IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-11-13
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01:37:57 <Timberwolf> I ended up getting inspired to record an up-to-date "getting started" tutorial with the new menus and controls. Comments from the accompanying "behind the scenes" blog may be relevant: https://i.imgur.com/ACGHSDW.png
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02:01:25 <dP> I rofled so hard trying to imagine tg crew supporting trans rights.
02:01:26 <dP> Curious to see the sheer amount of butthurt they'll get if they ever notice that artpiece.
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05:11:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9002: Change cargo age to have more effect on cargo payment. https://git.io/JXA61
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10:39:11 <TrueBrain> found a bug in GitHub Codespaces
10:39:41 <TrueBrain> they forward cookies really weird if the URL is escaped
10:39:49 <TrueBrain> no clue what the relation between those two things are, but it is happening!
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12:25:26 <andythenorth> do we have other hotkeys for click modifier?
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12:29:07 <dP> or wdym? alt is still unused
12:38:45 <nielsm> shift is basically reserved for "cancel action/show cost"
12:40:34 <dP> yeah, huge waste of a modifier key imo
12:59:22 <LordAro> alt is difficult to use portably
13:15:41 <TrueBrain> www.openttdshop.org, where you can order your alt-key? :D
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13:27:45 * andythenorth wants a modifier to click on things in depot
13:27:58 <andythenorth> shift does some weird 'cost of moving this vehicle' thing
13:28:52 * andythenorth wants to be able to cycle through alternative sprites with a modifier
13:28:52 <peter1138> Shift is always show cost.
13:29:07 <andythenorth> we did a good consistency
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14:58:27 <TrueBrain> we found "the one" :P
15:00:31 <TrueBrain> Steam review: "this is just a really bad version of sim city, at the moment very lame ass game, take it out of the early 90's and bring it up to date and you might have something here. "
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15:05:23 <frosch123> not sure they know simcity
15:06:53 <andythenorth> do we ever have right-click? :P
15:07:10 <frosch123> even ctrl-rightclick
15:07:54 <frosch123> well, and also mapscroll, but i guess you knew that
15:09:24 <andythenorth> oh we do have ctrl-rightclick
15:09:46 * andythenorth wanted a hotkey to cycle sprite variants :P
15:10:19 <frosch123> are you afraid rau catches up on "most often rejected feature"?
15:10:51 <andythenorth> I counted them this morning, I think it's about 2700 rejected
15:10:53 <andythenorth> and about 100 done
15:11:14 <andythenorth> 'counted' => I made up an arbitrary number
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15:11:18 <frosch123> i guess one could argue that the depot-(ctrl-)right-click could become depot-(ctrl-)-shift-left-click
15:11:27 <andythenorth> can we do click-combos?
15:11:39 <andythenorth> how about handling mouse up and mouse down differently?
15:11:44 <frosch123> port ottd to fight-stick?
15:11:54 <andythenorth> l1 and r1 on a gamepad
15:11:59 <dP> make it ctrl-double click, I bet this one is still unused :p
15:12:07 <andythenorth> l1 cycles sprites left, r1 cycles right
15:12:25 <andythenorth> yeah double click seems to be spare
15:12:53 <andythenorth> how about press and hold to get an animated carousel of sprites to select from?
15:13:18 <frosch123> we can use middle button for it :) (assuming andy has none)
15:13:50 <andythenorth> I have no button at all
15:14:19 <andythenorth> we can opengl transform the sprites onto 3D surfaces?
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16:32:17 <peter1138> "This is a great game, but I'm giving it a negative review because you shouldn't be getting it off of Steam."
16:32:58 <dwfreed> yeah, sorry I want integrated updates and centralized launching of all my games
16:36:00 <TrueBrain> Gatekeeping .. you got to love it!
16:40:51 * andythenorth considers gatekeeping gatekeeping
16:41:08 <andythenorth> nice gatekeeper gatekeeping you got there TrueBrain :)
16:41:57 <dP> and that's the best case, some go with english interface and just see ??? ?? ???????? ?, ??? ????? ???.
16:44:40 <andythenorth> 'nice gatekeeping you got there, be a shame if anything happened to it'
16:47:02 <peter1138> No glyph for char 0x43D
16:47:41 <peter1138> Cyrillic Small Letter En
16:48:20 <peter1138> Language support unit tests ;)
16:49:54 <frosch123> i guess we should not show that window, when no font is configured
16:50:12 <frosch123> it' obvious that the sprite font does not support all the fancy characters
16:50:42 <dP> because it's 2021 and people expect i18n in games :p
16:59:07 <peter1138> Did we add some cyrillic or are they in the original baseset...
17:02:22 <frosch123> i assumed the window is only shown, if the user explicitly set a font, or if no suitable font is found at all
17:04:50 <dP> it's show as soon as you change the interface language and then on every start of the game
17:04:59 <dP> until you set the font in the config
17:05:20 <frosch123> yes, i learned that 15 minutes ago :p
17:12:42 <dP> imo, window is not a problem, bitmap font is
17:12:58 <dP> default font should be able to show at least all the characters used in language files
17:13:14 <peter1138> The window is the problem, as the game has switched to system font by that point anyway.
