IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-04-16
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03:51:41 <Gustavo6046> how do I auto update my newgrfs?
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09:35:15 <andythenorth> is RAIL a parameter in nml?
09:35:19 * andythenorth has a confusing result
09:36:59 <andythenorth> track_type: "RAIL";
09:37:07 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/iron-horse.nml", line 23467: This expression can not be assigned to a parameter
09:37:34 <andythenorth> I can't find any definition of RAIL in nml other than in the default railtype table
09:48:36 <andythenorth> nvm, I've found the cause
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13:11:00 <andythenorth> too early to tell
13:11:04 <andythenorth> sunny out though
13:24:36 <andythenorth> just as I thought I understood railtypes entirely
13:24:39 <andythenorth> whoosh, this hits me
13:24:53 <andythenorth> surely RAIL should be replaced with SAAN and ELRL with SAAE
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15:26:35 <andythenorth> ok so the standardised scheme, I wonder who's in charge now
15:30:19 * andythenorth wondering about standardised road and tramtype scheme
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16:47:07 <andythenorth> Easter is a bad time for getting answers about OpenTTD standards compliance :(
16:47:17 <andythenorth> still don't know what to use for Metro label
16:48:32 <andythenorth> I am hoping it is TUBE
16:48:56 <andythenorth> I can pick any axle weight, as they're all the same, so B
16:48:59 <andythenorth> then Electrified
16:49:21 <andythenorth> maybe Unlimited rather than Undefined for 2nd byte (speed)
16:49:32 <andythenorth> I will ask forums
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18:49:19 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:52:37 <frosch123> at least dorpsgek is working
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19:38:36 <andythenorth> although I think A means 'no speed limit' as a synonym of 'lowest speed limit but there is only one speed class'
19:38:53 <andythenorth> so sAA4 might be good
19:38:57 <michi_cc> andythenorth: RAIL and ELRL are always defined by OTTD, and you can't undefine a label.
19:39:31 <andythenorth> so they'll always be buildable, even if no vehicles exist with RAIL?
19:39:58 <frosch123> no, but they will always occupy a slot
19:40:00 <michi_cc> Well, no, but expecting people to use only one single train NewGRF is very unrealistic.
19:40:15 <andythenorth> just seems incorrect
19:40:21 <andythenorth> RAIL doesn't fit the standard scheme
19:41:02 <frosch123> you can identify those types in your newgrf
19:41:09 <frosch123> but every newgrf has to do that
19:41:18 <michi_cc> As you can't get rid of RAIL, the way to to it is to place the railtype on the label RAIL, and but SAAN as an alternate_label.
19:42:08 <frosch123> or you use the nml feature to identify multiple labels in the railtype table
19:42:31 <frosch123> alternate_labels is for railtype grfs, railtype_table is for vehicle grfs
19:42:39 <frosch123> no ides what you are currently doing :)
19:43:21 <andythenorth> trying to apply the standardised railtype scheme correctly
19:43:33 <andythenorth> it bothers me that it recommends keeping RAIL and ELRL
19:43:54 <andythenorth> hmm my test didn't work
19:44:01 <andythenorth> I need to define more tailtypes
19:44:07 <glx> you still need RAIL and ELRL as fallbacks
19:44:34 <andythenorth> isn't RAIL just a compatible type to SAAN?
19:44:40 <andythenorth> SAAN is just the updated label for RAIL
19:44:45 <andythenorth> and OpenTTD should implement it
19:45:06 <andythenorth> or maybe nml could force it
19:45:24 <frosch123> neither of them can do that
19:45:26 <andythenorth> anyway, this is a side quest
19:45:35 <andythenorth> the real actual question is how to implement metro
19:45:38 <frosch123> RAIL and SAAN are only identicaly, if you do not use either of the two A components
19:45:51 <frosch123> a railtype grf may as well decide that RAIL is SCCN
19:45:53 <andythenorth> so far the options are SPAM, sAA4, sZA4m or TUBE
19:46:13 <andythenorth> oh yes, that's a good point
19:46:14 <frosch123> the basegame provides very simple railtypes
19:46:24 <frosch123> railtype grfs can extend them in either restrictions
19:46:24 <andythenorth> SAAN changes meaning depending what other grfs are loaded
19:46:38 <frosch123> noone says that RAIL is the slowest, the fastest, the lightest or heaviest
19:46:52 <andythenorth> well I am interpreting A as 'no speed limit' per the docs
19:46:59 <andythenorth> but that's contextual to grf config
19:46:59 <glx> RAIL is just not electrified
19:47:04 <frosch123> RAIL just means that you do not care about the details
19:47:21 <andythenorth> it just seems odd to have a standardised scheme that isn't
19:47:38 <andythenorth> anyway, side quest :P
19:47:43 <andythenorth> metro I am really unsure about
19:47:51 <andythenorth> I just used MTRO, but that's not wanted
19:47:58 <andythenorth> doesn't fit standard scheme
19:48:33 <andythenorth> Standard, Poky, A axle load, Metro power
19:48:51 <glx> you can do whatever you want when defining railtypes, then the vehicles can use your new types if available or fallback to RAIL/ELRL otherwise
19:48:53 <michi_cc> I think you interpret more into the the standardised scheme as it is. The standardises scheme is an API contract between railtype NewGRFs and vehicle NewGRFs.
