IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-03-27
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05:38:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mrjpaxton opened issue #8896: Flatpak: Please include the free OPL3 MIDI SoundFont in "/app/share/sounds/sf2" https://git.io/JY3m1
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08:09:18 <andythenorth> this was very regrettable
08:09:43 <andythenorth> specifically line 8
08:10:24 <andythenorth> that's fucked everything
08:10:59 * andythenorth does discord-type swearing, sorry, unintended
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09:52:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8896: Flatpak: Please include the free OPL3 MIDI SoundFont in "/app/share/sounds/sf2" https://git.io/JY3m1
09:52:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8896: Flatpak: Please include the free OPL3 MIDI SoundFont in "/app/share/sounds/sf2" https://git.io/JY3m1
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10:25:31 <TrueBrain> enabled the twitch countdown for livestream .. hopefully I did it well with the summertime issue tomorrow :P
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12:00:19 <FLHerne> eh, it would be neat to have those things
12:00:20 <TrueBrain> we should have made bingo cards for this .. we now have posts on 2 sides of the spectrums .. "why release it only now, and not sooner" vs "why release it at all because you don't hit any checkmarks on my very-important list"
12:00:58 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: it is not about that :) It is about being aggressive, that we are not allowed on Steam because we don't have any of these :P
12:01:14 <TrueBrain> Also called: gatekeeping :)
12:01:20 <TrueBrain> did I write gatewaying? lol .. oops
12:02:18 <andythenorth> I think I am going to not read steam discussions
12:02:25 <TrueBrain> most are pretty nice
12:02:32 <TrueBrain> just some are as much out there as tt-forums
12:02:44 <FLHerne> I guess the reply is "Exposure to new players, convenient for people who use Steam already and like everything in the same place; also we hope to add some of those things in future"
12:02:56 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: there is no valid reply to such post
12:03:27 <TrueBrain> well, the only reply is: "I am sorry, you are right, we will remove it immediately" :P
12:03:53 <FLHerne> I assume Steam does automatic updates, and gives you the latest version; how does that if you want to play on a server of a different version?
12:04:12 <FLHerne> e.g. for the first week or so after a new release when the servers haven't updated yet
12:04:20 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: strictly seen we could make every version available, Factorio does this for major releases
12:04:30 <TrueBrain> but that is an issue for 1.12, rather than a now issue
12:05:03 <Samu> the obsession with JGR's PP disgusts me
12:05:11 <TrueBrain> the biggest thing to keep in mind with release on such platforms: keep your ambitious in check; keep it small, keep it simple
12:05:27 <TrueBrain> as who knows what a month from now brings :)
12:05:51 <Samu> this is the real game, not JGRs
12:06:01 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that said, it is of course something to track for the next release :)
12:10:51 <TrueBrain> that post just keeps cracking me up :D It is such gatekeeping .. we are not allowed to spend our time how we want, because we don't comply with a list someone else made up :D I dunno why it makes me laugh, but it does :)
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12:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> typically, older versions are offered via the "betas" tab on steam
12:43:46 * andythenorth rage quits blitz
12:43:51 <andythenorth> can't be doing with other people
12:44:10 <andythenorth> MMORGs are not compatible with 'I hate everybody' :)
12:44:26 <andythenorth> although they do seem to attract moronic sociopaths in truckloads
12:45:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain that is just being reasonable
12:45:11 <LordAro> i think you just fed the troll
12:45:18 <andythenorth> I don't like to see people being reasonable
12:45:34 <LordAro> by spending all that time and effort
12:46:06 <andythenorth> is it lunchtime?
12:46:31 * andythenorth has newgrf chores
12:46:36 <andythenorth> can only be faced with lunch
12:46:41 <TrueBrain> LordAro: now we can just redirect to a place whenever this comes up again
12:46:43 <TrueBrain> and that will happen :P
13:00:36 <TrueBrain> did not know you could make such horrible faces with OpenTTD :)
13:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i still dislike opengfx... it looks all washed and dull...
