueBrain> no, I made 2 human companies
14:04:24 <TrueBrain> and I could buy 100% between the two human companies
14:04:36 <TrueBrain> but I couldn't do the same for the human companies
14:05:32 <LordAro> feels like it might have been intentional at some point
14:05:49 <glx> yes it comes from the fact you can buy 100% of an AI to absorb it
14:06:14 <TrueBrain> I still vote to remove shares completely :D
14:06:37 <glx> but AIs were a SP mode only at that time
14:08:50 <glx> so I think there should be at most 3 external owners, and if one of them buy the last 25% it merges it
14:10:18 <TrueBrain> but merge into who, if they all have 25%? :)
14:10:55 <glx> max 3 owners, so one has more than the other if all shares are sold
14:11:40 <glx> and on merge shares are sold back IIRC
14:13:14 <Samu> what if there's 2 owners and both get 50%
14:14:07 <glx> extra checks required to not allow that :)
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14:15:05 <glx> selling last 25% should only end up in a merge
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14:15:20 <glx> if it doesn't it's rejected
14:15:56 <andythenorth> I have had the most beautiful bad idea ever
14:17:18 <Samu> sounds to me it's easier to just limit to 75% cap
14:17:52 <glx> so treat AIs like humans ?
14:18:10 <andythenorth> so I had the idea a long time ago of letting autoreplace do basic maths
14:18:10 <glx> maybe for network games only then
14:18:21 <andythenorth> so we could say "replace vehicle A with 2 of vehicle B"
14:18:36 <andythenorth> or "replace 2 vehicle A with 1 vehicle B"
14:18:43 <andythenorth> but then I thought...
14:18:48 <andythenorth> we could let it have regex!
14:19:22 <glx> autoreplace templates would be simpler :)
14:19:46 <peter1138> LordAro, nope, still the same consumption, just this "cost of living" bullshit...
14:20:06 <andythenorth> you had 1 problem, you used regex, now you have an unknown number of problems, in fragments
14:21:00 <peter1138> Maybe "the cloud" will be more cost effective now.
14:21:17 <glx> thanks to government electricity prices raise is limited
14:21:30 <Samu> funny, i had something from 3 years ago about this
14:21:47 <glx> but gaz jumped from 1500€ a year to 2600€
14:22:59 <glx> kWh price doubled 6 months ago
14:29:58 <peter1138> glx, yeah, I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to rise.
14:30:49 <peter1138> But the bean-counters are like "this is higher than normal, fix it", of course.
14:56:07 <Samu> i think i managed to do what u told me glx
15:10:02 <TrueBrain> grrr, I constantly get TrueGRF in a bad state, synchronization wise to GitHub .. especially with renaming of files
15:10:03 <TrueBrain> that is annoying :P
15:12:52 <TrueBrain> finally! There the bug was hiding ... :D
15:14:41 <TrueBrain> there, now you can commit all your pending changes to the "main" branch, with a commit message of your own :D
15:14:52 <TrueBrain> with clear indications what is going on .. at least, I hope so :P
15:15:25 <TrueBrain> oops .. removing of stuff fails :D
15:16:52 <Samu> if i have 50% shares, and someone else has 25% shares, am i allowed to buy the last 25% shares and thus the company since I have the majority of shares?
