IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-12-05
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00:32:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] a2aaron updated pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JMyJH
00:36:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] a2aaron commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JM71M
00:54:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JM7yC
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01:09:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] a2aaron updated pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JMyJH
01:23:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] a2aaron commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JM7Q6
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10:57:17 <TrueBrain> ha, now every industry produces coal; owh yeah!
10:57:47 <andythenorth> why didn't I automate syncing docs to S3 yet? :P
10:58:26 <andythenorth> it's the AWS captcha on login that kills me :P
11:00:50 <andythenorth> hmm Github has repo size limits on free?
11:00:54 <andythenorth> I have 500MB of docs repo
11:02:15 <TrueBrain> use Cloudflare Pages, we said not? :)
11:02:33 <andythenorth> that's why I didn't automate S3 yet :P
11:02:51 <TrueBrain> happy to be your PA
11:03:02 <andythenorth> it's a collaborative project
11:03:47 <TrueBrain> right, I had to make a CTT .. hhmmmmm
11:03:55 <TrueBrain> one of those things that is just annoying to predict
11:06:12 <TrueBrain> clearly I am writing something original, as GitHub CoPilot doesn't really know what to add. With industries that was a bit different :P
11:13:09 <TrueBrain> it really is insane how spot-on it sometimes is
11:13:56 <TrueBrain> maybe I should record what it does ...
11:19:16 <TrueBrain> ha, bam, did the CTT right in one go
11:21:11 <andythenorth> how the hell does it even do this? :P
11:21:57 <TrueBrain> really, I have no clue
11:22:11 <TrueBrain> I am very sure that this code is unique, so it really deduce it based on the current code already there
11:22:38 <andythenorth> it was even a question that co-pilot might replace engineers?
11:23:47 <TrueBrain> people tend to heavily underestimate the impact of such disruptive technology
11:24:54 <TrueBrain> similar that people were like: robots, pfft, they can't take over tasks from REAL HUMANS
11:25:00 <andythenorth> 60 years of programming, people still think the important bit is typing out the code? :P
11:25:05 <TrueBrain> and sure, the work humans need to do, will need to shift
11:25:09 <TrueBrain> but this will have an impact on how you do work
11:25:19 <andythenorth> it will be excellent
11:25:28 <TrueBrain> focus on the stuff that matters
11:25:31 <TrueBrain> instead of some syntax blabla
11:25:48 <andythenorth> or managing that you wrote an unterminated loop, again
11:25:53 <andythenorth> for the nth time in your career
11:26:02 <TrueBrain> right, so a coalmine is a primary industry, right?
11:26:09 <TrueBrain> what is a power station called?
11:26:14 <TrueBrain> and what is a factory called?
11:26:17 <TrueBrain> I can never remember :P
11:26:19 <andythenorth> power station is tertiary or black hole
11:26:23 <andythenorth> factory is secondary
11:27:36 <andythenorth> spec uses different words but eh
11:28:24 <andythenorth> factory is 'processing' in nml
11:28:34 <TrueBrain> I was looking for your wording
11:28:48 <TrueBrain> I always confuse secondary and tertiary
11:28:51 <TrueBrain> so better to check :D
11:32:36 <TrueBrain> right, did the most important thing .. made coal mines produce more coal a month
11:32:41 <TrueBrain> achievement unlocked
11:33:09 <andythenorth> irc lacks emoji reactions
11:33:31 <TrueBrain> now the question .. how to represent this in the GUI .. hmmmm
11:35:18 <TrueBrain> especially secondary industries are a bit of a challenge
11:36:20 <andythenorth> what do you have so far?
