IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-23
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02:42:50 <glx> hey at least it's from OP and not some random people
02:46:15 <wiscii> kind of curious what happened in the last 9 years!
02:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's what makes it impressive :)
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09:54:27 <andythenorth_> connecting the power grid with objects is kind of lolz
09:54:49 <andythenorth_> but GS pathfinding is so slooooooooow it probably won't be usable :D
09:55:32 <TrueBrain> that happens if you try to find limits ;)
09:56:46 <andythenorth_> currently I am misusing the road pathfinder
09:56:52 <andythenorth_> which will have side effects
09:57:25 <andythenorth_> I wonder what would happen if I just used turn based compass pathfinding, and a spiral walker to look ahead
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09:57:50 <andythenorth_> 'try to stay on this vector'
09:58:06 <TrueBrain> grr, my import for steeltown doesn't work for hot-in-a-country :(
09:58:16 <andythenorth_> hmm I tried giving the road pathfinder negative cost values
09:58:19 <andythenorth_> seems to be failing
10:01:47 <TrueBrain> hmmm .... No such file or directory: 'graphics/industries/copper_mine_1.png'
10:01:54 <TrueBrain> guess someone was too lazy to draw one himself? :P :P :P
10:03:21 <andythenorth_> wonder if I'll ever do those sprites :P
10:03:28 <andythenorth_> or if I spend next 3 years building pylons
10:03:41 <TrueBrain> I am not just skipping that industry in my export :P
10:03:46 <TrueBrain> as TrueGRF does not support that use-case :)
10:04:22 <andythenorth_> hmm 30 years on ffwd, to connect 2 power stations
10:04:29 <andythenorth_> this isn't really a viable idea :P
10:04:39 <andythenorth_> only 256 x 512 map even
10:07:42 <andythenorth_> looks nice when it works
10:07:59 <andythenorth_> I wonder if there's a much more efficient pathfinder for this case
10:08:00 <TrueBrain> hmm .. no hotel graphics too
10:09:05 <TrueBrain> seems Steeltown was the best economy to pick :D
10:09:20 <andythenorth_> hotel, copper mine, oil rig, maybe oil wells
10:09:48 <TrueBrain> that is a lot of industries to skip :P
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10:10:58 <andythenorth> it's a few too many for me to quickly draw also :)
10:11:22 <andythenorth> ok 40 years on ffwd, power grid is complete
10:11:30 <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, I am not expecting you to do so :D
10:12:00 <andythenorth> it needs doing anyway, they all look bad with certain basesets
10:12:18 <andythenorth> I am going doing nut things
10:12:33 <andythenorth> how can we get Zuu back? :P
10:12:51 <TrueBrain> there is also something fishy with the fishing harbour
10:12:53 <TrueBrain> see what I did there :D
10:13:57 <andythenorth> fishing harbour should be conventional
10:14:39 <TrueBrain> Exception: Couldn't find spriteset for fishing_harbour
10:14:56 <andythenorth> is it the construction state?
10:15:36 <TrueBrain> fishing_harbour_slope_switch_1
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10:15:53 <TrueBrain> I do not support "add_slope_graphics_switch" :P
10:16:11 <TrueBrain> also only used by fishing harbour
10:16:21 <TrueBrain> as I said, FIRS is full of this "this one industry does this different" :D
10:16:27 <TrueBrain> it is an excellent training set
10:16:56 <andythenorth> I almost deliberately add tiny variants :)
10:17:05 <andythenorth> it tends to stress test the core structure
10:17:37 <andythenorth> creating orthogonal variation without combinatorial fuckups is a good brain game
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10:18:09 <andythenorth> wondering why bulk terminal etc don't use that magic switch though
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10:49:56 <TrueBrain> Showing with 2,776 additions and 1,168 deletions.
10:50:01 <TrueBrain> oof ... scripting support didn't came cheap
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10:54:19 <TrueBrain> right .. after lunch, let's try to add custom placement in the callbacks scripting :D
10:54:26 <TrueBrain> should "just work", I guess
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11:04:40 <TrueBrain> became before lunch, as it was trivial :)
11:05:03 <TrueBrain> just ... tile-based callbacks ... those are more difficult to implement
11:05:08 <TrueBrain> so bulk terminal is still somewhere at sea :P
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11:18:44 <_dp_> why are there two properties for rv speed in grf?
11:19:00 <_dp_> I'd get it if one was extended but they're both byte...
