IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-09-28
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11:27:20 <Samu> damn, my ai triggered too long to save again
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12:19:10 <FLHerne> Is it intended that trying to add an order via a station of the wrong kind is silently ignored?
12:20:44 <FLHerne> If I have a bus and click on a lorry bay, there's a "Message: Can't insert new order ... vehicle can't go to that station"
12:21:02 <FLHerne> but if I click on a rail station or airport it just does nothing
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13:08:05 <glx> FLHerne: but it bus and lorry bay are in the same station it should be accepted
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13:27:18 <orudge> Hah, some interesting spam, we can advertise OpenTTD at my local supermarket
13:55:28 <FLHerne> glx: yes, that's fine
13:56:10 <FLHerne> What I'm questioning is that there's no message for incompatible stations that are of a totally different vehicle type
13:56:56 <glx> probably checks, but return default error, so no message
13:57:14 <FLHerne> If I send, say, a bus to an airport, should there not also be a "vehicle can't go to that station" message?
13:57:25 <FLHerne> I should probably file an issue
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15:00:16 <LordAro> FLHerne: i'd say that's an issue, yeah
15:00:28 <LordAro> probably trigially fixablw
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16:37:47 <TrueBrain> That opens up possibilities
16:38:21 <LordAro> what sort of possibilities?
16:40:18 <TrueBrain> CDN cost down with .. a lot
16:42:08 <TrueBrain> Our whole CDN on R2 would cost 2 euro a month
16:42:22 <TrueBrain> Vs the current ... 50?
16:42:47 <glx> oh more room for TURN users :)
16:43:13 <TrueBrain> Wiki cache rate is 30%
16:43:54 <TrueBrain> Will need to see how to increase that .. First means I need to check what isn't being cached :D
16:51:00 <TrueBrain> No clue, didn't add them :p
16:52:02 <glx> don't think they are documented, but they were mentionned in PRs when tests were done on staging
16:52:49 <TrueBrain> They for sure are meant for dev only ofc ;)
16:54:14 <glx> and they are connection strings, so can contain the port too (not very explicit in the default values)
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17:02:43 <andythenorth> in "everyday is a school day" epsiode #15823
17:02:50 <andythenorth> Google Chat is actually ok
17:02:58 <andythenorth> so either hell froze over, or I'm hallucinating
17:03:10 <andythenorth> clearly on topic for this channel
17:12:41 <TrueBrain> right, some better stats about our wiki .. 142k page requests a day .. 3GB of data
17:14:15 <TrueBrain> 50% of that are png files :D
17:14:32 <TrueBrain> bandwidth, I don't know :)
17:17:04 <andythenorth> is that now CF-ed?
17:18:41 <TrueBrain> too bad we don't have a Pro account (yet?) so I cannot see real webtraffic stats :P
17:20:35 <andythenorth> you going to buy one?
17:22:01 <TrueBrain> if this works out, we should
17:23:15 * andythenorth on a shopping expedition
17:23:36 <andythenorth> front page is a bit animated wizzy
17:23:44 <andythenorth> other pages are better
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17:34:15 <TrueBrain> right, lets start with increasing cache-time of images .. currently that is set to 5 minutes
17:34:19 <TrueBrain> as you might change them
17:34:25 <TrueBrain> but .. in reality that RARELY happens
17:34:29 <TrueBrain> so .. yeah, screw that :P
17:36:21 <nielsm> if an image really needs to change, upload the new one with a new name and update the pages, duh
17:36:34 <nielsm> (updating the pages being the hard part)
17:38:29 <nielsm> but does CF ever call the origin server back before cache expiry with conditional fetch headers (so you can just send it a "not modified" response back)?
17:39:16 <TrueBrain> that is a difficult question to answer, as it is yes and no :)
17:39:27 <TrueBrain> we send a public, max-age=N header on uploads
17:39:34 <TrueBrain> we also send a last-modified
17:39:59 <TrueBrain> with the assumption most people browse around for like 5 minutes on the wiki
17:40:09 <TrueBrain> during tha ttime, the browser keeps the images in the cache
17:40:18 <TrueBrain> now with CF in front of it, it means CF caches that image for 5 minutes
17:40:29 <andythenorth> does it cache admin edits?
17:40:34 <TrueBrain> after that, it does a is-modified-since check
17:40:37 <TrueBrain> and does not refetch the image if the image was not changed
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17:40:47 <andythenorth> cos otherwise we could be caching images on something much longer, like 24 hours
17:40:53 <TrueBrain> the downside is, that if you upload a new image, a hard reload doesn't change anything
17:40:55 <TrueBrain> where it did before
17:41:11 <TrueBrain> but so: no, CF does not check before max-age, but does a not-modified check after
17:41:25 <TrueBrain> "cache admin edits", wtf does that even mean?
17:42:44 <andythenorth> I mean if I am authed, and I upload a new image
17:42:52 <andythenorth> do I get a short TTL, or do I have to wait?
