IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-11
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00:00:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: The GUI for changing company color scheme is confusing https://git.io/J9GFm
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00:38:39 <supermop_Home> never use a vpn, can't be bothered
00:57:56 <wisbascii> just curious, not spamming
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14:28:49 <supermop_Home> TrueBrain can your tool export a grf?
14:29:50 <glx> you mean the "download: grf" button ?
14:34:42 <supermop_Home> 'industry of Hawaii' is actually not that interesting
14:35:31 <supermop_Home> tourism and defense are the biggest parts, but most of that 'defense' part is just people going to work at some office job at pearl harbor
14:37:27 <supermop_Home> the rest, like sugar cane/macadamia/pineapple would just be farm->packing plant -> port, or farm ->port
14:39:15 <supermop_Home> then there would be farm ->houses and fish ->houses, and port ->oil refinery ->gas station
14:40:39 <supermop_Home> tourism is less tourists ->beach, and more workers commute to hotels or restaurants
14:43:27 <supermop_Home> man too bad industries can't define custom fields yet
14:46:16 <supermop_Home> so can have both pineapple fields and cow pastures
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16:41:53 <supermop_Home> hmm i guess it would have been easier to start this from a 'in a hot country' template than steeltown
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16:50:25 <supermop_Home> Should a sugar refinery make food, or refined sugar, or like specialty food?
16:52:03 <supermop_Home> is taro root FOOD, or is it something that gets made into food at a secondary industry?
16:53:14 <supermop_Home> nielsm Hawaii had lots of sugar refineries, but few rum distilleries
16:53:54 <supermop_Home> so idk if it goes plantation->refinery->export, or plantation->refinery->houses
16:54:48 <nielsm> industrial scale would make most sense to export and other industries, not directly to houses
16:55:19 <nielsm> unless you also have a dentist equipment cargo that needs to be delivered to the houses in equal amounts
16:55:20 <supermop_Home> pineapples also weird, as today its mostly pineapple->air freight to mainland, before was pineapple->cannery->sea freight
16:56:24 <supermop_Home> i guess its just like, what supplies food to houses, what supplies goods
16:56:48 <supermop_Home> is a luxury like rum or refined sugar really just goods
16:58:21 <supermop_Home> macadamia nuts i don't think are distinct from pineapples in terms of cargo flow
16:58:33 <nielsm> it would kind of make most sense to deliver the consumer goods to a "retail distribution center" of sorts
16:58:40 <supermop_Home> i guess andy did all this already
16:59:01 <supermop_Home> nielsm or airfreight warehouse that spawns next to large airports?
17:02:26 <supermop_Home> i got Taro Farm, Sugar Plantation, Coffee Plantation, Pineapple Farm, Mac nut grove, Logging camp, (Import ports)
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17:58:59 <supermop_Home> then Sugar Refinery, Packing plant, lumber mill, (export ports)
17:59:25 <supermop_Home> seems plenty to provide background scenery
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20:07:48 <Gustavo6046> why isn't there a way to see the financial flow of your company? like a directed graph that shows where money comes and goes
20:07:59 <Gustavo6046> probably because nobody thinked about it and tbh it's a bit of a weird idea
20:08:26 <supermop_Home> there is the financial details window
20:08:41 <andythenorth> cos it's not needed? :)
20:08:44 <supermop_Home> it shows the costs and revenues for various things
20:09:07 <supermop_Home> anything more detailed than that, the game doesn't know either
20:09:15 <Gustavo6046> but visual intuition could help, also a graph structuer is more flexible and could allow, say, displaying grouped vehicles separately
20:09:20 <Gustavo6046> so you can tell which routes are more profitable
20:09:45 <Gustavo6046> well, "it doesn't know" sometimes is a good reason, sometimes not - you can add members to the vehicle group struct that tally things like that, you know!
20:09:59 <Gustavo6046> I forgot the name for the graph thing that shows where money goes
20:10:12 <Gustavo6046> like directed graph
20:10:50 <supermop_Home> your money doesn't go anywhere tho, its all just held in one big pile
20:11:52 <Gustavo6046> but in a business model, there are multiple sources and sinks where money comes from and goes to
20:12:32 <Gustavo6046> you're right, maybe it'd make more sense if there was more financial depth to the game, like idk, regional franchising with AI?
20:12:32 <supermop_Home> the running costs etc are shown in the financial details window
20:12:46 <Gustavo6046> would "looks cool" be a good enough reason?