11:19:16 <_dp_> unless you set it with callback when it's magically a work
11:21:10 <_dp_> also specs are wrong, 08 sets it in .5 kmh-ish/h , not 3.2 mph
11:21:27 <_dp_> and 15 in 2 kmh-ish/h which is probably not .8 mph either
11:24:30 <frosch123> you have to think like an artist who can't do physics
11:24:44 <frosch123> all the units are inverted in the specs
11:25:26 <frosch123> but yes, there are two properties, one with larger range, one with smaller steps, both stupid
11:26:34 <frosch123> andythenorth[m]: you should try using valuators, i would expect them to be faster
11:33:42 <_dp_> frosch123, shouldn't that be called "as mph*3.2" or smth?
11:38:08 <frosch123> when the specs say "speed in mph*3.2" they mean "property=(speed in mph)*3.2"
11:39:22 <_dp_> lol, that's a fun way to have implied brackets :p
11:40:43 <frosch123> the fun starts when you use the fact that the conversion rate between mph and kmh is like between hex and dec
11:42:47 <frosch123> so they could have written "property = (speed in kmh in hex) * 2"
11:44:24 <_dp_> this is just ridiculous...
11:45:03 <_dp_> also, after all that who the heck decided 1.6 isn't good enough and added a real kilometer? :p
11:45:24 <_dp_> speed is such a meaningless number in the game
11:46:50 <_dp_> nml nowadays seems to be just brute forcing the number to put in the property so it shows up right xD
11:58:46 <frosch123> oh, you missed some drama
11:59:10 <frosch123> around 0.5 ottd changed the conversion rates between mph/kmh to be more normal
11:59:43 <frosch123> which resulted in all realism newgrf authors that they engines which are listed to run at nominal 100kmh in real life suddenly showed 99kmh in ottd
12:00:28 <frosch123> so the change was reverted and never touched again :)
12:00:39 <frosch123> though i considered rounding all display values to multiples of 5
12:01:03 <frosch123> nominal engine properties are never exact, but rather rounded to nice numbers
12:02:03 <Xaroth> april fools joke, make all engine speeds show float values
12:03:58 <_dp_> btw, you can make a vehicle with 0 speed
12:04:31 <_dp_> it leaves the depot and can never return :P
12:04:34 <frosch123> i think for wagons 0 means "no speed limit"
12:05:07 <Rubidium> just write 0.0c everywhere ;)
12:05:18 <frosch123> however, ottd enforces a minimum speed of 1 step per 256 ticks or something
12:05:46 <frosch123> so even if your electric vehicles ends up unpowered on unelectrified track, yuo can still make it to a depot in 10 years
12:08:24 <_dp_> it's been like that for 50 years already
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12:15:31 <_dp_> frosch123, you say it was reverted but the game uses some realistic kmh conversion rn
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12:17:47 <_dp_> meanwhile, it's 2800, on the ruins of a long abandoned planet road vehicle 1 still tries to reach the depot xD
12:18:35 <andythenorth_> frosch123 valuators for the distance calculations? or for the pathfinding? :P
12:22:52 <frosch123> andythenorth_: currently when you add a node to the graph, you run GetDistanceManhattenToTile in a loop, write all to a list, sort the list and then take the minimum
12:23:28 <frosch123> using GSList you could put all connected ndoes into the list, valuate the distance to the node-to-be-added, and use the builtin-smallest-value method of GSList
12:23:38 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, by normal you meant 1.6 xD
12:24:16 <frosch123> i only remember there was drama with units, i forgot the details :)
12:25:25 <_dp_> frosch123, tbh, the way you put it it sounds more like a rounding issue than a conversion rate problem
12:26:16 <frosch123> isn't that the same? people tried values in nfo, until the gui showed what they wanted
12:26:26 <frosch123> then the code changed and showed a different value, and they got upset
12:27:02 <_dp_> well, yeah, but it's like a 1% change in the rate, it should not have change the value
12:27:03 <frosch123> 1.6 is a rounded value of 1.609344
12:27:26 <frosch123> sure 1% change means that 100 turns into 99
12:28:08 <andythenorth_> frosch123 yes I should change that :)
12:28:15 <frosch123> but since ottd supports m/s, not sure what's the point of nice numbers
12:28:40 <andythenorth_> the major slowness is the pathfinding which takes months or years :)
12:28:45 <_dp_> frosch123, 0.6% even but I guess it's enough after 100
12:30:16 <_dp_> and now there are also tiles/day
12:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth_> hmm I tried giving the road pathfinder negative cost values <-- careful with that. the universe might implode.
12:45:55 * andythenorth_ is hoping someone else wants to make a pathfinder
12:46:03 <andythenorth_> a much faster one :P
12:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
12:46:43 <andythenorth_> connect power stations with runs of pylon objects
12:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> every power station with every other power station?
