IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-08-13
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07:20:14 <andythenorth> "well the game goes on a tick cycle, So even if you prolong the hours the same ammount of resources well be used."
07:20:25 <andythenorth> then more discussion of why it should have been done already
07:20:53 <Wolf01> It's always the same :P
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07:39:44 <Wolf01> "Camera rotation is critical, why is it not available in this game??"
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08:20:25 <SpComb> that's what we have transparency options for
08:21:13 <nielsm> the reason OTTD doesn't have camera rotation is that TTD doesn't have it, because TT doesn't have it, because the original graphics wasn't designed for it
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08:24:16 <nielsm> a lot of the game graphics "could" be used rotated, but it doesn't quite work that way because of how industries and town houses and train stations and airports work
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09:03:36 <Wolf01> Skyrim VR killed my stomach again
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10:13:09 <andythenorth> could we add actual newgrf towns?
10:13:20 <andythenorth> there's a shadow structure currently to make industry parent scopes work
10:13:50 <andythenorth> now that we have town storage, it would be useful to have a town monthly cb (maybe a 256 tick cb also)
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10:19:16 <andythenorth> I am writing some monthly values which are summed from multiple industries
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10:19:43 <andythenorth> it's quite complex to know when the last industry has written so that the storage can be zeroed for next month
10:19:52 <andythenorth> town cb would solve that
10:20:56 <andythenorth> we have TownsMonthlyLoop() already
10:21:07 <andythenorth> which is called directly before IndustryMonthlyLoop()
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11:45:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9469: Feature: servers can now set a Message Of The Day https://git.io/JR5Ot
12:03:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9469: Feature: servers can now set a Message Of The Day https://git.io/JR5ZN
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13:43:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9469: Feature: servers can now set a Message Of The Day https://git.io/JR5yM
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15:50:35 <andythenorth> ok it's TrueBrain :)
16:22:36 * andythenorth saying Happy Friday
16:22:46 <andythenorth> I think it's Friday anyway
16:23:19 <FLHerne> Friday is cancelled, we'll be moving directly to Saturday
16:31:14 <andythenorth> I'm on holiday anywyay
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16:49:38 <Samu_> im investigating why my ai is having a hard time getting 5000 ships
17:16:55 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are weird :p
17:17:19 <andythenorth> I constantly surprise myself
17:18:01 <TrueBrain> What a nice way to live your life :D
17:20:46 <andythenorth> I forgot about signed dwords :P
17:21:47 <andythenorth> I am sat here wondering how counting in increments of -1 gets to 32767 so quickly :P
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17:23:24 <andythenorth> the debug converts hex to dec int, but doesn't understand -ve :D
17:24:07 * andythenorth might be about to get educated about signing
17:29:03 <TrueBrain> and you found out underflows, nice!
17:35:04 <andythenorth> there's probably something I should do to handle it :D
17:41:15 <TrueBrain> allowing a GS to change a MOTD? That is just weird .. no. That is just: no. :)
17:41:20 <TrueBrain> something about a hammer and nails ...
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17:42:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9469: Feature: servers can now set a Message Of The Day https://git.io/JRdM0
17:42:54 <TrueBrain> nielsm: it is funny that you had the exact idea I tried :D
17:43:50 <TrueBrain> the multi-line editor, all I saw was a really really really deep rabbit hole :P
17:45:44 <TrueBrain> and I really do not understand how {} stuff works for GS
17:45:53 <TrueBrain> there is some black fuckery going on there ...
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17:47:35 <glx> GS strings are not raw strings
17:47:40 <nielsm> GS strings run through the language compiler
17:48:01 <TrueBrain> so we cannot do that runtime?
17:48:32 <TrueBrain> GSes don't compile anything before being shipped, do they?