17:13:22 <frosch123> dP: good luck drawing thousands of cjk chars :)
17:13:37 <dP> frosch123, just include dejavu :p
17:14:43 <dP> peter1138, at that point yes, but what if someone uses english interface? he'll have no unicode support even if he can read other languages
17:15:03 <dP> and no indication whatsoever that game even has a unicode support
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17:32:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #9692: Fix: don't complain when the sprite font is missing glyphs. https://git.io/JXhBU
17:33:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #9692: Fix: don't complain when the sprite font is missing glyphs. https://git.io/JXhBU
18:04:36 <TrueBrain> Would like to approve, but CI says no
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18:07:24 <nielsm> the solution to that is definitely to configure the emscripten version with freetype support and include a universal font in the package
18:08:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #9692: Fix: don't complain when the sprite font is missing glyphs. https://git.io/JXhBU
18:08:46 <frosch123> is there even a free font that supports cjk, arabic and indic scripts?
18:09:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9692: Fix: don't complain when the sprite font is missing glyphs. https://git.io/JXhg5
18:10:38 <frosch123> if you want to support all languages in bananas list and multiplayer chat, you would have to support mixing fonts within strings
18:10:49 <frosch123> to load single characters from special fonts
18:10:56 <frosch123> i don't think that's an easy change :p
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18:27:11 <dP> hm, I thought dejavu have all that but maybe not...
18:27:20 <dP> how do other programs work then, do they mix fonts?
18:27:32 <dP> like, I can cat all language files in the console no problem
18:35:32 <frosch123> no idea, wiki says dejavu covers 1% of thai, 64% of arabic, 62% of hebrew
18:35:43 <Rubidium> either my Dejavu Mono is too old, or it does not contain the characters for Chinese, Japanese or Korean
18:48:16 <andythenorth> lol trying to use 64 threads for grf compile exceeds the open file limit
18:48:52 <TrueBrain> so simple solution: increase it!
18:49:09 <andythenorth> yeah it's a single line shell command
18:49:30 <andythenorth> 64 would probably be slower than 16 anyway due to overhead on starting 64 pythons
18:49:37 <andythenorth> 16 seems to be optimum
18:57:36 <nielsm> dP that's what win32 does at least, picks replacement fonts for runs of text that the selected font doesn't support
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19:42:22 <peter1138> LordAro, damn, I think it's my crank that's failed :(
19:45:04 <andythenorth> lol why does 'full animation' have no visible effect on frame rate on m1
19:45:24 <andythenorth> but dumps it by 25%-60% on i9 + AMD GPU
19:48:38 <peter1138> Probably AMD OpenGL drivers suck :p
19:48:44 <peter1138> (Or it's not using OpenGL)
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19:50:38 * andythenorth tries turning hardware acceleration on / off
19:51:51 <andythenorth> no real difference
19:51:58 <andythenorth> same for refresh rate up to 120hz
19:52:05 <andythenorth> where's the fun in that?
19:56:21 <andythenorth> is there any benefit to running ottd at 120hz?
19:56:26 * andythenorth can't see much difference
19:57:44 <andythenorth> oh less judder on cursor scroll?
19:58:18 <andythenorth> it's really quite nuts how much openttd performance was improved recently
20:00:23 <andythenorth> my mac used to struggle to get 30fps on a busy
20:01:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #9692: Fix: don't complain when the sprite font is missing glyphs. https://git.io/JXhBU
20:05:39 <frosch123> ottd now runs at truespeed
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20:06:38 <frosch123> blitting at cc squared-lightspeed (?)
20:06:56 <LordAro> peter1138: failed how?
20:07:06 <frosch123> it's easier to make puns with "true" than with "cc" :p
20:10:16 <peter1138> Something wrong with my keyboard apparently.
20:10:59 <andythenorth> hmm shall we make some openttd?
20:11:06 * andythenorth is avoiding chores :P
20:11:35 * andythenorth considered trying an nml station :P
20:12:15 <peter1138> Should've already started
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20:42:04 <supermop_Home> here's an andy question:
20:42:41 <supermop_Home> for the purposes of a captcha , is a hovercraft a boat?
20:57:04 <andythenorth> ok time for nml stations :)
20:57:12 * andythenorth apologies in advance to glx
20:57:29 <andythenorth> oh not here anyway :P
21:07:55 <glx> I think you can't break it andythenorth, I tested many things :)
21:08:06 <andythenorth> is this a challenge?
21:10:29 * andythenorth cargo cults a lot of FIRS
21:10:36 <andythenorth> copy-paste coding is the best coding?
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21:18:02 <andythenorth> "chips-horse.nml"
21:21:40 <andythenorth> chips is 43485054
21:21:59 <andythenorth> how do I use that? :P
21:31:13 <nielsm> hmm was the "savegame upgrade" label scrapped?
21:32:36 <nielsm> the PR template text should be updated too then
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21:36:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9693: Fix travel times stored in the linkgraph https://git.io/JXjkW
21:36:58 <andythenorth> I don't understand grfids at all
21:37:25 <andythenorth> how do I just put "CHPT" into nml as the grfid?