15:17:46 <TrueBrain> that is how shares kinda work
15:25:41 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: https://dev.truegrf.pages.dev/ <- tell me what you think of creating a new project like this, license wise .. try both FIRS and Scratch :D (you don't actually have to make a project)
15:25:46 <TrueBrain> hmm .. "scratch" , still a bad name
15:26:04 <andythenorth> like my mind often is
15:26:12 <TrueBrain> that is a good name
15:27:48 <TrueBrain> lol .. the GitHub interface has the "Commit changes" button greyed out
15:27:51 <TrueBrain> but gives no indication why
15:27:53 <TrueBrain> and I hav eno clue :P
15:28:10 <andythenorth> I never figured out if I can incorporate some CC works into GPL projects :P
15:28:24 <andythenorth> GPL is more restrictive and less free than some CC
15:29:32 <TrueBrain> but I think this license approach is better than what BaNaNaS currently has
15:29:49 <andythenorth> FYI there was an initial delay while creating my new project
15:29:57 <TrueBrain> yeah, I need to add loaders
15:29:57 <andythenorth> before the fancy spinny wheels displayed :)
15:29:59 <TrueBrain> I already added some
15:30:03 <andythenorth> I waited a few seconds
15:30:08 <andythenorth> unusual display of patience
15:30:11 <TrueBrain> smart .. otherwise things went a bit bad :P
15:30:14 <andythenorth> seems I trust you :P
15:30:26 <andythenorth> usually I hit refresh after counting to 3
15:30:28 <glx> wait more and don't click on anything while waiting :)
15:30:47 <TrueBrain> I appreciate the waiting ;) I will add a loading indicator :)
15:31:28 <TrueBrain> let me know if you find more of these things
15:31:31 <TrueBrain> all feedback is very welcome :)
15:33:01 <TrueBrain> right, tomorrow more fixing bugs and making the UI experience a bit more smooth :) Now, food :)
15:35:29 <Rubidium> glx: about owning not part of own your shares... the SNCF is 100% owned by French state. The company I work in is owned in 50% by one company and 50% by another company
15:35:50 <TrueBrain> the first is rather unfair :P
15:35:57 <TrueBrain> always exceptions to the rules :D
15:40:48 <Rubidium> I think it might even be an exception that a company is owned by itself
15:41:41 <Rubidium> Google -> owned by Alphabet, bol.com -> owned by Ahold, KLM -> owned by AF-KLM
15:41:55 <TrueBrain> it is a different kind of ownership :)
15:42:08 <TrueBrain> they don't take over the company :P
15:42:15 <Rubidium> no, it's exactly the same ;)
15:42:58 <Rubidium> except that they keep the original entity as it were, whereas in OpenTTD the choice has been made to merge them into one. Mostly because it used to be for AIs and managing two companies is just a PITA
15:43:11 <TrueBrain> so .. not exactly the same after all :P
15:44:05 <Rubidium> all the cases I mentioned, the company itself owned 0% of itself
15:44:56 <Rubidium> any joint venture is basically by construct not owning anything of itself, but it is rather being owned by a non-empty set of other companies
15:45:28 <Rubidium> so, a company in OpenTTD being owned by 4 companies seems well within bounds
15:46:37 <TrueBrain> just for the minor detail that OpenTTD runs on a hostile takeover program :P
15:47:41 <Rubidium> if only one company buys all the shares, which someone could do in real life as well
15:48:22 <TrueBrain> but the next thing I expect is someone to add MoRe ReAlIsM in the shares, and allow your company to be private
15:48:29 <TrueBrain> and have actual shares
15:48:37 <TrueBrain> and allow for more fine-grained buying of them
15:48:41 <TrueBrain> and have board meetings
15:48:46 <TrueBrain> that is exactly what OpenTTD needs :D
15:50:04 <TrueBrain> btw, lot of the shares issues could be resolved by changing 25% to 33% .. that way there can never be a 50/50 :)
15:50:06 <Rubidium> private is just that the shares are not publicly traded, though the shares are still there ;)
15:50:20 <TrueBrain> that is not the "just" part about private :P
15:50:35 <TrueBrain> but I expect all the subtle details to end up in OpenTTD
15:50:38 <TrueBrain> just a matter of time
15:55:16 <Rubidium> looks like it's been broken for only 12.5 years ;)
15:55:26 <TrueBrain> Owh owh owh, can we make that if you try to sell shares, someone else actually has to buy them?
15:55:35 <TrueBrain> That would be fun too :D
15:56:10 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: duh, as nobody actually cares about shares and it is a stupid game mechanic :p
15:56:40 <andythenorth> in Railroad Tycoon 3, the stock market was the main and best feature
15:56:53 <andythenorth> it allowed comprehensive stock price manipulation
15:58:37 <Rubidium> andythenorth: less is more, so NoShares ;)
15:58:46 <LordAro> RT was just a stock market simulator that happened to have trains, no?
