IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-09
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07:19:23 <Gustavo6046> Cities are fun but also kind of boring at the same time
07:19:27 <Gustavo6046> Fun because they spread and respond to cargo in a way
07:19:54 <Gustavo6046> Boring because, really, they don't do a whole lot other than passengers and mail and accepting goods or some other kinds of city cargo (like food and alcohol under FIRS).
07:22:19 <Gustavo6046> I mean, yeah, there is a local authority which can get mad at you if you don't hug trees (and maybe do dubiously intimate things to them too), and the road reconstruction that can frustrate rival industries whenever they exist
07:22:25 <Gustavo6046> And stuff like that
07:22:34 <Gustavo6046> I just wish there were more ways cities could interact with you and with each other, though.
07:22:41 <Gustavo6046> Maybe migration, maybe labour?
07:25:21 <Gustavo6046> Maybe a city will keep track of nearby industries and have a slight passenger supply desire for those
07:25:54 <Gustavo6046> Actually, uh, an industry will keep track of nearby cities and have a slight demand for passengers from them; the "supply desire" would probably be handled by Cargodist, and would already be with no additional effort
07:27:51 <Gustavo6046> Maybe as time goes on the radius from which it can pick labour demand increases, kind of like pamphlets reaching wider, or the Internet
07:28:10 <Gustavo6046> OR if you link up passenger lines to more cities, it'll eventually want passengers from those
07:29:12 <Gustavo6046> And whenever you deliver a passenger from a city to an industry, that boosts the city's growth – labour is remunerated and the cities grow
07:29:26 <Gustavo6046> yay for wage labour.... mehh...
07:31:34 <Gustavo6046> still waiting for openttd socialist edition :PP
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09:08:16 <jlx_> Can anyone please tell me in which CMake source group "openttd.cpp" is?
09:09:30 <jlx_> oh, does not matter. found it in src/CMakeLists.txt
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09:57:25 <peter1138> Oops, I overslept :(
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10:05:11 * andythenorth trying to remember how complex functions work in maths
10:07:36 <andythenorth> a map region that has a regular-if-complex boundary must be expressable as a function
10:07:51 <andythenorth> which means that evaluating if an (x, y) is inside or outside is just maths
10:08:09 <andythenorth> rectangle is easy, circle is easy
10:28:25 <andythenorth> I am not doing maths :P
10:28:43 <andythenorth> I want the computer to do it :P
10:28:49 <jlx_> "No available language packs (invalid versions?)" <- Anyone knows what that means?
10:29:11 <TrueBrain> that your language packs are not compiled for your binary
10:29:15 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: good, much better :)
10:29:39 <jlx_> TrueBrain: I only compiled openttd from source... Did I compile it wrong? Or do I need to somehow install these packs?
10:29:56 <TrueBrain> if you compiled from source, you also have new language files
10:30:04 <TrueBrain> they come together, as a pair
10:30:05 <TrueBrain> tightly hugging each other
10:31:52 <jlx_> TrueBrain: I just did a "make install", and then run "/path/to/where/I/installed/games/openttd"
10:32:11 <TrueBrain> I dunno, I can only tell you what the error means
10:32:38 <TrueBrain> your executable is not finding the language files that were build together with it
10:41:47 <jlx_> So, the language files are in the git repo "OpenTTD"?
10:42:08 <TrueBrain> no, you compile them together with the binary
10:42:44 <jlx_> where do I get these files from if they are not in git?
10:42:56 <TrueBrain> together with your binary
10:43:03 <TrueBrain> not really sure how to say that differently, sorry :)
10:43:05 <TrueBrain> they are in your build folder
10:43:06 <jlx_> you mean they are created during compilation?
10:43:16 <TrueBrain> that is the wording I was using, yes :)
10:44:09 <jlx_> share/games/openttd/lang/*.lng ?
