IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-12-17
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03:06:41 <basxto> Just got two questions: Are there rules for how newGRF readmes should be styled? (line length, decoration characters ...)
03:06:44 <basxto> And is there an external tool that takes a town name newGRFs and generates town lists like ingame (for playing around and also for easier testing)
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10:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of (to both questions)
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10:59:00 <basxto> mhm okay, I’ll just see what line lingths look good with the default window size, the readme gets opened with
11:00:26 <basxto> is theer a way other than having a custom openttd.cfg to start a game with just a given newGRF file?
11:04:33 <basxto> currently I have something in [newgrf] defined, but that seems to break when the version changes (probably because the folder structure inside the tar changes, but I don’t fully understand it)
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11:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure what you're trying to achieve. but the game tends to be conservative with newgrf changes, as that tends to break savegames and other stuff
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12:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> jason momoa (what exact game are we playing?)
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13:35:34 <dP> oh crap, new DoCommand is already merged
13:35:40 <dP> planned to review it this weekend :(
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16:16:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb commented on issue #9743: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashes on startup (MacBook Pro 2020, M1) https://git.io/JDCuI
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16:30:32 <basxto> Eddi|zuHause: well, I tinker with a newGRF and want to launch a test game, but it seems to be enough when I just only set the grafid and leave the rest blank. I’m currently launch it with openttd -x -g -c run/openttd.cfg
16:31:00 <LordAro> SpComb: trying to take down the java-based irc loggers/clients?
16:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> basxto: you can try keeping the game open, and run "reload_newgrfs" (beware of crashes, depending what you change)
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16:37:25 <basxto> I’m changing a town names newgrf, but combined with `restart` that one could be interesting
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17:20:36 <andythenorth> please notify me when 2021 is over, I'm going to sleep
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18:08:03 <frosch123> hmm, i guess i finally reached the dead end, when i need to migrate the coop hg stuff
18:08:35 <frosch123> i postponed distro update because i did want to resetup the hg-git magic afterwards
18:08:42 <frosch123> but now i need a new compiler to compile ottd :p
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18:11:37 <frosch123> wow, one of the bananas users has a 5-digit github-user-id
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18:13:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino https://git.io/JD6TW
18:14:40 <glx> is that equivalent to 8-digit ICQ id ?
18:16:42 <frosch123> signed up in first 3 months
18:17:08 <frosch123> well, technically in the 4th
18:17:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino https://git.io/JD6Td
18:17:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #112: Change: migrate OpenTTD user LaPingvino to GitHub user lapingvino https://git.io/JD6TW
18:17:59 <TrueBrain> impressive frosch123
18:19:11 <frosch123> though i have no idea how founding of the company correlates with startup of the website
18:19:17 <frosch123> maybe they worked at gh?
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18:20:22 <frosch123> ah, wiki knows the dates. so they signed up 1 month after beta ended
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19:52:05 <michi_cc> ^ That's better than any answer I could think of.
20:02:48 <dP> good answer for a wrong question :p
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20:03:04 <dP> I never doubted that it's a good refactoring
20:03:14 <LordAro> dP: there's very little actionable in your comment, as i read it
20:03:28 <LordAro> it very much read as "i don't like change"
20:03:33 <dP> problem is that impact is way bigger
20:03:52 <dP> well, what actionable you expect when pr is already merged??
20:04:08 <LordAro> well, vaguely specific issues would be a start
20:05:09 <dP> honestly my biggest issue is that is only being discussed after it's merged
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20:05:27 <dP> it's like noone even stopped for a second to think how this would impact community
20:06:28 <dP> encoding - check, decoding - check, approve, merge, done
20:20:55 <frosch12> i should more often use the term "community" when i mean "I"
20:21:58 <frosch12> anyway, there is a list-commands api on the admin port
20:22:14 <frosch12> it can probably extended to give a list of (int, int, bool, string, ...)
