IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-04-10
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12:21:49 <andythenorth> anybody understand railtype stuff? :P
12:22:03 * andythenorth merging Termite into Horse, dunno what all this compatibility things are
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17:06:28 <andythenorth> so should I set compatible and powered the same for railtypes?
17:27:43 * andythenorth copies whatever Termite does, leaves it alone :P
17:35:47 <andythenorth> why is metro compatible with RAIL and ELRL?
17:36:15 <andythenorth> it's broken anyway
17:36:22 <andythenorth> I can't build metro in RAIL depots
17:36:38 <andythenorth> I can't build normal RAIL vehicles in metro depots
17:37:07 <andythenorth> or does compatible mean something else?
17:37:47 <frosch123> it's from the train's POV
17:39:16 <andythenorth> I am reading the spec as "I can build RAIL vehicles in metro depots if I set this"
17:40:39 <frosch123> it doesn't even mention depots :)
17:41:02 <andythenorth> depots are just track
17:41:14 <andythenorth> so if a train can run on the track, it should be buildable in the depot
17:41:30 <frosch123> that would be "powered", not "compatible"
17:41:41 <glx> isn't there also a "can run on it" and "can run on it by iself" factor ?
17:42:12 <andythenorth> hmm also extra lolz
17:42:25 <andythenorth> Horse metro railtype table is
17:42:27 <andythenorth> METRO: [MTRO, "3RDR", ELRL],
17:42:38 <andythenorth> but metro track type lable is SAA3
17:43:03 <andythenorth> I guess that relies on the alternative_railtype_list falling through
17:43:33 <andythenorth> conclusion so far: don't change the existing values, they're magic!
17:43:39 <frosch123> the [..] are not "AND"
17:44:22 <frosch123> the line you quoted means: metro trains run on MTRO. but if that type is not defined by any grf, try 3RDR or ELRL
17:44:38 <andythenorth> so if I disable metro tracks, metro trains are then buildable on ELRL
17:44:41 <frosch123> the latter ensuring that the metro trains will run on default railtypes, if no railtype newgrf is loaded
17:44:58 <andythenorth> but don't the railtypes define the compatibility?
17:45:09 <andythenorth> I guess both sides have to specify fallbacks?
17:45:14 <andythenorth> and then there's some negotiation?
17:45:22 <andythenorth> is this rock-paper-scissors?
17:45:23 <frosch123> this is neither compatibilty, nor powerdness, this is a third thing :)
17:45:35 <andythenorth> is this not alternative_railtype_list?
17:46:08 <andythenorth> I'm trying to work out the fallback order
17:46:14 <andythenorth> Horse sets METRO as above
17:46:18 <frosch123> railtype-table is a vehicle-grf-thing
17:46:31 <frosch123> compatility/powerness/alternativeness is a tracktype-grf-thing
17:46:43 <glx> vehicle grf declare which type they expect, then use them in vehicle info
17:47:13 <andythenorth> then Termite has metro track with label SAA3, and alternative_railtype_list=["3RDR","MTRO","SAA3","SAB3","SAC3","SAD3","SAE3",]
17:47:31 <andythenorth> so I think Horse relies on MTRO as the actual label?
17:47:44 <frosch123> yes, that means termite defines all those labels, and map them to the same railtype
17:47:45 <andythenorth> (when Termite is used)
17:47:54 <frosch123> horse will then find 3RDR
17:48:20 <glx> track grf provide tracks and some "magic"/logic matches vehicle expectation to actual available tracks
17:48:25 <frosch123> ah, wait, MTRO is also in the list
17:48:55 <andythenorth> I didn't make Termite, Foobar adapted it from OGFX tracks or Dutch tracks or something
17:49:04 <andythenorth> I could ask Foobar, but sands of time...
17:49:25 <frosch123> just read SAD3 as SAD³
17:49:28 <andythenorth> it all seems to work, I just don't like weird cargo-culting
17:49:43 <andythenorth> I read it as SADE leet nonsense
17:51:04 <frosch123> you could run an ottd quiz on discord :p
17:59:23 <andythenorth> I wonder if the metro label could just be MTRO
17:59:36 <andythenorth> is that too sensible?
18:02:25 <andythenorth> do I even want to ask? :)
18:02:55 <frosch123> voltages AC and DC!
18:03:04 <frosch123> how could it be just "metro"?
18:03:49 <andythenorth> I remember when we thought cargo labels were complicated :P
18:03:56 <andythenorth> "more innocent times"
18:06:11 <andythenorth> I want to make a high speed railtype that bans freight
18:06:25 <andythenorth> but sadly railtypes don't seem to have a mapping to cargo labels in the vehicle
18:17:01 <andythenorth> so TGV type trains get a dedicated railtype
18:17:08 <andythenorth> but they also need to run on e.g. ELRL
18:17:18 <andythenorth> that's set by the railtype?
18:17:29 <andythenorth> but I don't know what the railtype does?
18:25:56 <andythenorth> maybe I need EHIG
18:27:11 <andythenorth> well that doesn't account for track which is super-elevated, with steeper gradients than usual, and has specific signalling system for high speed operation
18:27:30 <frosch123> it doesn't even have triple-gauge rail
18:27:39 <andythenorth> maybe a new standard is needed?
18:27:48 <andythenorth> I just want a track that excludes freight trains
18:27:53 <andythenorth> or is that programmable waypoints?
18:28:16 <andythenorth> this model railway simulator might need redesigned :P
18:28:27 <frosch123> tracktypes have max speed, but not min speed :)
18:29:02 <andythenorth> it's easy to poke fun at, harder to design better :)
18:29:18 <andythenorth> I don't have any alternative better solutions
18:29:47 <frosch123> how about tracktypes that forbid breakdowns?