10:44:31 <TrueBrain> in your build folder they exist; I do not know where your system leaves them after
10:44:39 <TrueBrain> but yes, that smells a lot like language files :)
10:45:33 <jlx_> hmm, I made a local install. Is it required to do a system install in order to find them?
10:45:58 <TrueBrain> I do not know your OS, nor your setup, nor what a "local install" means for you
10:46:04 <TrueBrain> but the executable needs to be able to find the language files
10:46:21 <TrueBrain> depending on how you compiled it, that can mean several different thing
10:46:29 <jlx_> Linux, I did a "cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/home/.../..."
10:53:52 <jlx_> I just created a symlink because it searched in the wrong dir
10:54:01 <jlx_> thanks anyways, TrueBrain
11:01:32 <peter1138> Hmm watch Wandavision they said...
11:29:15 <TrueBrain> I always like if you setup your code good enough, adding features is easy
11:29:21 <TrueBrain> adding variable support was like 5 lines of code :D
11:38:46 <andythenorth> I find I often need 5 lines
11:38:57 <andythenorth> sadly I have to write 100 to discover that
11:39:13 <andythenorth> mostly "print('foo is currently', foo)"
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12:06:19 <jlx_> I did a Linux install via "cmake -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/home/... .." and now OpenTTD complains about missing graphics (manual section 1.4). But the manual does not really tell me where to put the graphics.
12:06:46 <jlx_> if my CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX is a/b/c, where do the graphics and sounds need to be?
12:13:02 <nielsm> it should still be looking in the user profile
12:13:13 <nielsm> ~/.openttd/baseset/ I believe
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12:16:32 <andythenorth> 80+ vars for x and y
12:16:38 <jlx_> nielsm: almost! it now found the graphics, but complains about the music. Though I put opengfx and opensfx into "baseset"
12:16:38 * andythenorth copies from Tyler
12:17:34 <andythenorth> why is GetTileY using '/ map_x_edge'?
12:18:02 <andythenorth> is this some tile sequence thing?
12:19:38 <nielsm> so by dividing that by the map X edge you get the Y coordinate
12:20:24 * andythenorth wonders if we could teach nml to do this
12:20:43 * andythenorth teaches FIRS to do it meanwhile
12:20:48 <nielsm> row 0 has tiles 0 to 255, row 1 has tiles 256 to 511, row 2 has tiles 512 to 767, etc.
12:43:37 * andythenorth ponders hexagonal regions
12:48:38 <TrueBrain> hmm .. now to figure out how to do comparisons in a smart way ... it is tricky, as it means I need to generate several chains and emit switch-cases .. which I am currently not doing :D
12:48:42 <TrueBrain> more infrastructure needed! :P
12:49:43 * andythenorth wonders when to start porting FIRS to TrueGRF
12:50:05 <TrueBrain> I need alpha testers when this is done for sure :P
12:50:51 <andythenorth> it's either an impossible job, or an easy one :P
12:51:00 <andythenorth> FIRS has been ported 3 times already
12:51:19 <TrueBrain> I am using your FIRS 4.4, so that should be easy :P Not doing your "master" nonsense :P
12:51:33 <andythenorth> nfo -> nml with CPP templates and variadic macros -> nml with python templating
12:54:54 <nielsm> oh, you actually _can_ get a town's absolute map coordinate in GRF, with var 0x80 too
12:55:13 <nielsm> so yeah it is possible to geographically divide the towns on the map into zones
12:58:23 <andythenorth> different architecture styled north and south for example
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14:19:23 <jlx_> I have an openttd branch and some scripts that, combined, allow to export OpenTTD savefiles to graphs (via the dot tool) in PDF format. They aim is to let them look like typical subway maps. Should I work on a PR for this, or is it out of scope? The OpenTTD part consists of additions to YAPF and a "video driver" which does not display video, but just exports the map.