17:48:36 <TrueBrain> (I really do not know , to be clear :D )
17:49:03 <nielsm> I think the "GUI is a necessity" argument isn't that solid, because the servers that use MOTD are generally dedicated servers anyway
17:49:25 <TrueBrain> that was not my idea of this screen :) I also wanted it to be used by all users
17:49:30 <nielsm> the owners would be managing it via commandline, rcon, config files regardless
17:50:07 <TrueBrain> at least, let me put it differently, we came to this suggestion from "how do users know they are spectator and how do they know how to play" :)
17:50:19 <TrueBrain> not sure we have other nice ways of doing that?
17:50:45 <TrueBrain> as yeah, if you only see the MOTD as something for dedicated servers, that greatly changes what is possible :)
17:51:23 <nielsm> MOTD and UI that guides the player to create/join a company are entirely different concerns imo
17:51:41 <TrueBrain> yeah, not disagreeing there
17:51:48 <nielsm> yes they are both things that pop up at multiplayer game join, but one is about local server policies and the other is about core game mechanics
17:52:14 <nielsm> then you could also argue the server should instruct the player how to build a train station in the MOTD
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17:52:31 <TrueBrain> I think it mainly came up as by removing the lobby, old players might be confused
17:52:36 <TrueBrain> so we need to hint them in the right direction
17:52:53 <nielsm> how does the status bar show in spectator mode right now?
17:53:12 <nielsm> could maybe show "Spectating" in the money field and clicking that pop up the join company window?
17:53:14 <TrueBrain> don't ask these difficult questions :P Lets find out :)
17:53:26 <TrueBrain> we don't have a "join company" window
17:53:52 <glx> status bar shows a big "* * * SPECTATOR * * *" IIRC
17:53:53 <nielsm> because popping that up on server join would also be a very good option
17:54:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, now the "Online Players" window shows up
17:54:27 <TrueBrain> glx: nope, it is empty
17:54:46 <nielsm> you could even make the join company window uncloseable while spectating, only allowing the player to shade it
17:55:09 <TrueBrain> adding yet-another-GUI .. somehow I am dreading that :P
17:55:20 <nielsm> "online players" is a bad window tho
17:55:23 <TrueBrain> but I think adding *** SPECTATOR *** to the status bar is a good idea
17:55:37 <nielsm> glx just said it's already there
17:55:38 <TrueBrain> nielsm: in what sense?
17:55:48 <TrueBrain> nielsm: and I just said that is not true :P I started a game
17:55:58 <TrueBrain> <date> | empty | empty
17:56:28 <TrueBrain> picture with proof :P
17:56:46 <glx> I remember seeing a PR about that
17:56:59 <nielsm> uh... that "online players" window is the "join company" window I was talking about
17:57:12 <nielsm> (yes I've been rather not keeping up for the past year)
17:57:25 <TrueBrain> that is why I made an image ;)
17:58:24 <TrueBrain> so lets at least do SPECTATOR :)
17:58:31 <nielsm> but IMO keep the news ticker free of "spectator" text, since world news can still happen that would cover it
17:58:42 <TrueBrain> yeah, but that works both, not?
17:58:50 <nielsm> but the money field is naturally empty when you don't have a copmpany
17:58:51 <TrueBrain> as in, if there is no news it shows spectator, otherwise it shows the news?
17:58:55 <TrueBrain> owh, that is better
17:59:23 <TrueBrain> but how do we nudge the user into knowing he should join a company?
17:59:36 <nielsm> (spectating) in brackets might be the most appropriate to the general UI style
17:59:44 <TrueBrain> ack, will make that happen :)
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18:00:45 <TrueBrain> the tooltips of the disabled buttons are also not hinting to what to do next
18:01:32 <TrueBrain> and just a popup to say "To start playing, join a (new) company via the Online Player window" sounds like a bad idea too :P
18:01:58 <TrueBrain> (and this is why it was suggested to mix it with MOTD :D So at least we made that circle :P)
18:02:06 <nielsm> now we're venturing into tutorial/in-game manual territory, I know the idea was that GS would be the way to teach the player how to operate the game, but some of these things just aren't fit for the GS operating model
18:02:38 <andythenorth> goes it a new 3rd Standard!
