IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-05-18
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09:57:25 <andythenorth> yes but I'm a zoom oops
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10:22:34 <peter1138> Amazing, one of the matrix users actually speaks.
10:23:00 <peter1138> Makes a change from mass-reconnects.
10:25:50 <TrueBrain> a combo-breaker, I would say
10:37:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh no, dependabot alerts
10:37:29 <TrueBrain> ooowwwhhhhhnnnoooooo
10:38:41 <TrueBrain> not yet in my mailbox! :P
10:44:16 <TrueBrain> (and sadly, still impossible to see alerts from the full organization .. and as you are lovely vague .. shrug :P)
10:45:32 <TrueBrain> it is so silly you cannot see them all in 1 place
10:45:32 <LordAro> aws-infra & bananas-frontend-web
10:45:37 <TrueBrain> so you fully depend on the email
10:46:56 <TrueBrain> both can wait till end of month, by the looks
10:47:01 <TrueBrain> aws-infra for sure, that is not relevant
10:48:09 <TrueBrain> I have been considering enabling dependabot PRs and mute it via .dorpsgek.yml to this channel
10:50:05 <TrueBrain> just don't really know a good way to mute it via .dorpsgek.yml
12:38:30 <glx> ok GHA are degraded again
12:49:05 <TrueBrain> again, the proper word
13:02:43 <TrueBrain> and it seems they have a hard time fixing it
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13:26:30 <TrueBrain> well, at least I am getting my shot tomorrow .. that is something :P
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13:55:58 <andythenorth> so it's really time to retire irc from my life, at least at work
13:56:11 <andythenorth> Discord convinced me in a way Slack never did
13:56:17 <andythenorth> but I can't use Discord for work
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14:06:26 <TrueBrain> I use Element for IRC :p (via a matrix bridge)
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14:25:52 <andythenorth> TrueBrain as the client? Or the element hosting services?
14:25:59 * andythenorth assumes client but eh
14:35:47 <TrueBrain> it does what it says it does
14:36:22 <TrueBrain> very little more to say about it, as it connects to IRC .. so .. it shows .. IRC messages :P
14:36:25 <TrueBrain> and I can send them too!
14:36:40 <TrueBrain> and I can send files nobody can open .. also a cool ability, I guess :P
14:36:44 <andythenorth> basic requirements fulfilled
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15:39:43 <peter1138> RISC OS OpenTTD is kinda buggy. RGB/BGR mix up to start with.
15:42:18 <peter1138> I turned it off now :/
15:43:22 <andythenorth> I never got my emulator working right
15:43:32 <andythenorth> I could get it as far as some kind of crash
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17:31:37 <Artea> I may test OpenTTD on ReactOS
17:31:48 <Artea> I really need to test that OS again
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18:00:03 * aperezdc uses Matrix both as IRC bridge and at work
18:01:46 <aperezdc> As in: our work chat is self hosted and it's Matrix, running Synapse. I've done the deployment, AMA 🙃
18:04:29 <andythenorth> currently self-hosted irc, want to stop doing that
18:04:36 <andythenorth> bad use of engineering time
18:04:45 <andythenorth> also irc = no inline pictures :P
18:06:07 <aperezdc> The main downsides I would say are that the database can easily be a couple of dozen gigabytes, specially if you federate
18:06:39 <aperezdc> And that one needs more CPU/memory than for running an IRC server
18:06:50 <aperezdc> At least with Synapse
18:07:11 <aperezdc> I haven't tried the new homeservers
18:07:39 <aperezdc> Word has it that Dendrite is considerably lighter on resource usage
18:07:53 <aperezdc> (It's made in Go instead of Python)
18:08:49 <aperezdc> There was also somr newer homeserver in Rust that also looks like going in a good direction
18:09:44 <aperezdc> On the upside, at work we really enjoy being able to participate e.g. on the GNOME and Mozilla communities without needing additional accounts, thanks to federation
18:11:20 <aperezdc> So we've decided a good while ago to deal with it and move the database to a separate machine, and setup a few worker processes to let Synapse take advantage of multiple cores (Python is esentially single thread)
18:11:39 <peter1138> We just use Teams. Nothing to faff about with.