13:02:47 <TrueBrain> feel free to make an alternative set :D
13:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also, driving on left freaks me out
13:14:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain commented on pull request #43: Add: pass upload date to OpenTTD client https://git.io/JYsCc
13:16:36 <andythenorth> so I fell in a newgrf hole
13:16:41 <andythenorth> and need talking off a ledge
13:16:55 <andythenorth> before I push the button
13:16:58 <andythenorth> on some unwise choices
13:17:12 <TrueBrain> what is the worst that can happen? (trying to establish risk here)
13:17:15 <TrueBrain> is the ledge 10cm high?
13:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> don't delete everything.
13:17:23 <TrueBrain> is there a soft pillow below
13:17:46 <TrueBrain> or does this sound too much like work, I annoyed you enough, and you just deleted your work instead?
13:19:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7268: Suggestion: Option not to disclose server information when password-protected https://git.io/fhbLp
13:19:30 <andythenorth> there are 2 unrelated problems tangled together
13:19:45 <andythenorth> 10 years ago I made an unwise choice to adjust the payment rate for pax in FIRS
13:19:49 <andythenorth> compared to default
13:19:56 <andythenorth> I don't know why, they commit is unclear
13:20:10 <andythenorth> this means that FIRS messes up passenger vehicle balancing for all grfs
13:21:00 <andythenorth> also for FIRS 4, the payment rates are adjusted algorithmically as needed (compile time) so that cargos don't overlap on the cargo payment chart in game
13:21:21 <andythenorth> I don't know if I should fix issue 1 or not
13:21:32 <andythenorth> FIRS is so dominant that many vehicle sets might be balanced for it
13:21:43 <TrueBrain> hahaha, you created an issue yourself, impressive :D
13:21:46 <michi_cc> 90% (number made up, but probably not that far off) of all GRFs ever make are unbalanced as hell anyway, so why care?
13:21:47 <andythenorth> and it has been forked to make XIS etc, which will have kept the costs
13:22:06 <andythenorth> if I do fix issue 1, I have to make a decision about issue 2
13:22:16 <andythenorth> is it stupid or not?
13:22:28 <TrueBrain> honestly, I would do what makes your GRF the most worth
13:22:39 <andythenorth> I can't match default game pax rate if the algorithm adjusts it
13:22:43 <TrueBrain> if others depend on your behaviour, that is a problem you cannot address
13:22:54 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD itself is full of this stuff, that we cannot change stuff because it breaks NNNN
13:22:59 <TrueBrain> don't make your GRF part of that ecosystem :)
13:23:24 <michi_cc> Mathematical solution suggestion: Fix pax payment and let the algorithm balance all other cargoes relative to that.
13:23:30 <TrueBrain> and for 2, block a band around pax rate in your algorithm
13:23:40 <TrueBrain> exactly what michi_cc says :D
13:23:51 <andythenorth> I could probably prevent a cargo being adjusted
13:24:16 <andythenorth> the problem shows up in constant reports that Iron Horse doesn't make any more
13:24:28 <andythenorth> because players aren't using FIRS
13:25:22 <andythenorth> I get a lot of balancing requests, but I really don't know how to solve them
13:25:41 <andythenorth> it's very puzzling how to provide a gameplay that is both hard and easy
13:25:49 <andythenorth> which is what players want
13:25:57 <andythenorth> and works for all map sizes
13:26:02 <andythenorth> and all daylengths
13:26:13 <andythenorth> and all eras of the game, when relative speeds vary
13:26:18 <andythenorth> and for cdist or not cdist
13:26:35 <andythenorth> I play test stuff for days sometimes, but then I just get more reports of broken
13:28:24 <_dp_> It's not broken, they're just not using it properly :p
13:28:52 <_dp_> there are so many possible newgrf combinations, they can't possibly all provide perfect gameplay
13:29:35 <andythenorth> I hate all the running cost and payment rate stuff so much
13:29:45 <andythenorth> I would just set it all to 0
13:30:44 <andythenorth> anyway I lost my lolz and am currently considering just deleting a bunch of stuff
13:30:51 <andythenorth> it all seems to be horribly flawed
13:31:22 <andythenorth> I tried playing tanks instead :P
13:31:31 <andythenorth> but the playerbase is horrible on Saturdays