11:37:39 <TrueBrain> Can an industry be both primary and secondary in OpenTTD .. hmm
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11:37:57 <andythenorth> prop 0B implies not
11:38:12 <andythenorth> but the mapping between prop 0B and what's useful in a grf is imperfect
11:38:54 <andythenorth> an industry can both both produce without input (primary) and process anything that is delivered
11:39:07 <andythenorth> we don't really have a name for those
11:40:21 <TrueBrain> I dont even define 0B :P
11:41:16 <TrueBrain> I am a bit tempted to just make a dropdown: primary / secondary / tertiary
11:41:22 <TrueBrain> and don't allow hybrids
11:41:27 <andythenorth> 0B affects e.g. funding vs. prospecting
11:42:36 <TrueBrain> yeah, going to do that for now. Aligns with 0B, and we can always change it
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12:05:07 <TrueBrain> I just wrote "if industry.r#type == "primary" {"
12:05:11 <TrueBrain> CoPilot finished the block
12:05:19 <TrueBrain> it only got the property wrong
12:32:10 <TrueBrain> right .. primary and tertiary were easy to design
12:32:15 <TrueBrain> secondary however .. that is a complex matrix :P
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13:23:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic opened pull request #9732: Feature: Added hotkeys to tooltips and dropdown menu's https://git.io/JMdhu
13:33:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic updated pull request #9732: Feature: Added hotkeys to tooltips and dropdown menu's https://git.io/JMdhu
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13:41:29 <TrueBrain> within 3 months, all secondary/tertiary industries closed
13:41:33 <TrueBrain> I think I made a boo-boo somewhere :D
13:54:32 <TrueBrain> hmm .. industry says: accepts coal
14:06:23 <nielsm> did you remember to set acceptances on the industry tiles?
14:06:54 <nielsm> (or the "accepts whatever the industry consumes" flag)
14:07:51 <TrueBrain> its funny, I have 3 industries, and 2 do kinda what I expect, and 1 doesn't :D But yeah, most likely I forgot to set something somewhere :D
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14:09:56 <TrueBrain> but I am reusing tiles from the original game still, so there is the issue I think :) Lets find out!
14:11:37 <TrueBrain> now to understand how secondary production actually works .. as clearly nothing is happening :D
14:12:41 <TrueBrain> ah, it does work, but my value was too low :D
14:13:18 <TrueBrain> w00p ... working custom industries + cargo
14:14:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JMFtj
14:19:16 <TrueBrain> hmm, for some reason I cannot build rail .. guess there are no wagons available? I should fix cargo classes :)
14:21:48 <TrueBrain> but indeed nothing is available
14:23:37 <TrueBrain> okay, because I didn't have PASS and MAIL .. lol
14:24:03 <TrueBrain> why does that matter, I wonder ...
14:37:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic updated pull request #9732: Feature: Added hotkeys to tooltips and dropdown menu's https://git.io/JMdhu
14:42:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9732: Feature: Added hotkeys to tooltips and dropdown menu's https://git.io/JMFs1
14:51:14 <TrueBrain> where is frosch123 or andythenorth when you need them? :P
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14:52:34 <nielsm> TrueBrain: your call has been heeded
14:53:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: can cargo be both Powderized and Not Pourable? Or are the extra options radio-boxes (instead of check-boxes)? :D
14:54:24 <frosch123> pff, you welcome me with a political question? :p
14:56:11 <frosch123> i would go with checkboxes for now
14:56:59 <TrueBrain> it looks really weird, but sure :)
14:57:59 <frosch123> powder / not-pourable is probably not combinable, but if you turn them into a radiogroup, you would have to find a name for the third option, which is hard :)
14:58:44 <nielsm> a pourable non-powder mostly sounds like a liquid
14:59:00 <frosch123> you would have to go for something like: "normal bulk"/"not pourable"/"powder"
14:59:12 <TrueBrain> anyway, frosch123 , why do I have no trains when I don't have the cargo PASS / MAIL?
14:59:31 <frosch123> you are lucky the game did not crash then :p
14:59:40 <TrueBrain> the engines are not refittable ..