20:22:23 <frosch12> the template magic should allow that
20:24:32 <frosch12> at my old company some CS guy once joined a team mostly consisting of engineers
20:25:13 <frosch12> he started using templates a lot, until the engineers took out the pitchforks
20:25:26 <frosch12> i think it needed like 5 hours to explain them the advantages, and then it was fine :)
20:26:09 <frosch12> it's just too easy for people to try to burn stuff they are not used to
20:26:15 <dP> by "community" I mean, for example btpro
20:26:27 <dP> though by the looks of it you kinda murdered it already with 12.0
20:26:42 <dP> but command change would probably be a nice final nail in the coffin
20:27:15 <dP> as I suspect their whole "undo" system relies on that admin port thing
20:27:50 <glx> it may be easier to do with the new format
20:28:02 <frosch12> what does it change? if someone builds something which relies on any observable behavior, you cannot ever change anythign
20:28:21 <frosch12> so "your community" can just assume 11.1 was the last release ever
20:28:22 <dP> glx, maybe but it needs a complete rewrite and they have no coders
20:29:00 <frosch12> if the only thing you accept is "nothing may change", just stick with the same version, tags don't change
20:29:36 <frosch12> and saying A must not change things, because B has noone to update stuff, what's even the point?
20:30:04 <dP> frosch12, it's one thing to say "we break a, b, c" because and onother is to not even bother documenting a braking change of supposedly stable api :p
20:30:31 <frosch12> what stable API was broken?
20:30:45 <frosch12> contents of p1 and p2 were never stable
20:30:53 <michi_cc> The only stable thing on the admin port API was the number of bytes send. Contents was never stable.
20:30:56 <dP> yeah, but packet structure changed
20:31:08 <dP> anything that worked with that call is likely broken
20:31:24 <LordAro> regardless, this is only going into the next major version
20:31:29 <LordAro> we're allowed to break things in major versions
20:31:45 <LordAro> (perhaps it could be documented better, but we're a long way off that being necessary)
20:31:47 <michi_cc> Well, would have been exactly the same if we'd added a p3 because some number finally got too big.
20:32:31 <glx> true, the packet structure changed, but if any format of p1 or p2 would change while keeping the packet, it would also break but unnoticably
20:32:40 <dP> I know it's an inevitable change, I'm just talking about the way it's presented
20:33:28 <frosch12> what did you expect? a RFC and 6 months for parties to reply?
20:33:49 <glx> I like the idea of request for command list and data format from the admin client
20:34:16 <glx> something similar to savegame chunk headers
20:34:33 <frosch12> glx: getting the "name" of the command parameters may be harder :)
20:34:44 <frosch12> the types you can probably get via the template magic
20:34:57 <dP> frosch12, doing at least something about it :p
20:34:59 <frosch12> TrueBrain: that was me :)
20:35:21 <michi_cc> Yeah, stringify is the one thing you still need the preprocessor for :)
20:35:22 <dP> yeah, sending some kind of schema would help admin port immensely and probably not only admin port
20:35:56 <glx> btw some doxygen comments require an update (mostly the tuple return ones)
20:36:18 <LordAro> would be a good use for some sort of doxygen group
20:38:59 <frosch12> it may also be possible to put the command-handler declaration into the DEF_CMD_TRAIT macro, so the macro gets the parameter names and expands into botht the trait stuff and the command-handler function declaration
20:39:00 <glx> oh cmake could probably populate a table with the names
20:40:31 <Xaroth> could always use some XML file with an XLS transformer to build the relevant source files /s
20:41:01 <frosch12> does XSLT support JDNI?
20:41:05 <andythenorth> isn't that how we build grfs now?
20:41:19 <Xaroth> I'm sur ethat can be implemented.
20:41:27 <andythenorth> can we extend grf spec that way?
20:41:47 <andythenorth> if we convert to java, can grfs just inject new java classe?
20:42:12 * andythenorth is aware that -vulns- features are not _caused_ by the language
20:42:27 <andythenorth> oh there was a java port of openttd on github?
20:42:38 <frosch12> andythenorth: i played ottd with the team@work this week. they commented on: we download a zip, when we start the binary it prompts us to download more stuff (baseset), and when we join the game it prompts again to download even more stuff
20:42:52 <andythenorth> never download anything
20:43:50 <frosch12> andythenorth: the ottd java port ported ottd 0.4.something, so they probably used log4j 1.x :p
20:44:12 <dP> frosch12, did you only realise this issue now when it's kinda fixed with steam? :p
20:44:46 <glx> hey at least openttd always ask before doing anything
20:45:15 <dP> it scans saved servers without asking anything
20:45:35 <glx> but the player added them to the list
20:45:51 <dP> iirc they get added automatically
20:45:54 <frosch12> bananas list is also queried directly when opening the gui
20:46:11 <frosch12> i had a similar idea for the multiplayer list, but then the tropic got zorged
20:46:17 <dP> btw, I'm not saying that's bad
20:46:32 <dP> yeah, mp list should be auto queried imo
20:46:37 <dP> I even did that in cmclient
20:47:08 <frosch12> TrueBrain: want a cookie? i may be baking in the next 2 weeks
20:47:21 <TrueBrain> do you bring it over?