13:31:38 <andythenorth> also Sundays, and Monday-Friday also
13:39:58 <andythenorth> ok I can disable Iron Horse if correct FIRS version is not present
13:42:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7957: Add a flag to read banned users from a defined file instead of from openttd.cfg https://git.io/JvqkN
13:42:36 <TrueBrain> I replied for you LordAro :)
13:43:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, but by disabling it you'll make it harder to use for people who know what they do ;)
13:44:03 <andythenorth> it's just an impossible game though
13:44:14 <andythenorth> the win condition is unreachable
13:44:38 <andythenorth> I already started banning FIRS with other train sets
13:45:15 <andythenorth> the only way to avoid bug reports and feedback is to make a single grf for the entire game experience
13:45:40 <_dp_> why bother? if people think it's broken they can use basecosts/write newgrf/etc to fix
13:46:13 <andythenorth> I don't want to make one-big-grf because the compile time will suck
13:46:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: FIRS is of a size it is close to a "Total Conversion", yes :)
13:46:30 <andythenorth> how enforceable are the dependencies in Bananas?
13:46:44 <TrueBrain> we do not (yet) have negative dependencies
13:46:48 <TrueBrain> which is an excellent idea to add, honestly
13:47:05 <andythenorth> grf can already disable itself if another grf is found (or not found)
13:47:26 <andythenorth> can I also check for the client?
13:47:30 <TrueBrain> I wish I had more time to fix UX of these screens .. so much work to do there :D
13:47:41 * andythenorth wonders how JGRPP reports client version
13:47:46 <andythenorth> FIRS needs to be banned in JGRPP
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13:49:59 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Washed-out and realistic :p
13:50:03 <andythenorth> andythenorth is definitely falling into the "OzTrans Vortex"
13:50:12 <andythenorth> increasingly irrational assertions
13:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a good place to be in
13:50:24 <andythenorth> irritation at any player feedback even if well intended
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13:50:38 <andythenorth> destructive idea of just deleting crap
13:50:58 <andythenorth> insistence that grf can only work together if all made by one person
13:51:02 <andythenorth> where did the lolz go?
13:51:23 <andythenorth> 404: lolz not found
13:51:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's true, honestly
13:51:32 <andythenorth> 503: sense of humour returned an error
13:52:05 <FLHerne> If players want to combine a hundred grfs in a way that makes no sense, let them
13:52:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYs0z
13:52:27 <FLHerne> It might be fun, and they might not care about the problems, and if they do it's their own fault
13:52:57 <FLHerne> Avoiding the most obvious n00b-foot-shooting problems, sure
13:53:09 <TrueBrain> the problem is you have to deal with the bugs they report, because they did something stupid
13:53:21 <TrueBrain> if there was no way to report bugs, that approach would work :)
13:53:39 <FLHerne> But people downloading tons of grfs can sort their own mess out to whatever degree satisfies them
13:59:15 <andythenorth> maybe forum thread will tell me
14:01:25 <glx> tab to align tables is not a good idea (as shown in github diff ;) )
14:01:30 <TrueBrain> you hope someone else can tell you why you did something 10 years ago? :D
14:04:06 <andythenorth> "Rebalanced cargo payment rates for better gameplay"
14:04:20 <andythenorth> thanks andythenorth great explanation
14:04:30 <TrueBrain> past-you is such a dick
14:04:54 <andythenorth> and future me hates me, so they're a dick too
14:05:39 <andythenorth> can't believe nobody complained about this until now
14:05:44 <andythenorth> the payment rate
14:07:24 <andythenorth> which wasn't about what they thought it was
14:07:27 * TrueBrain looks at "maximum map height", and shrugs
14:07:37 <TrueBrain> 10 years is normal :P
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14:08:41 <andythenorth> 10 year bug half-life
14:09:00 <andythenorth> hi supermop_Home
14:10:28 <reldred> Yeah, I had the suburban stations as ‘surburban’ for about ten years and nobody fucking told me
14:11:42 <andythenorth> goes it throw out concept of cost balancing?