17:43:02 <TrueBrain> a new image is there instant
17:43:06 <TrueBrain> overwriting images is the thing
17:43:13 <andythenorth> yeah sorry, wrong words
17:44:01 <TrueBrain> the thing where I can see that CF is doing a good job, is with the 200 vs 301 rate
17:44:21 <TrueBrain> it used to be like: 70% 200, rest 304 (not 301, 304, oops)
17:44:27 <TrueBrain> now it is more like 50/50
17:44:53 <TrueBrain> and the HTML pages are never cached, so that sounds about right
17:45:39 <TrueBrain> the thing is .. we RARELY change images on our wiki
17:46:03 <TrueBrain> so 5 minute cache is just .. wasteful :P
17:46:07 <TrueBrain> 30 or 60 minutes would be better
17:46:18 <TrueBrain> but as you cannot force-reload the image, if someone would be to overwrite an existing
17:46:20 <TrueBrain> it would be confusing :P
17:46:21 <nielsm> if an image really does need to change then just upload it with a new name
17:46:31 <TrueBrain> the wiki allows overwriting with the same name atm
17:46:46 <TrueBrain> but honestly .. I have no issues dealing with 1 confused person in 20 years :P
17:47:05 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, it is a tradeoff :)
17:47:14 <nielsm> does CF have a way to force-flush its cache for the site?
17:47:25 <TrueBrain> for EVERYTHING, yes
17:47:42 <TrueBrain> well, no, I can also give 1 specific URL
17:47:46 <nielsm> yeah just do that if there is a "catastrphic situation" where an image seriously needs to be changed right now
17:48:30 <TrueBrain> right, next victim to put in front of CF .. the main webpage .. :D
17:48:44 <TrueBrain> I have no clue how cache is configured there
17:49:13 <TrueBrain> only a last-modified header
17:51:02 <glx> website rarely changes, and changes happen on triggers so there should be a way to tell when to refresh cache
17:51:19 <TrueBrain> website changes daily :)
17:51:33 <TrueBrain> and "refresh cache" is either forget everything, or a very specific URL
17:51:37 <TrueBrain> so also not really practicle
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17:52:09 <TrueBrain> I think I will just make it cache for an hour or something
17:52:18 <TrueBrain> would mean that if we post news, it can take up to an hour before everyone sees it
17:52:22 <TrueBrain> not sure that is a problem :P
17:52:38 <glx> that way we have time to catch typos ;)
17:53:05 <TrueBrain> and direct URLs to posts do work instantly
17:53:13 <TrueBrain> it is only the main page that doesn't show it yet
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17:58:57 <TrueBrain> I am fine with that
17:58:57 <TrueBrain> okay, CF did 2 hours by default
17:59:01 <TrueBrain> we will see if/how we like it :)
17:59:09 <TrueBrain> also means things like new nightlies being published "slower"
18:02:02 <TrueBrain> if this works out, I can move more stuff to CF that doesn't really consume resources, but are just easier to do on CF .. like redirects etc
18:06:46 <TrueBrain> CF also filters webtraffic for baddies
18:06:50 <TrueBrain> I put it on one of the lowest mode
18:07:05 <TrueBrain> but a whole block of IPs gets a captcha
18:07:06 <TrueBrain> all from the same AS
18:07:12 <TrueBrain> I think it is working :)
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18:09:50 <TrueBrain> if we would use query-strings for versioning of our static assets, we could set it to a year too :P
18:10:18 * andythenorth does that in places
18:10:39 <TrueBrain> we could do that, but we currently are not doing it
18:14:24 <TrueBrain> RC1 costs us 1.5 dollar per day :P
18:25:17 <TrueBrain> oof, we had 3 million DNS requests last month
18:25:24 <TrueBrain> AWS charged 1 dollar 25 for that
18:25:36 <TrueBrain> Cloudflare does that for free now :P
18:47:30 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:49:24 <TrueBrain> 279? Nice score nielsm :)
18:49:56 <TrueBrain> 29 languages fully done now, 35 to go.
18:51:08 <andythenorth> lol dependabot is still nagging me
18:51:15 <TrueBrain> we definitely lost some translators btw :P
18:51:24 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: nag it back
18:51:30 <TrueBrain> if you own the repo, you can mute it btw
18:51:46 <andythenorth> who is our vulnerability manager?
18:51:57 <TrueBrain> and for aiohttp, the latest is a post-release, and it refuses to see that as newer than the older release
18:52:11 <andythenorth> if i have to look in the mirror for the vulnerability manager
18:52:13 <TrueBrain> if it is on any OpenTTD-repo, let me know, and I will mute it for you :P
18:52:18 <andythenorth> we are in big trouble :P
18:52:23 <andythenorth> it is openttd website
18:52:38 <andythenorth> but it's the first time I've seen dependabot working on my repos, so it's interesting
18:52:49 <TrueBrain> in your fork? Update your main
18:52:53 <TrueBrain> didn't someone already tell you that? :P
18:53:42 <TrueBrain> ah, no, it is the post issue
18:53:45 <TrueBrain> so yeah, mute it :P
18:55:04 <andythenorth> hmm more options I can click
18:55:10 <andythenorth> 'have no bandwidth to fix this'
18:55:16 <andythenorth> can I apply that to my entire life?