19:49:23 <andythenorth> so in this contract, we can just assign equivalence of RAIL to e.g. SAAN, SBBN, etc
19:49:26 <andythenorth> per the circumstance?
19:49:36 <michi_cc> It doesn't say anything about how the railtype GRF is implemented nor how the vehicle GRF is implemented, just how two different GRFs that don't know of each can interoperate comaptibly.
19:49:43 <andythenorth> ok contractual assignment is a thing I understand :)
19:51:43 <michi_cc> And it was written with the expectation of 16 concurrent railtypes, which necessitates a selection on the track GRF side.
19:52:28 <michi_cc> But even with 64 (or even more railtypes), good gameplay is still different than just saying MOAR, IMHO.
19:55:07 <andythenorth> I only got into the RAIL thing because of a discord comment :)
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19:58:48 <andythenorth> still hoping for an answer on metro :D
20:02:43 <frosch123> it also mentions 3rd rail and catenary
20:03:43 <andythenorth> I did travel round Berlin for a week
20:03:56 <andythenorth> it was important to know about different systems there
20:05:07 <FLHerne> not sure I trust the list though
20:05:26 <andythenorth> well using S or U there violates the spec
20:05:34 <andythenorth> they are for eye candy only
20:05:51 <andythenorth> they're not allowed to define the actual railtype type
20:06:00 <FLHerne> maybe I misunderstand what you want 'metro' to be
20:06:31 <FLHerne> distinct from 3rd-rail, like those cable-hauled things?
20:06:38 <andythenorth> it's just a unique railtype
20:06:42 <andythenorth> with its own trains
20:06:51 <andythenorth> trains are either metro, in which case they can go on it
20:07:01 <FLHerne> note that in London 3rd-rail mainline trains and LU tube trains share tracks in various places
20:07:11 <andythenorth> yeah this metro doesn't do that
20:07:20 <andythenorth> no complicated return power circuits
20:07:22 <andythenorth> no dual-signalling
20:07:31 <andythenorth> no trip-cock fitted mainline trains
20:07:45 <andythenorth> it's just a type of train with a dedicated track
20:08:07 <andythenorth> I looked if LOLZ was in the standard scheme, but it's not
20:08:42 <FLHerne> to be vaguely consistent with the spec, I guess you should invent a letter that isn't 3, E, Z etc. and use that
20:10:08 <andythenorth> looks like tramtypes :P
20:10:19 <andythenorth> the standardised scheme for tramtypes is later
20:12:46 <FLHerne> that might let self-powered normal rail drive on it though
20:12:54 <FLHerne> [for a standard-gauge metro]
20:13:09 <FLHerne> of course, someone drove a steam locomotive on Manchester Metrolink
20:13:38 <FLHerne> I'm surprised you haven't demanded a way for trains to drive on tram tracks and vice versa yet :D
20:13:49 <andythenorth> my oldest child has
20:13:56 <andythenorth> I find the idea weird :P
20:13:58 <andythenorth> trains are trains
20:14:07 <andythenorth> this isn't tram-train land
20:14:20 <FLHerne> There are tram-trains in Sheffield now
20:14:51 <andythenorth> "that doesn't make them right" :P
20:14:59 <andythenorth> still, it's surprisingly hard to pick this label
20:16:04 <andythenorth> gauge: undetermined
20:16:12 <andythenorth> speed limit: non-applicable
20:16:17 <andythenorth> axle-load: non-applicable
20:16:33 <andythenorth> power-type: 3 or 4 rail, doesn't matter which
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20:20:05 <frosch123> if you do not care about speed limits, gauge or electrification, use MTRO
20:20:24 <frosch123> it's part of nutracks, so every train grf knows about it
20:22:33 <frosch123> you can still list two dozen alternative labels which are equivalent
20:23:54 <frosch123> once you add eyecandy railtypes, which differ by looks rather than by functionality, it makes no sense to use the railtype schema
20:24:17 <frosch123> every raittype needs a unique type within the newgrf, even if they behave the same
20:24:49 <frosch123> so you would pick some unique id for each type, and then list all standard types as alternative or powered labels
20:26:15 <frosch123> i don't think it was the intention of the railtype scheme to include "subterranean" or "urban" eyecandy labels
20:26:23 <frosch123> those things do not matter for compatbility
20:26:49 <frosch123> and it makes no sense that any trainset would list them
20:27:28 <frosch123> maybe the answer is: the railtype schema is for trainsets.