14:11:48 <andythenorth> I really can't be arsed to do the following
14:12:05 <andythenorth> 1. delete restaurant cars from Iron Horse (involves a manual revert of sprites)
14:12:14 <andythenorth> 2. reset FIRS pax cost
14:12:20 <andythenorth> 3. reset Iron Horse running costs
14:12:33 <andythenorth> 4. check other grfs I made for similar problems
14:13:49 <andythenorth> is there a defined balance somewhere in the wiki or the code?
14:13:58 <andythenorth> e.g. vehicle profit must be x for specific conditions?
14:14:24 <andythenorth> the high score table calculation must know?
14:16:46 <supermop_Home> you know there isn't
14:17:58 <andythenorth> "5. Accelerated cargo aging makes trains less competitive than other means of transport."
14:18:18 <TrueBrain> isn't one of the win conditions to have all trains profit N amount? :P
14:18:18 * andythenorth just confused by the whole thing TBH
14:18:47 <andythenorth> that's met by winning the other goals, then scrapping all non-compliant vehicles in one rapid set of actions
14:18:52 * andythenorth won the game once
14:18:56 <andythenorth> to see if it could be done
14:19:02 <andythenorth> the goals are easily gamed
14:19:07 <andythenorth> it's a game lol :P
14:19:12 <andythenorth> game can be gamed, shock me
14:19:21 <TrueBrain> rebranding OpenTTD as sandbox and removing all that shit, yes yes? :D
14:19:31 <TrueBrain> I marked it as "sandbox" game on Steam :P
14:19:43 <andythenorth> seriously considering 0 running costs for vehicles
14:19:53 <andythenorth> I hate all the economy stuff
14:20:07 <andythenorth> real economy is tile space and vehicle route contention
14:20:27 <Tulitomaatti> the game kinda becomes a sandbox after one sets up a few coal-powerplant -lines up, at least on most default rules, especially without breakdowns.
14:20:36 <andythenorth> gold and gems are tiles space and avoiding too much congestion
14:20:47 <andythenorth> 'money' are just those stupid tokens you can trade for badges or new camos
14:24:46 <andythenorth> lol did I really set coffee as the highest paying cargo?
14:24:50 <andythenorth> I think that was a private joke
14:25:15 <andythenorth> if I was forced to choose between my daily dose of coffee or crack I'd choose the coffee
14:26:49 <Wolf01> It's useless to get addicted to 2 different drugs ;)
14:29:32 <supermop_Home> coffee-> roaster -> software office or airplane factory
14:29:38 <Wolf01> <Tulitomaatti> the game kinda becomes a sandbox after one sets up a few coal-powerplant -lines up <- yeah I would like to skip even those
14:29:54 <andythenorth> I do need to do something about FIRS payments though
14:30:14 <andythenorth> am releasing 4.0.0 Thursday, so today is the ideal day to make large last minute changes
14:30:49 <TrueBrain> we did it yesterday too :P
14:31:31 <andythenorth> there's always 4.0.1 :P
14:31:35 <andythenorth> common andythenorth pattern
14:32:10 <andythenorth> major version FIRS releases always become a millstone :)
14:32:16 <andythenorth> 2 years or so usually
14:33:27 <andythenorth> ok, yolo changes incoming
14:36:36 <_dp_> fucking irc losing messages :/
14:36:42 <_dp_> <_dp_> what is balance when there is no economy? :p
14:36:42 <_dp_> <_dp_> I'm balancing 1 mil server for a year and it's still shit
14:36:42 <_dp_> <_dp_> and you want some kind of universal balance to exist :p
14:37:24 <andythenorth> no LC and similar players want a universal balance to exist
14:37:31 <andythenorth> and they want me or someone else to provide it
14:38:30 <andythenorth> not sure "no pony" gif quite applies here
14:52:47 <TrueBrain> so they want free labour?