14:21:03 <nielsm> there isn't really any precedent for including that kind of data export tools yet
14:22:10 <nielsm> I think it'd be more likely to be accepted in a wholly different form, making a way for a gamescript to read the link graph and dump it to admin port
14:26:23 <frosch123> openttd is a game, keep tools external please :)
14:26:52 <frosch123> i would also think that everyone who can use "dot", probably can also compile ottd
14:29:06 <jlx_> yes, the tools are in an external repo
14:30:01 <jlx_> the video driver workaround is needed because I needed to drive the trains around a bit to get some result. This can probably done by script, too. Though we can also take the video driver solution now, and make a script version later which produces the same output
14:30:19 <nielsm> I believe frosch means that your OpenTTD patch that adds the data export is _also_ part of the tools, and so doesn't have a place in the main branch
14:30:49 <nielsm> look at the null video driver, it's already used for that kind of automation
14:31:22 <nielsm> it runs the game for a specified number of ticks, and you can have it run a console command script to trigger the export or something
14:32:35 <jlx_> I can take a look at this
14:32:44 <frosch123> just keep you branch separate from main ottd. i don't see much benefit in including it. everyone who would be able to use it (run ottd in special mode, run futher tools), would also be able to use your branch
14:42:09 <jlx_> What disadvantages do you see with adding export tools to the main branch? The advantages are clear to me, but the disadvantages? I'm just curious...
14:42:31 <jlx_> It's seems really unusual for open source projects
14:42:33 <nielsm> maintenance of a feature extremely few users will use
14:42:52 <nielsm> it will bitrot and/or be a burden to developers who don't have interest in it
14:43:24 <jlx_> I developped that thing 6 years ago, and rebasing it was just changing a few LOC, it was pretty easy. So the overhead seems minimal.
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15:06:30 <FLHerne> jlx_: Why is it necessary to drive trains about?
15:06:49 <LordAro> seems achievable just by reading the save file, imo
15:06:52 <LordAro> no need for OTTD at all
15:06:59 <FLHerne> I'd have thought any information you need for subway maps is either map data or orders
15:08:11 <FLHerne> Autogenerated subway maps sound nice, I've drawn a few manually
15:08:30 <FLHerne> although my track record of being able to make `dot` generate anything aesthetically tolerable is poor
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15:12:03 <nielsm> the link graph is definitely stored in the save file, because it needs to be distributed and in sync between all clients in multiplayer
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15:50:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #218: Request: Add variable for xy coordinates of industries https://git.io/JGqZ1
15:53:56 <andythenorth> did we discuss global random seed for newgrf recently?
15:54:44 <andythenorth> I am splitting the map into regions 1/3 each for industry location
15:55:07 <andythenorth> the order is consistent, but it would be nice to be able to randomly reverse it
15:55:48 <andythenorth> and randomly choose orientation if the map is square (e.g. NE->SW, SW->NE, NW->SE, SE->NW)
16:44:37 <jlx_> FLHerne: I'm not even 100% sure, because this code is so old, but I remember it was unavoidable back then. I wanted to know via which stations trains drive, even if they don't stop there.
16:46:27 <jlx_> I think intermediate stations (where a train does not stop) are not in the savefile.
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16:55:57 <andythenorth> should I bother doing more than simple quadrants? :P
16:56:36 <andythenorth> also to change the orientation wrt map, should I do a matrix transformation?
16:57:10 * andythenorth can only think of a lot of conditional statements measuring map size :(
17:02:26 <andythenorth> hmm each orientation is just n 90 degree rotations of the default?
17:03:16 <andythenorth> so 90 degree would min_x -> max_x, max_x -> min_y, min_y -> max_x, max_y -> min_x
17:03:30 <andythenorth> where is Eddi to tell me there's a better way? :9
17:06:29 <nielsm> 90 drgree rotation around origin at (0,0) is (x,y)=(y,-x), or (x,y)=(-y,x), depending on direction
17:06:56 <nielsm> so if you want to rotate around a point not at origin you'd translate that point to origin, apply rotation, translate back
17:08:40 <andythenorth> if it's just a simple quadrant, I could store [min_x, max_x, min_y, max_y] then just pop and append?