20:13:09 <supermop_Home> but for most people it probably looks like work
20:13:29 <supermop_Home> i have to stress out about budgeting enough at work already
20:14:20 <supermop_Home> there is also the difficulty of, beyond the running cost of a group, how do you allocate their share of the infrastructure costs
20:19:48 <Gustavo6046> if there is a function internally that iterates over every vehicle to calculate infrastructure costs, in that loop you figure the individual contribution before adding it to a infrrastructure cost accumulator variable, right? put it somewhere else too and use that "somewhere else"
20:19:51 <supermop_Home> andythenorth where do macadamia nuts go
20:20:23 <Gustavo6046> also, looks like work? most people in office jobs don't do cool diagrams, they do boring spreadsheets, they are minnows in capitalism
20:21:09 <supermop_Home> infrastructure costs are generated by pieces of track, not vehicles
20:21:29 <Gustavo6046> then you probably don't group tracks...
20:21:37 <Gustavo6046> OR you let the player define like "regions" of the map
20:21:55 <Gustavo6046> it's pretty much just giving a name to an area of arbitrary shape
20:22:10 <Gustavo6046> so let's say this chunk of tiles here is the Bentford-Ashway Area
20:22:31 <Gustavo6046> and this other chunk of tiles here is the Minfing-Judith Market Area
20:22:50 <supermop_Home> but a train service can still be unprofitable even if the trains earn more revenue than running costs, if the cost of the track they run on is high
20:23:02 <Gustavo6046> like maybe this player in particular likes making large central lines and small feeder networks around each end, and call each area after it
20:23:43 <Gustavo6046> supermop_Home, well, that will be representable in the graph; a thick line will come from "Train Income" to the pool, and two lines whose summed width is larger will jot out, one to "Train Running Costs", one to "Infrastructure Costs", the thing is the latter might also be for every other kind of transportation
20:23:53 <supermop_Home> well yes, accounting for all these ways to divide up costs and revenue is down to decisions the player makes, not anything the game could know about it's internal state
20:23:54 <Gustavo6046> so we might be looking at grouping infrastructure costs by vehicle type too
20:24:14 <Gustavo6046> maybe some other kind of accounting reltaed notetaking would be nice
20:24:41 <supermop_Home> so i guess its best to just keep excel open in another window if that interests you?
20:25:01 <supermop_Home> i think there ar ways to export game information to csv or something
20:25:13 <supermop_Home> but this is basically accounting
20:25:42 <supermop_Home> if i found accounting to be that fun, i'd be an accountant
20:27:17 <supermop_Home> i wouldn't complain if the game had more graphs and spreadsheets, i just don't think i would look at them much personally?
20:28:45 <supermop_Home> i guess money feels too meaningless in the game to fret over it much
20:28:59 <Gustavo6046> money in the game is a bit of a shallow thing
20:29:13 <supermop_Home> as even with very punishing settings, there are ways to quickly make more money than you need
20:29:15 <Gustavo6046> you either have a lot or you have a little or you're in debt and unable to fix it and about to lose the game
20:29:37 <Gustavo6046> I was thinking it could be considered like some sort of score counter, like in arcade games, so people would race to maximize it
20:29:47 <Gustavo6046> capitalism in a nutshell
20:30:04 <supermop_Home> i play to make cute little trains drive around
20:30:18 <supermop_Home> everything else is just the scenery
20:31:28 <_dp_> game economy is dead simple, even in money goal games you don't need fancy diagrams to analyze it
20:31:31 <Gustavo6046> i play to move cargo around
20:31:39 <Gustavo6046> I really like cargodist
20:31:48 <Gustavo6046> because it makes it feel more fun to transport cargo around
20:31:55 <Gustavo6046> it's like each little city you add to the network has an impact in the netire network
20:31:58 <_dp_> there is already grouping by transport type and vehicle groups and there are patches for income by cargo but that's about it
20:32:09 <Gustavo6046> and sometimes it's all you need for a line to become congested and needing some expansion or something
20:32:39 <Gustavo6046> which is so satisfying, adds depth to the honestly boring simplicity of transport
20:32:56 <Gustavo6046> the vehicles themselves don't excite me a whole lot either
20:33:22 <Gustavo6046> unlike some people here, I'm not going to be browsing for the names and stats of 900 engines from manufacturers all across the world from various periods in modern history :p
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21:26:13 <supermop_Home> listening to podcast now nielsm
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22:04:02 <_dp_> is there some way to avoid typing same directory over and over when searching different patterns with grep/ag?
22:06:22 <FLHerne> (expands to last part of the previous command)
22:06:43 <FLHerne> so `grep foo aaa/bbb` `greb bar !$`
22:07:02 <_dp_> yeah, but what if last is not grep
22:07:18 <_dp_> I kinda found an ok solution though
22:07:22 <_dp_> echo ../src | xargs ag test
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