14:59:10 <frosch123> can i mail you my dishes for cleaning?
14:59:37 <TrueBrain> you expect them back? Hmm ...... interesting :D
15:01:40 <_dp_> I... now have a question...
15:01:46 <frosch123> factorio made 3 releases last wednesday :p
15:01:57 <TrueBrain> wow, what broke? :D
15:02:05 <_dp_> if you mail someone your dirty dishes what is weirder, to expect them back or not to?
15:02:13 <TrueBrain> and cleaned or not? :D
15:02:13 <frosch123> no idea, but they have a very andy approach to releases
15:02:58 <frosch123> i thought it was a friendly exchange, i mail you my dishes, you mail me your dishes
15:04:33 <frosch123> "Added mod dependency modifier "~", which marks the mod as required, but doesn't affect mod loading order, so these kind of dependencies can be circular." <- everyone has the same problems :)
15:06:16 <frosch123> ah, the 3 releases were a "commit before tag" issue
15:08:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8894: Replace IConsolePrint*(F)( calls with specific console level calls https://git.io/JYsKZ
15:10:19 <TrueBrain> what are you talking about frosch123 ? :D
15:10:26 <LordAro> TrueBrain: and yes, your comment is better
15:11:36 <frosch123> fun fact: one of the recent translator signups has translation changes between 2007 and 2009
15:11:59 <frosch123> inactive for 12 years :p
15:33:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] supermop commented on pull request #63: Change: Improved infra06.png Monorail and Maglev roof sprites https://git.io/JYsX8
15:50:17 <frosch123> so, we had 93 translator signups in 2020Q4, 40 were active since then
15:51:37 <frosch123> some were a few days after signup, some after the RC reminder
15:53:49 <TrueBrain> LordAro: isn't WARN_FORMAT taking care of the warnings? The function is not defined in the header (so could be static I guess); the other functions all have WARN_FORMAT
15:54:07 <TrueBrain> that is .. worse than I expected
15:54:17 <TrueBrain> guess after signup they were like: holy crap, eeeuuuuhhhhh
15:54:21 <TrueBrain> "over their head" effect?
15:54:41 <frosch123> well, there is also a major percentage of people who never accept their invitation
15:55:16 <TrueBrain> reminds me, we should poke them again, one last time :)
15:55:50 <frosch123> maybe we do a cleanup after a year or so
15:56:11 <frosch123> multiple people were active in svn age, but did not use eints yet
15:56:24 <frosch123> some signed up early, but only became active recently
15:56:47 <frosch123> others may take some time to convert "wanting" into "doing" :p
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16:02:56 <TrueBrain> okay, made a funny post in translators Team :P
16:03:53 <TrueBrain> ooeehh, we get to test /deny? :D :P :P Sorry, trolling :)
16:04:11 <frosch123> our lord tested it before
16:04:27 <TrueBrain> I forgot about that one
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16:07:25 <frosch123> really? 28 new strings?
16:07:34 <TrueBrain> there is a reason I am saying: SORRY
16:08:50 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ah, could be
16:09:10 <TrueBrain> I am not sure about that PR btw .. it is now really weird
16:09:27 <TrueBrain> why can't we have 1 function where with CC_ you control what the colour + prefix is?
16:12:52 <TrueBrain> it now goes via 1 function specific for the log level to another specific for the log level to a generic
16:12:59 <TrueBrain> I guess your suggestion of templates would help
16:13:25 <LordAro> (and also doesn't fix the ERROR: prefix inconsistency :p
16:13:31 <TrueBrain> no, that is still a mess :D
16:14:04 <TrueBrain> personally, I like it more to have IConsolePrint(CC_ERROR over IConsolePrintError
16:14:08 <TrueBrain> just because it makes it easier to change log level
16:14:23 <TrueBrain> but that is a personal preference .. doesn't make the other way wrong :D
16:14:36 <TrueBrain> right, time for dinner, ME HUNGRY! I COULD EAT A WALRUS!
16:39:40 <milek7_> hmm, 'maximum map height' was renamed in most places 'map height limit'
16:39:56 <milek7_> but it seems not in cheat window?