12:47:55 <andythenorth_> it basically works, it's just achingly slow
12:48:03 <andythenorth_> 40 game years to connect 7 power stations
12:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to look into a "steiner tree"
12:48:52 <andythenorth_> the primary issue I think is any form of pathfinding in script is very slow
12:49:04 <frosch123> andythenorth_: why do you need a pathfinder
12:49:19 <andythenorth_> because nobody suggested an alternative? :)
12:49:27 <frosch123> can't you just use the path of a bird
12:49:38 <andythenorth_> I thought of compass pathfinding earlier
12:49:45 <frosch123> the pathfinder tries to figure out slopes and connected tile, but that does not matter in your case, does it?
12:50:10 <andythenorth_> conditions are something like: pylon every 8-10 tiles, must be empty land tile
12:50:30 <andythenorth_> I could follow a vector, then spiral walk
12:56:16 <andythenorth_> ideally I'd avoid cities :P
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13:21:35 <andythenorth_> hmm maybe I'm being stupid :)
13:21:44 <andythenorth_> can't see a method to get map x,y from GSTile
13:22:08 <andythenorth_> do I have to divide the tile index by the map size, as in grf?
13:24:01 <andythenorth_> trying a bird path route
13:24:11 * andythenorth_ has to look up pythagoras
13:24:23 <andythenorth_> unless there's some clever manhattan way to follow a vector
13:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: there should be helper functions to split a tile into x/y
13:25:39 <_dp_> just x0+t*dx, y0+t*dy should be more than enough for pylons
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13:57:13 <_dp_> if I set a static value in speed callback do I need to do it in both default and purchase chains or one is enough?
14:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> is cb36 even evaluated in purchase menu?
14:05:37 <frosch123> if you have a purchase-list case in action3 it will use that one
14:05:48 <frosch123> if you have none, purchase-list will use the default case
14:06:23 <frosch123> though many variables are not available in purchase list, so in more complex cases the default case will probably not work correctly
14:07:28 <andythenorth_> ok bird flies pylon builder is much much much faster
14:08:25 <andythenorth_> my graph is flawed
14:08:51 <andythenorth_> it just walks the list looking for closest next node
14:09:01 <andythenorth_> it can produce multiple graphs instead of one
14:09:12 <andythenorth_> and it doesn't have anything to prevent linking the same nodes both directions
14:09:41 <andythenorth_> finishes in about a month on my small test map
14:18:13 <_dp_> andythenorth_, yeah, you need keep and update the distance to the whole tree, not just last node
14:20:21 <_dp_> also add a closest node, not a random one xD
14:23:57 <andythenorth_> 'could do better' :P
14:24:39 <andythenorth_> my brain is more pixel shaped than graph shaped :P
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14:34:06 <supermop_Home> hmm since getting windows 11, if I open photoshop and ottd at the same time, laptop fan goes nuts
14:34:33 <supermop_Home> even if the game is on a small map and photoshop has no document open
14:35:00 <supermop_Home> like something just preemptively tells the fan controller to go all out in anticipation
14:37:24 <supermop_Home> is there an easier way to set up a game online without port forwarding stuff yet?
14:37:42 <TrueBrain> yes ...... we call that 12.0
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16:06:00 <andythenorth> so I just drove 50 miles and saw a lot of pylons
16:06:32 <b_jonas> I got hooked onto Factorio since the beginning of previous year, and it makes it impossible to play OpenTTD. Several times I tried to load an OpenTTD game, but my fingers keep doing the wrong keyboard and mouse commands.
16:07:02 <andythenorth> bird-path isn't quite right, some kind of 45 degree segment follower might be better
16:07:09 <b_jonas> The control schemes are just so different
16:07:55 <b_jonas> I remember when I started to play Shapez.io and Factorio, I was trying to scroll with right mouse button like in OpenTTD. That's especially bad in Shapez.io.
16:09:30 <andythenorth> polylines with a max length per segment
16:09:34 <andythenorth> then change direction
16:13:02 <andythenorth> also avoiding water bodies where possible would be nice
16:13:33 <andythenorth> it would be so handy to have a tile method to return the size of a sea body from a sea tile
16:19:04 <_dp_> that would be quite tricky to update
16:19:33 <andythenorth> terraforming etc
16:27:35 <_dp_> though I guess it can be approximated quite nicely with dsu
16:27:55 <_dp_> on terra just set or reset parent and propagate to neighbors in tile loop
16:30:29 <andythenorth> it could afford to not be massively accurate
16:30:33 <andythenorth> at least for gs and grf case
16:30:56 <andythenorth> the cases I'm aware of are just an assessment of 'big' or 'small'
16:31:33 <_dp_> I will be accurate, just will take some time to update
16:31:56 <_dp_> also probably require map-sized array of tile indexes
16:32:49 <andythenorth> someone proposed something before, something like dividing water bodies into regions of e.g. 32 tiles or so
16:32:49 <_dp_> and another array to store water bony size
16:32:59 <andythenorth> then just accumulating number of regions
16:33:22 <andythenorth> might have been voroni partition on a centre tile or something
16:34:23 <_dp_> dsu is ridiculously fast and simple, will probably beat any other kind of partitioning
16:37:09 <andythenorth> so many interesting openttd projects now :P
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16:39:43 <andythenorth> if I want to pathfind pylons _around_ towns ("tile has a town zone" might be a good proxy), I should just use A*? not try to do my own thing?