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17:16:11 <andythenorth> hmm not so simple in nml :P
17:16:35 * andythenorth was doing it in the python side of the compile, which results in a useless static result :P
17:16:38 <andythenorth> has to be switches
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17:45:13 <FLHerne> jlx_: correct (unless the user's added them as 'go via' orders for some reason)
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18:50:05 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:54:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
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18:56:42 <glx> hmm I don't remember it's possible to change company color in main menu
18:56:47 <Afdal> Was some kind of change made to the graphics zoom filtering recently?
18:56:58 <Afdal> I feel like the graphics when I'm zoomed out look worse than usual
19:00:32 <Afdal> Using the original TTD graphics here
19:00:50 <LordAro> how recently is recently?
19:00:56 <LordAro> (also, no, not that i recall)
19:01:36 <LordAro> plausibly opengl video renderer could make things look slightly different, but that's been around for a couple years now
19:01:48 <LordAro> and no one else has reported anything similar
19:02:27 <Afdal> well a friend I'm playing with feels similarly
19:02:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted https://git.io/J9GF8
19:02:54 <Afdal> zooming out is a bit of an eyesore now
19:03:22 <LordAro> you're welcome to download older versions to compare against
19:03:31 <Afdal> yeah I'll have to do that later
19:03:58 <Afdal> I think v1.11 was the last version I played
19:04:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted https://git.io/J9GF8
19:05:24 * LordAro waits for james to ask for a savegame
19:08:37 <Afdal> maybe I'm just going crazy
19:08:53 <Afdal> Too used to the smooth vectorized scaling of Mindustry :o
19:08:54 <LordAro> change of graphics card/monitor recently?
19:09:02 <Afdal> only thing that's changed is my distro
19:09:05 <LordAro> then maybe just you :)
19:09:14 <Afdal> moved from one Debian-based distro to another
19:09:19 <LordAro> though graphics driver could conceivably change something
19:09:29 <Afdal> yeah I'm looking at the game on an older version on a different computer
19:09:39 <Afdal> Maybe I was just imagining things
19:09:45 <Afdal> gotta get used to the look again...
19:10:49 <Afdal> what directory do graphics go in again?
19:10:52 <Afdal> so I can test this properly
19:11:06 <LordAro> documented in the readme :)
19:14:51 <Afdal> Yep okay, guess I temporarily lost my mind
19:14:56 <Afdal> there's been no change to the graphics
19:15:05 <Afdal> Just gotta get used to OpenTTD jaggies again :)
19:15:21 <Afdal> I've been spoiled on games with vectorized graphics
19:15:44 <LordAro> for some reason, lots of people like z/abase
19:16:09 <Afdal> I actually remember not liking that the last time I tried it
19:16:17 <Afdal> for the same reason I prefer the original TTD graphics
19:16:27 <Afdal> the open stuff looks too sterile for me tbh
19:17:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:17:27 <Afdal> though arguably the open stuff handles zooming better
19:17:37 <Afdal> since it's higher resolution
19:27:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
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19:28:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:40:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:41:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted https://git.io/J9GF8
19:45:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:52:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:54:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted https://git.io/J9GF8
19:54:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #9785: [Bug]: v12.1 All off-shore oil railway tracks and station deleted https://git.io/J9GF8
19:55:31 <frosch123> haha, that's the first thing i thought... just did not know how to ask about it politely :p
19:56:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:57:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
19:58:11 <LordAro> frosch123: ah, so your crystal ball is working today?
20:00:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
20:01:42 <frosch123> yeah, it's a bad gui :)
20:02:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
20:03:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
20:03:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
20:04:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh reopened issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
20:04:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9784: [Bug]: v12.1 Cannot change company colour sceme once game starts https://git.io/J9GFm
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20:10:22 <peter1138> Not a regression, it has absolutely always been that way in that window.