18:02:40 <TrueBrain> opening the Online Players window in the center of the screen already helps, I guess ..
18:02:53 * andythenorth might be quite big on silly comments today
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18:05:11 <TrueBrain> we could make a window pop up the very first time you connect to a server? That might be a nice solution?
18:05:57 <nielsm> a general (short) new player tutorial feature would be appropriate IMO
18:06:08 <TrueBrain> Caption like "Hint: join a company" with a text like "You just joined your first server. You are currently a spectator. To start playing, use the "Online Players" window in the top left corner to either create a company of join a friends'"?
18:06:13 <andythenorth> (1) install zBase
18:06:18 <andythenorth> (2) go to discord for help
18:06:30 * andythenorth should have a beer
18:06:33 <TrueBrain> nielsm: fully agree, but that is a bit out of the amount of time I have available :P
18:06:41 <nielsm> first time on the main menu: guide to the general ways to get into a game, tell the player there is single and multiplayer, tell the player they can get AI opponents and add-on content (mods/DLC)
18:07:18 <nielsm> first time in singleplayer: short guide to the menubar, "build a transport route to make money", "use the map to get an overview of the world", etc
18:07:48 * andythenorth wonders if there's some way to educate nml about signed values
18:07:53 <andythenorth> or maybe it knows already
18:08:05 <TrueBrain> nielsm: it really is a good idea .. just how are we going to get there :D
18:08:12 <nielsm> first time in multiplayer: "use the online players window to start a company or join an existing one"
18:08:39 <nielsm> well GS already has the stuff available to highlight UI elements, as far as I know, it's just hooking it up to something built-in too
18:08:59 <TrueBrain> ah, highlight exists? That is nice
18:09:32 <TrueBrain> we could prototype it for multiplayer only for now, I guess, as there the immediate issue is
18:09:42 <nielsm> yes that's why there is that odd widget ID compilation step required for the squirrel code
18:09:48 <andythenorth> not sure how that's used
18:09:59 <nielsm> so GS has the widget id's available to highlight for tutorial purposes
18:10:17 <TrueBrain> guess that is why some widgets have IDs that are never really used
18:10:18 <TrueBrain> I was wondering about that :P
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18:10:38 <TrueBrain> now this window is a bit tricky, as the buttons are dynamic, and do not have an ID
18:11:00 <TrueBrain> but that should be fixable
18:11:13 <TrueBrain> the "tutorial" window .. just a normal full window, in a yellow colour or something?
18:11:21 <TrueBrain> (so caption + body + close button)
18:11:36 <nielsm> sky blue I think is the appropriate color for "help" windows
18:11:42 <TrueBrain> in theory we could even make a "show next time" checkbox :P
18:12:41 <TrueBrain> but I think that is a nice start towards basic tutorials .. maybe that triggers someone to make it for other windows too
18:13:52 <TrueBrain> tnx nielsm , really helpful :)
18:14:12 <TrueBrain> owh wait, does that mean I have to battle GUIs again? :P
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18:15:32 <nielsm> btw for the multiline text editor thing, I've been thinking a nice feature for scenario makers would be somewhere to type in text that could either be read out by GS and used for fun and profit, or could simply be filled into the storybook for some flavour without needing a GS for it
18:15:52 <TrueBrain> I think many places could use it, honestly
18:15:57 <TrueBrain> but ... I was looking at how to do it ..
18:16:09 <nielsm> it's just a stack of single lines!!!!1
18:16:09 <TrueBrain> I still don't understand how GS strings work btw .. when are they compiled?
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18:17:26 <TrueBrain> haha, if only widgets were that simple :P
18:24:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9471: Add: mention you are a spectator in the status bar (if you are, ofc) https://git.io/JRd5n
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18:26:39 <_dp_> you're basically just moving server lobby into the game, so make large and clear "new company" button there, if players can find it right now they'll find it in the new window.