18:55:48 <andythenorth> life: if product breaks, stop using
18:57:49 <nielsm> TrueBrain: actually more than 279, since I discovered way more old strings that were inconsistent or bad grammar or otherwise needed fixing, but eints apparently doesn't count existing "correct" strings that were edited or something
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19:36:20 <TrueBrain> lol @ Steam .. so we have been operating the master-server for 14 years .. why is he after us "but what if you shut down the MP servers?!" :D
19:37:17 <glx> and openttd multiplayer works fine without master server or game coordinator
19:37:53 <TrueBrain> yeah, I think nielsm ?, already replied that :)
19:38:04 <TrueBrain> but just the ... we have been doing this for 14 years already
19:38:16 <TrueBrain> don't bitch about "but what if you shut down the master server?!" :P
19:39:55 <TrueBrain> okay .. amount of multiplayer games boomed a bit since RC1 / news post :P
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19:40:09 <nielsm> but that's why I asked about the network/core/config.cpp file with the env vars earlier, because if those were config file settings it would be a bit more convenient to reconfigure a client to permanently use a different GC
19:40:46 <TrueBrain> nielsm: deliberately it is not that way. As that is only useful if multiple clients do that, to the same GC, and at that point it is a lot easier to create a new binary :)
19:40:48 <nielsm> even if only as an argument for "yes you can set up your own game coordinator if for some reason the official one shutters"
19:41:07 <TrueBrain> owh, same GC and STUN server, mind you :D
19:43:27 <TrueBrain> okay, a bit cryptic message from a user, but there is still a bug if you change from Public to Invite-only game, you get an error about the server being registered twice
19:43:32 <TrueBrain> I was sure I fixed that ..
19:43:51 <glx> indeed it should be fixed
19:45:06 <TrueBrain> yeah .... "fixed on staging" :P
19:47:00 <TrueBrain> that was just silly
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19:49:17 <TrueBrain> yeah, that fixes the issue :)
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20:37:25 <TrueBrain> lol .. you cannot assign someone on Cloudflare the permission to do billing, except for the original creator of the account
20:40:23 <andythenorth> no billing IAM :PO
20:41:46 <LordAro> TrueBrain: assign it to andy
20:42:35 <TrueBrain> "You cannot leave this account as you are the owner (Code: 1004) "
20:44:30 <orudge> "Take my money!"... "no" :|
20:45:00 <TrueBrain> and I really do not know what to do about it
20:46:32 <TrueBrain> cannot transfer it to another account either
20:49:21 <andythenorth> oof where does the time go
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21:01:52 <TrueBrain> figured out what we have to do .. and it aint pretty
21:03:31 <TrueBrain> swapping of accounts
21:03:40 <TrueBrain> because that is how you want to deal with this shit :D
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21:07:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on discussion #9504: [Suggestion] Minimized version of the Online Players window https://git.io/JEI40
21:09:16 <andythenorth> michi_cc was the performance problem with YACD tracking the cargo packets, or generating destinations, or [other]?
21:10:37 <michi_cc> The main problem of YACD were/are finding out which packets _can't_ be routed on initial cargo generation.
21:11:17 <michi_cc> Because definitely saying 'there's no way' means looking at almost the full search space.
21:11:47 <andythenorth> very specific problem :)
21:11:51 <michi_cc> And negative caching is always problematic, too.
21:11:57 <andythenorth> trees, forests, falling
21:13:14 * andythenorth thinks the TB proposal to switch orders to routes helps somehow
21:13:18 <andythenorth> but not sure how
21:13:31 <andythenorth> cos for cargo routing, that's just a variant on the linkgraph cdist assembles
21:16:07 <michi_cc> It's a conceptual problem (at least for the way I'd want YACD to operate) because each source and destination tile could be in the catchment area of multiple stations, but none are guaranteed to be on the same network. Which means that you have to try pathfinding for all permutations, and towns generate a lot of small packets.
21:18:33 <michi_cc> And getting the result 'no route' is often times a lot more expensive than if a route can be found. Even if you limit e.g. transfers to some low number (that still has to be at least 4 or so, otherwise everybody will complain), that is still enough for an average network to result in all routes to be in the search space.
21:23:04 <dP> transparent would be much better imo
21:23:38 <LordAro> an actual window that's transparent would be weird
21:23:51 <LordAro> (and it would be an actual window, not like the console or chat 'window')
21:24:25 <dP> just leave client list without title and crap
21:24:56 <dP> and put toggle somewhere else
21:25:54 <LordAro> i'm not sure that's workable
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22:49:15 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I thought "Perhaps, make a patreon or one of those kinda sites, and allow people who subscribe the ability to "vote" on upcoming features. Creating the feel of a "group project" makes people more willing to be a part of it. :) "
22:49:20 <FLHerne> was quite a funny comment
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