20:10:43 <nielsm> it was better in very old versions
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20:18:29 <glx> didn't clicking on the "label" used to click on the "arrow" ?
20:18:41 <LordAro> at the very least it should do that
20:22:07 <Afdal> ugh, ctrl-clicking only toggles path signals types now?
20:22:15 <Afdal> How do I set that back to the default behavior?
20:22:44 <glx> there's a button on top right of the signal window
20:22:51 <Afdal> that's only for placing them
20:22:58 <Afdal> I want the ctrl-click behavior back
20:23:12 <Afdal> it's too tedious to click back and forth between signals types on the selection window
20:23:25 <glx> yes the button will enable advanced block signals
20:23:46 <Afdal> Yes, it allows for their selection from the window
20:23:58 <Afdal> what it doesn't do is allow for their selection when toggling signals by cycling
20:24:04 <Afdal> Well I'm not seein it...
20:24:11 <andythenorth> frosch123 I'm not missing some obvious thing I can use for global random in grf? :)
20:24:17 <glx> anyway you can also check in the settings
20:25:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: didn't we discuss that the other day?
20:25:18 <frosch123> somehow the game-id got lots in discussion
20:25:27 <frosch123> currently you only have start-year :p
20:26:29 <andythenorth> start year could work, but I tend to use 'newgame' a lot :P
20:26:56 <andythenorth> is there any reason to not expose the map seed (other than 'work')?
20:27:24 <frosch123> i found an old discussion in a PR
20:28:00 <frosch123> the idea was to use a separate new seed, which would change when starting a game from mapgen, heightmap or scenario
20:28:11 <frosch123> map seed only works for mapgen
20:28:23 <frosch123> but the PR was closed for something else
20:28:42 <supermop_Home> ooh i want that for bus stops
20:28:56 <andythenorth> I closed 5487 as 'not making progress'
20:29:13 <frosch123> oh, i did not find that one
20:29:22 <frosch123> that one is more like "make it similar to ai/gs"
20:29:24 <andythenorth> grf spec change seems to demand 'at least one valid use case so someone actually tests it'
20:29:32 <andythenorth> but the spec can't just be for one use case
20:29:39 <andythenorth> goldilocks problem
20:29:55 <supermop_Home> use case is random style of bus stop roofs per game
20:30:21 <andythenorth> anyway I just want to orientate regions on a map N-S or S-N
20:30:31 <andythenorth> and the other various directions, depending on map shape
20:37:55 <glx> you have action D var13 for that
20:40:17 <glx> I think map_XXX in nml uses that
20:49:39 <andythenorth> yeah I missed 'random' out of my use case above :)
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21:20:36 <Gustavo6046> I will transport chemicals from the FIRS port to the metal workshop
21:20:42 <Gustavo6046> It definitely does not include lysergic acid diethylamide
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21:25:09 <Afdal> Is there some way to map zooming to something other than scrollwheel?
21:27:27 <nielsm> and of course clicking the buttons on the toolbar
21:28:07 <andythenorth> Gustavo6046 Steel Town has ACID and COKE
21:28:18 <andythenorth> and a rolling mill
21:29:26 <Gustavo6046> I was sure most people wouldn't recognize the full name and would just think "oh, probably some random boring reactant from some boring industrial process"
21:29:34 <Gustavo6046> but yeah you were quick to catch it!
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22:58:06 <andythenorth> the industry map-scaling was never tuned for lots of industry types :P
22:58:35 <andythenorth> FIRS Steeltown does ok with 31 industries
22:58:53 <andythenorth> I have another economy with 40 industries, and it's only placing 1 or 2 of most of them
22:59:17 <andythenorth> 512x256, 'normal' industry density
23:09:39 <andythenorth> GG andythenorth WP, broke it again :D
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