20:27:52 <frosch123> railtype sets use the scheme labels as alternate_labels to support trainsets
20:28:10 <frosch123> but use whatever is unique for the main label
20:34:40 <andythenorth> "the railtype schema is for trainsets" this needs a twitter unroll :P
20:34:57 <andythenorth> so really the railtype schema is about vehicle properties?
20:51:33 <frosch123> but it's probably hard to write it clearer :)
20:52:13 <frosch123> we had the same discussion about cargotypes
20:52:42 <frosch123> MILK is liquid and transported in tank wagons. packaged milk is not MILK, packaged milk is just GOODs
20:58:02 <andythenorth> MILK comes from a farm :P
20:58:07 <andythenorth> and goes to a dairy :P
20:59:32 <andythenorth> the label is just for an edge in the graph, the intrinsic properties of the cargo are secondary
21:00:36 <frosch123> cargos have a cargolabel and cargoclasses
21:00:54 <frosch123> railtypes only have a label, and the standard scheme tries to add classes to them
21:01:14 <frosch123> but at the same time railtypes have a main label and alternate_labels
21:01:47 <frosch123> imo alternate_labels are comparable to cargoclasses
21:02:15 <frosch123> imo ignore that they use the same "namespace"
21:02:59 <frosch123> vehiclesets use cargoclasses for most cargos, and labels if they have a strong opinion about a specific cargo
21:04:06 <frosch123> similar the alternate_labels should be used for general vehicle support, while the main label only matters if the vehicle has a strong opinion about a specific type
21:04:23 <frosch123> in the latter case the vehicleset is probably tied to a specific railtypeset
21:05:03 <frosch123> like the MEOW trains in nuts care about track colors :)
21:06:23 <frosch123> tldr my newsletter: use a unique grf-specific label for the main railtype label, use the standard scheme for alternate_labels and treat them like cargoclasses
21:16:38 <andythenorth> I could subscribe to that newsletter
21:16:57 <andythenorth> standard scheme does seem to fill the 'there are no classes' gap
21:17:27 <andythenorth> for my own Horse purposes, I don't actually care about any of this :)
21:17:45 <andythenorth> it's a project to try and make it useful for other authors :P
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21:19:05 <frosch123> problem is: the cargoclass analogy kind of breaks when you consider that earch altenerate_label maps to only one railtype at a time
21:19:18 <andythenorth> 'perfection is not achieved'
21:19:33 <frosch123> so cargoclasses are split into two things: alternate_labels and powered_types
21:20:00 <andythenorth> did we perhaps...overload the labels? :P
21:20:56 <andythenorth> this might seem irrelevant, but in Iron Horse, the trains gained a 'requires_electric_rails' flag
21:21:18 <andythenorth> because trying to track e.g. visual effect etc on overloaded railtype labels wasn't working
21:21:36 <andythenorth> it was easier just to have an explicit bool, and resolve things as needed
21:22:00 <andythenorth> if track_type in ['mtro', 'elrl', 'elng']: blah blah
21:22:44 <andythenorth> not sure how I'll handle that in Euro Horse :P
21:22:56 <andythenorth> 25kv AC vs 1.5k DC :P
21:23:59 <frosch123> there is now a vehicle variable "tile_has_catenary", which you can use for visual purposes
21:24:19 <andythenorth> even more possibilities :)
21:24:31 <andythenorth> what does it do for 3rd rail? :P
21:24:45 <frosch123> it works as long as you do not want to distinguish voltages, frequencies and phases :)
21:25:01 <andythenorth> maybe the 1.5kv vs 25kv is unwise :P
21:26:17 <andythenorth> hmm when the grf has both a railtype table
21:26:22 <andythenorth> and railtypes with alternates
21:26:41 <andythenorth> maybe I should unify the railtype table fallbacks list and the railtype alternates list
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21:27:46 <andythenorth> this is a good adventure
21:27:59 <andythenorth> next: road and tramtypes :)
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21:55:48 <frosch123> haha, you succeeded in assigning all bits? :p
21:55:56 <frosch123> no room for eyecandy :)
21:56:55 <frosch123> you are missing experimental tracks with 3 phase catenary :)
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