18:12:44 <aperezdc> Without the extra worker processes some operations like joining a big federated room would pin the CPU to 100% usage for several minutes and requests from Element timed out
18:13:44 <milek7> yeah, matrix is just broken
18:14:35 <aperezdc> Well, I would not say broken, but... the protocol is gnarly and complex
18:14:37 <andythenorth> I have zero intent of hosting anything
18:14:45 <andythenorth> and Slack just doesn't appeal
18:14:53 <andythenorth> and Discord won't pass security
18:15:31 <aperezdc> The hosted option should be quite hassle free
18:15:50 <aperezdc> It's what the Mozilla folks are using
18:16:53 <aperezdc> Following up on protocol being gnarly: it tries to do many things and being fully distributed has a cost
18:17:28 <peter1138> I remember when XMPP was going to be the thing.
18:19:00 <aperezdc> Ah, we ran a XMPP server at work before
18:19:01 <aperezdc> On the upside, we have had days when our service kept chugging along even if some of the federated network is down. Rooms don't “belong” to any server, so that's neat
18:19:36 <aperezdc> GTalk killed XMPP after embracing and extending
18:20:43 <aperezdc> Also not having a flagship client with all the neat features has been a reason why people have not adopted XMPP more, I would say
18:22:01 <milek7> I have no idea what matrix/synapse is doing, but performance is ridiculous
18:22:41 <milek7> if it requires multicore server with gigabytes of ram to run chat service, something went wrong
18:23:27 <milek7> (talking about federation here, maybe it works acceptably without it, I didn't check)
18:40:41 <frosch123> sounds like everyone is waiting for truechat
18:41:53 <andythenorth> only if it's hosted for $3-$5 per user per month
18:43:00 <frosch123> can you supply 1000 users?
18:47:51 <andythenorth> but can TB live on $150 / month from me?
18:50:09 <frosch123> well, at least it's probably taxfree then :p
18:56:19 <TrueBrain> no plans of doing a truechat, sorry :) Synapse is awesome and works really well :)
18:56:34 <TrueBrain> well, especially now they changed it so the database doesn't fill up with useless garbage, which is nice :)
18:56:52 <TrueBrain> from what I understand, their hosted solution is also rather robust; but that is second hand information
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19:11:05 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:13:06 <glx> finally validated my "/approve" :)
19:50:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks] TrueBrain opened pull request #15: Add: allow "Upgrade" keyword in commit messages https://git.io/Js2w8
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19:59:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123 / glx : either of you have any problem with ^^ ? :)
20:00:07 <glx> so you don't have to rewrite messages everytime ?
20:00:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks] glx22 approved pull request #15: Add: allow "Upgrade" keyword in commit messages https://git.io/Js2ry
20:01:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks] TrueBrain merged pull request #15: Add: allow "Upgrade" keyword in commit messages https://git.io/Js2w8
20:01:11 <frosch123> ah dependabot... i got a mail about a security vulnerability in one of albert's gamescript (from the coop github account)
20:01:28 <frosch123> probably some docs generator, but funny nevertheless :p
20:01:43 <TrueBrain> it is a good bot :)
20:04:43 <andythenorth> busy bee vulnerable
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20:07:35 <TrueBrain> okay, getting up-to-date via dependabot is really a bad idea :P
20:07:38 <TrueBrain> but I had to try :D
20:17:56 <TrueBrain> okay, other then the mass spam it does at the first run, it is pretty nice
20:18:05 <TrueBrain> you can just tell it: here, I approved, merge it when-ever the CI is happy
20:19:04 <andythenorth> now I need to figure out putting an industry in every town :)
20:19:12 <andythenorth> to display certain registers to the player
20:19:34 <glx> TrueBrain: it will auto merge once CodeQL result are pushed ?