14:59:59 <TrueBrain> I now made PASS / MAIL / GOOD mandatory, as otherwise Towns were also annoying (without GOOD)
15:00:06 <TrueBrain> guess for other climates a similar issue happens :)
15:00:30 <TrueBrain> I also noticed that the ID of GOOD is important
15:00:36 <TrueBrain> I cannot put it on another ID :)
15:01:49 <frosch123> WATR is for water-towers which are an industry
15:01:54 <frosch123> the problem is only with houses
15:02:06 <TrueBrain> lol, FOOD is express + refrigerated, which is not a valid combination according to the table in the specs? :P
15:02:12 <frosch123> so, PAX, MAIL, GOODS, FOOD, FIZZY DRINKS, SWEETS
15:02:44 <frosch123> i would expect FOOD to be piece goods
15:03:25 <frosch123> looks like EXPRESS is also a primary class then
15:03:41 <TrueBrain> I can also just not follow the default
15:03:41 <frosch123> express/armoured are weird classes :)
15:03:44 <TrueBrain> wtf is "express" even? :P
15:04:37 <frosch123> i think "express" is mostly "high quality goods"
15:05:09 <frosch123> while "piece" is raw stuff like steel or wood
15:05:37 <frosch123> there are always exceptions :) livestock fits with nothing
15:05:54 <frosch123> livestock is neither PAX nor a raw resource :)
15:07:09 <TrueBrain> well, I restricted some selections for now .. can always be changed :P
15:07:28 <TrueBrain> and added those default cargoes .. and you are not allowed to modify their ID/Label/Classes
15:07:32 <TrueBrain> but you can change their name / unit
15:15:39 <TrueBrain> I appreciate feedback :)
15:16:21 <TrueBrain> you cannot add cargoes for industries yet
15:16:23 <TrueBrain> but you can set the multipliers :)
15:17:01 <TrueBrain> and you can now actually move coal and produce chemicals :D
15:17:05 <TrueBrain> with both trucks and trains!!! :D
15:18:15 <frosch123> express breaks every schema :)
15:21:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9733: Codechange: do not use all upper case enumerators in a scoped enum https://git.io/JMF49
15:21:40 <frosch123> i assume "industry mechanics" is scheduled for "later"?
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15:27:05 <frosch123> oh, a cody style discussion :)
15:27:23 <frosch123> i love how the world uses either all-caps or all-lowercase for enums, and we go for CamelCase :p
15:33:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] rubidium42 opened pull request #15: Change: update coding style for scoped enumerators (OpenTTD#9733) https://git.io/JMF0Z
15:35:56 <Rubidium> so... how many people have to agree with those PRs? Or should I also make another PR for the inverse (making the CamelCase ones UPPER_CASE), and see which has more support
15:37:02 <frosch123> nah, just find someone to approve it. i have no strong opinion :)
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15:46:04 * andythenorth has been to Tesco though
15:47:39 <peter1138> 98.19km... so damn close. Oh well.
15:48:45 <peter1138> And the rest of the group cut short the ride but I wasn't with them as I didn't want to cram into a tiny coffee shop.
15:49:36 <peter1138> ... cut the ride short ...
15:54:26 <andythenorth> oof you could have gone around the block :P
15:54:35 <andythenorth> or 900m of riding in a circle :P
15:58:18 <peter1138> Garmin was out of juice half way, rest was recorded via Strava app, so I didn't know how far I'd done.
15:58:32 <peter1138> 2 hours is "a bit" crap
16:10:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] TrueBrain commented on pull request #15: Change: update coding style for scoped enumerators (OpenTTD#9733) https://git.io/JMFVE
16:10:31 <TrueBrain> frosch123: define "industry mechanics" ? :)
16:12:58 <frosch123> "cargo is processed immediately" vs "cargo is processed gradually", "all input cargos are equal" vs "some are required, others are bonus", ...
16:13:54 <frosch123> "production changes randomly" vs "production depends on bonus cargo supply"
16:14:21 <TrueBrain> I wad already happy I figured out the Matrix for secondary industries :p
16:15:07 <andythenorth> just allow a text box for pasting in a function :P
16:15:24 <andythenorth> 'copy-paste FIRS code here'
16:15:28 <TrueBrain> Where is that other stuff defined frosch123? Or custom cbs?
16:15:57 <TrueBrain> Ah, yeah, future work for sure
16:16:05 <frosch123> i don't think anyone uses the matrix :p
16:16:26 <TrueBrain> It took me 30 minutes to figure out how to implement that!!!!!! :p
16:16:53 <frosch123> you are a pioneer, noone did that before :)
16:18:02 <TrueBrain> I love that nothing indicates any of that ;)
16:18:34 <TrueBrain> most of that 30 minutes was finding out how the hell React handles these kind of complex things
16:18:38 <TrueBrain> I made pretty Typescript code :P
16:21:21 <TrueBrain> but yeah, custom CBs for sure is the plan.
16:21:37 <TrueBrain> can you make a NewGRF where the industry decides the price you get for cargo?
16:21:49 <TrueBrain> as in, independent on distance etc
16:22:19 <TrueBrain> cargo has no access to the industries it is delivering too?
16:22:44 <frosch123> there is a GH dicussion and a PR about that stuff. it's GS/NewGRF politics
16:23:14 <frosch123> there is also a GH issue about "you cannot remove PAX/MAIL", but i do not recommend to investigate that rabbit hole :)
16:23:36 <TrueBrain> lot of blabla to catch up to
16:24:03 <TrueBrain> but yeah, my main focus for now is to get it working in a way you can truly make your own NewGRF ..