21:38:16 <frosch123> grf { grfid: "CHPT"; }
21:38:23 <frosch123> i don't get the question
21:39:44 <frosch123> why was the "savegame upgrade" label scrapped?
21:40:09 <frosch123> TrueBrain: why was the "savegame upgrade" label scrapped?
21:40:46 <TrueBrain> can I defer it to someone else too? :P
21:40:53 <TrueBrain> from what I remember it had no longer any real value?
21:41:10 <glx> welln you scrappped it IIRC
21:41:11 <frosch123> it mostly means "this PR can probably not be backported"
21:42:09 <frosch123> but ok, i guess the template could also say "if this PR bumps the savegame version, check whether this is really necessary" or something
21:42:26 <glx> but it's easy to readd the label
21:43:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: in general, savegame bumps are features, which we do not backport anyway
21:43:26 <glx> we had too many labels, hence the cleanup
21:43:31 <TrueBrain> but yeah, makes more sense to suggest in PRs not to bump the version as much as possible :)
21:43:31 <frosch123> also, why are there so many vehicle time counters...
21:43:52 <frosch123> #9693 makes me instantly suspicious there must be another way withuot adding yet another counter
21:44:12 <andythenorth> if it's just a plain literal, I wonder why all my other grfs have all this nonsense `grfid = r"CA\12\1F"`
21:44:27 <andythenorth> lost in time eh :)
21:44:45 <nielsm> the GRFID is a 4 byte (32 bit) value
21:45:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it would help to reduce the amount of counters for sure ;) Long term goals :D
21:45:10 <frosch123> 'C' 'A' '\12' '\1F'
21:45:12 <nielsm> with common practice to make some or all the bytes readable as ASCII
21:45:16 <andythenorth> so it's just ascii escapes?
21:45:32 <andythenorth> I did google for a converter but eh, got pictures of electrical switchboxes for some reason
21:45:46 <glx> GRFID is in same family as cargo labels
21:46:36 <andythenorth> I think I carry too much baggage from nfo, and nfo with escapes :P
21:46:50 <nielsm> cargo labels (and railtype, roadtype, tramtype labels) don't really "need" to be readable AFAIK, at least not for the GRF to be valid
21:47:13 <glx> except GRFID usually ends with a number (can be increased on incompatible change)
21:47:13 <nielsm> but I think some syntaxes in NML require them to be printable and identifier-like
21:47:20 <andythenorth> every time I do this I intend to fix the nml wiki about it
21:47:33 <andythenorth> but I only do this once every 2-3 years
21:50:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9693: Fix travel times stored in the linkgraph https://git.io/JXjtI
21:51:18 <frosch123> possibly derailing, but the vehicle mess is so annoying :p
21:52:21 <glx> isn't it possible to just store current tick on "change" and remove all counters ?
21:53:10 <TrueBrain> revamp how vehicles work completely? :D
21:53:22 <TrueBrain> delta-based? Subpixel movement? :D :D
21:54:37 <andythenorth> collapse the waveform
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22:29:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe commented on pull request #9693: Fix travel times stored in the linkgraph https://git.io/JXjGN
22:35:18 <TrueBrain> you get a counter, and you get a counter, and you get ... :D
22:39:59 <glx> possible issue is vehicle tick wrap
22:41:29 <glx> but should be easy to detect
22:43:50 <frosch123> are you suggesting a tick counter per vehicle, or a global one?
22:44:04 <frosch123> i.e. _date would be affected by year-cheat and similar
22:44:10 <glx> there's already a tick counter per vehicle
22:44:14 <frosch123> while _steady_tick or something would not
22:44:52 <frosch123> yeah, and for each one you have to look at the code, when it is incremented, and when not :p
22:45:10 <frosch123> driving/loading/stopped/... :p
22:46:56 <andythenorth> got an nml station in the game :D
22:46:59 <andythenorth> it has flashing cows
22:47:15 <glx> yes that's the example station :)
22:49:55 <andythenorth> I copy-pasted :)
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22:50:24 <andythenorth> tomorrow I try making my own :)
22:50:34 <andythenorth> I don't know how CHIPS actually works, it's very magical
22:50:35 <glx> regression station uses another option
22:50:52 <andythenorth> my brain is not as big as yexo's :)
22:52:06 <glx> example is very basic, with only one spriteset (well many, but only one active, chosen by basic action2)
22:53:04 <glx> regression shows it's possible to use more than one spriteset in the same station tile
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22:56:54 <glx> and with layout parameters, a single layout can be used for different stations, and if they also use temp params it's possible to do some things dynamically too
22:57:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe commented on pull request #9693: Fix travel times stored in the linkgraph https://git.io/JXjWu
22:58:32 <glx> I'm quite sure all the layouts in NFO for magic station can be reduced to 2 layouts, using some tricks
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23:09:46 <andythenorth> I will explore tomorrow thanks :)
23:10:19 <andythenorth> I never looked at the magic, but it's probably random or tile-position based
23:10:36 <andythenorth> there are automatic choices of buildings or cargos etc
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23:23:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe commented on pull request #9693: Fix travel times stored in the linkgraph https://git.io/JXjBl
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