15:59:12 <andythenorth> you didn't need to run trains, it had a price-based mechanism that would slowly move cargo around the map
15:59:25 <andythenorth> so you could just buy industries and manipulate stock
15:59:44 <andythenorth> Rubidium then we could replace it with NoShares2
16:00:09 <andythenorth> we could improve the absent feature by refactoring nothing to nothing
16:03:44 <TrueBrain> Silliness reached its peak :D w00p
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16:41:35 <Samu> i'm experimenting with the 100% shares idea
16:43:27 <Samu> so i have a company that bought 100% shares of another human company, but it doesn't merge with it
16:44:22 <LordAro> good for gameplay? absolutely not
16:46:55 <glx> human companies are restricted to only 75% available to buy
16:48:21 <glx> btw if it was realistic you would get money from your shares each year :)
16:50:19 <dwfreed> not all shares provide dividends
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16:53:36 <TrueBrain> I still wonder where the money goes of the shares you buy
16:53:46 <TrueBrain> or who pays you the money for the shares you sell
16:54:08 <Samu> got 100% shares, my company value becomes the same as the other company
16:56:32 <dwfreed> your value is dependent on your assets
16:58:25 <dwfreed> Fluntburg has nothing except its shares in AdmiralAI; since it's 100% ownership, then the shares serve to pass the value of AdmiralAI to Fluntburg
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17:01:26 <TrueBrain> there, now creating new projects has a loading indicator :D (well, after the deployment is done :P)
17:01:34 <TrueBrain> I love how easy it now is for me to add stuff like that :)
17:01:57 <TrueBrain> and gitpod is amazing .. lot smoother than GitHub Codespaces, which surprises me
17:04:04 <TrueBrain> owh, if you only change the image, it is not seen as pending change ... that is a bug :D
17:07:45 <andythenorth> soon everyone here can be a grf dev :P
17:07:57 <andythenorth> I can make IndustryKit or something
17:08:03 <andythenorth> just draw components :P
17:09:04 <Samu> AdmiralAI had a weird error
17:09:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you supply the components, they do the rest? :D
17:10:52 <andythenorth> even ... who shall I name here :P ... can make a grf :)
17:11:00 <andythenorth> [insert core dev name here]
17:11:44 <TrueBrain> I have a plan how to add a sprite editor for industry tiles .. but first I need to get this beta out :P
17:11:54 <glx> I think many core dev made a test grf once
17:11:57 <TrueBrain> I am trying to hard to not make any more changes than needed to get to that goal :D
17:12:23 <TrueBrain> glx: okay, we should rephrase: a NewGRF worth publishing on BaNaNaS :D
17:12:46 <andythenorth> frosch has published many grfs :)
17:12:49 <andythenorth> some of my favourites
17:12:53 <glx> nah too much work required, even with tools
17:13:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: but things I would like to do, is make a library of industry callbacks
17:13:19 <TrueBrain> so users can pick what they like most
17:13:37 <andythenorth> oh but maybe frosch grfs aren't on bananas :o
17:13:44 <andythenorth> probably licensing disagreement :P
17:13:51 <TrueBrain> the thing I am debating .. if I should finish on making industries the best it can be, or add train support
17:14:25 <andythenorth> well if you use Iron Horse as a guide...you'll need to spend a week looking at it and just asking 'wtf?'
17:14:30 <andythenorth> then you'll need a week off
17:14:42 <TrueBrain> so the same as I had with FIRS? :P
17:14:52 <TrueBrain> no, that is not true .. FIRS actually really helped understanding what was possible
17:15:05 <andythenorth> the industry spec is generally good and FIRS uses it sensibly
17:15:13 <andythenorth> the train spec is fucking mad, and Iron Horse seeks exploits
17:15:39 <glx> ignore train, jump to stations :)
17:15:40 <andythenorth> the industry spec *appears* to have been designed
17:15:48 <andythenorth> trains appear to have just...emerged
17:15:59 <TrueBrain> either way, I am still debating what to do next ..
17:16:02 <andythenorth> we don't talk about stations glx?