16:24:11 <TrueBrain> and we will start to add functionalities from there
16:24:26 <frosch123> basically, production mechanics is a detailed explored terrain with many options for newgrf. but anything with money is uncharted terrain :)
16:25:03 <frosch123> the reason i brought up production mechanics is, because yesterday you mentioned graphics for no-production/producing
16:25:22 <frosch123> and those two states do not really exist if you go with the default "process immediately"
16:25:31 <TrueBrain> ah ... did not know
16:25:46 <TrueBrain> well, guess I do not have to worry about that for now then :P
16:25:56 <frosch123> though.. maybe you could use the statistics "produced this month / last month"
16:26:28 <TrueBrain> I really suspect that TrueGRF will break out of the "default" way of doing stuff, and will start presenting other "default" ways of doing stuff that are just big custom CBs :P
16:26:33 <TrueBrain> will be interesting to see how that turns out
16:26:37 <frosch123> but whatever you go with those graphics, it will be opinionated, so think options for production mechanics also have to be opinionated
16:26:43 <TrueBrain> I already kinda did that with "placement"
16:29:40 <TrueBrain> at least currently I cannot believe I can actually make chemicals .. it is nice :D
16:30:33 <TrueBrain> and I am happy by default OpenTTD can transport it :P
16:32:37 <TrueBrain> owh, I also need to parse {SIGNED_WORD}, {VOLUME}, etc ... that will also be interesting :D
16:33:26 <TrueBrain> also need a palette selector, for industry colours and cargo colours ... so many small things to add :P
16:34:14 <frosch123> the cargo amount strings should be opinionated again :)
16:34:21 <frosch123> there are not many strings, which make sense
16:34:34 <frosch123> either mass, volume, or some packaging unit
16:34:50 <frosch123> maybe you can avoid exposing SIGNED_WORD here
16:35:07 <TrueBrain> I wasn't sure about the location of the string
16:35:14 <TrueBrain> like if it could always be a prefix
16:35:27 <frosch123> for colors i defer to andy, i believe it is the most annoying topic to pick many different colors for things you rarely see in the game
16:35:37 <frosch123> like cargo colors only appear in the charts noone looks at
16:37:06 <frosch123> colors are also a thing you would not want to set on a "single industry basis". you need to see all colors of all industries at once, to make a decision
16:37:33 <TrueBrain> ideally on a minimap
16:37:55 <frosch123> so you could also reverse it: instead of assigning colors to industries/cargos, have a list of colors and assign industries/cargos to them :)
16:38:24 <TrueBrain> I have considered pre-calculating "most distant" colours, depending on how many industries/cargoes you have
16:38:29 <TrueBrain> and allow you to pick a set you like
16:38:46 <frosch123> there is certainly some karma in the minimap. iirc andy was a big fan of adding more color options to the terrain :p
16:39:45 <TrueBrain> is one of those things I really like to pick colours
16:41:26 <TrueBrain> this still allows people to make it their own, while not making them do all the colours themselves nor saying: this is the colour you have to deal with
16:42:06 <andythenorth> I auto-assign certain colours I believe
16:42:21 <andythenorth> I think I manually pick the industry colours
16:42:57 <TrueBrain> but okay .. for now, I will just preset the colours, as I kinda want to work towards a v1 that is functional :D
16:43:42 <TrueBrain> I want to be able to make a FIRS-light .. read: FIRS but only with the settings I currently support :D :D :D
16:43:50 * andythenorth looking how FIRS does cargo colour
16:43:52 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: he just linked that, yes :P
16:44:23 <andythenorth> I kept a copy, I was worried about frosch getting hit by a bus
16:45:09 <frosch123> i did not publish the script that generated the files, it's copy&paste from sources of unknown license :)
16:45:35 <andythenorth> that's tuned for cargo
16:45:38 <frosch123> TrueBrain: will copilot suggests the color selection?
16:45:52 <andythenorth> that would be awesome if copilot did
16:45:54 <TrueBrain> dunno .. I am still scared with the things it does suggest :P
16:45:59 <TrueBrain> it really doesn't know NewGRF specs btw
16:46:02 <TrueBrain> that is a bit sad :P
16:46:06 <andythenorth> suggested colours that are accessible :P
16:46:21 <TrueBrain> I am thinking about making a bit of a bootstrap in Rust for pseudo sprites, so they are not all binary
16:46:27 <TrueBrain> maybe it understands it a bit more from there :D
16:47:15 <andythenorth> definitely filed under 'nobody GAF'
16:47:19 <TrueBrain> (just found a random link, and had to share)
16:47:53 <andythenorth> TrueBrain have you discovered that cargos have a sprite yet?