20:20:45 <TrueBrain> yeah .. and it does it best to show a changelog, or otherwise the commits .. for GitHub, BitBucket, GitLab, ...
20:20:54 <TrueBrain> feels a lot better than pyup so far :)
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20:26:59 <TrueBrain> "Workflows triggered by Dependabot on the "push" event run with read-only access. Uploading Code Scanning results requires write access. To use Code Scanning with Dependabot, please ensure you are using the "pull_request" event for this workflow and avoid triggering on the "push" event for Dependabot branches"
20:27:23 <TrueBrain> that happens when dependabot merges :)
20:27:43 <glx> "2 issues were detected with this workflow: git checkout HEAD^2 is no longer necessary. Please remove this step as Code Scanning recommends analyzing the merge commit for best results. Please make sure that every branch in on.pull_request is also in on.push so that Code Scanning can compare pull requests against the state of the base branch."
20:27:44 <TrueBrain> guess we have a lot of repos to fix :P
20:29:41 <glx> I fear a conflict between one requiring pull_request and push, and the other one not wanting push with pull_request
20:30:00 <TrueBrain> yeah ..... those 2 together make very little sense :)
20:31:32 <glx> code scanning needs both, so it can detect changes introduced by PR
20:32:14 <TrueBrain> it is two completely different protections being a contradiction :)
20:32:25 <TrueBrain> they removed a lot of rights from the Dependabot
20:32:30 <TrueBrain> so when he merges, it is with far less permissions
20:33:48 <TrueBrain> lol, it doesn't even trigger a redeployment, as it has no permissions :)
20:33:56 <TrueBrain> so yeah ... auto-merging is not going to work, not really anyway :P
20:34:30 <TrueBrain> "Warning: 1 issue was detected with this workflow: Please make sure that every branch in on.pull_request is also in on.push so that Code Scanning can compare pull requests against the state of the base branch."
20:34:39 <glx> at least it will be easy to manually merge since commit message is accepted
20:35:30 <glx> as it was needed to comment for auto merge anyway ;)
20:36:18 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I guess I should also rename "master" to "main" for TrueWiki
20:38:36 <TrueBrain> also something to consider for all our repositories honestly
20:38:56 <frosch123> call it "true" branch :p
20:39:35 <frosch123> someone needs to rework eints pushing
20:39:49 <frosch123> it's somewhat silly, it does stuff that is already done by the gha
20:40:00 <frosch123> and it makes the branch name important for eints
20:40:27 <frosch123> the eints scripts still think they run in a cron job with a persistent working copy on disk
20:41:02 <TrueBrain> guess the rest of the week will be an administrative one :P
20:42:05 <TrueBrain> but so I guess you agree we should rename master -> main :)
20:42:55 <TrueBrain> will be a shitty job, but what-ever ..
