IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-04-17
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08:39:30 <TrueBrain> I spend all night wondering if anywhere in the world there are tracks with 50 and 60Hz
08:39:31 <TrueBrain> and how that would work
08:39:51 <TrueBrain> having both 50 and 60Hz in the world was just a terrible mistake that should be corrected :P
08:51:46 <nielsm> right I posted that silly bitfield tracktype idea just before going to bed, so don't know if anyone made opinions on it
08:58:10 <andythenorth> what if we had a third standard, 55Hz?
08:58:14 <andythenorth> as a compromise?
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08:58:21 <andythenorth> then we could make the other 2 legacy standards
09:00:16 <andythenorth> @nielsm interesting proposal :D
09:00:49 <andythenorth> oh this is not discord, again
09:06:21 <TrueBrain> hold your head high and reach the top
09:06:28 <TrueBrain> let the world see what you have got
09:06:31 <TrueBrain> bring it all back to you
09:08:16 <nielsm> one thing I'm wondering, not related to game mechanics or development, is what the construction and maintenance costs of third rail systems are compared to overhead systems
09:33:01 <andythenorth> they don't blow down in the wind
09:33:06 <andythenorth> but they don't like snow and ice
09:33:19 <andythenorth> and they are a staff health and safety nightmare
09:43:32 <michi_cc> Third rail safety does depend on the type of it, the typical british open top rail probably the worst in this regard. Underrunning third rail with covers is probably better in this regard, but also of higher cost.
09:49:38 <andythenorth> I do wonder if we could give routing classes to vehicles
09:49:56 <andythenorth> my attempt to use railtypes for segregating types of traffic was abortive
09:50:09 <andythenorth> waypoints are quite yak-shaving for it
09:50:21 <andythenorth> programmable signals are JGRPP only
09:50:32 <nielsm> trouble with waypoints in OTTD is that they take up space on the map IMO
09:50:51 <andythenorth> I have had routing problems with them, but I can't now replicate
09:51:04 <andythenorth> probably due to badly placed depots though
09:51:20 <nielsm> they would really be better suited as a kind of non-space-consuming thing on the edge between tiles
09:52:01 <andythenorth> I don't know if routing would be intrinsic to vehicles (based on properties like brakes, signalling type, speed limit etc)
09:52:12 <andythenorth> or if it would be better defined on groups or orders
09:53:13 <andythenorth> but it would be nice to be able to speed-segregate vehicles on main lines whilst letting them share junctions and stations and branch lines
09:53:14 <nielsm> like a train changing classes between the delivery and return trips?
09:53:30 <andythenorth> ^ that's quite an IRL thing in British train classifications
09:53:50 <andythenorth> some trains get adjusted priority and speed depending on empty / loaded
09:54:29 <andythenorth> I guess 'waypoints' covers enough of this to not bother with more
09:55:20 <andythenorth> but all those schemes exist for e.g. priority merge etc
10:05:07 <andythenorth> so maybe some kind of gate thing
10:05:30 * andythenorth might just be inventing programmable signals :P
10:12:31 <nielsm> programmable signals that select behaviour based on some "class" flag on the train might be a thing
10:12:40 <andythenorth> hmm routefinding in JGRPP (not programmable)
10:12:45 <andythenorth> there are two implementations
10:15:57 <michi_cc> To get "real" train routing in OTTD, you'd have to integrate SimSig or such. There's a point somewhere that delineates game and reality simulator.
10:17:12 <andythenorth> I think JGRPP has probably surpassed that point
10:17:21 * andythenorth trying to learn what the routefinding does
10:19:15 <andythenorth> all I wanted was TGVs that can (1) prefer a dedicated railtype if two equivalent routes A->B exist, and one is for TGV use (2) keep other trains off the TGV route (3) allow TGVs to otherwise use anything ELRL-compatible :P
10:19:30 <andythenorth> this is not easily achieved :D
10:20:35 <andythenorth> it _can_ be done with waypoints
10:21:11 <andythenorth> but for a highly connected mainline it means setting explicit waypoint orders for every non-TGV train that might ever traverse A->B
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10:42:21 <TrueBrain> 1.5s to compile FIRS via the web .. pretty sure I can speed it up a bit, but not much more :P
10:46:07 <TrueBrain> and I have this annoying problem that I have to send PNGs as base64 to WASM, as I cannot find a way to not do that :P
10:46:12 <TrueBrain> owh well .. lunch time
10:50:41 <glx> andythenorth: it should be doable using powered property, similar to diesel allowed on RAIL and ELRL, while electric run only on ELRL
10:54:46 <nielsm> isn't the "powered" property kind of superfluous with the railtypes and compatible railtypes system?