16:48:04 <TrueBrain> the default is nice :)
16:49:01 <TrueBrain> funny how they call it JGR servers .. isn't it JGRPP servers? :P
16:51:06 <frosch123> i like how the tiers are so political :) "fund servers only" vs "also fund staff"
16:53:36 <frosch123> probably a lot better than those other paid servers :)
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16:58:01 <TrueBrain> BTW, any idea why all non-primary industries close after 3 months?
16:58:04 <TrueBrain> All of them .. at once
16:58:38 <frosch123> usually it's 5 years
16:58:54 <frosch123> did you really set them as secondary?
16:59:10 <TrueBrain> I set 0B correctly I think
16:59:16 <TrueBrain> Tertiaries also closed btw
16:59:26 <frosch123> tertiary never close :)
16:59:38 <TrueBrain> So I am doing something wrong ... :D
17:00:09 <frosch123> i cannot fund a checmical plant, so it is not secondary
17:01:13 <TrueBrain> I need to refactor this code to make it more readable and possible contain less bugs :D
17:01:30 <frosch123> 0, 2, 3 are invalid
17:03:19 <TrueBrain> But 0 and 2 are valid not?
17:03:39 <TrueBrain> And indeed, so that explains part of this problem :D
17:04:12 <frosch123> how does write_pseudo_sprite decide whether industry_type is written as byte, word, ...?
17:04:28 <TrueBrain> in this case the type is an u8
17:06:42 <TrueBrain> ah, I can find Power Station and Chemical Plant now
17:06:46 <TrueBrain> that looks promising at least
17:06:58 <TrueBrain> time to FF a bit :)
17:07:21 <TrueBrain> yeah, now they don't close after 3 months :)
17:09:23 <TrueBrain> fixing bugs, like a bozzzzzzz
17:09:49 <frosch123> 3 months is weird though, i would have expected 1 month
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18:54:07 <TrueBrain> so, I found out ... that React / TypeScript has worse docs than NewGRF :P
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19:23:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #9733: Codechange: do not use all upper case enumerators in a scoped enum https://git.io/JMbU2
19:34:09 <LordAro> TrueBrain: impossible
19:34:57 <LordAro> zig's documentation is pretty shit, tbf
19:35:16 <LordAro> either missing (literally 404s sometimes) or "go look at the source code"
19:39:38 <TrueBrain> for React / TypeScript, there is this exchange between: no, this is TypeScript specific
19:39:42 <TrueBrain> or: no, this is React specific
19:39:47 <TrueBrain> so it is in either documentation
19:39:53 <TrueBrain> but ... this is a complete maze
19:40:12 <TrueBrain> which .... really hurts my head :P
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20:41:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #9733: Codechange: do not use all upper case enumerators in a scoped enum https://git.io/JMF49
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21:19:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] rubidium42 commented on pull request #15: Change: update coding style for scoped enumerators (OpenTTD#9733) https://git.io/JMbcf
21:19:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/wiki-data] rubidium42 closed pull request #15: Change: update coding style for scoped enumerators (OpenTTD#9733) https://git.io/JMF0Z
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22:12:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #9732: Feature: Added hotkeys to tooltips and dropdown menu's https://git.io/JMb8x
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22:33:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #9727: Feature #9059: Add buttons to toggle music in the Game Options menu. https://git.io/JMbRI
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23:01:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg opened issue #9734: [Error]: The setting name "Screen resolution" is incorrect and misleading https://git.io/JMbE0
23:04:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #9734: [Error]: The setting name "Screen resolution" is incorrect and misleading https://git.io/JMbE0
23:21:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9734: [Error]: The setting name "Screen resolution" is incorrect and misleading https://git.io/JMbE0
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23:32:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #9734: [Error]: The setting name "Screen resolution" is incorrect and misleading https://git.io/JMbE0
23:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> every now and then there's an issue where i go like "how pedantic can you be?"
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23:47:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #9734: [Error]: The setting name "Screen resolution" is incorrect and misleading https://git.io/JMbE0
continue to next day ⏵