16:42:23 <_dp_> your own pathfinding algorithm? yeah, probably not a good idea :p
16:43:44 <andythenorth> pretty certain I can make a polyline with limited 45 degree directions, that follows a simple bird-path vector
16:43:52 <andythenorth> but steering it around towns seems like a nope
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16:50:05 <frosch123> powerlines visiting towns does not sound wrong
16:50:18 <frosch123> you could skip the pylons that hit houses
16:50:42 <frosch123> just water is weird, but so are snow covered mountains
16:51:43 <andythenorth> water is ok, if I can do a look-ahead somehow (or a write-back to previous node)
16:51:52 <andythenorth> I can just make it look like undersea cables
16:52:04 <andythenorth> same for towns, somewhat
16:52:23 <andythenorth> just weird to have pylons go through middle of city by design
16:53:21 <andythenorth> ok first, let's not have a stupid graph :)
16:53:36 <andythenorth> I need to remove duplicate edges, and ensure all are connected :P
16:59:49 <andythenorth> do I need to actually calculate the Delauney triangulation first?
16:59:53 <andythenorth> not that I know how :D
17:00:09 <_dp_> have you tried to make a proper Prim first? ;p
17:01:20 <andythenorth> translating something I don't really understand from python to squirrel :P
17:01:23 <andythenorth> hasn't happened yet
17:02:59 <andythenorth> wikipedia suggests I need to calculate the complete graph first
17:03:10 <andythenorth> isn't that going to be horrifically expensive on large maps?
17:03:43 <_dp_> wikipedia doesn't solve emst
17:04:08 <_dp_> your case is simpler, it's a complete graph, no need to store it
17:05:07 <andythenorth> complete because all vertices are already known?
17:05:41 <_dp_> oh, that, I think it meant to construct virtually
17:05:52 <_dp_> complete because there is an edge between any vertices
17:06:23 <_dp_> so you always know what is connected to what and don't need to store that
17:07:28 <_dp_> "and with care can be made to take space O(n)"
17:07:33 <_dp_> yeah, that's just a cost array
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17:15:46 <_dp_> there is some redundant code compared to my version but explanation is alright
17:17:19 <_dp_> well, redundant for complete graph I mean
17:17:28 <_dp_> like "no mst" case is impossible
17:41:57 <andythenorth> oh that article is good thanks
17:45:47 <andythenorth> so first node is just arbitrary
17:45:58 <andythenorth> could be random choice, or first in list or whatever
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17:52:02 <frosch123> aw, "cp" stands for "competitive programming"... i thought it meant "copy&paste" :p
17:55:36 * andythenorth and algorithms :)
17:57:54 <andythenorth> I can't really read that :)
17:58:02 <andythenorth> it's all just single char vars :P
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18:03:31 <andythenorth> do I need to prime the graph with the first node, outside of the loop?
18:03:39 <andythenorth> otherwise it's trying to connect a new point to an empty graph
18:04:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, check discord xD
18:05:25 <andythenorth> did you do that in GS, or you patched your client?
18:05:49 <_dp_> I don't rly know squirrel though xD
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18:16:17 <peter1138> Bangers and mash I think.
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20:25:22 <andythenorth> _dp_ var mi is what?
20:25:54 <_dp_> vis - visited nodes, i.e. added to mst
20:26:16 <_dp_> mi - i with min cost, i.e. node that is currently being added
20:39:53 <andythenorth> hmm this is fast
20:40:03 <andythenorth> it built within a couple of game days
20:47:39 <wiscii> "is it beer night?" .. that's almost as weird as "What am i supposed to do with a bottle of prosecco?"
20:52:27 <andythenorth> (pylon next to industry)
21:05:46 <supermop_Home> factory needs power
21:08:09 <andythenorth> stuff like airports....we'll just ignore :P
21:11:52 <andythenorth> hmm Russia has a single grid, 3.2m km of cables
21:12:11 <andythenorth> ok, no need to consider regional grids :)
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22:42:36 <supermop_Home> south west store front of that has a bar with good Mai Tais tho
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