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18:27:58 <TrueBrain> hmm ... can't we make compiling OpenTTD faster?
18:28:12 <_dp_> motd/welcome is not a solution anyway
18:28:40 <_dp_> I'm trying help with ui in popups for years and still get plenty of questions from players who didn't read
18:29:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9472: Add: synchronize server name to clients and display in Online Players GUI https://git.io/JRdd0
18:38:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9473: Fix: name the Online Players caption the same as in the menu https://git.io/JRdbv
18:51:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9467: Feature: make "join game" button join the game, instead of first showing a lobby window https://git.io/JRoWg
18:51:49 <TrueBrain> just retriggering, I guess? Bit weird
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19:00:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #9469: Feature: servers can now set a Message Of The Day https://git.io/JRdxQ
19:07:45 <TrueBrain> how did you find that?!
19:08:02 <glx> I checked the annotations
19:08:13 <TrueBrain> you smart! Lol .. did not think of that .. how silly :)
19:09:28 <glx> and 10m for checkout was also a hint ;)
19:11:01 <glx> someone pulled the plug while downloading
19:16:52 <glx> triggered a re-run, seems better already
19:33:54 <andythenorth> have we mislaid frosch again?
19:33:57 <andythenorth> we should stop doing that
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19:35:03 * andythenorth wants to fire GS events from grf
19:35:35 <andythenorth> lol I just thought of a horrible way
19:36:29 <andythenorth> just use a var with a parameter :P
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19:49:35 <andythenorth> it could be called multiple times in one chain
19:49:40 <andythenorth> which might be advantageous
19:50:10 <andythenorth> the alternatives seem to a special operator (lots of work), or a special callback result (limited)
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19:51:03 <andythenorth> would anybody like to code review my GS to discover why I can't count?
19:52:31 <andythenorth> that should only build the industry if the town doesn't have one
19:53:00 <andythenorth> but sometimes it builds industry in town where one already exists
19:53:46 <andythenorth> it's maybe 1 or 2 towns per game at most
19:54:26 <glx> random industry pop while your counting maybe
19:54:45 <andythenorth> it's game start, I thought it didn't build in first few months
19:54:52 <andythenorth> maybe it's grf building 2 of them, not GS
19:55:20 <andythenorth> nah it's GS, built 2
19:55:23 <andythenorth> can see in the log
19:55:30 <andythenorth> the log is soooo useful
19:55:38 <andythenorth> grf absence of log: -10 points
19:58:40 <glx> your loop line 175 may build more than one industry
19:59:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9474: Add: [Tutorial] show tutorial the first time you join any server https://git.io/JRFtT
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20:04:32 <andythenorth> I need to break the loop
20:09:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9474: Add: [Tutorial] show tutorial the first time you join any server https://git.io/JRFtT
20:10:24 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to break the loop
20:10:29 <andythenorth> maybe I just set a boolean flag
20:11:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9474: Add: [Tutorial] show tutorial the first time you join any server https://git.io/JRFtT
20:11:30 <TrueBrain> meh, english hard, I should just leave it for now and see what people think :)
20:12:48 * andythenorth 50% serious even
20:13:16 <TrueBrain> it does need one, yes :P
20:13:25 <glx> andythenorth: just put a "break;" after you "built" log line
20:13:48 <glx> squirrel is a lot like c++
20:13:54 <andythenorth> probably squirrel has a do/while?
20:14:33 <andythenorth> I never liked while
20:15:00 <andythenorth> all loops scare me :P
20:15:11 <andythenorth> iterators over bounded lists only
20:15:40 <andythenorth> so....I need some way to package my FIRS GS and FIRS :P
20:16:41 <andythenorth> did we make it so we have > 1 GS per game yet?