17:16:14 <TrueBrain> main thing is, that I do not think a single GRF should contain both trains and industries
17:16:20 <andythenorth> no it should not
17:16:20 <TrueBrain> so that makes me wonder if that should make two GRFs?
17:16:26 <TrueBrain> or are those 2 projects?
17:16:50 <andythenorth> TrueBrain what's more valuable, user feedback on the app, or you finding more scope / breadth / depth for TrueGRF?
17:16:55 <glx> in theory a grf can implement all features, but nobody will use it
17:17:11 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: both, honestly
17:17:27 <TrueBrain> the issue I have, I see tons of things I can improve for industries .. but I don't know the rest of the NewGRF scope
17:17:35 <TrueBrain> so it might mislead me to a solution that only works for industries
17:17:43 <TrueBrain> and if I knew the other stuff a bit more, that could result in more generic solutions
17:18:32 <TrueBrain> owh well, telly time now
17:19:43 <glx> newgrf spec and generic solutions often don't match
17:20:26 <glx> except maybe action0 handling
17:21:23 <andythenorth> I considered unfiying my grf compile for ships / RVs / trains, but it wouldn't work well
17:21:34 <andythenorth> or the time saved would be drowned in the complexity
17:21:37 <TrueBrain> I made an RPN that is pretty genetic I hope :D
17:21:54 <andythenorth> you could...do ships :P
17:22:06 <andythenorth> the ship spec is a subset and has fewer properties etc
17:22:12 <glx> objects are very similar to industries
17:22:25 <andythenorth> no articulated units, some properties don't exist for ships, etc
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18:49:28 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:19:17 <andythenorth> a Zorg post that seems to be 100% reasonable and contains good ideas
19:19:26 <andythenorth> did I fall into an alternate reality?
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19:49:46 <Samu> build airport seems bugged, according to my research on admiralai crash
19:50:27 <Samu> admiral ai code builds an airport and not adjacent to any other station, it's its own station, but it ended up adjacent to a truck station
19:50:43 <Samu> later on, the ai goes to crash
19:51:06 <Samu> maybe the issue is in openttd itself
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19:55:53 <Samu> I think station_id != ScriptStation::STATION_JOIN_ADJACENT
19:56:21 <glx> often happens with station_id == ScriptStation::STATION_JOIN_ADJACENT ? 0 : 1 constructs
19:58:53 <Samu> admiralai was trying to find a truck engine with steel, but the engine it had for the route was an aircraft
19:59:34 <glx> and I didn't check rail nor road
19:59:47 <Samu> the way it handles station ids is not coded to handle adjacent stations apparently
20:01:18 <glx> the bug is not in the AI, it asked for a new station, not an adjacent one (and of course couldn't handle the result)
20:04:17 <glx> ok rail and road seem correct too
20:26:24 <Samu> just tested, that was it
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20:42:41 <TrueBrain> Not even a regression test change? :D
20:44:42 <glx> too hard to test all types
20:45:13 <glx> and building then removing then rebuilding airport will cause town to be mad :)
20:47:21 <glx> maybe one day "someone" will add regression tests for everyting
20:54:52 <TrueBrain> I would love to meet that someone :D
20:54:58 <Samu> i have an alternative to #9905, which is fixing the bug that was allowing 4 different share owners on AIs.
21:09:26 <Samu> what are the issues about, do you remember
21:13:50 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you might not love to meet them twice
21:13:59 <andythenorth> people who write tests are awesome
21:14:13 <andythenorth> people who write regression tests for everything for free....that's someone weird :)
21:32:50 <wallabra> I usually use simple 2 parallel rail lanes, in opposire directions, to connect places. (And trains 'drive on the right', because that's how you gotta roll!) The thing is, now I want to mix fast EMUs with slow freight trains, and I dunno how to do that without slowing down the EMUs behind the freight trains. Any ideas?
21:33:01 <wallabra> Maybe I use 3 lanes? But then what would that work like?
21:37:10 <wallabra> Also, has train speed on diagonal tracks been fixed? Remember, diag of a unit square = sqrt(2)!
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