10:55:24 <nielsm> and more of a holdover from ttdpatch times where there were just rail and electrified rail?
10:55:35 <andythenorth> TrueBrain that is a lot faster than locally :P
11:07:37 <glx> Dunno but if it's possible for RAIL/ELRL there should be a way to do the same for LGV/ELRL
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11:19:19 <frosch123> oof, i hate it when i go to sleep and when i wake up, irc is still debating the same thing :)
11:21:00 <frosch123> where do you post blogs these days?
11:25:44 <michi_cc> Don't worry, Discord is also still debating :)
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12:10:56 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: well, even the CLI variant is 1.4s .. so I guess WASM isn't so much slower :P
12:11:03 <andythenorth> frosch123 you post them on OpenTTD.org, github discussions, forums, or in your personal page of wiki
12:11:06 <TrueBrain> I think the 32bpp PNG conversion takes most time .. I am sure I can win something there :D
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13:18:36 <TrueBrain> my FIRS does something wrong with sprite-sorting :D
13:18:44 <TrueBrain> the industry is also ... a bit off
13:18:47 <TrueBrain> from the place it should be :D
13:19:11 <TrueBrain> I wonder what I did to break that
13:20:41 <TrueBrain> seems groundsprites are wrongly located
13:22:45 <TrueBrain> now to figure out where that got introduced ..
13:24:53 <TrueBrain> blind guess .. I flipped left/top ..
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14:08:43 <TrueBrain> right, testing is working as expected .. most things are back in place to rebuild the interface :P
14:08:48 <TrueBrain> but first .. food :)
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14:20:45 <michi_cc> Hmm, I think I asked about how to handle variable renames with the new table-based savegame format before in here. Anyone rememeber when this was and what the outcome was? :p
14:21:16 <glx> hmm I can try to search the logs
14:22:30 <michi_cc> I even have vague memories of coding something, but I just can't find it, so maybe I am now officially old :p
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14:40:35 <glx> (not sure it really helps)
14:43:18 <michi_cc> glx: Thanks, that was what I was thinking of.
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15:21:01 <peter1138> Step 1: Don't rename.
15:56:52 <andythenorth> A strange game: the only winning move is not to play
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18:17:45 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Japan, I think?
18:19:18 <TrueBrain> Ugh, why am I not surprised :p
18:20:15 <FLHerne> although the 50Hz and 60Hz electrifications don't directly abut each other, there's DC in between
18:20:39 <FLHerne> also, both 20kV and 25kV at 50Hz
18:50:34 <snail_UES_> I hope I didn’t come late for the discussion :)
18:51:13 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:33:27 <frosch123> impressive that you can find the correct location in the code, quote it including a source comment that precisely answers your question, and still get it wrong
19:33:59 <glx> FLHerne: IIRC they also use100V 50Hz and 100V 60Hz for domestic electricity
19:48:10 <FLHerne> frosch123: seems unintuitive given nothing else acts that way
19:48:23 * FLHerne mutters about HST powercars
19:49:30 <FLHerne> also, what if someone makes a grf plane with 100 mail and 1 passenger (in the copilot's seat!)?
19:50:02 <frosch123> you can refit aircraft to mail only, if you really want to transport mail
19:50:11 <FLHerne> perhaps ideally it would apply to any cargo with a sufficiently small ratio, on any vehicle type
19:50:52 <frosch123> for trains the player can decide what cargo is transported, except maybe for the default dual-headed engines
19:51:07 <frosch123> but for aircraft you cannot ignore the annoying mail compartment
19:51:30 <frosch123> if you want more control, you have to use factorio-style orders
19:52:02 <frosch123> mixed departure conditions depending on time, various load percentages or external triggers
19:52:18 <frosch123> not sure what "external triggers" would be in ottd, maybe "arrival of other train"
19:53:51 <FLHerne> I think JGR has a "full load <select cargoes>" order
19:54:18 <FLHerne> unless I'm just thinking of his improved autorefit...
19:54:43 <nielsm> that might actually be useful yes, "wait for another vehicle sharing orders with this one and being on the same order index to begin loading"
19:56:26 <frosch123> endless possibilities :)
19:56:55 <frosch123> but i think the current behavior is the best option, if there is only a single bool setting
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