18:29:58 <andythenorth> that's just silly...
18:30:12 <andythenorth> tracktype that requires 100% reliability on the engine?
18:30:42 <andythenorth> so I should be able to use that exciting new hidden railtype flag?
18:30:51 <andythenorth> I make a TGV that uses LOLZ label or something
18:31:14 <andythenorth> then LOLZ is compatible (and powered? (and alternate for??)) ELRL *and* TGV_ ?
18:31:24 <andythenorth> then my TGV can go on ELRL or LOLZ
18:31:39 <andythenorth> but ELRL can't go on TGV?
18:34:12 <andythenorth> maybe testing is faster than talking :D
18:41:08 <andythenorth> how does the train set the axle load property?
18:41:20 <andythenorth> for this standardised railtype thing
18:41:45 <andythenorth> oh it's composed in the label?
18:42:21 <andythenorth> oh I've done Iron Horse wrong
18:42:29 <andythenorth> I've set all the normal trains to RAIL or ELRL
18:42:36 <andythenorth> I'm supposed to set them to some axle load crap
18:42:55 <frosch123> i have no idea whether any real newgrf ever used the axle load stuff :)
18:43:30 <frosch123> though is is vaporware if you do not even start?
18:43:38 <andythenorth> dunno, I've never seen any :)
18:43:42 <andythenorth> might have sold some once
18:44:07 <andythenorth> I think I will just use LOLZ as the label
18:44:28 <andythenorth> if I need more, I could maybe use GOAT
18:44:38 <frosch123> are you sure V didn't already use them?
18:44:44 <michi_cc> frosch123: The new DBSetXL and DBRails are supposed to use them (but of course the question of vaporware isn't settled yet :)
18:45:03 <andythenorth> "In case you're not convinced by this scheme"
18:45:09 <andythenorth> "Still not convinced? Feel free to use railtype labels of your own, but know that you will likely come to regret that at some point in the future."
18:45:16 <andythenorth> I regret everything already
18:45:18 <frosch123> michi_cc: i am not sure whether "new" is correct there
18:45:20 <andythenorth> why mention the future?
18:45:29 <michi_cc> Okay, fair, unreleased.
18:45:33 <andythenorth> I might edit the wiki
18:45:40 <andythenorth> no, that would be childish
18:45:44 <frosch123> more than half as old as ottd
18:46:00 <frosch123> probably 3/4 as old as newgrf
18:46:08 <andythenorth> but grf is always new
18:47:11 <frosch123> the only thing worse than calling things "new", is calling them "intelligent"
18:47:40 <TrueBrain> a fresh (read: new) and intelligent remark you made there frosch123 ! :P
18:47:53 <frosch123> at work there was a setting called "intel_xxx"
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18:48:05 <michi_cc> "premium", because if it was premium, you wouldn't need to stress it.
18:48:07 <frosch123> i though it was some weird encoding/byte order magic or similar
18:48:40 <frosch123> but when i looked what it does, it did some trivial compute Y from X thing
18:49:02 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:49:18 <TrueBrain> the person who wrote it is still proud at it!
18:49:40 <andythenorth> I really can't railtypes scheme standardised
18:49:45 <andythenorth> even though foobar is a good egg
18:49:51 <andythenorth> 'mistakes were made'
18:50:08 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oof... like the guy who wrote a comment in the code, that they made the checksum computation 10x as fast by moving the division out of a loop
18:50:19 <frosch123> which resulted in the checksum only depending on the last 8 bytes...
18:50:41 <TrueBrain> also: unit-test failures? :P
18:51:12 <frosch123> unfortunately the guy left the company before i joined
18:52:41 <frosch123> i heard another story about a funny code comment: apparently it started with "we need to be careful here, and consider exactly what to do", followed by a screen of blank lines
19:08:43 <andythenorth> ugh this didn't work as expected
19:09:23 <andythenorth> the CATZ type doesn't appear in the menu
19:09:55 <andythenorth> there are no vehicles setting CATZ, but there are vehicles setting LOLZ
19:11:48 <andythenorth> hmm makes no sense to me at all
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19:18:57 <andythenorth> might be author error
19:21:14 * andythenorth My First Railtype!
19:26:05 <andythenorth> no this still makes no sense
19:26:51 <andythenorth> what does compatible do?
19:27:20 <frosch123> quiz: what makes the least sense? (a) railtype compatibility (b) vehicle capacity (c) vehicle movement around corners (d) tile distance scale
19:29:36 <andythenorth> vehicles with the track_type CATZ can be built in CATZ or ELRL depots
19:29:44 <andythenorth> and will run on both railtypes
19:29:59 <andythenorth> ELRL or RAIL vehicles will not build in CATZ depots
19:30:05 <andythenorth> nor run on CATZ railtype
19:30:10 <andythenorth> which is the desired outcome
19:30:15 <andythenorth> but the implementation makes zero sense
19:30:26 <andythenorth> why does this happen?
19:31:11 <andythenorth> oh it's what michi explained in discord
19:31:53 <andythenorth> nothing to see here
19:33:21 <andythenorth> so to try to explain
19:33:41 <andythenorth> the compatible_railtype_list is defined on a railtype
19:33:52 <andythenorth> but it sets which other railtypes a vehicle is compatible with
19:33:59 <andythenorth> not the railtype
19:34:51 <andythenorth> so if I want to allow ELRL vehicles on this type
19:34:55 <andythenorth> I have to redefine ELRL
19:36:38 <andythenorth> ok nice to understand finally :D
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19:47:40 <glx> the way it works you can tell TGV_ is compatible with ELRL while ELRL is not compatible with TGV_
19:49:19 <andythenorth> ok that means I understand
19:49:32 <andythenorth> it's only what the spec says TBH
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