20:43:01 <TrueBrain> (the renaming part)
20:43:17 <frosch123> yep, clicking through all branch protections :p
20:43:25 <TrueBrain> all github workflows
20:43:27 <frosch123> fixing all the scripts, workflows, mostly eints
20:43:41 <frosch123> it affects open PRs? lol
20:44:04 <TrueBrain> GitHub does that for you
20:44:12 <TrueBrain> also the branch protection rules
20:44:14 <glx> I hope github is smart enough to understand the branch rename
20:44:30 <TrueBrain> "Will not update your members' local environments." <- is listed when renaming "master" :D
20:44:56 <TrueBrain> would be freaky if they could change that :P
20:44:57 <TrueBrain> "Your members will have to manually update their local environments. We'll let them know when they visit the repository"
20:46:19 <TrueBrain> as it is really useful
20:47:01 <glx> yeah it's easy to miss a warning in annotations
20:47:46 <TrueBrain> it would also remove the warning that step throws
20:47:57 <TrueBrain> as ironicly, that step doesn't pass the validation :D
20:48:17 <TrueBrain> lol, LordAro found another use of the "mad man" label, I love it :)
20:48:47 <glx> oh it does pass the validation, as the warning are not yet available during the checks
20:49:04 <TrueBrain> yeah, I mean: it wouldn't pass its own validation :)
20:49:08 <TrueBrain> which is just funny :D
20:49:23 <TrueBrain> but I really want to add it to other repos too, and I really do not want to copy/paste that blob every time :P :P
20:49:31 <glx> it's an unfixable issue in the api action
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20:49:52 <TrueBrain> it wasn't a complaints of any kind .. it is just funny :)
20:51:18 <frosch123> i still don't quite understand in what contexts "master" is bad, and why it is bad in git branch context. but ottd source also uses "master grf" and "master language file"
20:51:36 <frosch123> well, and "master server"
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20:51:44 <TrueBrain> the latter is going away anyway :)
20:52:21 <TrueBrain> "The reason for this change should be obvious, but for those that aren't sure, it's to rid the company of any holdover references to slavery and replace them with terms of inclusion that cannot be misconstrued."
20:52:26 <TrueBrain> I love the gatekeeping part of that sentence
20:53:24 <frosch123> sure, but that is too generic for me to understand
20:53:50 <glx> will they also update PATA spec with a similar change ?
20:53:54 <frosch123> in the git branch context, its the "master record", that everything else is replicated from
20:54:03 <frosch123> the same meaning of "master" is in the "master language"
20:54:10 <frosch123> thought argueable eints uses "base language"
20:54:39 <frosch123> so, i guess "base language" also inside ottd source
20:55:33 <frosch123> "master grf" is probably some old term as well. not sure whether it refers to openttd.grf or to the baseset extra grf
20:55:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it has to do with the nuance of it all, imo. A master record implies there is a slave. You might call it a replicate, but often when compared to master this is called a slave
20:55:37 <TrueBrain> master HDD, slave HDD
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20:56:26 <TrueBrain> so this whole shift from master to "anything else" is to break that link
20:57:04 <TrueBrain> so "base language" removes any reference to master/slave in any context
20:57:54 <frosch123> ah, findversion always uses the branchname now
20:58:04 <frosch123> i think we had some version, where it blanked the main branch
20:59:20 <TrueBrain> at least it doesn't say "trunk" :)
20:59:51 <frosch123> eints uses "trunk" until october
21:00:14 <frosch123> so, if you now rename it to main, it has used trunk longer than master
21:01:16 <TrueBrain> "master" branch did imply master/slave
21:03:52 <TrueBrain> if anyone asks about master -> main rename, that twitter thread really says it all :)
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21:04:35 <frosch123> ok, that makes stuff a lot more clear :) i wondered why "master copy" was a problem, but i did not know that git did not use it in that sense
21:06:31 <TrueBrain> what I find really difficult about this all, that I simply never considered any of this to be a problem
21:07:03 <TrueBrain> and that is a me-problem, to be clear
21:07:14 <frosch123> nah, that part is easy once you meet some people :)
21:08:25 <TrueBrain> well, sometimes you need someone to tell you: dude .. this is not okay anymore :P
21:09:09 <LordAro> i would rather get that information from somewhere other than twitter though
21:09:20 <TrueBrain> it is not "information" as such
21:09:25 <TrueBrain> this is not a law or anything :)
21:09:26 <frosch123> i meant stuff like "what, this actually happens to you?"