16:40:24 <glx> <frosch123> ah, the 3 releases were a "commit before tag" issue <-- reminds me our only 3 dots release
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17:14:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] perezdidac commented on pull request #43: Add: pass upload date to OpenTTD client https://git.io/JYspp
18:06:27 * andythenorth has not done any FIRS :P
18:06:30 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
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18:34:28 <supermop_Home> did you at least eat?
18:44:18 <andythenorth> had some Pata Negra ham
18:44:27 <andythenorth> some spanish omelette
18:44:33 <andythenorth> some portuges croquettes
18:44:42 <andythenorth> need I continue? o_O
18:46:51 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:57:57 <TrueBrain> wow, that are a lot of translationsin 1 day :D
18:58:24 <supermop_Home> we had a lot of jamon here too
18:58:56 <supermop_Home> had a canarian wine tasting via zoom
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19:28:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYtXE
19:29:18 <LordAro> TrueBrain: there you go
19:29:53 <LordAro> release thoughts - should we stagger them at all? i.e. nml/ogfx/osfx/omsx on days leading up to ottd release? might simplify things
19:30:31 <TrueBrain> if you want those others released too, yeah, you should
19:30:44 <TrueBrain> doing it all at once is error-prune
19:30:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] LordAro approved pull request #58: Fix #49, #51: Correct sprite offsets for toy factory https://git.io/JYGn4
19:30:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8893: Fix #8886: Don't try to resolve folders within tars named '.' https://git.io/JYGnB
19:34:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #195: Add: Ground sprite constants for partially cleared tiles https://git.io/JYfCP
19:35:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #195: Add: Ground sprite constants for partially cleared tiles https://git.io/JYftm
19:36:24 <LordAro> now... what else can we fix?
19:36:42 <LordAro> i played around a bit with the _fio stuff... it quickly spirals into a rabbit hole of a huge amount of codechanges
19:38:00 <LordAro> emergency netsave being the titlegame seems bad
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19:45:26 <LordAro> C:/msys64/home/LordAro/OpenTTD/src/os/windows/win32.cpp:719:64: warning: missing initializer for member '_OSVERSIONINFOEXW::wSuiteMask' [-Wmissing-field-initializers]
19:45:33 <TrueBrain> it sounds like a niche problem tbh, title game as emergency save
19:45:41 <TrueBrain> like, what are the odds anyone runs into it
19:45:46 <TrueBrain> and wants to open the savegame
19:45:50 <LordAro> is this msys specific, or does it also "affect" msvc?
19:45:52 <TrueBrain> it is one of those ... "we will get to it" bugs :P
19:48:36 <TrueBrain> I mean, the old emergency save nobody wants to access anymore at that point anyway
19:48:46 <TrueBrain> so I cannot even come up with a use-case where it matters
19:48:50 <TrueBrain> besides .. "it not looking nice"
19:49:14 <LordAro> what do you mean, nobody wants to access?
19:49:31 <TrueBrain> it is an emergency save while you are joining and the server does something weird
19:49:36 <TrueBrain> so you are joining a server, it disconnects you
19:49:42 <TrueBrain> so what is your usecase of accessing the emergency save?
19:49:46 <TrueBrain> you never have been on the server
19:49:49 <TrueBrain> so that cannot be it
19:50:04 <LordAro> oh, is that the only thing that produces it? i was assuming it was also produced if the server died while you were connected or something
19:50:05 <TrueBrain> and any remaining emergency save from an old server you clearly also no longer have an interest in (as you are joining another server)
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19:50:18 <TrueBrain> only when your client still has the title screen loaded
19:50:23 <TrueBrain> he describes that part pretty well honestly :D
19:50:41 <TrueBrain> it only happens between the game still having the title screen loaded and you downloading the map from the server
20:00:11 <LordAro> in which case... yeah, remove it
20:14:47 <TrueBrain> well, not what I meant, honestly. But it doesn't hurt that it currently overwrites the old emergency in my opinio
20:14:51 <TrueBrain> so we have to fix this properly
20:14:54 <TrueBrain> just .. not with any prio :P
20:17:33 <TrueBrain> the dude that did the english text a while ago wants to give it a spin again
20:17:39 <TrueBrain> I believe we ended with that it was okay what he was doing, right?