20:16:45 * andythenorth didn't watch PRs much
20:17:02 <TrueBrain> nice try, nice try :)
20:17:25 <andythenorth> I wonder why we don't have more GS authors
20:17:34 <andythenorth> dunno if it's the docs, or the '1 per game rule'
20:17:44 <andythenorth> or because it's not about painting trains
20:19:32 <TrueBrain> poorly promoted what it can do, few examples and far apart, can't really do what people want to do (game-mechanic-wise), script-usage is dead anyway (also few active AI developers), shall I continue? :P
20:19:47 <andythenorth> you didn't mention trains
20:20:10 <glx> oh and it's not the typical script language used by other games
20:20:47 <andythenorth> it's surprisingly easy if someone here helps
20:21:07 <andythenorth> and you read src
20:21:25 <TrueBrain> glx: yeah ..... still one of my biggest regrets
20:21:29 <TrueBrain> lua would have been the better pick
20:21:33 <TrueBrain> but hindsight is 20/20 :)
20:21:48 <TrueBrain> we were really BUT OOP!!!!!!!!
20:23:20 <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with squirrel as an author
20:23:31 <andythenorth> I could do without declaring var scopes
20:23:38 <andythenorth> but that's just noise
20:23:57 <andythenorth> is the implementation unfortunate?
20:23:59 <TrueBrain> I like the Town Growth GSes
20:24:06 <TrueBrain> but I think that is about as useful (mechanic wise) as you can make it
20:24:16 <TrueBrain> I expected much more events by now
20:24:30 <andythenorth> some of the most gaming fun I have had is playing 7 year cargo goal multiplayer
20:24:34 <andythenorth> over and over again
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20:28:23 <glx> anyway squirrel is not the worst choice
20:28:33 <TrueBrain> that is also true :D
20:28:53 <glx> we have a VM per script, which is very nice
20:28:55 <andythenorth> the one GS rule does stop me doing much with it
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20:29:11 <andythenorth> I have an experimental FIRS GS now
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20:29:20 <TrueBrain> its not a rule, it is a limitation :D
20:29:28 <andythenorth> which does useful stuff like building industries in town, that newgrf has no API for
20:29:50 <TrueBrain> plenty of drafts to resolve the situation ..
20:29:57 <TrueBrain> but for some weird reason we lack active developers :P
20:30:01 <glx> and it's an "arbitrary" limitation because we no way to prevent 2 GS fighting with each other
20:30:17 <andythenorth> we have no way to prevent 2 cargo or industry newgrfs fighting either :)
20:31:03 <glx> but for newgrf the first in the list wins
20:31:32 <andythenorth> frosch had this problem in grf towns spec, multiple grfs might try to change e.g. growth rate
20:31:48 <andythenorth> one just has to win
20:32:09 <andythenorth> there was some idea about reserving resources
20:32:19 <andythenorth> i.e. locks on some API set methods
20:32:27 <andythenorth> but seems a bit bureaucratic
20:32:57 <glx> and one GS can change a setting (and expect it to stay to the new value)
20:32:57 <TrueBrain> no, mostly lack of hands :)
20:33:45 <andythenorth> we were encouraging new devs and contribs for a bit :)
20:33:51 <andythenorth> then stuff happened
20:34:51 <TrueBrain> on one hand we are not very inviting to new people, our bar is really really high .. and that makes it hard for people to keep at it
20:35:09 <TrueBrain> on the other hand all trivial contributions have been done over the years .. most other things need more indepth knowledge of shit
20:36:00 <andythenorth> everything I am proposing recently is brain fuck hard :)
20:38:00 <andythenorth> but we have lots of time
20:38:04 <glx> not that high, but we know we will have to maintain any addition
20:38:49 <andythenorth> FIRS first post Sat Mar 31, 2007
20:38:56 <andythenorth> that's a big chunk of my life
20:39:58 <TrueBrain> glx: I am not saying it is a bad thing btw, but okay, I am willing to remove one "really" :P
21:17:27 <Samu_> join server aka create new company, problem solved!
21:19:25 <Samu_> player leaves server? autoclean solves
21:19:55 <glx> it's better to not create a company if player just wants to check the game
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