20:47:24 <glx> and zorg has a point about the LAN/internet split
20:47:40 <glx> it's not really user friendly
20:48:20 <frosch12> my idea for multiplayer list was to make it like a tab-box: 3 buttons at top "public", "private", "LAN"
20:48:35 <frosch12> "private" contains the saved servers + invite codes
20:48:41 <frosch12> the other two lists scan for servers
20:48:50 <frosch12> ottd remembers the tab selection
20:49:05 <frosch12> so, if people only use the public tab, they get scaned immediately
20:49:09 <dP> I was thinking of some favorite mark for servers
20:49:25 <frosch12> TrueBrain: i already have another holiday project
20:49:42 <frosch12> cookies won't take that long :p
20:50:13 <TrueBrain> fixing log4j correctly? (by doing it in Python)
20:50:17 <dP> while we're on the tropic, join button should download newgrfs if it can, at most just ask for confirmation
20:50:28 <frosch12> shall i become your manager and tell you what to do? i can do it on a "the computer should read the authors' mind" level
20:50:29 <glx> btw #9745 needs to be reviewed ;)
20:50:51 <TrueBrain> okay, I am out of guesses .. what will your holiday project be? :D
20:50:59 <frosch12> glx: did you ask the community?
20:51:19 <glx> no API changes, I'm safe ;)
20:51:20 <Xaroth> The community declares that they were not asked.
20:52:05 <frosch12> glx: the AIs can no longer read the new-game settings when started on a dedicated server
20:52:08 <frosch12> that is an API change
20:53:41 <TrueBrain> frosch12: now telllll mmmeeeeeeeeee
20:56:46 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: frosch is being mean
20:56:47 <frosch12> don't worry, i'll only make a prototype, and then ask the community whether to continue or burn it
20:57:39 <TrueBrain> lol .. now I am really curious :D
20:57:54 <TrueBrain> as long as it doesn't require a DHCP server to do basic math ...
20:59:07 <michi_cc> Isn't basic math nowadays done by getting apropriate operator classes via JNDI?
20:59:19 * andythenorth needs a holiday project
20:59:27 <andythenorth> currently it's 'the world is burning'
20:59:31 <andythenorth> which is getting boring
20:59:43 <TrueBrain> am I your holiday project? pretty eyes
20:59:58 <Xaroth> andythenorth: log4ottd.
21:00:28 <andythenorth> do we ship any exciting vulns?
21:00:34 <andythenorth> there must be one somewhere
21:00:49 <frosch12> TrueBrain: my project is in danger of being zorged when published, i may send them to truegrf for distraction
21:01:24 <frosch12> andythenorth: pretty sure you can find buffer-overruns exploitable by newgrf
21:04:52 <andythenorth> we've made a noun of it now?
21:05:00 <andythenorth> Horse got zorged
21:08:01 <frosch12> oh, i thought you were referring to that, when you asked about "next year" earlier today
21:09:10 <andythenorth> only just found it :P
21:09:41 <andythenorth> it's 2 days ago eh
21:09:43 * andythenorth behind the curve
21:10:11 <TrueBrain> so you just finished patching? GOI AGAIN! :)
21:11:45 <frosch12> depends whether you went for the "upgrade version" or "delete class in jar" route :)
21:12:56 <frosch12> aw, now i remember the information my company deployed to its customers...
21:13:39 <frosch12> it was basically a copy&paste from other sources with a friendly "patch it yourself" :p
21:14:34 <glx> log4j seems to contain very complex features many users don't even need
21:15:35 <glx> but it still open the door
21:16:14 <frosch12> andythenorth: that article seems outdates as well. the *fun* part of the new CVE was: it was first classified with score 3, and then upgraded to 9 this morning
21:16:36 <TrueBrain> at least it is not a 10
21:17:02 <TrueBrain> I am happy you got the reference :P
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21:20:57 <andythenorth> we don't even have to patch
21:21:07 <andythenorth> we just have to contact every single vendor to find out if they've patched
21:21:23 <andythenorth> it's a real fucker, because in many cases the answers are really not good enough
21:21:38 <andythenorth> there was a real 'yolo christmas' attitude going on
21:23:00 <frosch12> well, at least 2.16 does the change that everyone thought would have been the correct fix for the first CVE, instead of the weird thing that was 2.15
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21:54:09 <SpComb> nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure
21:56:06 <frosch12> too late, it has already left the planet. it spread to mars vehicles
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21:56:56 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we're doing it wrong :)
21:57:01 <andythenorth> but probably all fine, right?