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21:56:28 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: The thing about having a style guide and consistent wording/formatting?
22:03:51 <andythenorth> I think FIRS increases pax payment compared to default for reasons
22:03:56 <andythenorth> I think it's because the default rate sucks
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22:09:08 <FLHerne> That seems surprising
22:09:51 <FLHerne> In stock, passengers are easily the most profitable thing to move
22:10:01 <andythenorth> if fully loaded both ways
22:10:07 <FLHerne> I suppose FIRS gives you more control over industries' production rates
22:10:15 <andythenorth> using something like the SH125
22:10:19 * andythenorth has default game open
22:10:22 <FLHerne> So it's easier to create lots of cargo on the routes you want
22:10:44 <FLHerne> which would make passengers less desirable
22:10:47 <andythenorth> the default vehicles are much much cheaper to run than Iron Horse or UKRS etc
22:11:04 <andythenorth> the SH125 is 10x cheaper than the equivalent vehicle in Iron Horse 2
22:11:26 <andythenorth> but the costs are so low that it leaves very small gap between the OP vehicles, and the weaker ones
22:11:51 <FLHerne> I remember that being very noticeable in stock
22:11:54 <andythenorth> so e.g. Dash Diesel is rarely worth using compared to something more powerful
22:11:58 <andythenorth> for very little extra cost
22:12:13 <andythenorth> I remember playing original and trying to make money with DMUs
22:12:17 <FLHerne> There's never a good reason not to buy the fastest, except in the first year or so when you're capital-constrained
22:12:18 <andythenorth> then switching them out
22:12:56 <andythenorth> increasing both the pax payment rate, and the spread of run costs gives more possibilities
22:13:14 <andythenorth> but it leads to spending a lot of time on 'balancing' :x
22:16:05 <_dp_> passengers are only good if towns are at least 1k in size
22:17:59 <andythenorth> I thought it was my job to make grand claims that are obviously wrong?
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22:27:39 <milek7_> not sure if gcc is being overly picky again
22:27:45 <milek7_> but I don't quite understand what ZeroedMemoryAllocator does :P
22:48:02 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: yes, that PR :)
22:48:54 <FLHerne> How did they say? I don't see new activity on it
22:49:12 <TrueBrain> he asked me on Discord first
22:49:25 <FLHerne> IIRC "that PR" was only the first step of even more proposed changes
22:49:41 <TrueBrain> from what I remember, we said: nah, the PR is fine, we were being a bit pedantic, right?
22:49:44 <JGR> milek7_, the Window/ZeroedMemoryAllocator setup implicitly makes use of undefined behaviour, which is why dead store elimination needs to be disabled in the GCC flags.
22:49:47 <FLHerne> But yes, there was consensus that the idea was right
22:49:54 <TrueBrain> he is going to give it another go
22:50:00 <FLHerne> There was nitpicking about the Right Words, a lot of which was my fault
22:50:06 <JGR> It can be made correct by re-arranging the inheritance structure a bit
22:50:11 <TrueBrain> pretty sure too many people jumped in FLHerne :)
22:50:16 <TrueBrain> happens with things everyone knows a bit about :)
22:50:46 <TrueBrain> tnx FLHerne , we will see what he does with the PRs :)
22:52:26 <milek7_> JGR: but why it is doing allocation itself? instead of simple memset 0 in constructor?
22:52:46 <FLHerne> My favourite thing from that was the thing about the manual of style pages
22:53:14 <FLHerne> Wiki was case-sensitive, so both "Manual of Style" and "Manual of style" existed with contradictory advice
22:53:14 <JGR> milek7_, that isn't valid to do because it's not POD, you would overwrite your vtable pointer
22:53:28 <FLHerne> Which is the most absurdly ironic thing ever
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