21:09:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, indeed
21:10:01 <LordAro> twitter is a cesspit of dangerous nonsense
21:10:24 <TrueBrain> this is just a dude explaining really well that people saying the renaming is "bullshit" are on one side of the story
21:10:58 <TrueBrain> being inclusive is never about doing what the majority things is okay :)
21:11:33 <TrueBrain> freaking english ... stop being such an ass :P
21:12:29 <LordAro> sure, but i'd quite like to see the actual minority apparently affected by this saying something
21:12:44 <LordAro> which you don't really see
21:12:56 <LordAro> i did not want to have this conversation
21:13:11 <TrueBrain> yet you started it :)
21:13:39 <frosch123> LordAro: watch more startrek. i heard they made fun of the "problems of the past"
21:16:36 <frosch123> i think, the goal of avoiding troublesome language, is to get rid of "casual/unintended r*", so it's easier to spot and address "intended r*"
21:17:22 <frosch123> and actually, you have it pretty easy in english :p the whole genderstuff is broken in german
21:18:16 <TrueBrain> similar discussions are going on about blacklist/whitelist
21:18:24 <TrueBrain> people saying it is not racist
21:18:34 <TrueBrain> which is fine they don't see it that way .. but it is a hard argument to make
21:18:42 <andythenorth> I have a product that has a whitelist
21:18:43 <TrueBrain> it is just easier to not have the argument, and name it "anything else"
21:18:48 <andythenorth> I really didn't want to
21:18:54 <andythenorth> I researched it about 5 years ago
21:19:07 <andythenorth> I wasn't interested in a conclusion about whether it was a problem
21:19:19 <andythenorth> just how much time would be wasted on whether it might be a problem
21:19:19 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what about black humour?
21:19:39 <TrueBrain> someone on Twitter once went off that we call programming languages based on breast sizes
21:19:47 <TrueBrain> now that did make me laugh :)
21:20:03 <TrueBrain> I never before made that link
21:20:16 <V453000> I just finished writing a nice script in TITS
21:20:17 <frosch123> TrueBrain: actually, zwarte piet is still called like that in german, just the picture no longer shows a human, but something else
21:20:18 <TrueBrain> but I guess, if you zoom in enough ... and only pick those 3 letters ....
21:20:43 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .. I give it 2/3 more years .. but it is a losing battle overhere :)
21:20:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: they forgot B?
21:21:17 <TrueBrain> a friend of mine told me, he is not from around here, that the first time he visited our country around December, he was like: these guys are fucking racists .. omgggggg
21:21:30 <TrueBrain> it is also one of those things .. never evah in my life considered it to be like that
21:21:43 <TrueBrain> still .. hard case to make it is not meant as an insult
21:21:52 <TrueBrain> to dress up like helpers for a white dude .. by making your face .. black ...
21:22:16 <frosch123> glx: B actually exists, it's really a predecessor to C, and it's the reason why == is comparison, and = is assignment: there are more assignments than comparisions, so it saves source code disk space
21:22:49 * andythenorth checked, the product doesn't have a whitelist
21:23:14 <andythenorth> sorted that out about 5 years ago
21:23:26 <TrueBrain> you are ahead of your time :P
21:23:38 <andythenorth> depends who you follow on twitter
21:23:55 <TrueBrain> frosch123: is there "white humor" I now wonder
21:23:58 <andythenorth> I was outrageously behind, according to some circles I follow
21:24:25 <TrueBrain> whitelist/blacklist is an ongoing discussion .. so no, you are not
21:25:09 <TrueBrain> I love mostly that there are complete stories about tracing the words to their roots .. like .. yes, that is the conversation people are trying to have with you :D
21:25:49 <andythenorth> that is the tweet
21:25:56 <andythenorth> oh wrong culture war
21:26:52 <frosch123> TrueBrain: fun fact, there is a children's sport game "who is afraid of the black man". everyone played that as a child, but noone who played it knows the origin of the name.
21:27:06 <TrueBrain> that .. sounds ...... wrong :P
21:27:50 <frosch123> there are theories that it refers to the black death, which would actually make sense for the rules
21:28:04 <frosch123> but noone really knows, and now it's just wtf is this game
21:28:11 <TrueBrain> context is everything :)
21:28:22 <TrueBrain> but sometimes context is not as important as it is to remove the suggestion of a wrong context :)
21:29:18 <frosch123> did you also play that as child?