21:57:44 <frosch12> lol, they actually deleted the tweet i quoted yesterday
21:58:04 <frosch12> SpComb: yeah, i was just searching for it, i linked it here two days ago
21:58:37 <frosch12> it was june or july this year, barely a half year ago
22:00:06 <andythenorth> deleting tweets is the new in thing
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22:07:03 <frosch12> back to memes: the new CVE is labeled "return of the JNDI"
22:09:10 <andythenorth> at least we still have lolz
22:10:05 <frosch12> i like that string that combines patterns of JNDI, bash, SQL, ... escaping tests :)
22:16:49 <frosch12> so many new memes \o/
22:18:21 <andythenorth> the iOS exploit I pasted this morning was quite interesting
22:18:30 <andythenorth> not nearly as funny, but really incredibly smart
22:18:50 <andythenorth> remember I used to joke about encoding nfo via bitmaps?
22:18:58 <andythenorth> and reading them with PIL
22:19:11 <andythenorth> pretty much that
22:19:31 <frosch12> for which agency are you working?
22:19:44 <frosch12> or do you sell to everyone?
22:20:09 <andythenorth> I can only offer bugs
22:20:17 <andythenorth> probably negative market value
22:21:28 <glx> andy is good at finding bugs
22:22:10 <glx> you really should try the nml station thing, if there are bugs you'll probably find them :)
22:22:48 <andythenorth> I really should try the nml station thing
22:22:54 <andythenorth> how much CHIPS did you convert? :D
22:23:17 <glx> it's not a real conversion, mostly a test of the implementatin
22:23:45 <andythenorth> ok so I'm not duplicating effort if I start converting
22:23:47 <glx> I converted cow pen as an example in nml source tree
22:23:50 <andythenorth> or reimplement from scratch
22:24:28 <glx> and magic tiles as an advanced testing
22:25:40 <glx> it works but may not be the best way to do it
22:27:49 <andythenorth> ok CHIPS soon :)
22:29:36 <glx> btw direct conversion of CHIPS is not possible, because nml only supports 2 different versions for callbacks, while CHIPS uses 3
22:30:41 <glx> CHIPS does cargo, non-cargo and purchase, NML only has cargo and purchase
22:31:31 <frosch12> ah you mean the "sprite for unknown cargo"
22:32:08 <glx> CHIPS has 3 different cb14 chains
22:32:37 <glx> while nml only supports cb14 and cb14_purchase
22:32:58 <glx> because for most features it's enough :)
22:33:00 <frosch12> but why 3? isn't it purchase+unknown+(any known cargo), so up to 256 cases?
22:33:37 <frosch12> oh, right... it also matters for the callback, not just the sprites
22:34:31 <frosch12> yeah, i think it's a good idea to not add that to nml :)
22:35:24 <glx> the "unknown" is easy to work around when coding in nml, just use an invisible cargo
22:36:18 <frosch12> the cargotype only matters for the little/lots stuff, it's weird that chips uses different layouts as well
22:36:58 <glx> one layout per different non cargo decoration yes
22:37:05 * andythenorth might just restart from scratch :)
22:37:11 <andythenorth> I'll never understand it properly otherwise
22:37:32 <glx> while it could use advanced feature of the advanced layout it already uses
22:38:05 <glx> in my test conversion I used only one layout
22:39:09 <glx> but doing that in pure NFO would have been a real pain
22:39:28 * andythenorth must to sleep :)
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22:40:15 <glx> managing all the var10 thing by "hand"
22:41:01 <glx> while being also templated
22:51:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9745: Fix #9720: Delay start of GS/AI to after loading of savegame https://git.io/JD6XK
22:53:55 <frosch12> sorry, mostly asking questions. to tired to look it up myself :)
23:07:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9745: Fix #9720: Delay start of GS/AI to after loading of savegame https://git.io/JD61p
23:11:10 <glx> oh indeed the enum can be enclosed in the ScriptInstance class
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