21:29:41 <TrueBrain> never heard of it either
21:30:01 <TrueBrain> but yeah, that wouldn't fly in 2021 :)
21:30:33 <TrueBrain> everyone the black man captures helps him
21:30:38 <TrueBrain> I understand the black death reference there
21:30:47 <TrueBrain> in that sense, very 2020 :)
21:30:55 <TrueBrain> if corona catches you ...... :D
21:31:13 <TrueBrain> so lets rename it to the Corona game :D
21:31:28 <TrueBrain> WHO IS AFRAID OF THE DUDE WHO HAS CORONA! RUN AAAAWWWWWAAAAYYYYYY
21:31:41 <TrueBrain> or you know .. stay at home ..
21:31:48 <TrueBrain> getting my shot tomorrow, I don't care
21:32:24 <frosch123> well, noone knows the black death reference. generations of not questioning a name resulted in noone knowing what it is about :)
21:32:49 <TrueBrain> just for shit and giggles I am reading about whitelist/blacklist discussions people are having
21:32:54 <TrueBrain> I love the notion that "black" stands for death
21:32:59 <TrueBrain> what most people don't get
21:33:20 <frosch123> yep, sometimes white/black is swapped between funeral and wedding
21:34:05 <TrueBrain> I learnt that the hard way when creating an international website :P
21:34:22 <TrueBrain> Hindu's dress white on funerals
21:34:52 <LordAro> it's always funny watching such people find out the spanish word for 'black'
21:35:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, I mostly love that a lot of chat filters prevent you from saying it
21:35:26 <TrueBrain> or ban you as result
21:35:28 <frosch123> [23:31] <TrueBrain> getting my shot tomorrow, I don't care <- ah, did you find someone pregnant?
21:35:33 <TrueBrain> like ... can I talk my native language please? :)
21:35:52 <TrueBrain> frosch123: sssttttt, she doesn't know yet :P
21:36:34 <andythenorth> I had big henna swastiks on my hands for my wedding
21:36:43 <andythenorth> fortunately I didn't go on honeymoon to germany
21:36:59 <TrueBrain> I kinda like the era we live in
21:37:00 <frosch123> historical swastiks are okay
21:37:13 <TrueBrain> when Google Maps showed buildings being huge swastiks
21:37:16 <TrueBrain> that was a big deal
21:37:22 <TrueBrain> like ... yeah... it is a very natural form
21:37:29 <frosch123> near my hometown there was a church from 1600 something, it had swastikas all over the place
21:38:06 <TrueBrain> parks in the Netherlands had to be redone because on google maps it showed these forms
21:38:13 <TrueBrain> I understand it; still made me giggle
21:38:21 <milek7> hmm, I think I remember that 'black man' game
21:38:29 <Rubidium> in Japan it's the sign for temples, so you'll find it quite often on their maps
21:39:00 * andythenorth is going to sleep
21:39:04 <TrueBrain> sleep well andythenorth
21:39:07 <TrueBrain> have some good dreams
21:39:13 <andythenorth> somehow we have like 200 lines of culture war issues and nobody accidentally crossed a line
21:39:17 <andythenorth> quit whilst ahead
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21:39:40 <TrueBrain> I am trying very hard not to make my usual jokes :P
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21:47:50 <frosch123> level 1 was amazing
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22:06:58 <TrueBrain> LOL @ email in info@
22:07:05 <TrueBrain> "the number ending in <full phone number>"
22:07:09 <TrueBrain> how is that ending in? :P
22:07:25 <TrueBrain> orudge: seems you made it to the next step, gratz
22:08:28 <TrueBrain> LOL @ DNB .. how much do we make in sales? :P Happy it states it is modelled ...
22:10:38 <TrueBrain> orudge: maybe you can see if the CN can be changed to OpenTTD? Dunno if that is possible or not :P
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